Hidden Ferromagnetic Energy Release

[Peterae]

As a matter of interest, if you had superconducting wire the only energy input to your 270uH inductor at 1 amp would be its 1/2Li2 of 135 micro Joules.  If your coil held the flux constant while the inductance reduced, the current would increase by a factor of 2000 (the core mu).  The 1/2Li2 energy now stored in the lower value (air cored) inductor would be 0.27 Joules.  That's an apparent COP of 2000, but what is not known is what will be the energy effect on the heat input/output/storage.

Interesting thanks Smudge it's nice to see some calculations to go with the experiment.
Now i know the temperature is nice and low for the curie point i would say i dont need to worry about the heat proof insulation and can use enamelled on it's own, now what we need is a trade off between higher numbers of turns and wire thickness.

The 135uV presumably is calculated for the 1.1Ohm resistor, if so then that would mean the current is only 122uA, this means we could increase the resistance value to increase resolution and decrease the wire thickness a lot to get more turns?

Scope was set to DC anyway.

[Smudge]

The 135uV presumably is calculated for the 1.1Ohm resistor, if so then that would mean the current is only 122uA, this means we could increase the resistance value to increase resolution and decrease the wire thickness a lot to get more turns?

No the voltage just came from V=-i*dL/dt.  It assumes that i comes from a current source that is high impedance so I suggested using your 100V supply (set to 100V) and a 100 Ohm series resistor.  (Bench supplies set to a current limit are not IMO true high impedance current sources, they are simply low impedance voltage sources that control the voltage against the chosen current reference set by the current limit control).  You would look for the 135uV across the primary winding carrying that 1 amp current, or across the secondary that is open circuit.  The idea is to get some definite data to start the ball rolling.  IMO we won't get anything near the effect of a superconducting shorted turn and we have to move ahead in stages, the first stage is actually seeing something to work with.
Smudge

[Peterae]

OK i can give it a go but the winding with the 1.1 ohm resistance is showing mv's of noise so i am not sure how i am going to be able to see uV of pulse, unless the primary does not have this noise, i suspect the noise is probably coming from the scope front end.

[Smudge]

It might be coming from your PSU set to current limit at 1 amp, does the current limiter create noise?  Maybe using 100V with no current limit and dropped via a 100 Ohm resistor and the noise will be less.
Smudge

[Peterae]

Just to clarify for this new test i can ditch the 1.1Ohm load on the secondary and leave the secondary open circuit.
I will certainly give it a go anyway.

Would i be correct in saying that when the core is below the curie point the magnetic field is contained within the core material, but above the core curie temperature the field expands to the surrounding space as well.
If so would the expansion field speed be slow as the temperature increases through the curie point or would there be an instant where the expansion field speed could be large, i am wondering what the expansion field may look like and whether it would be possible to induce a current in a piece of wire aligned such to detect the expansion, if we could oscillate the temperature between the below and above the curie point using only small amounts of energy we maybe able to collect the resulting field expansion with many pieces of wire.

[TinMan]

Just to clarify for this new test i can ditch the 1.1Ohm load on the secondary and leave the secondary open circuit.
I will certainly give it a go anyway.

Would i be correct in saying that when the core is below the curie point the magnetic field is contained within the core material, but above the core curie temperature the field expands to the surrounding space as well.
If so would the expansion field speed be slow as the temperature increases through the curie point or would there be an instant where the expansion field speed could be large, i am wondering what the expansion field may look like and whether it would be possible to induce a current in a piece of wire aligned such to detect the expansion, if we could oscillate the temperature between the below and above the curie point using only small amounts of energy we maybe able to collect the resulting field expansion with many pieces of wire.

I was thinking about this some time back Peter.

Rather than trying to raise and lower core temperatures,would it not be easier and more efficient to move the core in and out of a secondary coil,where the primary coil remains fixed to the core.

This would create an AC in the secondary,while the primary is supplied with a DC.

The inductance value of both coils would change throughout each cycle.

Just a thought.

Brad

[forest]

I was thinking about this some time back Peter.

Rather than trying to raise and lower core temperatures,would it not be easier and more efficient to move the core in and out of a secondary coil,where the primary coil remains fixed to the core.

