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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils  (Read 386032 times)

Group: Elite Experimentalist
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Posts: 4162

I changed out the core for another one coming from a flyback transformer
I used 2 different scopes (one ungrounded) to measure input and output voltages, but still the bucking output is low (220mV), no abnormalities seen.
 
Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8kPvZK415w&feature=youtu.be

Next, waiting for new separate (partner) coils for which the distance between them can be varied.


Regards Itsu 
   
Sr. Member
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Posts: 375
@Tinman,

I am sorry you feel this way. In my time, I have seen many hundreds of Videos, many people come forward with good data, to show what?

A Device that runs itself and lights a load...

[youtube]HmYfcgvf6Jc[/youtube]

The first thing that the Critics say is: "Hoax", then "Measurement Error", then after that if they still need to, they claim its already known principals and its borrowing energy from the Power Lines or Local Radio Station.... I am not going down this path! I have seen Akula so many times get slammed against the brick wall of stupidity! No one listens and so many claim they know better!

Before going to Hendershot style device there is something to be understood for everyone:

[youtube]wPfR_y2aAeM[/youtube]
[youtube]pYjREkw1v-A[/youtube]

In the second video you get additional tertiary coils making resonant LC circuit (the caps on the side are 0.001uF 600V) from induced current on secondary coils with the 36V 60W incadescent bulbs.
As my own opinion - when the Lenz force from secondary coils is forced to induce current on the side LC circuit the power consumption drops. The induction from primary cannot reach tertiary coils and they are isolated from primary. When LC circuit goes back on discharge cycle it induces current back on secondary coil which has bulb on. So instead of fully fighting primary coil and saturating its core you have energy recycling part within LC circuit on resonant condition. And it also functions as bucking coils so there is win-win situation... :)
Also the primary coil got my attention in way it is winded with the crossover section. The winding in figure "8" seems interesting from magnetic perspective and how magnetic field gets aligned there.

Cheers!
   
Group: Guest
In the second video you get additional tertiary coils making resonant LC circuit (the caps on the side are 0.001uF 600V) from induced current on secondary coils with the 36V 60W incandescent bulbs.

So T, those two brown components are capacitors correct, not resistors?

And the signal input is a relatively simple DC pulse generator correct?

Looks very easy to replicate with some basic core material.

Thanks for sharing this.   O0
   

Group: Professor
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Posts: 3501
Also the primary coil got my attention in way it is winded with the crossover section. The winding in figure "8" seems interesting from magnetic perspective and how magnetic field gets aligned there.
That's an interesting way to wind but magnetically it is unremarkable.  
The magnetic flux is aligned in the same direction circumferentially along the magnetic path, just like two aiding windings on diametrically opposite legs of the core.
« Last Edit: 2015-01-31, 02:58:13 by verpies »
   

Group: Professor
Hero Member
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Posts: 3501
I used 2 different scopes (one ungrounded)
The Owon is still grounded through the mains neutral wire.
If you want to have a truly ungrounded scope then you must use a 1:1 mains isolation transformer.
   
Group: Guest

Now, its my daughters Birthday today, I am going to spend some time with her and the rest of the family. I am sorry to others that have posted and that I have not responded to yet, I will get to them tomorrow.

Kind Regards

   Chris Sykes - hyiq.org
   To Reach New Horizons!
-------------------------------



[/quote]

Great priority chris!
I am back to home after one week out. I will take some time with my famely and be back on it soon. :)
Thank to all with your great knowledge you male me learn!
   

Group: Elite Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4728


Buy me some coffee
The Owon is still grounded through the mains neutral wire.
If you want to have a truly ungrounded scope then you must use a 1:1 mains isolation transformer.
I tried a mains isolation transformer with mine,and some how the inductive coupling within the isolation transformer still plays havoc-It's not a true isolation as such. I now use a UPS,and run it on batteries only(disconected from the mains),and this has removed any coupling to the neutral in the mains O0


---------------------------
Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   
Group: Guest
I tried a mains isolation transformer with mine,and some how the inductive coupling within the isolation transformer still plays havoc-It's not a true isolation as such. I now use a UPS,and run it on batteries only(disconected from the mains),and this has removed any coupling to the neutral in the mains O0

Good idea Tinman.

