Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that...

[giantkiller]

Why don't you just move "space" rather than the conductor and magnetic field?

And that would be done with resonance.

[Grumpy]

And that would be done with resonance.

No, resonance is not required.

[exnihiloest]

...
it has the best insulator ever and it has the largest amount of electrons stored.

The earth is a small capacity (710 µF). Electrolytic capacities beat it. And this capacity needs another electrode to be used. We can't charge the earth from nowhere.
Every mole of metal contains 6.023 10²³ free electrons, and even more charges when we account for protons and linked electrons. The question of charges is irrelevant.
The relevant question is that of the separation of positive and negative charges and/or movement of charges which is the only way to get or provide work, i.e. energy. The only known force to move charges is the Lorentz force F=q*E + VxB (or a mechanical force upon the object where they are enclosed).

[thx1138]

Edit: Wrong thread. Sorry. I didn't see a way to delete it.

Dr. Tesla file two patents using the title Art Of Transmitting Electrical Energy Through Natural Mediums. The first, U.S. Patent No. 787,412 applied for May 16, 1900, does not provide a lot of information. The second, Canadian Patent No. 142,352 applied for April 17, 1906, explains many of the things being discussed in this thread. I think the 1900 patent was to lay claim to the method without disclosing very much information. The 1906 patent was applied for near the end of the Wardenclyffe project when it was clear that it was not going to be completed. I think Dr. Tesla at this time wanted to protect the details. The fact that it was filed  in Canada would somewhat obscure it.

I put together the attached document that contains quotes from the 1906 patent and what I think they mean. You should however examine the entire patent before reading my writeup. Keep in mind he always said, and stressed over and over again, that his method delivered power via conductance, not inductance. You will probably find details I missed.

[thx1138]

Yes , except it works for any conductor, Earth has just some advantages over straight metalic  conductor. It has vry low resistance when computed by its size ,and it has the best insulator ever and it has the largest amount of electrons stored.

And it generates its own magnetic field and electrical currents. Google 'telluric currents'.

[forest]

Not sure about creating own magnetic field. I think it is byproduct of electric INFLOW of energy . Earth core is solid iron and acts as dynamo, but theory that Earth can create own magnetic field not dependant on external energy flow is ridiculus if we compare it we the bow shock produced by constantly bombardment of Earth magnetosphere by cosmic dust particles and solar wind.
The same energy is responsible for creating gravitation, interacting with atoms.

[Farmhand]

Edit: Wrong thread. Sorry. I didn't see a way to delete it.

Dr. Tesla file two patents using the title Art Of Transmitting Electrical Energy Through Natural Mediums. The first, U.S. Patent No. 787,412 applied for May 16, 1900, does not provide a lot of information. The second, Canadian Patent No. 142,352 applied for April 17, 1906, explains many of the things being discussed in this thread. I think the 1900 patent was to lay claim to the method without disclosing very much information. The 1906 patent was applied for near the end of the Wardenclyffe project when it was clear that it was not going to be completed. I think Dr. Tesla at this time wanted to protect the details. The fact that it was filed  in Canada would somewhat obscure it.

I put together the attached document that contains quotes from the 1906 patent and what I think they mean. You should however examine the entire patent before reading my writeup. Keep in mind he always said, and stressed over and over again, that his method delivered power via conductance, not inductance. You will probably find details I missed.

I'm reading the Doc's and I think i see one assumption which I think is incorrect, so rather than to try to remember all the things I dissagree with I'll address them as I find them.

here are a number of points to be made from this quote. Dr. Tesla states that Hertzian waves must be minimized so we can dispense with the idea that he thought Hertzian waves do not exist. This also means that Hertzian radiation into the atmosphere must be minimized so we can say that he is not coupling with the Schumann resonance in the atmosphere. He also gives an idea of the rates of oscillation to be employed. And, interestingly, he states that the effect will increase with distance, which I take to be gain which I think would be accomplished by coupling to telluric currents in the crust.

I don't think he is describing a gain I think he is describing that with standing waves and a node at the base of the transmitter (zero volts) as the distance from the transmitter node is increased the difference in potential will increase. At the transmitter node the potential swing would be nothing but at the anti-pode the potential swing would be maximum.

