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Author Topic: Outline for SS>5U4G supply  (Read 10747 times)
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This is to outline the construction of a Solid State to 5U4G power supply:

These parts may not be optimal but I have decided to work with most of what I have on hand.

This will allow for 180deg phase shift between the plate and filament transformer.
The addition of a phase modulator and a separate filament transformer will allow for testing 0-360deg phase shift between the plate and filament transformer.

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Plate transformer:

Hammond 382X
283 VA
1,000V C.T. @ 230ma.
Bias tap 50v   
Filament #1 - 5V C.T. @ 3A    
Filament #2 - 6.3V C.T. @ 6A
2kv isolation

This will allow for -500v - 0v - +500v to the ss full wave and 5v 3a to the filament.
Because the filament winding is in the same core with the plate coil the only out of phase option on the filament  is 180deg.

Adding a separate filament transformer will allow for 0-360deg phase to plate coil.

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Filament transformer: Option A

TRW N585-A
5V @ 3A
1kv isolation

NOTE: this is not a center tapped transformer - it may need to be

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Filament transformer: Option B

Hammond 266M5
2.5v - 0v - 2.5v+ @ 3a
Center Tapped

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Solid State Rectifier:

T-SSR01
Direct plug-in replacement for 5AR4, 5U4 and 5Y3 rectifier tubes in amplifiers with center tapped secondary power transformer

+ 1 Ceramic Octal 8 Pin Tube EL34 Style Socket

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Tube Rectifier:

RCA 5U4G - Black Plate ,Bottom D Getter

+ 1 Ceramic Octal 8 Pin Tube EL34 Style Socket

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Choke:

Hammond 193M Choke

10H / 300MA / 800V / 63 OHM

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Things I dont know:

Is the  filament transformer 5vac or 5vac center tapped?

If so is the high side taken from the center tap, or from one side of the 5v coil?

How is the output loaded, filter cap , chokes, etc...?

I would assume that it is loaded with a filter cap through a 10H choke and some sort of output load.. power resistor? bulb?

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Quote
I originally got the idea from electron circuits which use vacuum rectifiers like the 5U4 GB or 5AR4 etc. The plate has a high voltage potential with lots of useable power available. You cant get to it or use it for anything without applying a heating voltage to the cathode or what is the cathode potential of the tube. So, you put in a small voltage of 5 volts AC 60 Hz which heats up the cathode and welcomes the electron stream from the plate. Or actually the other way around, but not important for this example of my thoughts. Now the high voltage power goes through the cathode and travels through the coils of the 5 volt transformer along with the 5 volt AC. If the plate voltage is not rectified then it is AC with a potential 60 Hz frequency. That combines with the 5 volt 60 Hz in the coil of the htr transformer and generally amounts to nothing. In fact the power of the 5 volt transformer amounts to nothing. It is an insignificant power supply except when the two transformers get slightly out of phase with each other, or when they are connected in reverse of one another. Then you can measure all kinds of things going on. You can generate all kinds of hash and multiple frequencies, and I do mean all kinds. What I measured during this process was very interesting. All these frequencies occasionally met at the same time with a much larger kick at the output.
Anyway, I have taken a high voltage power supply as follows: 500 v-0-500 v 300 mV plate transformer run it through a full wave silicon circuit then run it through a 5U4 electron tube rectifier. Now you know that the 5U4 requires 5 volts AC at 3 amps for its heater to gather the electrons and complete the circuit. Well, I measured the output from the tube and the result is 500 volts DC at 250 mV. The loss is due to the high impedance of the tube and its limited ability to dissipate more than 250 mA.. The point I wish to make here is that also along with the 500 volt DC is, yes, you guessed it, the 5 volts three amp AC current! They are both completely independent of each other except for some very interesting things I will mention to you some other time.. First of all, obviously you can have several different output components in the power output signal. You can have DC and AC together without any problem.
I was working at a laboratory at the time with much more sophisticated equipment then is available to even most manufacturing companies. I was able to analyses everything coming out of this simple two transformer AC high voltage circuit. In most power supplies there is lots of hash coming out and designers use a .05 or so to short out as much as possible before it gets to the smoothing capacitors. This hash comes from the mains supply and especially from the transformers themselves. Then the smoothing capacitors take out the rest of the multiple frequency hash along with the gigantic 60 Hz ac left in the B+. I became interested in the interaction between the two AC transformers. The interaction can be very reveling, trust me. Also, there is another interesting analogy. We seem to overlook so many things in our society. They are right in our faces but we just look around them without interest at all. When I began to study the effects of multiple frequencies combined together I found out that when you deliberately strive to create the worst case scenario of frequencies you start to get some very measurable kicks. In themselves they are not much. But if you make enough of them fast sendoff, you get a collectible power spike that is more then the power available to begin with. The destructive heating caused by the eddy currents become the problem we face when we make a really large powerful coil. Now you understand more about the heating problem and why using a fan does not work.
« Last Edit: 2010-06-26, 21:42:02 by darkspeed »
   
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« Last Edit: 2010-06-26, 06:21:17 by darkspeed »
   
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Results will go here:

I dont know if it is important for the plate coil and the filament coil to be on the same core for the effect to manifest.

When he said slightly out of phase... i took that as separate cores because you cant get slightly out of phase if they share the same primary and the same core.
« Last Edit: 2010-06-26, 07:06:12 by darkspeed »
   
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Filament is 5vac and has the ouput superimposed  so it  must be floating.

I would suggest a seperate transformer ..or power supply as long as it is completely isolated. pulsed dc might be interesting there.

whatever happens you will wind up with a very clean power supply  ..great move
   
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Quote
When he said slightly out of phase... i took that as separate cores because you cant get slightly out of phase if they share the same primary and the same core.

