The Drinking Bird Challenge

[TinMan]

I will make this very simple.
Anyone who wishes to build a simple !perpetual ? ! motion device,may want to join in.

Cost--very low
Simplicity-easy
Brain strain-high 

This is a heat engine,where operation temperature can be as low as 0*C -->is it still a heat engine when the temperature is that low?.

Something to think about--
We raise 10ml of water 120mm
That 10ml of water can raise 20ml of dichloromethane that same 120mm 100 times(about)

Dichloromethane is heavier than water,at 1.32g/ml,where water is 1g/ml-both at 20*C

In total,that 10ml of water raised 120mm,results in raising 2000ml(or 2 liters) of dichloromethane 120mm
That is a total weight of 2.64kg's raised 120mm-->from just 10ml of water  ,and where the operating temperature is a low 14*C

The first video for this challenge--who will take it up?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGjRDQcyIVM


Brad

[Slider2732]

 




This one came out of nowhere....which you're known for and appreciated for !
Hadn't seen these, but the operating principle is readily understood. Off the top of my head i'd think that tiny thin tubes and perhaps an alcohol evaporative process could get a wheel moving.
Has alcohol been tried ? (I don't mean in celebration of the black box runner, but as the liquid on his head)

The placing of the container over the top was unexpectedly quick to snuff the little guy out. That took me aback.

[Paul-R]

Thanks for this. I have thought for years that "industrialising the bird" would be worth trying.

This is a neat explanation:
https://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/science-questions/question608.htm

Is dichloromethane the best? The cost of 5 litres should be around £25 to £30 or so.
How does one arrive at the best length of tubing?
What is the best shape for the set-up?

[Chet K]

here is a vid showing the actual mechanism through the seeing eye of  FLIR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6RfMCWkLOk&t=5s

[szaxx]

Thanks for this. I have thought for years that "industrialising the bird" would be worth trying.

This is a neat explanation:
https://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/science-questions/question608.htm

Is dichloromethane the best? The cost of 5 litres should be around £25 to £30 or so.
How does one arrive at the best length of tubing?
What is the best shape for the set-up?

Ammonia has the greatest coefficient and still dangerous. Bromine can also be used.
Not safe around children.

[Grumage]

Ok Brad.

Once again you've grabbed my attention!!

Some clarification wouldn't go amiss however. Is the device under the Black taped up box an " actual " " drinkie " bird or have you used the working principle into a design of your own?

Like Mark, I was surprised to see how quickly the action stopped when you covered it. With relative humidity here being 80% plus at the moment I'd be very surprised if he didn't die from dehydration!!

Cheers Graham.

[Paul-R]

here is a vid showing the actual mechanism through the seeing eye of  FLIR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6RfMCWkLOk&t=5s

A superb video.

It is the swing back at time=1.01 that seems to be the power stroke, and presumably, subsequent back strokes.

If we scale up, possibly with a 5l vessel, can we calculatwe the dimensions or should we simply scale up everything else in a linear fashion?

[TinMan]

Ok Brad.

Once again you've grabbed my attention!!

Some clarification wouldn't go amiss however. Is the device under the Black taped up box an " actual " " drinkie " bird or have you used the working principle into a design of your own?

Like Mark, I was surprised to see how quickly the action stopped when you covered it. With relative humidity here being 80% plus at the moment I'd be very surprised if he didn't die from dehydration!!

Cheers Graham.

The black box contain's another drinking bird,which runs without having to add fluid,and at temperatures near 0*C

Hint 1- i never specify that the fluid is water
Hint 2- a means of absorbing,condensing, and redirecting the evaporated fluid is required.

Once in an enclosure,outside ambient humidity has no relevance to the working of the device.


Brad

[TinMan]

A superb video.

It is the swing back at time=1.01 that seems to be the power stroke, and presumably, subsequent back strokes.

If we scale up, possibly with a 5l vessel, can we calculatwe the dimensions or should we simply scale up everything else in a linear fashion?

Indeed.
There is no limit to how far this can be scaled up,nor the work that can be done by the DUT.

Brad

[Slider2732]

That video has a clever trick that I know I didn't think of.
Face planting into the liquid !
How better to replenish, very cool.

Alcohol or Acetone seems likely, well I hope so. The evaporation should be speeded up, but i've no idea of saturation level for an enclosure. We know the water is far too effective for affecting humidity. I'm wondering if the liquid reacts with the glass of an enclosure to naturally limit humidity in the chamber.
How to get the liquid back in the container would be a problem too.
Perhaps the bird kicks it back into the beaker 

[Paul-R]

That video has a clever trick that I know I didn't think of.
Face planting into the liquid !
How better to replenish, very cool.

Alcohol or Acetone seems likely ...

I think alcohol and acetone are regrettable because they are expensive and/or malodorous.

Also, the face is cute but what we need is a copper end vessel with a flat surface which will touch the water surface with a large surface area.

Presumably, one needs to fill the system and then evacuate it as best as possible. I wonder what level of evacuation would be sufficient. What a powerful vacuum cleaner be enough?

[TinMan]

I think alcohol and acetone are regrettable because they are expensive and/or malodorous.

Also, the face is cute but what we need is a copper end vessel with a flat surface which will touch the water surface with a large surface area.

Presumably, one needs to fill the system and then evacuate it as best as possible. I wonder what level of evacuation would be sufficient. What a powerful vacuum cleaner be enough?

