E-cat: Major public demonstration expected on 31 January 2019

[PhysicsProf]

I've been following the e-cat for a while, and today this announcement:
QUOTE

On January 31, 2019, inventor and entrepreneur Andrea Rossi will hold an online presentation on the commercial launch of his heating device, the E-Cat. Thereby, the moment of truth is approaching for the carbon free, clean, abundant, cheap, and compact energy source that could potentially replace coal, oil, gas, and nuclear, and also solve the global climate crisis.

From the left: Prof. Sven Kullander, Ass. Prof. Hanno Essén, and Andrea Rossi, at an early meeting in Uppsala, Sweden, on February 24, 2011 (foto: Mats Lewan).
Since I started reporting on Andrea Rossi's E-Cat technology in 2011, he always told me that his main goal, and the only thing that would convince people about the controversial physical phenomenon it was built on, would be to put a working product on the market.
Now, eight years later, after events taking unexpected and amazing turns which I told in my book An Impossible Invention and in this blog, Rossi claims to be ready to do so. His plan is to sell heat from remotely monitored devices at a price per kWh 20 percent below market price, with no carbon emissions from the operation of the devices.
(Note: The business model of selling a service rather than a product is a strong megatrend driven by digitalisation and by internet of things, making remote monitoring more effective, and it is already used by e.g. Rolls-Royce and GE, selling flight hours rather than aero engines).
While this already implies a substantial cost-saving for the customers, it is most probably only the start of what the E-Cat technology can provide ahead, if it works as claimed.
At the online presentation (more info at http://www.ecatskdemo.com) Rossi plans to show a two-hour video of a device already in operation, reportedly heating an industrial premises of about 250 square meters in the US to 25°C since Nov 19, 2018. At the presentation, he will provide details regarding the commercial launch, but here is what I have been told and what I have concluded so far:
The actual device, containing one reactor, has a maximum thermal power output of 35 kW. It measures 93x40x47 cm, and it consumes a small amount of electricity for the control system.
The customer pays for the output thermal energy minus the input electric energy which is fed from an outlet in the customer's premises, with the electric measurement controlled by the customer....
LENR is a physical phenomenon which has been confirmed in scientific experiments and reported in over a hundred peer-reviewed papers over the last decades, albeit with low repeatability. However, a widely accepted theory explaining the physics behind LENR is still lacking.
Industrialisation of the E-Cat SK has been going on for about a year, since the demo of its predecessor, the QX, in Stockholm, Sweden in December 2017. It contains no unusual components and could easily be manufactured by subcontractors at any time now, at a pace of thousands of units a day.
The two main aspects of the E-Cat technology that are kept secret by the inventor are the fuel preparation and the electronic control system...
     
         Lately, I have reported little on the E-Cat, simply because there has been essentially no new information that could be confirmed. Also in this case, in theory we will not be able confirm any of the claims presented, specifically since the existing customer will not be disclosed at the presentation on Jan 31, as far as I know.
But let's assume that the there's no working E-Cat device. Then either Rossi is fooling himself, and there's nothing that makes me believe this now, or it's a fraud, which hardly makes any sense at this point.
In the fraud case, the E-Cat SK would be an electric heater consuming as much power as it outputs. But after at least a decade of hard work, without asking money from any third party, having earned USD11.5M from his ex US partner Industrial Heat, why would Rossi get back now and sell heat at a loss? To a customer that would immediately discover the fraud by looking at the electricity consumption of the device?
Clearly, only when at least one customer, having used the heat from the E-Cat SK for some time, will speak publicly about the service, the moment of truth will arrive.

https://animpossibleinvention.com/2019/01/16/the-moment-of-truth-is-getting-close-with-launch-on-january-31st/

[PhysicsProf]

  What do you think of the demonstration on-line (public)? 

  Also, I'm curious what people think about this statement in the article above:

Clearly, only when at least one customer, having used the heat from the E-Cat SK for some time, will speak publicly about the service, the moment of truth will arrive.

   Would "One customer" speaking publicly be enough to convince people?

[TinMan]

I've been following the e-cat for a while, and today this announcement:
QUOTE

On January 31, 2019, inventor and entrepreneur Andrea Rossi will hold an online presentation on the commercial launch of his heating device, the E-Cat. Thereby, the moment of truth is approaching for the carbon free, clean, abundant, cheap, and compact energy source that could potentially replace coal, oil, gas, and nuclear, and also solve the global climate crisis.