I've been relatively lucky with my BK scope.  Just disconnecting the ground pin seems to work well.  This makes the entire chassis float though, so one needs to be careful of that--whatever you connect the probe ground to now puts the whole scope at that potential.
   
Group: Guest
@Matt


You mean CEMF or BEMF don't you?


CEMF/BEMF both terms I try not to use as they are too loosely thrown around. In Motors then they apply and one could apply them here also. We are more so looking at Mutual Inductance if one likes, not so much Self Inductance. So it depends on how one looks at it as to the terminology.


My theory on these sort of devices is that we are creating a transformer that in some respects behaves as a magnetic diode.  The simplest way to know if you may have something is to flip the primary and secondary; pump your source into the secondary and see if it acts like a dead short, where nothing comes out of the primary.  If it does this when reversed, but not when you push power through it normally, you're probably on to something.  I will say from some experience, tuning this kind of device takes some thought in regards to magnetic reluctance--seeing in your mind where the flux would prefer to go.  Then you test and see if you are correct.  It's an iterative process with lots of twists and turns that you will learn a lot from by doing.  When you get the current in the secondary to act like the current flowing in the copper pipe in this video, you'll have it licked:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keMpUaoA3Tg

Think about the part in this video where he keeps flipping the pipe while the magnet falls, holding the magnet inside.  That's what you want.  You provide the change in polarity and the magnet does all the work on the load.


Yes I think this is generally a fairly good description. Good way to approach the learning curve.

However, some of this is not really correct.

For example, all of the negative Effects, the forces that apply against the Velocity of the Magnetic Field moving across a Conductor or the Prime Mover Action in the device in general, we need to find ways to assist in the Action of the Prime Mover!

[youtube]iJsVSMQqCOM[/youtube]

If we want to Push forward, then we need as much Pull from the Action as we need to push, Newtons third Law: "To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction: or the mutual actions of two bodies upon each other are always equal, and directed to contrary parts."

This is true, but introduce a third object to the existing "two bodies" then this can counter balance the initial force!

Do you see where I am going?
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:21:36 by EMJunkie »
   
Group: Guest
@Suudge and ALL

I have a different view about this thing.  I have shown that a pair of coils in series bucking mode will exhibit an induced negative resistance (i.e. a source of energy) if there is a magnetic propagation delay across the gap between the coils.  And for coils wound on cores there will be a delay because the velocity of propagation in the core is significantly lower than light velocity.  So the core itself is the key component that somehow supplies this power.  If you use air cores separated by an air gap there is no anomaly.

The anomalous power will show up if you simply connect a generator to the coils and include a load resistor.  The power into that resistor will be greater than it should be because of the energy supplied by that magnetic arrangement.  However because the induced negative resistor is likely swamped by the coil losses it is difficult to get a handle on what the power would be without that anomalous source.  If it were possible to have coil resistance lower than the induced negative value we would have self-oscillation. :).  So it is not necessary to think about transformers.

IMO EMJ's transformer is just a method of inducing current into that coil arrangement.  The direction of induced current in the secondary is what you would get for a normal transformer.  And that creates flux that causes the primary to draw load current so that the two currents (pri and sec) almost cancel with regard to flux generation.  I say almost because there remains in the primary the small magnetizing current at 90 degrees to the load current and that supplies the working flux needed for the transformer action.  There will also be a current associated with flux leakage, i.e. flux created in the primary that does not get to the secondary.  Because the special magnetic arrangement of the secondary is supplying some power, the in-phase load current in the primary is smaller than it would be otherwise, but there is nothing special about its direction.

EMJ talks about the primary and secondary current providing complete cancellation, but that is wrong, it is only the in-phase currents that do that.  In any transformer there is always a small magnetizing current in the primary at 90 degrees to the load current.  This is not a criticism of EMJ, he has spent years experimenting and discovered something special about bucking coils and is doing his best at explaining what it is.  Had he not started this thread I would not have looked into the theory to discover where the anomaly exists.  What I did could have been done by anyone over the last 100 years or so but no one took the simple step of applying a magnetic delay to the coupling factor in the classical formula for coupled coils.  Had they done so science would have progressed beyond where we are now.

Smudge


Sumdge is right! Once you have the right conditions you can see a "Self Assisted Oscillation" - this still needs to be driven however, the input needs to guide the operating frequency! E.G: Turn off the input and the device can stop.

