Bhaskara's Wheel

4Tesla · 2017.03.05, 22:12:14

Has anyone here heard of the Bhaskara's Wheel or tried to build one?

QuoteBhāskara's wheel was invented in 1150 by Bhāskara II, an Indian mathematician, in an attempt to create a perpetual motion machine. The wheel consisted of curved or tilted spokes partially filled with mercury. Once in motion, the mercury would flow from one side of the spoke to another, thus forcing the wheel to continue motion.

Possible keys to getting it to work:

Must use salt water
Wheel must be balanced
Wheel must have good bearings

Possible working replicas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50Aag0J0Qe4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePH6vkqAeB4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KqOwJKWIAw

Grumage · 2017.03.05, 22:49:23

Dear 4 Tesla.

Member sm0 ky2 did a full build over at OU.Com a few weeks back. Unsuccessful.....

Kind regards, Graham.

4Tesla · 2017.03.06, 00:00:11

Just looked over there.. No photos of completed wheel. In the first video, it is a newer video with audio and runs over five minutes. Seems like it would be difficult to fake, but not impossible (such as fake sound track). In the next video he makes he should put a clock in the background so we know the video isn't looped.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50Aag0J0Qe4

TinselKoala · 2017.03.06, 02:54:31

Oh please. Stop with the nonsense already! I thought this was supposed to be a scientific forum. But lately I see people being suckered into wasting time and energy on these obvious hoaxes. This is not "Energetic Forum" ffs.

Difficult to fake? Come on, I know kids in the eighth grade who could put together this fake, including making ten minute YT videos of it, in an afternoon. And so does Chet.

https://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/overbal.htm

4Tesla · 2017.03.06, 04:23:36

Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.03.06, 02:54:31
Oh please. Stop with the nonsense already! I thought this was supposed to be a scientific forum. But lately I see people being suckered into wasting time and energy on these obvious hoaxes. This is not "Energetic Forum" ffs.

Difficult to fake? Come on, I know kids in the eighth grade who could put together this fake, including making ten minute YT videos of it, in an afternoon. And so does Chet.

https://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/overbal.htm

You sure know how to make one feel stupid. Nice guy you are.

TinselKoala · 2017.03.06, 04:38:34

Quote from: 4Tesla on 2017.03.06, 04:23:36
You sure know how to make one feel stupid. Nice guy you are.

"Must use salt water"

Yeah, I'm a nice guy actually, but I have less and less tolerance for bullshit lately. I spend valuable hours of my life trying to get people to stop focussing on hoaxes and wasting their time on impossibilities. If you don't agree with me or think I'm wrong, you are certainly free to spend your time and creative energy and money building gravity wheels, magnet motors or any other thing you want. Don't let little old me stop you by using facts and actual calculations! Be sure to report on your work, including the time and money you spend. I'll be looking forward to seeing your videos !

(Does the salt water have to be ocean water dyed black, or is it OK to just dissolve some table salt in some tap water? Be sure to explore this in your experimentation.)

4Tesla · 2017.03.06, 05:24:47

They added table or epsom salt.

TinselKoala · 2017.03.06, 06:23:19

Well, Chet already has the bike wheel set up on a stand. All he needs now is to tie-wrap some fizzy drink bottles to it and half-fill them with foot-soak solution. Being careful, of course, to use the same amount of liquid in each bottle and to mount the bottles symmetrically and evenly around the rim.

Here's what I predict he will find:
1) The wheel is actually never overbalanced, and
2) The sloshing around of the liquid is actually an energy-loss mechanism, and
3) It will not turn without being pushed, and
4) It can turn for a quite a while on a single push, since it is on a good bearing system, is heavy, and is well-balanced, and
5) It will make no difference whether pure water, salt water, sea water, Epsom solution, or Coca-Cola is used.
6) Once the wheel is built, it will be easy to make it turn with a jet of compressed air from off-camera, or by using a drive line (fishing line, dental floss, thread, etc) invisible to the camera.

--Although right now, Chet may want to use antifreeze solution instead.....

Please, go ahead and Prove Me Wrong (tm TKLabs).