I believe this is evidenced at the Wardenclyffe site by the underground radial tunnels shown in the Anderson drawings where it was said that pipes were driven laterally through the soil. I think these are actually the transmitting terminal and it works like this: The primary is driven by unidirectional disruptive discharges inducing current into the bottom of the loosely coupled secondary system where the energy is magnified thousands of times by the "secondary system" and stored in a capacitive "top load" created by the device at the top of the tower. The energy stored in the capacitive "top load" is then released at specific times and travels down a conductor through the center of the insulated secondary system support column to the radial spokes of the transmitting terminal comprised of pipes driven into the earth which creates a very sharp pulse of electrical density increase (longitudinal wave) that flows through the crust in concentric circles until it hits the "pole" opposite the transmission terminal where it reflects back toward the transmitter. Just as the reflected pulse reaches the transmitting terminal another pulse is created through the transmitting terminal which adds to the reflected pulse and the process repeats until the telluric currents in the earth are in resonance with the transmitter. The change in energy density creates stationary waves as the pulse travels through the crust and these stationary waves can be tapped to extract energy from the wave and transform it to usable power.

1. The primary can be driven by AC if desired.
2. The energy is not stored for longer than a half cycle.
3. The bottom of the secondary is connected to the ground plate and imparts alternating currents to the ground continuously to create the standing waves.

The currents through the earth can be tapped in two main ways,

1. Using two ground points placed at a suitable distance to secure a suitable difference in potential.
2. Using a receiver to magnify the currents by way of resonance and utilizing the "activity" with an output coil placed in an inductive relationship with the oscillating circuit. (Tesla crystal radio style) A transmitter in reverse.

Cheers

P.S. I've come to the conclusion that when Tesla refers to "longitudinal" waves he is referring to current waves, current doesn't flow in wavy lines it flows directly in straight lines (relatively) meaning that even though the voltage swings up and down, the current goes back and forth not up and down, when we describe a wave we plot the voltage over time around a reference point.

If we look at hertz waves we see the voltage plotted, the current still flows in straight lines longitudinally with varying intensity, it's the varying intensity that can be plotted "as a wave" or whatever other way it can be shown.

I think it can be made to be or seem much more complicated than it actually is. Current can be plotted as a transverse "looking" wave representation or other wise, likewise voltage variation can be plotted as a transverse "looking" wave or other wise.

Does voltage actually move in transverse a wave ? Does voltage even move ?
Does energy move in a transverse wave ? Or does it flow straight "longitudinally.

So we have a situation where the current is longitudinal, the energy is transferred in a straight line "longitudinally" ( at least as far as I can tell).
The only thing that is truly represented as a transverse wave is the voltage which does not move. SO far this is how I see it.

Is the current flowing in our grid wires in a wavy path or does it flow straight back and forth ?
Is the energy transferred in a wavy path or does it transfer in direct paths.

The way I see it the only thing that is wavy is the voltage plot and it goes up and down in value not side to side in space anyway.

 

Cheers


..

[thx1138]

Not sure about creating own magnetic field. I think it is byproduct of electric INFLOW of energy . Earth core is solid iron and acts as dynamo, but theory that Earth can create own magnetic field not dependant on external energy flow is ridiculus if we compare it we the bow shock produced by constantly bombardment of Earth magnetosphere by cosmic dust particles and solar wind.
The same energy is responsible for creating gravitation, interacting with atoms.

Since we have no way to send probes or sensors to the center of the planet this is all theory but theory developed by geologists infinitely more knowledgable than myself. The core is solid as you say but the geologists describe the core as having two parts: the inner core which is solid and made of iron and a liquid outer core containing iron and nickel. The Coriolis effect created by the planet rotating around its axis sets up whirls in the liquid outer core which create the magnetism and electricity. A few references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_of_the_Earth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_magnetic_field#Earth.27s_core_and_the_geodynamo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamics

There is no doubt that the particles of the solar wind and cosmic rays interact with the magnetosphere but I believe the magnetosphere and a large portion of the electrical energy are generated locally by the planet itself.