An old fridge motor/pump will give the vacuum needed.
Even using the inlet of your average air compressor will give the vacuum needed.


Brad

[Slider2732]

Aha...a clue is within the direction of answering ?
Humidity is restricted in a vacuum ?
Have just found one of those mega long protracted pages about such matters:
http://www.normandale.edu/departments/stem-and-education/vacuum-and-thin-film-technology/vacuum-lab/articles/the-effects-of-humidity-on-vacuum-systems

What does hold interest though, is the thought of Dew Points. Whether a dew point condition can be moved away from any likely room temperature. The result being the bird doesn't care what happens with ambient humidity, pressure or temperature, he keeps on moving. 
Another thought is about guiding the evaporation. Something like a smoke hood over a kitchen cooker, back to the liquid source.

So at the moment, the thinking is of a partially evacuated mantle clock dome over the bird. The liquid isn't water and some kind of clever regen system puts the liquid back on his beak.

[TinMan]

How can the Drinking bird pump water to it's head ?


Brad

[Paul-R]

How can the Drinking bird pump water to it's head ?
Brad

It doesn't.

You give it a bowl of water and the overbalancing causes the mechanism to rotate and the head hits the water.

What goes to the head via the internal tube is the refrigerant which is sucked up by the partial vacuum caused when the pressure drops in the bird's head because of the cooling caused by evaporation when the beak hits the water bowl.

[Chet K]

IMO
was more a rhetorical question ....towards an M.O. with sights set on much more than a Drinky Bird.

[Grumage]

How can the Drinking bird pump water to it's head ?


Brad

Or.... better still, a liquid that evaporates even quicker than water!!   

[Paul-R]

IMO
was more a rhetorical question ....towards an M.O. with sights set on much more than a Drinky Bird.

Unless the head is the size of a small car and the body is the same. And we arrange coils and magnets about the tube with variable loads.

[Paul-R]

If you look at this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjq9iy2QAwo

you will note that from time= 0.10 to time = 0.37, the motion is completely wasted. i.e. it contributes nothing to the functioning of the cycle. (Arguably, the oscillations help the head to become colder but it also helps the body to become colder, and the latter pulls in the opposite direction.

Supposing the shaft is fitted with magnets and there is a stator of coils and a circuit which reclaims the back emf, then if the coils are loaded between time=0.10 and 0.37 only, this will not impede the cycle and give useful energy.

[CITFTA]

I have to disagree with you about the movement helping the body to become cooler.  Only the head is wet so the motion helps the evaporation of the water and that cools the head.  The movement of the body through the air does not cool the body.  The only time air moving over an object cools the object is when the object is warmer than the air.  Then the movement helps to disappate the heat.  If the object is the same temperature as the air then the moving air has no real effect on the object.

[Paul-R]

I think you are quite right. I was trying to be too rigorous.

What magnet/coil/circuit arrangement would you suggest, bearing in mind the energy levels are pretty low?

[TinMan]

I think you are quite right. I was trying to be too rigorous.

What magnet/coil/circuit arrangement would you suggest, bearing in mind the energy levels are pretty low?

How about a small neo magnet glued to the head of the bird,which in turn would pass under an air core coil that has many turns of fine wire,where an LED is placed across the two ends of the coil.

Yes,power level is very low,but it is a conversion of a very small amount of evaporated water into electricity.

[Paul-R]

How about a small neo magnet glued to the head of the bird,which in turn would pass under an air core coil that has many turns of fine wire,where an LED is placed across the two ends of the coil.

Yes,power level is very low,but it is a conversion of a very small amount of evaporated water into electricity.

It is about heat, isn't it? It slows down a fair amount when it is colder and needs not too much humidity which would inhibit evaporation.

That magnet would knock the balance out. Balance is crucial. We would need a second under its behind. Above all, we need a circuit (Bedini like) to capture the BEMF from the collapsing field.

[TinMan]

 author=Paul-R link=topic=3662.msg70313#msg70313 date=1542728280]

It is about heat, isn't it? It slows down a fair amount when it is colder and needs not too much humidity which would inhibit evaporation.

Not really.
It's about evaporation and temperature differentials.
There are many fluids that will evaporate at 0*C

That magnet would knock the balance out. Balance is crucial. We would need a second under its behind.

1st,the magnet being a strong neo,would only have to be small.
2nd,the !birds neck! can slide up and down within the rocker frame,and so balancing is very easy to do.

Above all, we need a circuit (###### like) to capture the BEMF from the collapsing field.

No,as that would be less efficient than driving the LED straight from the induced current created by the magnet passing the coil.
All B#d#n#s inductive kickback circuits run at a loss--a loss far greater than what it took to induce the current flow through the coil in the first place.


Brad

[Paul-R]

Not really.
It's about evaporation and temperature differentials.
There are many fluids that will evaporate at 0*C

1st,the magnet being a strong neo,would only have to be small.
2nd,the !birds neck! can slide up and down within the rocker frame,and so balancing is very easy to do.

No,as that would be less efficient than driving the LED straight from the induced current created by the magnet passing the coil.
All B#d#n#s inductive kickback circuits run at a loss--a loss far greater than what it took to induce the current flow through the coil in the first place.

1. It is a heat engine.

2. There's more to it than that - for instance, the point at which the fluid tumbles down from the head.

3. Do you propose we waste the inductive spike?