TinselKoala · 2017.03.06, 06:36:06

As far as these videos go:

QuotePossible working replicas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50Aag0J0Qe4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePH6vkqAeB4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KqOwJKWIAw

1. This is a hoax, probably driven by a compressed air blast from off camera. Don't be fooled by the soundtrack. See this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwOblAnQnh4

2. If the wheel is truly overbalanced, why does it just sit there in perfect equilibrium until it is given a push? It should be impossible for it to remain still unless it is restrained by a stop or brake, which this one clearly does not have. Therefore it is not really overbalanced at all, in fact it is quite well balanced and deliberately so. And see the top comment by Luc ! This one is also driven by air blast from off-camera.

3. Veproject !!

4Tesla · 2017.03.06, 07:19:45

Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.03.06, 06:36:06
If the wheel is truly overbalanced, why does it just sit there in perfect equilibrium until it is given a push? It should be impossible for it to remain still unless it is restrained by a stop or brake, which this one clearly does not have. Therefore it is not really overbalanced at all, in fact it is quite well balanced and deliberately so. And see the top comment by Luc ! This one is also driven by air blast from off-camera.

Could it be the force of the water sliding down the tube that makes it go, rather than just the weight? Like a water wheel, except the water is recycled.

Grumage · 2017.03.06, 11:30:18

For what it's worth...

The first illustration shows chambers with curvature, not one replication has this implemented.

I'm trying to find a short video of the Mythbusters demonstrating 3 balls on different inclined ramps, the ball on the straight ramp took longer to reach the end than one of the curved ones.

An open question, is this something that could be " simulated " like electronic circuits can?

Cheers Graham.

Chet K · 2017.03.06, 12:03:53

Smokey already played with the wheel in this topic ,he was unable to get it sorted and said basically the math wasn't working [agreeing with Tinsel
I will be playing with the Gwandau wheel from OU.com [image below] as well as Nitinol and similar SMA'S [Shape metal alloys] or memory polymers
and then some low energy Phase change gasses [expanding contracting cylinders] even gasses reacting to small charges.
and dare I say it ??
magnets too . [all on the same test bed]

Polymer wheel example here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQqpnAKf9cM

as some here know I make things for children with Disabilities [Autism and other] to help them and their families cope with issues brought about by there special needs.
some of the children have minds which completely baffle me [gifted Savants ] .

getting a wheel in front of a gifted child to teach.....
you just never know....

I was not ready to start a thread yet
since the thread is here I will post a few links later

PS
Grum
that Too

Grumage · 2017.03.06, 13:04:15

Hi Chet.

You'll have to be careful those boats might have my stuff onboard!

I tried something last year....

I had a four foot long piece of 1" box section Steel pivoted like a seesaw ( teeter totter ) I welded a bicycle wheel nut into the one end so the wheel could rotate smoothly at right angles to the pivoted arm.

On the rim of the wheel I placed a single heavy lump of Cast Iron. Now starting with the weight at TDC, I let the wheel fall by gravity at the same time raising and lowering the arm. I was, with a little practice, able to accelerate the wheel and keep it going. There seemed to be little effort, on my part to do this.

Hmm, in retrospect I might not have had the arm equally pivoted, might have had more material beyond the pivot to counterbalance the wheel. Anyway it was interesting, Mikes " Skinner " device springs to mind.

Cheers Graham.

TinselKoala · 2017.03.06, 16:33:32

Quote from: 4Tesla on 2017.03.06, 07:19:45
Could it be the force of the water sliding down the tube that makes it go, rather than just the weight? Like a water wheel, except the water is recycled.

So it won't turn unless it is given a starting push to get the water sloshing around? It's something that could be tested easily. I'm sure Chet will let us know.

No, the water movement creates losses, it doesn't help the thing to turn. This can be tested too, by replacing the water with jello, letting it set up solid, and then applying a known, repeatable starting impulse to the wheel. It will take it longer to come to a stop than the wheel with liquid water in it, weighing the same and given the same starting impulse.

Chet K · 2017.03.06, 18:41:46

Grum
Can you post more on this ?

Tinsel
what about tubes with Mercury ? and magnetic or Diamagnetic experiments {bhaskara wheel ] even incorporating a Charge into the mix [this is one on my Bucket list ]?

also do you remember the Jack Abeling wheel ? that is one I am toying with while I wait on the Nitinol choice [Smokey is helping with the best
Nitinol product for these experiments ??]