That said, there are other interesting theories about the interactions between the sun and earth that are now being tested with space probes. The sun itself has a magnetic field and produces electrical currents itself both of which extend far beyond the earth out to the farthest reaches of the solar system. The Voyager probes launched in the 1970's are just now reaching the boundary between the sun's influences and the interstellar medium.
http://www.windows2universe.org/sun/sun_magnetic_field.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_spiral
http://www.holoscience.com/wp/alfven-triumphs-again-again/?article=4eefp0kj

Along with all of this the earth is not only rotating on its axis but revolving around the sun while the sun revolves around the center of the galaxy, and the galaxy travels through space. As Dr. Tesla said, ""We are whirling through endless space, with an inconceivable speed, all around us everything is spinning, everything is moving, every where there is energy. There must be some way of availing ourselves of this energy more directly."

[thx1138]

I don't think he is describing a gain I think he is describing that with standing waves and a node at the base of the transmitter (zero volts) as the distance from the transmitter node is increased the difference in potential will increase. At the transmitter node the potential swing would be nothing but at the anti-pode the potential swing would be maximum.

Good take. Thanks. That makes sense to me.

1. The primary can be driven by AC if desired.
2. The energy is not stored for longer than a half cycle.
3. The bottom of the secondary is connected to the ground plate and imparts alternating currents to the ground continuously to create the standing waves.

The currents through the earth can be tapped in two main ways,

1. Using two ground points placed at a suitable distance to secure a suitable difference in potential.
2. Using a receiver to magnify the currents by way of resonance and utilizing the "activity" with an output coil placed in an inductive relationship with the oscillating circuit. (Tesla crystal radio style) A transmitter in reverse.

In light of the other item, above, that makes sense.

RE the "longitudinal waves": I think that is correct. I don't think that voltage travels. It isn't tied to a physical thing like current. It is a state measured between two points with different current densities. At least that's how my uneducated mind perceives it. I guess you could say that the voltage flows because the two points move as the wave of current moves but if you move the measuring device at the same same rate that the current is moving the voltage wouldn't fluctuate. In my thinking, with the voltage measuring device stationary, the voltage between the two point being measured is fluctuating with the movement of the current through those two points.

The following link graphically shows longitudinal and transverse waves but it is related to acoustics. I think, however, the longitudinal animation applies to current because current is tied to a physical thing, the conductor, like sound is tied to the air through which it travels.
http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/Demos/waves/wavemotion.html

Assuming that to be true, then an electrical wave is a change in current density traveling through a conducting medium and voltage is a measurement between to points with different current densities. Dr. Tesla at one time described electricity as similar to sound although I can't find the exact quote right now.

I think where people get confused is that they think the sinusoidal wave on an oscilloscope is the wave itself rather than a measurement of  density, in the case of current, and the difference in current density between two points, in the case of voltage. Looking at the link above, imagine a sinusoidal wave form above the density in the animation varying vertically with that density. The peaks would be at the highest density regions while the valleys would be at the lowest density regions.

That is kind of simplistic but I think it is a good representation.

[forest]

tx1138

This is all correct. Now , all this around is resonant circuit and any load will be part of it. In resonance we can use the same energy thousands times generating huge power and this is what Tesla imagined. Earth is polished ball isolated in cosmic space...

[exnihiloest]

...
Assuming that to be true, then an electrical wave is a change in current density traveling through a conducting medium
...

Very interesting point that I discussed recently elsewhere. That's also what I thought and it seems I was wrong. Suppose you have an insulated long object and you charge it with static charges, differently at different places. Then you move it. From your position at rest, you will see a change in the current density due to more or less charged places of the object passing in front of you, nevertheless it's not a wave, nothing is radiating (longitudinally or transversally doesn't matter). A wave seems to come only from charge acceleration and so a change of the current density is a necessary condition but not sufficient.

It's not yet clear for me how it can be related to J in Maxwell's equation, because a variation of J can be either due to a constant number of electrons whose the speed changes, as well as to a change of the number of electrons per unit of time, passing at a constant speed, and so should imply the same effects. The problem lies perhaps in the way we chose the cross section to calculate the current density in the two cases. Taking the sum of the cross-section of the electrons instead of the cross-section of the conductor or of the electrons beam (case of a current in vacuum) could solve the inconsistency.

