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Author Topic: The Non-Sense Pulse Motor.  (Read 11230 times)

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Looks like a ring magnet. I wouldn't mind trying a neo tube with an iron core now.
« Last Edit: 2019-01-12, 10:11:02 by JimBoot »
   

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Thanks for the offer to try.  Was thinking...  It may not be fruitfull...  Ccrv1 will never see a higher voltage than Ccvr2.  That may be a problem. Ccvr1 may punk out once it reaches the voltage difference between source and C1.  But thats just thinking that it will all act similar to using the 1ohm resistors, but its not. But, then something interesting happens... C1 begins depleting to the coil, thus more of a voltage offset for Ccvr1 to charge to higher voltage, but I think C1 would keep going down in voltage as that happens causing a mess with measurements. UGGG.   Well, I try. ^-^

Anyway...  I suppose that using the current value from cvr2 we can...

1 simply calc the power dissipated for the resistor
2  use scope function to get power delivered by the cap
3 use the scope function to get power dissipated in the coil

Once you have all 3, see if the cvr2 + coil add up to the total power were seeing delivered by C1.
Did someone say at some point to just be rid of C1 and cvr1? Maybe. But, it does take away a baseline measurement that should be very trustworthy. Id measure the coil on time zoomed in to just 1 shot. The transistor is only on for such a short time, and a zoom in on 1 pulse should give an accurate power measurement and if we know the time it took for the pulse to happen and figure that with the time interval between on times, you should have a good average watts used between off and next on time. if it all ends the same as what has been tested, then Id say we have to measure the power dissipated by cvr2 and the coil, to see where all that power is going for sure.
Weird stuff

Mags

Mags

Well i did the cap test,and yes,C2 charges to a higher value than C1 by about 1/2 volt.
That may not seem like much,but here is what i have--see circuit below.

C1 and C2 are 5.5v x 1F super caps.
Now two things with this test--
1-we must be careful here,as C2 is getting some what pulsed charged,and caps can be charged more efficiently with pulse charging.
2-For some reason the circuit stops drawing current once C2 gets close to the 2 volt level,and C1 close to 1.6v.
I do not know why,even taking into account the voltage of C3,as when the transistor is on,the series connected C1 and C2 caps have the full 12 volts across them. Even when lifting the power supply to 24 volts,the results are the same.

I understand that C3 may stop charging,once the voltage between C3 and C1 get close,but why dose C1 and C2 not continue to climb in voltage?,due to them having 24 volts across then during the on time of the transistor?.

Anyway,a scope shot below showing C2 being some what pulse charged,while C1 is charged with a steady DC current.

Brad


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Looks like a ring magnet. I wouldn't mind trying a neo tube with an iron core now.

What are we looking at there Jim?


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What are we looking at there Jim?
a non powered drive coil under the ferro cell. I can clearly see 2 concentric fields. One from the the neo the other from the pipe. Now I understand the reason for the insulator. I can see compression with the dark centre of the neo rather than usually around the edges.
   

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a non powered drive coil under the ferro cell. I can clearly see 2 concentric fields. One from the the neo the other from the pipe. Now I understand the reason for the insulator. I can see compression with the dark centre of the neo rather than usually around the edges.

Jim ,that looks great  O0

Now,could you send a couple of amps of current through the coil,and then see what the field looks like.

A video would be great,showing what happens when you pulse a current through the coil  :)
Then maybe flip the polarity,and pulse again.
I'd love to watch and see what the field dose when you pulse the coil.\

Brad


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Jim ,that looks great  O0

Now,could you send a couple of amps of current through the coil,and then see what the field looks like.

A video would be great,showing what happens when you pulse a current through the coil  :)
Then maybe flip the polarity,and pulse again.
I'd love to watch and see what the field dose when you pulse the coil.\

Brad
Yep that is the plan. There is a time lag for the field to appear but I would expect to see the iron field change. I didn’t weigh my pipe to calculate the iron content but we may be able to tune the density for the right field. Just need to rebuild another circuit. I suspect I’m melting the breadboard. Edit. Or do you literally mean just send a couple of amps of current through it?
   