Sorry for the repeated Video:
[youtube]iJsVSMQqCOM[/youtube]

In the above Video, I took the Magnets out and the same effects were visible! The coils needed to be configured as shown. Loosely! Yes, also moving the coils further away from each other did yield more output on the coils - unfortunately I did not have much room to move as you can see.

This device was not OU! It only exhibited the Concepts.

IMPORTANT: I had to have the load connected on the big coil on the other side or the condition was not apparent on the Partnered Output Coils, I used the term A Vector Coils in the video.

@Itsu: This was the reason for my comment:


This may sound silly and trivial, but would you mind trying something for me, can you turn 20-30 turns of small AWG wire on the end coil, furthest away from the Input, and add a 1K resistor. Adjust the resistor down and see if this helps? maybe lowest say 20 Ohms.


Putting a small load on the input that is not related to the Partnered Output Coils simply just gets the Core moving through Hysteresis! This possibly may be your problem?

I am not an expert, have tried to point this out many times. I am exploring a field that has really very little information! I am still learning every day. I am just showing what has worked for me.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:21:56 by EMJunkie »
   
Group: Guest
@Smudge,

I believe that EMJ has lots of evidence that there is something special about bucking coils and he is absolutely correct there.  I also believe that he has evidence that such coils yield anomalous energy.  I suspect that any measurements he may have showing absolute OU (more out than in) may not have been done correctly, but that doesn't concern me.  His years of experimenting has opened up a legitimate avenue of exploration that must be followed since it offers a route to OU.

My argument is this.  For years it has been accepted fact that magnetic propagation delay, velocity, viscosity, call it what you will, is a cause of loss.  This loss is assumed to go to heat the core.  However as far as I know there has never been any calorific measurements to validate that assumption.  Certainly you can see how that velocity changes the BH loop to create anticlockwise behaviour which represents loss.  And you can think of domain wall movement or domain rotation being slowed by friction, but that is just a concept.  There is no real evidence for where the lost energy goes, and it is quite possible that it dissipates into the virtual particles of space, it disappears into the quantum world.

What is now apparent is the fact that in certain magnetic arrangements the presence of magnetic delay creates energy, not loses energy.  Bucking coils is but one arrangement.  A capacitively loaded transformer is another.  And there could be more.  So it is possible that this energy is transduced in from the virtual particles of space, from the quantum world.  I think that possibility should be actively explored, don't you?  I am grateful to EMJ for revealing this possibility.

Smudge

Thank You!

There really is a lot to learn here! For all, maybe Smudge and Verpies has most of it down already  :)

You will see amazing effects if you keep trying! I promise.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:22:12 by EMJunkie »
   
Group: Guest
@James,

EMJ and All

I was thinking last night as I lie in bed......what I thought were bucking coils, are not bucking coils.  Please follow me on this.

I thought a bucking coil is wound opposite from all the instances I've seen (schematics). This means the turn direction is different, and the linear direction is different.

EMJ's pictures of bucking coils are wound "mirrored". The turn direction is the same, but the linear direction is different.

This confuses me for a few reasons. First, I can't test myself at the moment, so I can't "see" what is happening. Second, the right hand rule is somewhat skewed when a coil is wound "mirrored" at least in my mind.

Is everyone winding their coils for this test in the "mirrored" fashion?

Itsu's reply made me think, this is not CW or CCW winding........these are mirrored windings and they are different, they are all one direction.

Itsu,

Just changing the end the SG is connected to, should change the direction without having to physically flip the coil. It was a suggestion.......not that it will make any difference.

James

Hahaha, I had a giggle when reading this post! Thanks now I know its not just me! Yes, it is not easy to get ones head around these concepts! They are quite confusing, especially for multi layer coils.

How I try to think of this:

1: I imagine the Core as a solid rod and I apply Richard Feynman's Spin to the Core.
2: I take one Coil apply it to the Core and work out its direction of EMF. Right hand rule and assume the Velocity of the A Vector is forward.
3: Then I add the second Coil, the A Vector spin must not Cancel or there is a "Dead Short" At the same time one must make sure the Magnetic Fields Cancel, or the correct term is actually Oppose as Smudge has kindly pointed out.

