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Author Topic: Half Coil Syndrome (HCS)  (Read 10798 times)
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A few months ago I posted a youtube entitled Half Coil Syndrome 1, so this thread is about that and all others in the series.

Half Coil Syndrome 1 https://youtu.be/S4hIxATfuU8

posted yesterday
Half Coil Syndrome 2 https://youtu.be/E9UyeZYW6uA

This thread will be locked for now since I will use it to prepare some more info on the subject on the next few pages, then I will unlock it. To bad there is no function that lets a moderator post without it being visible on the recent posts. I could have just reserved the first 10 posts for my present and future needs, but that would put 10 posts on the recent posts section, something I would not think of doing otherwise. hehehe

It is now started for me to open this up as well as I can. There will never be a right moment and yes, I may be totally crazy, disillusioned, misinformed or simply wrong, but from all I can see, this is right on the effect and will help us all make some nicer OU destined toys to play with.

Back soon.

wattsup
« Last Edit: 2015-11-28, 16:08:51 by wattsup »


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February 15th, 2016

OK, since post #1 I have put up some more HCS videos linked below.

Half Coil Syndrome 3  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELto2eCr0PY
Half Coil Syndrome 4  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUdzhN99EYI
Half Coil Syndrome 5  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd3uOi0RVMU
Half Coil Syndrome 6  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL9tmnst28g

I know this is somewhat repetitive. Starting with #6 I will be putting up some more videos showing concrete examples of HCS.

But the point is very simple. Your pulse will never "travel" through the complete windings of a coil. It will always stop half way inside the coil and this is one main reason why most motor windings blow in the center area of the coil.

So whatever you are doing now, if you are pulsing one coil, you will never get OU. You can choose the best core materials, the best wire, the best winding and alltogether you may get close to OU but because of HCS, you will never reach or go above OU. The only way we will ever "publically" reach OU is when we fully understand what is really going on in our coils  above and beyond the Standard methods we have been taught to deploy in our devices.

wattsup
« Last Edit: 2016-02-15, 16:00:02 by wattsup »


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Im guessing as there is now a reply button,the thread is open ?.

What are the last 9 posts about-this post space is reserved?.

Anyway,i found your video quite interesting wattsup,as i never had those sort of results. I have always found that the strongest electric and magnetic field are at the center of a coil.

I did not see this half coil syndrome in my testing?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YFBs7DVqok


Brad


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The use of a tape head as a B field magnetic probe is not a good idea as the gap is so small it acts merely as a gapped inductor, essentially a high pass filter across the probe, allowing the E field to be detected, but not so much the B field.

 In Wattsup's test, he could substitute a shielded inductor  of the same value in place of the tape head, and get the same results as it is the probe tip that is acting as the E field pickup device.

Naturally, the E field will be strongest at the ungrounded or "hot" end of the coil, as the scope probe is referenced to ground, as shown in Wattsup's test.

A small open ended coil as Tinman has shown makes a better B field detector than a tape head, which was designed to pick up only the tiny dipoles across the gap and reject external fields (to some degree), especially if it was the type shielded with mu metal.


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The use of a tape head as a B field magnetic probe is not a good idea as the gap is so small it acts merely as a gapped inductor, essentially a high pass filter across the probe, allowing the E field to be detected, but not so much the B field.

 In Wattsup's test, he could substitute a shielded inductor  of the same value in place of the tape head, and get the same results as it is the probe tip that is acting as the E field pickup device.



A small open ended coil as Tinman has shown makes a better B field detector than a tape head, which was designed to pick up only the tiny dipoles across the gap and reject external fields (to some degree), especially if it was the type shielded with mu metal.

Quote
Naturally, the E field will be strongest at the ungrounded or "hot" end of the coil, as the scope probe is referenced to ground, as shown in Wattsup's test.

In regards to this ION,why didnt i see the same as wattsup showed,as i used a tape head as well,and i also have the common ground?. The magnitude seem to be the same either end for me.
Also,in regards to the E field--are you saying that the E field is greatest at the hot end alway's,or is this only in regards to the test carried out,and what the scope see's due to the common ground?.

Brad


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I agree with Ion, WU is actually seeing the E field.  He could easily make up a small search coil of just a few turns with a twisted pair connection (see image) and insert this into his long coil.  He would soon realize his mistake.

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 author=TinMan link=topic=3206.msg53242#msg53242 date=1448802177

Quote
In regards to this ION,why didnt i see the same as wattsup showed,as i used a tape head as well,and i also have the common ground?. The magnitude seem to be the same either end for me.

Carefully observe the subtle differences in your test vs Wattsup's test and the answer will be apparent.