Hi DS

I tried this out with separate transformers with the ability to adjust o-360 degrees. You can indeed get slightly out of phase with the same core by adding some reactance to either the filament or plate supply.

Also, besides the center tapped filament takeoff, you might want to try takeoff from either end of the filament supply and putting a cap to ground from the opposing end of the filament supply. This will effectively mix the 60Hz filament voltage with the DC output.

Wishing you best of luck and happy hunting.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Thanks ION for the good information..

I wonder how many people have built this?

   

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DS,

I think very few have actually built this. Maybe 4, that I know of.

One point to look for.... Just because a winding is on the same core does not mean it is at 0 or 180 phase relationship to another winding. Most power transformers, of the class you have listed, do not use more modern winding techniques to improve efficiency and minimize use of copper. These may not be wanted for this test anyway.

My opinion on the separate heater transformer.... SM said something about interaction of coils. I take this to mean the wanted effect is int the coils. So, I think the tests should be with one transformer.

But then, I have nothing I could call a 'kick'  :)


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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For the record, here is my breadboard for 5U4 tests circa 2007, included a Variac on the primary, also a lamp for current limit....... should anything want to "runaway".

I tried adding reactance to the filament  or plate leads to produce slight phase shift, also tried separate filament transformer fed from amplifier and stable oscillator.

After many configurations, I was not able to detect any wideband hash or noise. I suspect that:

a) SM used a transformer whose windings may have been loose and allowed for some vibrational interaction

b) SM may have had a gassy 5U4 that acted as a wideband "hash"  generator

c:) I lack the brainpower to figure this out
« Last Edit: 2010-06-26, 19:05:54 by ION »


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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After many configurations, I was not able to detect any wideband hash or noise. I suspect that:


Looks good!

Detect from where? How were you trying to detect the kick?
   
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Detect from where? How were you trying to detect the kick?

I used scope probes in several locations, magnetic probes near the tube and transformers, and good old electrostatic coupling directly to the scope probe (no direct connection).

Today,  occurred to me that a DC load unbalance in the HV secondary could cause some saturation effects of the plate transformer. The core of the transformer may accumulate a net magnetic bias that is pushed and pulled into and out of saturation at 60 or 120 Hz rate or higher, instead of being symmetrically reset. This could cause some spurious effects. I'll have to test this configuration.

I suppose the worst case would be a half wave rectifier. Operating full wave with both plates balances the residual core bias.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Swap your cap and f transformer locations.

Gapped double figure 8 core  B.B

Probe the gap
   
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I used scope probes in several locations, magnetic probes near the tube and transformers, and good old electrostatic coupling directly to the scope probe (no direct connection).

Today,  occurred to me that a DC load unbalance in the HV secondary could cause some saturation effects of the plate transformer. The core of the transformer may accumulate a net magnetic bias that is pushed and pulled into and out of saturation at 60 or 120 Hz rate or higher, instead of being symmetrically reset. This could cause some spurious effects. I'll have to test this configuration.

I suppose the worst case would be a half wave rectifier. Operating full wave with both plates balances the residual core bias.

So you think the core is going magamp (SR) due to an dc bias build up

Would the SS rectifier allow for that to happen?
   

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SM may have been trying to correlate a known condition to the effect he discovered  in his coils.  He stated several times that his remarks were just analogies.  Toward the end of his letter to Lindsay, he even stated that perhaps he had made things worse than if he had said nothing.  I have to agree with him on both accounts.

   
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If you have an isolated filament supply,which, in this case  is also the ht  output. What you drive the filament with is mixed with the rectified dc, and is dependant upon it
The filament is what detirmines the electron flow , much like a grounded grid arrangement .

mixing two sources of electron flow with an electron flow device rather than a slow switch

Is it possible to create a resonance with this? even noise? some sort of secondary emmision I would think

That is the context as I understand it to be as guidance to see the effect that started Steven off.

Edit ..Im a bit off topic here as on one hand you are looking here in this thread to make a clean supply .. on the other hand you want to see effect he described. The two are dependant on each other .
You might need another 5u4 after this supply and play with the filament drive conditions. ..remember this is sitting on the lethal ht rail. 

« Last Edit: 2010-06-27, 02:12:12 by Lindsay »
   
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If you have an isolated filament supply,which, in this case  is also the ht  output. What you drive the filament with is mixed with the rectified dc, and is dependant upon it
The filament is what detirmines the electron flow , much like a grounded grid arrangement .

mixing two sources of electron flow with an electron flow device rather than a slow switch

Is it possible to create a resonance with this? even noise? some sort of secondary emmision I would think

That is the context as I understand it to be as guidance to see the effect that started Steven off.

Edit ..Im a bit off topic here as on one hand you are looking here in this thread to make a clean supply .. on the other hand you want to see effect he described. The two are dependant on each other .
You might need another 5u4 after this supply and play with the filament drive conditions. ..remember this is sitting on the lethal ht rail. 



Actually Im building it as test bench where i can selectively omit or reconfigure components with the most complete version being a clean supply.
For example having the ability to change between internal and external f transformer or bypass the SS rectifier.. to compare configurations.

Thanks for the warning.. good point.. but if the two x-ray transformers and the 250lb capacitors in my lab have not killed me yet hopefully i will survive this..
   
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The saturable core effects I was referring to would be without the solid state rectifier.  The SS rectifier would insure balance by using all of the copper all of the time, as opposed to a center tap 5U4 FW which uses each half of the winding alternately.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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