This helps me! Sometimes I still get it wrong.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:22:28 by EMJunkie »
   
Group: Guest
@James,


Also, I do think it makes a difference. The closer the layer, the more induced magnetic field the winding will give or receive. The first layer is going to have a greater effect than the second and so forth. But all the layers going in the same direction would be optimum......but not on topic at this moment.


I agree, I have always had better results with nicely would coils. More Magnetic Field seems to be the end result.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:22:44 by EMJunkie »
   
Group: Guest
@NerzhDishual

Hi Hyiq,

Sorry,  I have not yet read the entire thread.

A couple of years ago, I had successfully reproduced this JL Naudin experiment:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/bifvsbuk.htm

In this case it was "Partnered Input Coils".
The results were interesting and informative indeed.
But, IMO, this experiment did lead to nothing 'tangible'.

So, your idea of using the partnered ('bucking') coils as output is, IMO, very clever and creative. O0

I would have one idea. As you know, a resonant parallel circuit consumes practically nothing.
This simulation shows this:




The source is giving about 4mA alternative but in the capacitor it flows more than 300mA.
Of course, according to conventional thinking you can do nothing with this.
As soon as you try to "load" the circuit with conventional stuff (a 'normal' trafo for ex),
the effect vanish and Mr Lenz is right. :'(

But, according to your previous experiments, I will bet that it will not be the case with your
"special" trafo!

So my proposed experiment:





Nice! Excellent work!

Well, its not really my idea. Its been around for many years. It may be the case that I might have bought this up so others can start looking into this area of investigation and pointed out experiments that yield some effects that are very extraordinary if those watching have an open mind, but its not new and I cant take the credit for this.

Yes you're exactly right! I have had some good results resonating the input!

Still, the field and frequency are a little harder to adjust with a configuration like this. I suggest to first Experiment, then get the best approximate frequency and then apply this or similar circuits to bring down the input. Very simple once one knows that the rest is working.

Nice post, thanks for the contribution!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:23:12 by EMJunkie »
   
Group: Guest
@ALL,

It is the component of current flowing parallel to solenoid's axis or parallel to toroid's major circumference.
There is even a US5565835 patent dealing with this problem.

I view this "longitudinal currents" as the A Vector Potential that is on the outside of the core.

Verpies, if I am incorrect please correct me.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:23:31 by EMJunkie »
   
Group: Guest
@Chet and ALL

Smudge
Quote
 My gut feeling is we could need some exotic magnetic material like the Metglas that has 106 permeability.
----------------------------------------------------------

perhaps we Place a budget on this so as to get the best possible material To itsu for testing?

Or someone has another suggestion?
thx
Chet

No, not needed and not necessary, in fact I have seen worse results with some Metglass Cores! You don't need to use anything special!

« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:23:49 by EMJunkie »
   
Group: Guest
@Forest,

I bet there is missing something  ??? Something fundamental about Lenz law  ^-^

Can you elaborate?
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:24:18 by EMJunkie »
   
Group: Guest
Smudge quote
Well I have been looking back at measurements taken on a magnetic delay transformer.  Unfortunately these are not my measurements and I do not have the right to publish details, a private company paid for the work and owns the proprietary rights.  But I can tell you that the velocity of magnetic propagation was 3.88x106m/s.  This was a large 3F4 ferrrite ring core (see picture) so if we had one of those we have a starting point for calculations.  I can also admit that this particular core exhibited anomalous results at 14MHz which is within Itsu's measurement capability.  And I have a math model for the 3F4 permeability values real and imaginary so creating spreadsheet simulations is a doddle.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Smudge

I am quite certain we can acquire what we need to move forward
we have members here that will assist financially.and others that are amazing at getting what we need from existing discarded items [Old High end HF test equip might suffice here ?


Respectfully

Chet



 

@ALL - I askyou please, don't over complicate this! Its not needed. No Funding, no "Special" materials, nothing special is needed, salvage old transformers, salvage materials that you can re-use! Its not necessary to go to extraordinary lengths to make this work!

Keep it simple then all can do it!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:24:34 by EMJunkie »
   
Group: Guest
For anyone interested in (a) math modelling of core characteristics or (b) magnetic domain modelling of transformers here is a reduced report with all the proprietary information removed.  Enjoy O0

Smudge

Thanks Smudge!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:24:50 by EMJunkie »
   
Group: Guest
@ALL

Szaxx has pointed out a simple and fundamental concept here! Nice Work Szaxx!