Quote
Also,in regards to the E field--are you saying that the E field is greatest at the hot end alway's,or is this only in regards to the test carried out,and what the scope see's due to the common ground?.

Brad

Usually to the first part and yes to the second part of the question.

I have some home made B field search coils, a few commercial units, and some expensive B and E field probes I can post some photos of later. Smudge is correct, a few turns with twisted lead wires will do the job, but not have very high output unless the turns are increased. Depends on what frequency and field strength you are sniffing. No such thing as a universal probe, different probes are used for different applications.

ION




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OK let's start this thread already.

The best painters in the world have had years of experience mixing their colors to better understand their final effects which they then apply to their canvas as ART. We, as OUers, in the search of overunity need to rise to that same level of coiling proficiency which means we need to understand all the different facets of coil pulsing, topology, differences of topology to coil pulsing results, where are the bugs, how can they be fixed, etc, etc.

The Half Coil Syndrome (HCS) I am showing is a simple test designed to investigate the actual dispersion of any energy pulsed into a coil and how this coil will respond either air core or cored. Our general method of winding coils is more of a pot luck method where we have this mental image of a coil and then we strive to reproduce it in real life then we start pulsing away to figure out if there are any favorable anomalies that could be taken advantage of. This process is slow, chock full of minuscule checkmates that are very difficult to realize once the coil is made, understanding that a builder could be 5 turns or a coil tap away from some very special results but will never know or learn more about any such new effect.

It is basically for primary coils since this is the main means of driving the coupling to a secondary, or destined for drive coils on rotary magnetic wheels, but I will also be talking about our secondaries and how we can test things to see how better to remove the impress as output.

Hopefully this thread will help is elucidating these effects (and differences of effects) and provide builders with new alternatives to maximize our present coupling challenges

@ION

Thanks for your comments. My bench tests were conducted with many types of pick up coils and under AC or DC pulses and the same result was seen. My decision to stick with the tape head model is because it provides a good sliding surface and it provides the same basis for pointal comparison whereas with a coil it will always depend on the surface area and angle exposed and the area of influence. 

@TinMan

Well my friend I have to thank you for your time and effort in producing your video of your experiments. 

I would have hoped that for a first baseline someone would try the same type of test on the same type of simpler primary coil (air or core) just to corroborate that the effect is in fact real enough to warrant some much closer scrutiny into the effect. But no problem since in your particular coil which is a basic Tesla secondary pulsed as a primary, in the three tests you have generously shown using three types of pickups, a MOT secondary around the primary, a tape head and a small coil with a core. Let me say that in the last two instances we still see the HCS although in your case with such a long primary, we see something new, which will be a great new part of the HCS puzzle.

In your first test with the MOT coil, what I need to ask is if you can please do it again, but this time, set up the MOT so that you can move it further and further away from one end, then from the other. See how far you have to go until you get to half the scope rise you had before when it was sliding on the primary. Why you may ask. Well this will show me the width of the influence of your MOT pick up coil. What I think is happening is the MOT has such a wide receptive angle that when it is on an end, it catches not only the end but up to 1/4 inward or more, so when the MOT is over the end, one side is empty and your reading is lower then when you slide to center which now has both sides extended over the primary so you have maximum then you slide it to full left and it went to the same level as the start. This for me seems very normal of what we see there but this is more like an RMS'ing test and cannot confirm or negate the HCS effect on its own. You would need to use a three turn coil around the primary and slide it for a more pointal reading of the energy spread with such a pick up. But I would suspect you will find again that only half the coil is responsive.

The phase issue could be relevant to the fact that your Tesla coil is usually used as a step up secondary that is being pulsed as a primary hence from the moment the pulse occurs, there is a delay in how fast the low voltage can permeate the wire and raise the current, as you see it all as off phase. When you take off the cap and see the jagged rises, that will be a clue since going up and down makes a delay in the total rise. If you tried a simpler primary, maybe it will go away. hahahaha

One of the reasons I call this a "syndrome" is because we almost have to make a diagnosis in every case, but in general then, call it E field, B field, H field, I just call it "magnetic influence" because for me right now, that's the only real proof on Earth. There is a magnetic influence but we do not know if there is in fact a field involved or not. Leaving it as influence means the cause is and will remain open for years to come. In my case, the cause and effect is due to spin conveyance but regardless, this does not have to hinder the advancement where if there is a positive diagnosis, then we can confirm there is in fact a coil sickness, and now we can work on remedies. Like Dr.Phil says " You can't fix what you don't acknowledge".

