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Author Topic: Parametrics, Noise coherence, and Switching  (Read 29216 times)

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Posts: 278
I will definitely try in the near future.
Damn, that was ten years ago.
There was no paper scheme then as well, everything was born immediately from the head.

   
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Could you tell us why you didn't continue, when the effect is supposed to be so extraordinary?


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Posts: 278
I don't know. Probably a fool...
I remember that it all started with the verification of Zubkov's patent.
https://patentdb.ru/patent/2386207
But as always, I do it in my own way, as It is see me it would  better.
But later the understanding came that switching, switching capacitors with the
 help of relays, thyristors, transistors, and anything else is not good.
This not only changes the total capacitance of the capacitor, it also takes some of
the energy along with the disconnected part of the capacitor.
And Zubkov's patent is a fake.
But my construction was different from that, and something really happened.
Unfortunately, it is natural for a person to do illogical things, otherwise he would be a computer.
   
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Posts: 331
Hi Chief,

I appreciate your humility.

Thanks for referencing that patent. I read the English translation but the end, where the diagrams got explained, got cut off.

As with the Barrow paper, he makes no mention of the fact that moving capacitor plates is quite different from switching a capacitor.

I have two of Mandelshtam and Papaleksi's very long papers and have seen no reference to "The increase in amplitudes occurred not only with a decrease in the inductance or capacitance of the circuit, but also with their increase, which contradicted the classical energy theory of [parametric resonance]." I'll take a look again.

I thought it was interesting that his device used a square loop core for the inductor. This would tend to stabilize oscillations but also limit them, as any nonlinearity will do in a parametric circuit.

It's certainly possible to switch a capacitor without taking any energy from it. Or adding any either. But it may not be as easy as it looks.

Why do you say Zubkov's patent is a fake?

It seems a very simple replication could be possible, using two capacitors, one three times higher than the other as Zubkov suggests, an inductor, an opto-isolated switch, and driver.

As long as the switch is truly isolated, any energy in the circuit, besides noise and EMI, is indication that it's worth going further.

Fred

   

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Posts: 278
As with the Barrow paper, he makes no mention of the fact that moving capacitor plates is quite different from switching a capacitor.


Exactly. This is the fundamental difference between high-frequency parametric amplifiers, which are known to work and have been used for many decades.In these amplifiers, the varicap plates "seem to move apart and move apart" doing work against the Coulomb forces and consuming the energy of the RF pump generator.
The difference from all kinds of "patents" with switching part of the cap with using contacts and other things.
I figured this out very well for myself. And how to change the capacitance of the capacitor without affecting the energy that has stored in it at this moment, I do not know yet. Except for one option, when the change in capacitance occurs at the moment when there is zero voltage on it.
   
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...
Unfortunately, it is natural for a person to do illogical things, otherwise he would be a computer.

O0
But be careful not to go overboard by using incantations rather than a soldering iron to make it work!  ;D


...And how to change the capacitance of the capacitor without affecting the energy that has stored in it at this moment, I do not know yet. Except for one option, when the change in capacitance occurs at the moment when there is zero voltage on it.

That's the problem. If two points are at the same potential, they can be connected together by a conductor, or not, it doesn't change the situation. So there would be no effect due to the switch at the moment of switching.
If there is OU, it would therefore be later, but we don't see why changing the switch towards which we direct the energy flow would increase it.

If there is an energy gain, I would rather think that it is a transient effect (abrupt non-linearity) at a time when the voltage is not zero.



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"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   

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Posts: 278
So there would be no effect due to the switch at the moment of switching.

Exactly. In parametric RF amplifiers. The plates "push apart" when there is maximum voltage on them, thus adding energy into the system.
   
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Posts: 331
Hi Chief, F6FLT,

I have much to say about varactor parametric amplifiers but I'm going to think deeply before responding, because I know F6FLT will pounce on any flaw in my reasoning-- that's what he's good for :-)

Fred
   

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Here's what I found. Did you have it?
https://energyscience.ru/download/file.php?id=19249
   
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The term "Self-Excited" oscillations is misleading. The effects of non-linearity on a sine signal, due here to the magnetic iron core, cause components to appear at different frequencies, but their energy is taken from the main signal coming from the generator, it is the generator that "excites" them.



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"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   

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Posts: 278
Perhaps so. So this is different, than Mandelstamm-Papaleksi had.
   
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Perhaps so. So this is different, than Mandelstamm-Papaleksi had.