Hi all,
Ignoring any losses from a 'standard' viewpoint, has anyone placed a ring of copper (single turn short circuit) centrally  on the magnetic medium and looked for a delay, aka shaded pole characteristics? It works advantageously in motors, perhaps the delay measurement can be utilised in a phase calculation for a specific frequency to work from.
Just a thought...


Some cores may need some load to get the Core Moving through Hysteresis! See my earlier post:


This may sound silly and trivial, but would you mind trying something for me, can you turn 20-30 turns of small AWG wire on the end coil, furthest away from the Input, and add a 1K resistor. Adjust the resistor down and see if this helps? maybe lowest say 20 Ohms.


Nice Work Szaxx!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:25:05 by EMJunkie »
   
Group: Guest
@James,

Chris,

Unfortunately there are people that try to perpetuate hoaxes. I can show you hundreds on YouTube. There is one guy that does nothing but perpetuate hoaxes on his YouTube channel. Now in the defense of the guy, he never claims anything.......just makes videos (veproject1).

That is one of the problems, people who are dishonest. They make some people think everyone is dishonest.

I didn't say there are no valid people on YouTube, but how do you weed out hoaxes without trying every single experiment?  That would take more than a lifetime.

James

Yes for sure, there are many Hoaxes, I have seen some also. There are also some real devices.

Experiment shows us a path!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:25:25 by EMJunkie »
   
Group: Guest
@Farmhand,

The first thing a sane person says when looking at Akula's video's is. Why is it not possible he is faking it, looks like plenty of room for two "D" cell batteries there, the core piece he uses as a bridge could complete the circuit to charge the capacitors from the pair of hidden batteries. Simple.

We have no reason I can see to suspect anything but a faking. If your not a critic then your open for duping.

When we watch a magician make a bird appear do we immediately believe he created a bird or do we err towards reality and just accept it is a trick without needing to try to "create a bird" ourselves?

..

Another reason why I am not going down this path. You help to prove my point. People will either be drawn to it or not this way, people can make their own decisions!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:25:38 by EMJunkie »
   
Group: Guest
@Itsu,

I changed out the core for another one coming from a flyback transformer
I used 2 different scopes (one ungrounded) to measure input and output voltages, but still the bucking output is low (220mV), no abnormalities seen.
 
Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8kPvZK415w&feature=youtu.be

Next, waiting for new separate (partner) coils for which the distance between them can be varied.


Regards Itsu  

Can you please DC Pulse your Input with 10V

Just via a Fett with good protection Diode and then post Scope shot of Output wave?
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:25:51 by EMJunkie »
   
Group: Guest
@T-1000 and ALL

Before going to Hendershot style device there is something to be understood for everyone:

[youtube]wPfR_y2aAeM[/youtube]
[youtube]pYjREkw1v-A[/youtube]

In the second video you get additional tertiary coils making resonant LC circuit (the caps on the side are 0.001uF 600V) from induced current on secondary coils with the 36V 60W incadescent bulbs.
As my own opinion - when the Lenz force from secondary coils is forced to induce current on the side LC circuit the power consumption drops. The induction from primary cannot reach tertiary coils and they are isolated from primary. When LC circuit goes back on discharge cycle it induces current back on secondary coil which has bulb on. So instead of fully fighting primary coil and saturating its core you have energy recycling part within LC circuit on resonant condition. And it also functions as bucking coils so there is win-win situation... :)
Also the primary coil got my attention in way it is winded with the crossover section. The winding in figure "8" seems interesting from magnetic perspective and how magnetic field gets aligned there.

Cheers!


Youre right! I have prematurely shown a device that is currently out of reach! Apologies all.

T-1000 is correct in pointing out the other device as it also works on the same principals and it also is much simpler and as a result is easier to follow!

I also agree on its operation as T-1000 describes.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:26:06 by EMJunkie »
   
Group: Guest
@Matt and T-1000

So T, those two brown components are capacitors correct, not resistors?

And the signal input is a relatively simple DC pulse generator correct?

Looks very easy to replicate with some basic core material.

Thanks for sharing this.   O0

They could be caps, I personally think that they could also be Resistors, in one video they look like Caps however, as the Time delay in the propagating wave would be delayed too much if it were LC resonant.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:26:22 by EMJunkie »
   
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