For me, the primary coil eats up prime real estate on our cores. Let's say you wind 10 turns of primary on the center of a gaped E core. 5 turns on one side, then continue over the gap with 5 turns on the other side and now you pulse the entire primary. So how is the energy dispersed across the 10 turns? If it suffers from HCS, the first 5 turns will dissipate about 75% and the last 5 turns will dissipate about 25% of the total pulse. If this is the effect you were looking for, great, but chances are it's not. We spend so much time on pulse circuits and so  little time on the actual action in the coil that it seems very counter-productive to do so much, then to abdicate the coil to its own devices. So we need to find ways to increase the punch since losing here is not an option if you are looking for OU. hehehe

One remedy is to add a second (or third in @gotoluc's case) primary coil on a transformer but off the main device and whatever that coil produces as output can be returned to source so very little added overhead. You are basically putting back around 25%, working the device with 75% but now the primary has full dispersion over the core. This is were we need to be to move forward. I'll show a video on this soon.

So what @TinMan showed is it's easy to test these small things in your builds and discover the finer nuances for yourselves.

More soon but if any one has comments please do.

wattsup


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author=TinMan link=topic=3206.msg53242#msg53242 date=1448802177

Carefully observe the subtle differences in your test vs Wattsup's test and the answer will be apparent.


I have some home made B field search coils, a few commercial units, and some expensive B and E field probes I can post some photos of later. Smudge is correct, a few turns with twisted lead wires will do the job, but not have very high output unless the turns are increased. Depends on what frequency and field strength you are sniffing. No such thing as a universal probe, different probes are used for different applications.

ION

Quote
Usually to the first part and yes to the second part of the question.

OK,so here is where the problem lies.
Poynt told me(and many others)that it is the electric field that produces the EMF in the secondary-in this case,my MOT secondary. As the EMF across the secondary is greatest when at the center of my primary,dose this not mean that the E filed is also at it's greatest/largest at the center of the primary?,


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OK,so here is where the problem lies.
Poynt told me(and many others)that it is the electric field that produces the EMF in the secondary-in this case,my MOT secondary. As the EMF across the secondary is greatest when at the center of my primary,dose this not mean that the E filed is also at it's greatest/largest at the center of the primary?,

The two measurements are being made with differing frames of reference. All things are relative.

Hints: If the coil were driven differentialy with respect to ground, what do you think an E field probe with a ground reference would see? What would an H field probe see?
« Last Edit: 2015-11-30, 02:00:35 by ION »


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Naturally, the E field will be strongest at the ungrounded or "hot" end of the coil, as the scope probe is referenced to ground, as shown in Wattsup's test.
Yes, the grounding of the coil and the scope have a major bearing on these results.
Change the grounding of one or the other ...and you change everything.
   
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OK,so here is where the problem lies.
Poynt told me(and many others)that it is the electric field that produces the EMF in the secondary-in this case,my MOT secondary. As the EMF across the secondary is greatest when at the center of my primary,dose this not mean that the E filed is also at it's greatest/largest at the center of the primary?,

Well there are two different E fields here and they have entirely different characteristics.  There is the circular E field that creates the volts per turn in the secondary and that E field comes from the changing flux through the secondary.  That is the E field that Poynt mentioned.  We usually ignore this E field and simply think of voltage being "induced" by the changing flux, but there is this intermediate step involved.  It is the E field that creates the force on the conduction electrons, so we should really say that it is the circular E field that is "induced", then the voltage we measure comes from that. 

The E field that ION referred to is the electric field coming from any conductor that is at a potential different to ground, or the field between two conductors that are at different potentials.  This is known as the Coulomb field.  When dealing with coils driven at high frequencies connected to 'scopes you often get both effects present, and you have to be careful in analysing your results.

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I put another small HCS video to answer more precisely @TinMans' video. It is here....
https://youtu.be/qUdzhN99EYI

OK, I think I am in a position to answer one very important question about Half Coil Syndrome and that is since it is a syndrome, it shows a major fault in how our coils work but it also shows how we as outside observers of a seemingly mundane event can be tricked into thinking that the energy dispersion in the coil is only caused by the pulsed wire length but this winds up being a pretty strong illusion.

In @TinMans' case, he is using a Tesla coil the topology of which is basically a fairly wide cylinder. It seems that the effect of using a wide winding increases the inter turn relationships since each pulsed turn is itself a transmitter and a receiver. A transmitter since the turn being energized undergoes a change in its atomic orientation because of the pulse but at the same time this change is also seen by the other turns thus increasing the other turn nearby that then receive the pulse in their turn and act in their turn as a transmitter and receiver from turn further down.

When this starts at the pulse left side, the MOT pickup is slid over the left side but since this is the start of the pulse it has the  highest impress potential but left of the MOT is empty space without any coil turns so the MOT at left side can only measure the empty left of MOT, under the MOT and the energized right of the MOT.