I will look for the Abeling Link

Also wanting to make a copper pickup rail on the wheel with magnets to assist in Output measurements and also to teach the Kids about induction .

all thoughts and comments welcomed

Grumage · 2017.03.06, 19:04:22

Hi Chet.

Soon...

Re the Mythbusters video...

https://g.redditmedia.com/38JdktCesJgFznNz6_tjW-e3xE0bkQlupb_QF70Amgc.gif?w=720&fm=mp4&mp4-fragmented=false&s=229a193353dcbbbe4983f7c45ac7b78e

TinselKoala · 2017.03.07, 05:36:35

Quote from: Chet K on 2017.03.06, 18:41:46
Grum
Can you post more on this ?

Tinsel
what about tubes with Mercury ? and magnetic or Diamagnetic experiments {bhaskara wheel ] even incorporating a Charge into the mix [this is one on my Bucket list ]?

also do you remember the Jack Abeling wheel ? that is one I am toying with while I wait on the Nitinol choice [Smokey is helping with the best
Nitinol product for these experiments ??]

I will look for the Abeling Link

Also wanting to make a copper pickup rail on the wheel with magnets to assist in Output measurements and also to teach the Kids about induction .

all thoughts and comments welcomed

Mercury (dissolved salt, foot-soak, etc) : From a given starting RPM, a heavier wheel will of course spin longer before stopping than a lighter wheel will. This has fooled a lot of people working with gravity wheels and magnet wheels etc. "If I just make it heavy enough it will surely keep on turning, see how it turns longer and longer as I add weight." But this (same starting RPM) is the wrong way to test this; the experimenter must be able to supply the same starting impulse or energy, which will result in different start RPMs as the weight (rotational inertia) is varied. My videos on the Mondrasek magnet-assisted gravity wheel illustrate an easy way to supply a repeatable starting impulse to a wheel. There are also other valid ways of equalizing start energy for testing wheels.

Any wheel design (almost) can be made to turn if you supply a source of power and couple that power to the wheel properly. Nitinol, for example, requires cycling between hot and cold temperatures to flex in a cycle, and there are many ways that a Nitinol shape can be coupled to a wheel to make it rotate. But you have to supply the heat energy it is going to run on. My favorite Nitinol application is a stage magician's trick: the Bent Nail. It is made of Nitinol and when warmed by rubbing in the hand, it becomes straight. "Oh look, I found a bent nail on the ground. I'll bet I can straighten it with my mind, Uri-Geller-Style. Wanna bet a cheezburger?"

Nitinol is also used for such things as automatic sun-shutters, solar tracking PV arrays, etc. Here the source of heat energy is solar, or waste heat from industrial processes. No free lunch in sight (unless you fool people with the Bent Nail trick.)

As far as heat engines go, I prefer Stirling. Used to be you could buy a Stirling cycle fan that you set on top of your pot-bellied wood stove. It ran on the heat difference between the stovetop and the room air, and the fan blew the hot air from the stove around the room. I have a design in my head of a free-piston Stirling cycle alternator/generator that would be a neat thing to see... but I need my tools to build it. Only one moving part!

We've seen in Grum's work how to make a wheel spin with application of a charge (strictly speaking, a charge differential, aka potential aka voltage) to charge carriers on the wheel. At you-know-where I had a horizontal bike wheel with a bunch of bronze spheres mounted (insulated) all around it, and I was able to get it to spin at a potential of only around 500-600 volts, which amazed us all (and caused no end of difficulty because that was not the source of thrust we wanted to see ... )
Still the same old story: the power to turn the wheel has to come from somewhere, and it can't come from gravity alone, PMs alone, etc. as they are only storage mechanisms, not sources.

Good luck with your Abeling wheel, be sure to make a recording, I don't want to hear stories of "it just took off, slipped the mount and went right through the garage door, and the last time I saw it, it was two blocks away and accelerating..."