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Yep that is the plan. There is a time lag for the field to appear but I would expect to see the iron field change. I didn’t weigh my pipe to calculate the iron content but we may be able to tune the density for the right field. Just need to rebuild another circuit. I suspect I’m melting the breadboard. Edit. Or do you literally mean just send a couple of amps of current through it?

What is the winding resistance of your coil?

Maybe a pic at 1 amp,two amps,3 amps-ETC.

If you have used neo's,then you will need a little more current the neutralise the field.
But i believe that even 1 amp will be enough to pull the PMs field to the pipes opposite field.


Brad


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What is the winding resistance of your coil?

Maybe a pic at 1 amp,two amps,3 amps-ETC.

If you have used neo's,then you will need a little more current the neutralise the field.
But i believe that even 1 amp will be enough to pull the PMs field to the pipes opposite field.


Brad
I’ll do pics tonight but vid will have to wait. I’m going to source a Neo tube, I’m thinking iron core, insltr, neo tube, insltr, iron pipe
   

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What is the winding resistance of your coil?

Maybe a pic at 1 amp,two amps,3 amps-ETC.

If you have used neo's,then you will need a little more current the neutralise the field.
But i believe that even 1 amp will be enough to pull the PMs field to the pipes opposite field.


Brad
Just had a go with the iPhone but no good. There’s a change but it’s subtle I’ll need to setup the tripod with the macro tmrw
   

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Playing with the sim (changing the csr's to 1 Ohm instead of 10 Ohm i was wrongly using) i noticed that the
current through C1 (an alternating current) is almost the difference between the csr1 and csr2 currents.

So i added up via the math function of the scope / sim the csr1 and C1 currents (inverted C1 current) and then i
saw that the resulting math trace was almost identical as the csr2 current trace (see sim picture).


So to me this means that through csr2 not only runs the same current as through csr1, but also the alternating
C1 current and thus the higher average current through csr1 compared to the current through csr1.

Video showing the same on the real circuit here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1P13eRWqCY&feature=youtu.be

I guess i will leave it by this concerning this csr current difference.



Itsu
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Itsu,

Nice work.


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Think I'll get this one. The nozzle goes mental apparently
   

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Playing with the sim (changing the csr's to 1 Ohm instead of 10 Ohm i was wrongly using) i noticed that the
current through C1 (an alternating current) is almost the difference between the csr1 and csr2 currents.

So i added up via the math function of the scope / sim the csr1 and C1 currents (inverted C1 current) and then i
saw that the resulting math trace was almost identical as the csr2 current trace (see sim picture).


So to me this means that through csr2 not only runs the same current as through csr1, but also the alternating
C1 current and thus the higher average current through csr1 compared to the current through csr1.

Video showing the same on the real circuit here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1P13eRWqCY&feature=youtu.be

I guess i will leave it by this concerning this csr current difference.



Itsu

All you have to do now,is work out where the extra current is coming from,if not through CSR1,as all current entering the system !must! go through CSR1. Now maybe a good time to use electron current flow to get a handle on what is going on.


Brad


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earlier someone wanted to see the difference with and without the magnet. If you cant get the magnet out, then reverse the coil polarity. Now we can see the difference of reversing the magnet. If there is change, then there must be a difference without the magnet. ;)

Mags
   

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Itsu,

Nice work.

Still dose not explain how CSR 2 has a higher average value of current flowing through it than that of CSR1.

All current must flow through CSR1 to enter the circuit.
During the off time,a % of that average current through CSR1 is sent through C1
During the on time,the remainder of that average current through CSR1 is sent through CSR2,along with the current flow provided by C1-->but C1 must be charged by the current flowing through CSR1 during the off time.

So,how exactly dose CSR2 have a higher average current value flowing through it than that of CSR1 ?.


Brad


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...
So,how exactly dose CSR2 have a higher average current value flowing through it than that of CSR1 ?.
...
What is the collector voltage of Q1?
If it is less than the base voltage+0.6v, then the pulses are rectified by the base-collector junction and the mean DC current goes through R7-L1-R6-R5 and can add up in R2.

    [update - Correction of the quote in my answer to TinMan, it was not from him]
« Last Edit: 2019-01-13, 11:50:24 by F6FLT »


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You may be onto something there F6FLT.  If the transistor itself
is responsible for the apparent anomaly it should be possible
to narrow things down a tad.