This would create an AC in the secondary,while the primary is supplied with a DC.

The inductance value of both coils would change throughout each cycle.

Just a thought.

Brad

Sorry, I'm not following discussion but why should you move core ? You can eliminate core by saturation.

[Smudge]

Just to clarify for this new test i can ditch the 1.1Ohm load on the secondary and leave the secondary open circuit.
I will certainly give it a go anyway.

Would i be correct in saying that when the core is below the curie point the magnetic field is contained within the core material, but above the core curie temperature the field expands to the surrounding space as well.
If so would the expansion field speed be slow as the temperature increases through the curie point or would there be an instant where the expansion field speed could be large, i am wondering what the expansion field may look like and whether it would be possible to induce a current in a piece of wire aligned such to detect the expansion, if we could oscillate the temperature between the below and above the curie point using only small amounts of energy we maybe able to collect the resulting field expansion with many pieces of wire.

One way of looking at the induced voltage in the coil as the magnetic field collapses is to imagine that the field expands just as you describe.  You can then account for the induced voltage by field lines passing over the conductors by the laws of motional induction E=vxB.  Then the imaginary velocity v is determined by the rate-of-change of the field in the core.  I say imaginary because this an imaginary concept, there is no evidence that such a moving magnetic field exists outside the core, and I am sure people will have looked for it, we do have magnetic field detectors.  There can be a magnetic field associated with the changing electric field outside the core, but that is not the same thing.  Imagine a sawtooth flux waveform in the core, the induced voltage is then a square wave.  During the flat portions of the square wave the magnetic field in the core is changing but the voltage hence also the E field around the core that is driving that voltage is constant.  A magnetic field detector will not see any external magnetic field, the expanding concept is therefore flawed.   
Smudge

[Smudge]

I was thinking about this some time back Peter.

Rather than trying to raise and lower core temperatures,would it not be easier and more efficient to move the core in and out of a secondary coil,where the primary coil remains fixed to the core.

This would create an AC in the secondary,while the primary is supplied with a DC.

The inductance value of both coils would change throughout each cycle.

Just a thought.

Brad

Then you have a mechanically driven generator and that will not be OU.  It's been done, but not with the toroids such as Peter is using.  A bit diffucult pulling a ring core out of a winding
Smudge

[Smudge]

Sorry, I'm not following discussion but why should you move core ? You can eliminate core by saturation.

Yes, and if your saturating is done with a crossed field then the saturating drive does not directly couple to the coil so as to induce voltage.  This uses the principle that if the material is saturated along the x axis it is also saturated along the y axis.  I have done work on this in the past without getting any clear results.  If you examine this theoretically you find that isotropic material will not yield OU.  The case for grain orientated material is IMO unproved and could be the basis for further experimentation.  I seem to remember Steorn exhibiting something using rmagnets on a rotor passing over toroidal coils and doing just that, and they claimed OU.  Maybe that was the precursor to their solid state Orbo.
Smudge

[Peterae]

Tried the 100 Ohm resistor, very hard i only had 10Watts and needed 100Watt so had to really limit time it was on, firstly i have 4mv pk-pk of high frequency noise with the scope probe connected and 1mv pk-pk without the probe even connected.

Plus i get random bursts of noise 40mv pk-pk.

We need to get the effect over the 4mv noise otherwise i don't think we will ever see it.

[forest]

Yes, and if your saturating is done with a crossed field then the saturating drive does not directly couple to the coil so as to induce voltage.  This uses the principle that if the material is saturated along the x axis it is also saturated along the y axis.  I have done work on this in the past without getting any clear results.  If you examine this theoretically you find that isotropic material will not yield OU.  The case for grain orientated material is IMO unproved and could be the basis for further experimentation.  I seem to remember Steorn exhibiting something using rmagnets on a rotor passing over toroidal coils and doing just that, and they claimed OU.  Maybe that was the precursor to their solid state Orbo.
Smudge

Yes, I experimented with that also but without clear results. Now, I think it's because I have too little experience with saturating magnetic core - it has to be precisely computed the amount of energy required to just switch core into saturation with capacitor discharge.
Then you take a core , for example ferrite toroid core, and wind two kinds of coils around it at 90 degrees to each other.First and second is for supplying the input low frequency input and output one. The third coil is the one which is  90 degrees to the input/output coils and connected to the capacitor in disruptive discharge mode. What you get is the output should be HF very large power modulated to low frequency. Input coil should be protected from HF. It should work imho because I believe that the output power depends only on magnetic field strength and frequency and the core cannot pass two magnetic fluxes at 90 degrees one to another due to exclusive one direction spin orientation of electrons in magnetic domains . I may be mistaken but most of the time I have  the correct intuition.