[thx1138]

1. The primary can be driven by AC if desired.
2. The energy is not stored for longer than a half cycle.
3. The bottom of the secondary is connected to the ground plate and imparts alternating currents to the ground continuously to create the standing waves.

After thinking about this some more I've had some new thoughts.
3. The transmission system does not impart alternating currents. In his patents he clearly states that he uses impulses. Going back to his early demostrations of high voltage, high frequency lighting with a single wire, Dr. Tesla states that the method is unidirectional disruptive discharge of a condenser.  See "Experiments with Alternate Currents of Very High Frequency and Their Applications to Methods of Artificial Illumination" delivered before the American Institute of Electrical Engineers at Columbia College on May 20, 1891 and "On Light and Other High Frequency Phenomena" before The National Electric Light Association in St. Louis in March, 1893.

This agrees with his analogy of pumping the earth with electricity. Consider the action of a bicycle pump. On the upstroke you charge the pump (condenser) with out affecting the tire and on the downstroke you drive the air (electricity) into the tire  (earth) in a unidirectional manner.

Another analogy would be a lightning bolt striking the ground. In his patents he even mentions lightning. Look at his July 4, 1899 Colorado Springs notes.

1. While the device may be driven by AC, what it delivers is not AC but a unidirectional impulse with very fast rise and fall times. The fast rise and fall times are, apparently, essential to the process. I don't remember exactly which lecture it was but he makes mention of the fast rise and fall times, saying that rate of change is the important factor.

@exnihiloest
I'm not sure it relates to Maxwell's work although it probably does. But keep in mind the above. Dr. Tesla was working with unidirectional, high volatge impulses, not AC and not DC. Again from "Experiments with Alternate Currents of Very High Frequency and Their Applications to Methods of Artificial Illumination" delivered before the American Institute of Electrical Engineers at Columbia College on May 20, 1891

"When the terminals of a high tension induction coil [Fig. 31] are connected to a capacitor, and the capacitor is disruptively discharging into a circuit, we may look upon the arc playing between the spark gap as being a source of alternating, or generally speaking, undulating currents, and then we have to deal with the familiar system of a generator of such currents, a circuit connected to it, and a condenser bridging the circuit. The capacitor in such case is a veritable transformer, and since the frequency is excessive, almost any ratio in the strength of the currents in both branches may be obtained. In reality the analogy is not quite complete, for in the disruptive discharge we have most generally a fundamental instantaneous variation of comparatively low frequency, and a superimposed harmonic vibration, and the laws governing the flow of currents are not the same for both."

I think Maxwell called impulses "transients" so you might look at that part of his work.

[Paul-R]

Can someone help?

What is the definition of "cold electricity" ?

[forest]

 thx1138

Thank You very much, you are 100% correct. I can only add that in 1891 he used disruptive discharge with two rotary opposite aluminium discs (which later was used by Marconi) and then he found excellent technics when he got  100 times more eficiency. I spotted disruptive discharge in 2005 by accident and cannot replicate it again. The air in my garage become electrified with kind of "electric sound wave" exactly like Tesla mentioned in one articla on Hertz oscillator. https://teslaresearch.jimdofree.com/articles-interviews/on-the-dissipation-of-the-electrical-energy-of-the-hertz-resonator-the-electrical-engineer-december-21-1892/

Then in 1900 he patented his method of obtaining energy from ambient background being in fact Earth magnetic field and it solely depends exactly on disruptive discharge and electrostatic induction. Sorry about my poor English,

[Verpies]

The air in my garage become electrified with kind of "electric sound wave"...

What was the frequency of this discharge ?

[forest]

What was the frequency of this discharge ?

I was using car ignition coil and frequency was about 200Hz but circuit has some peculiar wrong connections compared to schematic and it used also transil to protect avalanche mosfet. Still I'm not sure how it was possible. I connected a  bulb with broken filanment and I'm not sure but it was the source of those waves