If the transistor was to be replaced by a relay which is driven
at the same switching rate would the anomaly persist?

There surely must be an explanation.  And, as is usually the case,
it eventually is made manifest by determined and creative effort.


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Happy Birthday Mike!  O0  O0

 In five more days I will be 5 years older than you.  I have heard that people born in January have very logical minds and are deep thinkers.

I have a technical mind, but not so sure about the deep thinking part.  C.C

I actually met you at the first energy conference in Idaho.  My son and I spent some time chatting with you after the conference was over for the day.  We both are Ham radio operators and chatted about mixing frequencies to separate water.  Maybe you remember the small group that met with you in the lobby.

Take care,
Carroll

Hi Carroll

Yes I remember that, long time ago, I have a video of that which someone took, I expect you and your son are on it, remember the security moved us?

Yes capricornians are good for working things out, they like the challenge.

Regards

Mike 8)


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Good thinking guys, looks like the missing current is indeed coming from the base of the transistor Q1 (so from the FG).


See sim screenshots below (a very nice tool by the way, worth to dive into!!!).


1st screenshot shows all average currents.

At 0.0ms the transistor activates, at 0.5ms the transistor goes off.

During Q1 activate we see currents flowing through/to csr1 and C1 both making up almost the same average current as through csr2.

After shutdown of Q1 no more current through csr2, but we see current through csr1 charging C1 making up the lost charge during Q1 activate time.

Average current values are:

Csr1         152.6       mA
Csr2         158.71     mA
C1                1.3685 mA
Csr1+C1   153.97     mA 

So we still miss 4.47mA  between Csr2 and Csr1+C1



2th screenshot shows the average currents through the transistor

We see that the Q1 emitter and Q1 collector currents are the same as resp. Csr2 and Csr1+C1:

Q1 emitter   158.71mA   (Csr2)
Q1 collector 153.97mA   (Csr1 + C1)

When we now measure the Q1 base current (coming from the FG) we see:
Q1 base        4.7414mA 

This 4.4714mA base current is the same as the difference between  Csr2 and Csr1+C1 average currents.

So to me this means that all currents are accounted for.


Itsu

« Last Edit: 2019-01-13, 13:42:39 by Itsu »
   

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Believing something false does not make it true.
Hi Carroll

Yes I remember that, long time ago, I have a video of that which someone took, I expect you and your son are on it, remember the security moved us?

Yes capricornians are good for working things out, they like the challenge.

Regards

Mike 8)

Hi Mike,

I had remembered we moved as a group.  I had forgotten that security was the reason we moved.

Take care,
Carroll


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In the real life circuit, i used my current probe for all 3 transistor Q1 current measurements.

Q1 emitter (same as csr2)
Q1 collector (same as Csr1+C1)
Q1 Base

The difference here between emitter and collector currents (same as csr2 and csr1+C1) also matches the
base current delivered by the FG.


Itsu
   

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Still be interesting to see how it operates as a drive coil.
Should the rotor magnets be the same diameter as the iron sleeve?
   

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It's turtles all the way down
mudPed's idea of a relay has merit if you can get it to switch fast enough and there is not too much contact bounce.

Trading the transistor for an FET would help as the holding current is zero, only switching current would bleed through, but even this can be remedied by returning the SG directly to the FET "source" bypassing the CSR, provided the SG has an isolated ground. In this way SG drive current no longer flows through the CSR. This can also be tried with the transistor.

The circuit can be tried also with isolated photo-voltaic driver and FET so no extra current flows in CSR2.

Photo-voltaic driver can be tied directly to source and gate.
« Last Edit: 2019-01-13, 17:42:00 by ion »


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Still be interesting to see how it operates as a drive coil.
...

Hi Folks

Yes, I also think that this setup should further be examined when it drives the rotor assembly. See here what Brad measured across a single 2nd coil facing his drive coil:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3684.msg70941#msg70941 

but he first wanted to clarify the higher current via CVR2 versus CVR1 and put the rotor coil steps aside I think. 

Itsu, nice job on figuring out and measuring the total current balance,  I think the eye opener was the comment by F6FLT.

Gyula
   
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