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Author Topic: Itsu's workbench / placeholder.  (Read 62140 times)

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Hi itsu,

I was wondering what are you busy with and here you are :)
Tesla's longtitudal transmission is always fun to play with and it becomes even more interesting when you have several receiver coils.
Each receiving coil is replicating field and re-transmitting waves so the transmitting coil is also receiving feedback.
As you have base setup already you may explore D. Smith idea and see what you can get in similar setup like he did with 1 trasmitter and 3 receiver coils. The results would be interesting to see.

P.S> Welcome to the forum NickZ!

Cheers!
This is the pic that caused a controversy.  Rick uses 3 watt mr16s and he says that each is lit up to approx 1/2 watt.  Also note the distance from the furthest mr16 and the transmitter and remember the inverse square law.


---------------------------
VAR is just an angle on a scope. Nothing to see here -  move on.
   

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Itsu,

I finally had a chance to go check your video and setup for RF's "device" verification.

Wow, you really went all out! Very well done as usual. It is a pity that there wasn't any acknowledgement from RF himself, until I guess much later. And apparently Aking, the one supporter of Rick's missed it too!

Anyway, you put a lot of work into that replication, and blows away everything Rick has shown thus far. Well done.

I know you're tying up loose ends atm, so carry on maestro.


Thanks poynt,

yes, i shows me that what everybody (well  most) was saying would happen, did happen.

It was my 3th setup (earlier ones with smaller coils and/or higher frequency) and
all 3 attemps did show similar behaviour.

Now indeed going for the only anomaly seen (inbetween coil increases power transfer) and which was
explained by Partzman among others.


Itsu
   

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I repeated my inbetween coil experiment which showed some increase in power in 2 horizontally stacked
satellite coils when a 3th vertical satellite coil was placed midway between the 2 horizontally coils.

It was noted by some and reacted upon as:

A.king21 

Quote
Rick:  Itsu's video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9dLj5MrAHY
3 minutes in -  inserting a relay coil causes output to go UP and input to go DOWN.

WHY ARE WE IGNORING THIS!!!
It's like the forum has  Cognitive dissonance

Rick

Quote
Yeah I saw that. So multiply that by 500 coils that are better positioned.




Here the results from my new tests:

unloaded input:                      12.10v x 161.3mA = 1951mW
loaded with 2x horizontal coils 12.11V x 153.2mA = 1855mW -
                                                                           --------
                                                                              96mW  less input

Power in the 2 horizontal coils (P=U²/R):

3.43²/10000 = 1.17mW
3.25²/10000 = 1.05mW +
                       ---------
                       2.22mW

Then we insert the vertical coil and we have as new input 12.10V x 141.8mA = 1716mW

the new power in the 2 horizontal coils is now:

6.46²/10000 = 4.17mW
6.01²/10000 = 3.61mW +
                        -------
                       7.78mW 

So we gain 7.78 - 2.22 = 5.56mW.

The vertical coil consumes 19²/10000 = 36.1mW

Difference of the inputs 1855mW - 1716mW =  139mW

Removing the 2 horizontal coils the vertical coil now produces
23²/10000 = 52.9mW  at a new input of 12.1V x 138.3mA = 1673mW

video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59a4pNKcEDU


This does not explain what the gain mechanism is, but very probably partzman had a good one
saying that it could be a negative coupling factor being transformed by the vertical coil into a
positive coupling factor:
https://overunity.com/17491/confirmation-of-ou-devices-and-claims/msg536448/#msg536448

If wanted i can go measuring the mutual inductances of the 2 horizontal and vertical coils to come
up with the coupling factor.
 
Itsu
   
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Good work Itsu!  O0

Actually there's nothing magic about the negative mutual coupling in this context.  What it means is that as we move a receiver coil from on top of the transmitter coil to a horizontal position beside the transmitter coil, the coupling moves from positive coupling thru zero coupling to negative coupling with the referenced dot polarities of each coil.  IOW, the phase and amplitude of the receiver coil will change in reference to the transmitter coil during this movement.

Pm 
   

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Thanks PM,

i can see that happening yes, but for some it still seems magic, thus OU.

Perhaps i will take some time to dive into the mutual inductance and coupling factor formula's to see if this can be calculated against my measured inductances.

Itsu
   

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Got a comments via PM from Seaad who pointed to a video from RF in which he speaks about adding a metal ground-plate.
Ground connection at the "right" side of the secondaries!

I still not have the stomach to view those video's, so cannot comment on those tests.


He (seaad) also pointed to adding coils/loads in the middle of the Big coil which supposedly could make the input amperage to go lower and even beyond zero!


Well, that i could test by putting in 1 satellite coil with a 1K resistor (else the voltage would go above the 50V buffer cap) in the big coil.