Verpies · 2017.03.07, 17:15:26

Quote from: Grumage on 2017.03.06, 11:30:18
I'm trying to find a short video of the Mythbusters demonstrating 3 balls on different inclined ramps, the ball on the straight ramp took longer to reach the end than one of the curved ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skvnj67YGmw

Grumage · 2017.03.07, 19:50:19

Quote from: verpies on 2017.03.07, 17:15:26
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skvnj67YGmw

Thanks Verpies.

Does anyone see the similarities in the very top illustration to The Brachistochrone ?

Cheers Graham.

Chet K · 2017.03.07, 20:50:50

Grum
inline with antigravity discussion LGE [liquid gravity engine]

start at 1:16 for meat [short Vid ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezXx-Hzj3tc

Grumage · 2017.03.08, 16:28:54

Dear All.

I've been thinking about this project, any replication MUST employ the curvature that the original inventor had envisaged. There's good reason, as the volume of the Mercury changes constantly.

It wouldn't be too difficult to build IMO. The hollow spokes could be cut into a disc of Polycarbonate sheet sandwiched between two plain discs, fully sealed then filled with Mercury.

Once again....... Is anyone able to do a simulation of this experiment?

Cheers Graham.

T-1000 · 2017.03.08, 17:01:05

I would like also to leave my input on this.

The wheel design implies 2 radius circles where outer circle is being used on one side and inner circle is used when not in action. The idea of having higher leverage force when gravity attract objects in outer circle was about creating rotating force.
But because gravity do not disappear when the object is in the bottom it still stays in outer circle. Which neglects force being created when object is moving downwards and makes such design not working.
So if you focus how to make object to be on inner circle when it is on wheel bottom (with the help of switched magnetism/etc) and be on outer circle only where movement force have to be created this wheel may come to life some day..

Cheers!

Grumage · 2017.03.08, 17:42:13

Quote from: Grumage on 2017.03.06, 13:04:15
Hi Chet.

I tried something last year....

I had a four foot long piece of 1" box section Steel pivoted like a seesaw ( teeter totter ) I welded a bicycle wheel nut into the one end so the wheel could rotate smoothly at right angles to the pivoted arm.

On the rim of the wheel I placed a single heavy lump of Cast Iron. Now starting with the weight at TDC, I let the wheel fall by gravity at the same time raising and lowering the arm. I was, with a little practice, able to accelerate the wheel and keep it going. There seemed to be little effort, on my part to do this.

Hmm, in retrospect I might not have had the arm equally pivoted, might have had more material beyond the pivot to counterbalance the wheel. Anyway it was interesting, Mikes " Skinner " device springs to mind.

Cheers Graham.

Hi Chet,

Drawing attached as requested.

I wanted to see, physically, how far a single weight attached to a wheel would rotate the wheel. In fact, from TDC the weight reaches 11 o'clock, not bad.

By altering the plane of the wheel as the weight climbs back you can then get it over the next cycle.... by rocking the counterbalance acceleration was achieved .

Cheers Graham.

Chet K · 2017.03.08, 17:56:42

T1000
yes the moment when it all comes together

@Grum
thanks
I understand now .

shouldn't be hard to model [will make it small

another kids bike to the Slaughter...

[member Helmut at OU.com would always say this when he was chopping up a good microwave for experiments.
"another microwave to the slaughter " [his wife musta luved that ....

On your image
it would seem a big "mr.Hand" input.. however it needs looking at ? [your mentioning speeds up and cycles??
will see... and thank you for the opportunity.
I also want to play with that Small lollypop at 12 oclock satellite "slap" effect I mentioned.
Member Smokey had a runner years ago with a satellite configuration [it broke and he never could get it quite right
it used magnets too [T1000's mention

thx
Chet

TinselKoala · 2017.03.08, 21:31:43

Quote from: Grumage on 2017.03.08, 16:28:54
Dear All.

I've been thinking about this project, any replication MUST employ the curvature that the original inventor had envisaged. There's good reason, as the volume of the Mercury changes constantly.

It wouldn't be too difficult to build IMO. The hollow spokes could be cut into a disc of Polycarbonate sheet sandwiched between two plain discs, fully sealed then filled with Mercury.

Once again....... Is anyone able to do a simulation of this experiment?

Cheers Graham.

Please explain how "the volume of the Mercury changes constantly".