Not perhaps, surely. Winter-Günther says so: "oscillating circuits containing a closed iron-core coil, which is driven by an exterior sinusoidal EMF, can self-excite additional oscillations whose frequency is not necessarily equal to that of the exterior EMF". This paper is rather academic, it does not invoke any signal from nothing.



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"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
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chief kolbacict

Quote
Exactly. This is the fundamental difference between high-frequency parametric amplifiers, which are known to work and have been used for many decades.In these amplifiers, the varicap plates "seem to move apart and move apart" doing work against the Coulomb forces and consuming the energy of the RF pump generator.
The difference from all kinds of "patents" with switching part of the cap with using contacts and other things.

That's a good example and we need to be conscious of the qualities any given form of energy may have.

For example, I charge two plates with opposite charges and the plates are pushed/pulled together because there is an electric field between them. However if we set the same electric field in oscillation this motion can induce eddy currents in the plates which drives them apart. Similar to the notion that sand or water can be set in oscillation changing the density thus buoyancy of objects immersed in said fluid.

In this respect the qualities and form any given volume of energy takes is important to note. This is never an all or nothing proposition but infinite shades of grey. This is true because forces at play are never a truly uniform gradient. We like to pretend nature is uniform so we can calculate stuff but this is seldom true in reality, reality is messy.

AC


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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   

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However if we set the same electric field in oscillation this motion can induce eddy currents in the plates which drives them apart. Similar to the notion that sand or water can be set in oscillation changing the density thus buoyancy of objects immersed in said fluid.

Only it seems to me that to create this vortex inside the capacitor, it turns out that as much energy will be spent on creating this vortex as it will be at the output. As in the case of parametric transformers, in which the same amount of energy is consumed to change the magnetic permeability of the core material as we have at the output.
But it's still worth considering...
   

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Posts: 278
If the capacitor itself reduced its capacitance with increasing voltage on the plates.
Without resorting to external influences and using energy.
However, there are ceramic dielectrics for capacitors that do this.
The energy in an oscillatory circuit with such a capacitor must increase with each oscillation.
Up to the explosion of the oscillatory circuit. Why isn't this happening?
   
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...
The energy in an oscillatory circuit with such a capacitor must increase with each oscillation.
Up to the explosion of the oscillatory circuit. Why isn't this happening?

The most common cause is that in parametric amplification, the more energy the system stores, the more difficult it becomes to vary the parameter.
For example, the capacity of a varicap is reduced by increasing its inverse voltage. If the variable voltage becomes of the same order of magnitude, or even greater than the voltage that determines the capacitance, the system no longer functions.


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"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   

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Posts: 278
Please tell me, the so-called varicondas, I don’t know how it will be in English, is it possible to find it in your country?
I have a lot of all kinds of radio components from all over the world, but there is not a single one like this.
In the last century there were quite a lot of them, now such radio components have become extremely rare.
   
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Posts: 331
Hi Chief,

This appears to be just the Russian name for a variable capacitor/ varactor/ varicap.

Here's a Russian patent where the term is used, and refers to a variety of different varactors as varicondas...

https://patents.google.com/patent/RU2550090C2/en

I spent a good amount of time reviewing many parametric amplifier patents over the last week, and couldn't eliminate the possibility of excess energy operation.

It's certain that the reverse bias on the varactor does charge it as a capacitor by displacement current, and this charge is mixed with the signal at the initial stage.

And it's also certain that this charge is then carefully isolated from the signal, usually by dissipation in a tank circuit at the pump frequency.  The charge used to change the C is not added to the signal but is wasted. Designers were very careful not to let this the pump energy enter the signal path, since their focus was on lowest noise and distortion possible.

You can see an example of this in the attached patent, which is simpler than most designs. In Fig. 1, the pump energy is sent into the varactor circuit by winding 18 and circulates in loop 1 containing the varactors, not passing beyond node B into the signal tank 10. The pump energy is dissipated in loop 1.

In theory it would be possible to reuse some of the pump energy by reducing extraneous resistance in loop 1 and the pump circuit (for instance resistor 16), paralleling varactors, or more radically, somehow making sure the varactors never see a forward bias, which is the main loss in loop 1.  Then possibly putting a useful load in this loop.

If the pump signal is at twice the frequency of the signal tank 10, then the amplifier becomes a 'degenerate' oscillator, and the signal source can be eliminated and inductors 6a and 6b simplified. Spontaneous oscillations will then form in 10 if the load at node 14 is correct.