Indeed when putting in the satellite coil into the middle of the big coil, the input drops dramatically so that i could not use the auto resonance setup, it just stops.
So using the FG i can see the input drops from unloaded (12.14V @ 170mA = 2W)  to   

12.21V x 9.4mA = 114.7mW while the satellite coil consumes 7.4V² / 1000 = 54.7mW

Adding a similar second satellite coil inside, the input now further drops to
12.20V x 5.8mA = 70.7mW while the satellite coils consume each 2.9V² / 1000 = 8.41mW (16.82 total).

 So the same thing happens as with the 10 coil test, the more load, the less input and the lesser the coils outputs but they probably never cross the line.


Itsu
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Itsu et al,

After giving this some thought, my opinion is that the input power drop and increased "output power" seen when adding coils to the setup, is caused by power factor changes taking place.

Perhaps this setup starts off with a very low power factor, and adding in various other loads increases the power factor for better energy transfer, just like the big boys do with the Grid Power system.
   

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Poynt,

so that should be measureable by looking at the phase (change) of the V and I in the big coil like here:
https://overunity.com/17491/confirmation-of-ou-devices-and-claims/msg536525/#msg536525

Itsu
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Yes. :)
   

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Buy me some coffee
Itsu et al,

After giving this some thought, my opinion is that the input power drop and increased "output power" seen when adding coils to the setup, is caused by power factor changes taking place.

Perhaps this setup starts off with a very low power factor, and adding in various other loads increases the power factor for better energy transfer, just like the big boys do with the Grid Power system.

Could it be that the inductance value of the primary coil changes when loaded secondary coils are placed nearby ?
At these high frequencies,a very small change in inductance value would make a big difference.

It would be good if Itsu could test this.
Get an inductance value of the primary coil(TX) without the loaded secondary coils(RX) near it,then place the loaded secondary coils around the primary,and see if the primaries inductance value changes.


Brad


---------------------------
Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

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Buy me some coffee
Got a comments via PM from Seaad who pointed to a video from RF in which he speaks about adding a metal ground-plate.
Ground connection at the "right" side of the secondaries!

I still not have the stomach to view those video's, so cannot comment on those tests.


He (seaad) also pointed to adding coils/loads in the middle of the Big coil which supposedly could make the input amperage to go lower and even beyond zero!


Well, that i could test by putting in 1 satellite coil with a 1K resistor (else the voltage would go above the 50V buffer cap) in the big coil.

Indeed when putting in the satellite coil into the middle of the big coil, the input drops dramatically so that i could not use the auto resonance setup, it just stops.
So using the FG i can see the input drops from unloaded (12.14V @ 170mA = 2W)  to   

12.21V x 9.4mA = 114.7mW while the satellite coil consumes 7.4V² / 1000 = 54.7mW

Adding a similar second satellite coil inside, the input now further drops to
12.20V x 5.8mA = 70.7mW while the satellite coils consume each 2.9V² / 1000 = 8.41mW (16.82 total).

 So the same thing happens as with the 10 coil test, the more load, the less input and the lesser the coils outputs but they probably never cross the line.


Itsu

Itsu

What is the power dissipated by the big coil,which would be the resistance value of the coil,and the current flowing through it?.

Brad


---------------------------
Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   
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Itsu

What is the power dissipated by the big coil,which would be the resistance value of the coil,and the current flowing through it?.

Brad

Supercooling could improve the number by reducing the coils resistance losses by close to 8 times.
Is that why you're asking?

Luc
   

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Could it be that the inductance value of the primary coil changes when loaded secondary coils are placed nearby ?
At these high frequencies,a very small change in inductance value would make a big difference.

It would be good if Itsu could test this.
Get an inductance value of the primary coil(TX) without the loaded secondary coils(RX) near it,then place the loaded secondary coils around the primary,and see if the primaries inductance value changes.


Brad

Hi Brad,

well i tested it, but the inductance of the big coil does not change, it stays 2.3mH with or without the 2 satellite coils inside.

Itsu 
   

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Itsu

What is the power dissipated by the big coil,which would be the resistance value of the coil,and the current flowing through it?.

Brad

Brad, i don't know.

Here the data of my big coil:

https://overunity.com/17491/confirmation-of-ou-devices-and-claims/msg534327/#msg534327


former 16cm diameter
1mm diam wire (AWG #18)
145 turns spanning 15.5cm, so coil is almost square.

Measured:
Inductance 2.3mH and Q 98 @ 100Khz
DC resistance 1.7 Ohm

Series capacitor is 2x 35-345pF air variable paralleled.
Measured:
51-684pF.

Resonance tuned to 180Khz (caps slightly below half way).



So 1.7 Ohm, but i did not measure the current in the coil (you mean in the tankcircuit during resonance?).

Will try to measure tonight.