When the MOT is in the center, it now receives from the left that is the highest impress, under the MOT where it is half and the right of the MOT that has only 25% wire impress but given the diameter of the windings, the actual range of inter-turn impress is still in total higher then when the MOT was on the left. The wide diameter winding of the Tesla coil is the reason it acts like a core, not from wire to core impress or reflection but by the turn to turn wider angular influences of the Tesla coil itself, making the Tesla coil a very special case since it is producing the same illusion of effect as if it was wound on a core. Pretty crazy and I was not expecting to delve into such an effect so soon.

I made a diagram to try and explain this using my own coil on the core as in my video 4 because I realize this will be rather hard to explain in a way that will not generate misunderstandings.

With the tape head , all I am seeing is the actual fine pointal stress at the skin of the wire that starts high on the pulsed side and goes down to nil at the constantly connected side.

But with the blue three turn coil I used as a pick up going all around the coil/core since the pick up coil is greater in diameter then the actual coil/core being pulsed, its angle of pick up influence is increased from a pointal, like with my tape head, to a wide angle thus more of the coil run is influencing the pick up coil. Since the left high side has received the maximum pulse impress up to 75% before the half of the coil winding, when the pick up is over the high side end, it has an open area further to its left that provides no impress to the pick up coil hence the level on the scope is at Low 1. When the pick up is in the center, it now has full coverage over the coil/core receiving the widest angle of influence from the left high side, the center half level, plus now the right low side that also has the core reflection so the output at center is the highest. When we slide the pickup to the right side, this side also has an empty space to its right of now effect so it only has under and to the left of it that is mainly a core reflection and the output shows Low 2 which is lower then Low 1.

OK, not bad. Let's continue when I was using the pick up coil and LED. Why did it turn off in the middle if it's on from both ends. Well the ends have the same explanation as above. Left high side, Right reflection side but now why does the pick up turn off in the middle. This is because of cancellation. Since the pick up is circular laid on the coil/core, when it is in the center it is getting as much influence from the left of center as it is getting from the right of center but they are cancelling out inside the pick up coil. WOW man. Next test is use two such pick ups each on a scope to see their phase relations when they are on each end and the same relation when both are on one side of the center line. This would confirm that cancellation is actually the case. 

OK, all those who understand this, raise your hand. Hmmmmm.
Anyone that can make good animations, raise your hand.

OK, back soon with more.

wattsup





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Hi Wattsup

Try flipping your LED pickup coil so that instead of perpendicular to the windings it is parallel. You should then see max output at the center, going down a bit toward the edges, but then bright again as the  you pick up the curls entering the center of the coil, when the two coils are co-axial.

A scope probe tip alone is a good E field sensor with one problem, it tends to pick up a lot of ambient 50 or 60 Hz. To remedy that when working at higher frequencies you can place a toroidal inductor from tip to ground of the probe. Now the probe tip will reject low frequencies, and you will see more of the HF stuff at the probe tip. The toroid structure provides a shielding action to H field pickup, its inductance now acting as a high pass filter. Pot cores or other shielded inductors will work well for this.

Getting fancy, you could also mount the whole affair in a shielded metal box with with BNC connectors at either end. One end connects directly to your scope with a BNC cable , the other end has a BNC male with a short E field sniffer length of solid wire.
Add a switch to insert a variable capacitor across the inductor and you switch from  wideband to tunable operation.

Various sniffer coils for H field pickup can have BNC connectors for fixing directly to the box, with a switch that disconnects the high pass internal inductor filter.

mmmm Adding a rectifier and a sensitive meter, the device can be made stand alone, completely passive and no ground loops to worry about. My next test tool for the lab? With a little patience I can calibrate the device to give meaningful data.


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The two measurements are being made with differing frames of reference. All things are relative.

Hints: If the coil were driven differentialy with respect to ground, what do you think an E field probe with a ground reference would see? What would an H field probe see?

So how would i go about making an E field and H field detector that i can hook up to my scope?.
Also,are you saying that if i use an isolation transformer that has no ground,but only a change in polarity,and use that to drive my primary,that i would see something different across my secondary on the scope to that if the primary had a common ground?.


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Good question TinMan!  Brings to mind a Sea Story:

In the days of short-wave radio communications where
"fading" or "destructive interference" was a problem we
used different types of antennae to receive signals based
on the E and H field components of the radio wave.  By
using a whip antenna (E field responder) in conjunction
with a loop antenna (H field responder) and feeding the
two inputs into a comparator circuit to select the stronger
signal we could almost completely overcome signal losses
due to fading.



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