Then the question becomes, how much power can the varactors provide at node 14 ? This has a lot to do with the C ratio of the varactors. All previous experiments have been done with varactors with C ratio of .5- 2.5, the range usually used by the parametric amplifier designers-- but the hyperabrupt tuning varactors can have C ratios of as much as 22, over a bias V of for instance 15-30 V.  These type are never used in amplifiers because the signal will of course be highly distorted, but this doesn't matter if we're just trying to get as much power as possible. 

The experiments that Roberto Notte and I did using another patent (from Gunn) did appear to generate excess energy, although it didn't get self running due to some impedance issues. That circuit used varactors with a C ratio of 2.5.

Fred
 
   

Sr. Member
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Posts: 278
This appears to be just the Russian name for a variable capacitor/ varactor/ varicap.

A varicap is usually just a semiconductor diode specially adapted for this purpose.
This capacitor is a capacitor with a special ferroelectric dielectric.
They have really become extremely rare radio components now. :-\
   
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Posts: 331
Hi Chief,

Yes, it's an older type of varactor used in what were called 'reactance amplifiers'. Not based on the depletion layer of a pnp junction, but also requiring much more power to operate, and operating at lower frequency, and much more susceptible to temperature and vibration. There's also been some work done with similar things as a thermodielectric energy harvester. This usage has been known since the 1950s.

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3453.0

Fred
   

Sr. Member
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Posts: 278
There's also been some work done with similar things as a thermodielectric energy harvester. This usage has been known since the 1950s.

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3453.0

Fred
Hi.
By the way, using the heat of the environment is a really working way.
Convert heat into electricity by taking away from the medium at the moments when the ferrocapacitor cools down.
And it doesn't contradict official science. only that engineering and technical  difficult to implement.
At high frequencies. Thermal inertia is a slow thing.
   
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Posts: 331
Hi Chief,

Yes, it works for sure. It's a very general principle of an L or C change due to some effect of the environment. There are all kinds of different versions, both L and C,  using heat, pressure, sunlight, etc.-- but most are low power because of the slow change of parameter.

Light is easiest to use with a PV cell or photodiode whose C changes with light intensity, but you have to chop the light for best results.

It should be possible to generate power from the varying E field of the Earth. At around 300 V per vertical meter, there's plenty of voltage to vary the C of a varicap array. The variations happen over a wide frequency range...

Fred
   

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Posts: 278
but most are low power because of the slow change of parameter.

Unfortunately that's the way it is... :'(
   
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Please tell me, the so-called varicondas, I don’t know how it will be in English, is it possible to find it in your country?
I have a lot of all kinds of radio components from all over the world, but there is not a single one like this.
In the last century there were quite a lot of them, now such radio components have become extremely rare.

Hi Chief,
Do you have a datasheet?

The four-legged component is very strange, I have never come across one in the devices I have collected here and there.

While searching on this subject, I came across this video where a guy talks about this component. But without a translation, it's impossible for me to understand what it's about:
https://www.chipdip.ru/video/id000289209 (at 0:48)



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Hi F6FLT,

Naudin included a data sheet here:  http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/varicond.htm  http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/polcurves.htm
and see another data sheet from this site: http://www.155la3.ru/datafiles/vk2_vk4.pdf

Some more pieces of information from here:  https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B4

A varicond (vari(able) - variable and cond(enser) - capacitor is an electrical capacitor, the capacity of which varies non-linearly within a wide range depending on the voltage applied to its plates.
Variconds use special ceramics that have the properties of a ferroelectric or paraelectric material as an insulator. The dielectric permittivity of such material changes significantly with variations in the strength of the electric
field in which it is located. As the voltage increases, the dielectric constant (and therefore the capacitance of the capacitor) rises to a certain value and then decreases. Variconds are available in capacitance ratings from 10 pF to tenths of a microfarad. The capacitance of variconds can be varied by a factor of 4 to 8. Variconds are used in AC and DC amplifiers, frequency multipliers, voltage regulators and other devices.
The advantages of variconds - high mechanical strength and moisture resistance. The disadvantages are unstable capacity, limited operating frequency and temperature range.


Some more details:  https://ldsound-info.translate.goog/varikond/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl

The inventor turns out from here: http://alexfrolov.narod.ru/varicond.htm 

Gyula
   
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