Itsu
   

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some more measurements with 1satellite coil INSIDE:


Unloaded situation:

gate driver input 12.11V @ 176.4mA

screenshot 1 shows:

yellow pp voltage across var.cap
green current returning to gate driver
red math function yellow x green



Loaded with 1 satellite coils inside (with 2 coils signals are too low for proper measurements):

gate driver input 12.21V @ 9.3mA

screenshot 2 shows:

yellow pp voltage across var.cap
green current returning to gate driver
red math function yellow x green

Screenshot 3 shows same as screenshot 2 but more cycles on scope for more accuracy.

Its hard to get a stable picture on the scope as signals are marginal in the last 2 screenshots.

But we see that the V and I phase differences stay around 89°.
The voltage and current however just collapses.
Could this not be due to the coil Q collapses?


Edit, added the scope measurements points diagram


Itsu
« Last Edit: 2019-07-30, 11:27:50 by Itsu »
   
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Could it be that the inductance value of the primary coil changes when loaded secondary coils are placed nearby ?
At these high frequencies,a very small change in inductance value would make a big difference.

It would be good if Itsu could test this.
Get an inductance value of the primary coil(TX) without the loaded secondary coils(RX) near it,then place the loaded secondary coils around the primary,and see if the primaries inductance value changes.


Brad

Hi Brad,

Rick showed in his video that one of the receiver coils was wound on a ferrite rod and he simply put it into the big red TX coil and this invariably changed the TX coil inductance of course but due to the several other receiver coils nearby the loaded Q of the TX coil must have been at a low value already (like say 50-60). This then involved a flat and not sharp resonance curve for the TX tank circuit, the LED bulbs brightnesses could have changed but a little for such certain inductance increase the ferrite rod caused to the TX coil. 

In Itsu's case with his air cored coils here the detuning effect is surely much less and he could not notice it with the means he has but nevertheless must exist. Putting copper as a 'core' into (or close to) an air core coil usually reduces inductance a little.  The resolution of his L meter should discern a few maybe some 10 uH inductance change when he measures the 2.3 mH TX coil.

Another note: We need to consider that the output voltage hence the output current of the gate driver dynamically changes as the series resonant impedance of the TX circuit changes.  The latter increases as more and more RX circuits are coupled to the TX coil. The output impedance of the driver IC forms a voltage divider with the resonant TX tank impedance and this latter is the lower member of the voltage divider, the output impedance forms the upper member of the divider.  As the tank impedance changes by the RX circuits coupled, so does the output current and voltage taken from the gate driver.  We need to see this process when evaluating behaviour and results.

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Got some info from Seaad via OU.com in which he asks to measure some other points using the big coil with a satellite coil inside.

He send the 2 below diagrams which shows the new scope measurement points and the swap of the L and C of the big coil series arrangement.
So L is now grounded at 1 side instead of C.

This setup also uses a 1 Ohm csr instead of a current probe.

But it seems to introduce some nasty spikes i did not see before.
Not sure they are caused by the csr or the L/C swap.

I toke 1 measurement like shown in diagram 2 (so voltage across the Gate Driver) see screenshot 1

Input into the gate driver (with FG drive) was:

12.19V x 8mA = 97mW

See the nasty spikes on the blue (current) trace, which makes it hard to get a clear display.

More tomorrow,  Itsu     
   
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Itsu,

In Seaad's setup, the glitching is due to the Cr connection to the high speed device driver.  The proper connection is as you had in your previous tests and will measure more accurately.  IOW, Cr should connect to ground and  Lr to the driver.  The overall operation will be the same.

Regards,
Pm
   

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Thanks PM,

i thought so, as i tried the csr before in the other L C setup without glitches.
I will switch back to that setup still using the csr.

 
Itsu 
   

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To be complete i also measured the voltage across L as seen in the first diagram above.
Also here we see the distorted signal in the yellow sine wave (voltage across L) and the spikes
in the blue (current) signal.

Very difficult to get accurate measurements this way,  so i will revert back to the old L C situation.


Itsu
   

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Since 11:45 this morning i am running my big coil with the 10 satellite coils (paralleled) output
fed back into the 12v 7ah driving battery.

The auto resonance did not kick in, so running from the FG (other battery operated).

started at 12.40V and 94ma so the input picture current was disturbed by me when taking the picture.

Lets see how long it runs......


Itsu   
« Last Edit: 2019-08-01, 12:23:50 by Itsu »
   

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Buy me a cigar
Hi Itsu.

Your workmanship is exceptional !!   O0

I'm keeping my fingers crossed....

" Kippers " for breakfast??   ;)

Cheers Graham.


---------------------------
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Thanks Graham,

not looking great though, after 4 hours in the run, the voltage at 15:45 is:

12.32V @ 93.7mA

Itsu
   

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After another 4 hours, at 19:45, the battery voltage has dropped further to 12.27V @ 93.6mA.

Itsu
   

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After a total of 24 hours, so at 11:45 this morning, the battery voltage has dropped to 12.08v @ 93.2mA

It seems that the Heaviside current is not able to stir up the chemical soup in my LA battery, at least not where i live.

Perhaps they have more luck in Germany.

Itsu
   
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