[Smudge]

Tried the 100 Ohm resistor, very hard i only had 10Watts and needed 100Watt so had to really limit time it was on, firstly i have 4mv pk-pk of high frequency noise with the scope probe connected and 1mv pk-pk without the probe even connected.

Plus i get random bursts of noise 40mv pk-pk.

We need to get the effect over the 4mv noise otherwise i don't think we will ever see it.

Alternatively get the 4mV noise below the expected level.  Since we expect something like a half sine wave at a frequency of 0.25 Hz and your noise is HF we could probably shunt the noise away with a capacitor, or several capacitors and resistors in a low pass filter orientation.
Smudge

[partzman]

Yes, and if your saturating is done with a crossed field then the saturating drive does not directly couple to the coil so as to induce voltage.   
Smudge

My past experimentation with crossed field windings in various core materials did show appreciable coupling during both the linear portions of flux change as well as into saturation.  This led to core designs like the special E core in my "Vari-Perm" experiments which does a good job of isolating the saturating control flux winding from the source winding.  However, the energy required to lower the permeability is such that the overall outcome is conservative.  Still trying to work out a solution.

Pm

[TinMan]

Some time bac,a post appeared on my facebook page,about energy gains when a crystal is vibrated at it's  resonant frequency.

Apparently crystals give off an elecrical charge when placed under pressure,and this pressure was applied by winding a coil around the crystal,and pulsed at the crystals resonant frequency.

The crystal also glowed a blue/green color when the resonant frequency was hit-along with a high pitch ringing.

The electrical discharge from the crystal was captured within the inductive kickback from the coil.


Just what i read,and have no idea if there is any truth to it.


Brad

[Peterae]

Alternatively get the 4mV noise below the expected level.  Since we expect something like a half sine wave at a frequency of 0.25 Hz and your noise is HF we could probably shunt the noise away with a capacitor, or several capacitors and resistors in a low pass filter orientation.
Smudge

Hi Smudge
Sounds good
What do you think about me trying a build of an active low pass filter with a gain of 100, set the top frequency at 10 Hz.

[Smudge]

Hi Smudge
Sounds good
What do you think about me trying a build of an active low pass filter with a gain of 100, set the top frequency at 10 Hz.

That should work OK, it will put the expected signal above the front-end noise level that your scope is seeing.
Smudge

[Peterae]

That was a bit of a journey.

I have to Couple to the filter using a capacitor as i need to block any DC from the 100 Ohm resistor, and because when i use a capacitor to feed the filter it forms a high pass filter which would be no good, now assuming our minimum input impedance is 10K and hopefully more i had to use as large a coupling capacitor value as possible, i have selected 1000uf Bi-Polar electrolytic giving us at 10K impedance. giving a -3db Frequency =0.02 Hz, assuming the impedance is much higher than 10K then this 0.02 Hz will be much lower.

Now for the filter design.
We wanted a gain of 100 or 40db, i set the -3db at 5Hz and -40db at 15Hz.

Stage A 1st Order Low-Pass
Stage B 2nd Order Low-Pass Sallen Key
Stage C 2nd Order Low-Pass Sallen Key

Design was optimized for low noise, i will screen over the components with copper foil.

PCB has been designed and ordered.
I'm going to plug this PCB company, 3rd time i have used them, $2 a PCB although P&P was $10, 5 PCB's for $18 inc P&P, they even provide the cad software which is via a web app, https://easyeda.com/

[Smudge]

Now just to add more confusion, but sticking to the subject heading of hidden ferromagnetic energy release, here is another paper I have just written.  The partnered coils thread started by EMjunkie came to an abrupt halt when he went off in a huff so maybe it can be continued here, since it appears to me that there is something good to come from it.
Smudge