From the left: Prof. Sven Kullander, Ass. Prof. Hanno Essén, and Andrea Rossi, at an early meeting in Uppsala, Sweden, on February 24, 2011 (foto: Mats Lewan).
Since I started reporting on Andrea Rossi's E-Cat technology in 2011, he always told me that his main goal, and the only thing that would convince people about the controversial physical phenomenon it was built on, would be to put a working product on the market.
Now, eight years later, after events taking unexpected and amazing turns which I told in my book An Impossible Invention and in this blog, Rossi claims to be ready to do so. His plan is to sell heat from remotely monitored devices at a price per kWh 20 percent below market price, with no carbon emissions from the operation of the devices.
(Note: The business model of selling a service rather than a product is a strong megatrend driven by digitalisation and by internet of things, making remote monitoring more effective, and it is already used by e.g. Rolls-Royce and GE, selling flight hours rather than aero engines).
While this already implies a substantial cost-saving for the customers, it is most probably only the start of what the E-Cat technology can provide ahead, if it works as claimed.
At the online presentation (more info at http://www.ecatskdemo.com) Rossi plans to show a two-hour video of a device already in operation, reportedly heating an industrial premises of about 250 square meters in the US to 25°C since Nov 19, 2018. At the presentation, he will provide details regarding the commercial launch, but here is what I have been told and what I have concluded so far:
The actual device, containing one reactor, has a maximum thermal power output of 35 kW. It measures 93x40x47 cm, and it consumes a small amount of electricity for the control system.
The customer pays for the output thermal energy minus the input electric energy which is fed from an outlet in the customer's premises, with the electric measurement controlled by the customer....
LENR is a physical phenomenon which has been confirmed in scientific experiments and reported in over a hundred peer-reviewed papers over the last decades, albeit with low repeatability. However, a widely accepted theory explaining the physics behind LENR is still lacking.
Industrialisation of the E-Cat SK has been going on for about a year, since the demo of its predecessor, the QX, in Stockholm, Sweden in December 2017. It contains no unusual components and could easily be manufactured by subcontractors at any time now, at a pace of thousands of units a day.
The two main aspects of the E-Cat technology that are kept secret by the inventor are the fuel preparation and the electronic control system...
     
         Lately, I have reported little on the E-Cat, simply because there has been essentially no new information that could be confirmed. Also in this case, in theory we will not be able confirm any of the claims presented, specifically since the existing customer will not be disclosed at the presentation on Jan 31, as far as I know.
But let's assume that the there's no working E-Cat device. Then either Rossi is fooling himself, and there's nothing that makes me believe this now, or it's a fraud, which hardly makes any sense at this point.
In the fraud case, the E-Cat SK would be an electric heater consuming as much power as it outputs. But after at least a decade of hard work, without asking money from any third party, having earned USD11.5M from his ex US partner Industrial Heat, why would Rossi get back now and sell heat at a loss? To a customer that would immediately discover the fraud by looking at the electricity consumption of the device?
Clearly, only when at least one customer, having used the heat from the E-Cat SK for some time, will speak publicly about the service, the moment of truth will arrive.

https://animpossibleinvention.com/2019/01/16/the-moment-of-truth-is-getting-close-with-launch-on-january-31st/

Ah,so the proof will be presented on my 50th birthday.
That would be a great gift indeed.

Brad

[JimBoot]

  What do you think of the demonstration on-line (public)? 

  Also, I'm curious what people think about this statement in the article above:
   Would "One customer" speaking publicly be enough to convince people?

I think it's the only way to convince people. Hit them in their FOMO nerve. Thanks for posting this.

[poynt99]

Do I understand correctly that he will only be showing a video claiming that his device is heating some facility?

He won't be demonstrating his device live at the presentation? Will he be submitting his device for third party long-term testing?

Until such time that he does, or one or two happy customers speak out about it, I doubt anyone will buy into it.

[PhysicsProf]

Do I understand correctly that he will only be showing a video claiming that his device is heating some facility?

He won't be demonstrating his device live at the presentation? Will he be submitting his device for third party long-term testing?

Until such time that he does, or one or two happy customers speak out about it, I doubt anyone will buy into it.

  Not sure yet just what he will show.
You said, " or one or two happy customers speak out about it, I doubt anyone will buy into it."     
   To clarify, are you saying that if one or two happy customers speak out about it, you think others will (probably) "buy into it" - without any third party (or scientific) long-term testing?   

[JimBoot]

  Not sure yet just what he will show.
You said, " or one or two happy customers speak out about it, I doubt anyone will buy into it."     
   To clarify, are you saying that if one or two happy customers speak out about it, you think others will (probably) "buy into it" - without any third party (or scientific) long-term testing?

I would have thought the competitors in their industry would be very interested.

[poynt99]

  Not sure yet just what he will show.
You said, " or one or two happy customers speak out about it, I doubt anyone will buy into it."     
   To clarify, are you saying that if one or two happy customers speak out about it, you think others will (probably) "buy into it" - without any third party (or scientific) long-term testing?

I think if a couple of customers come forward with an endorsement, it would open the door for others to look into it at least. They of course would have to be looked into themselves to ensure they are not just paid puppets.

But ultimately, if Rossi is serious, he will submit a unit to a qualified third party to perform long term testing. Does his unit require "refueling" after a certain usage, or is it supposed to last indefinitely?

[ion]

It's a good idea to do some checks on Rossi's colorful history including prison time for prior scams before getting too excited about this. (trash to oil scam)

While I fully believe LENR is possible, there are at least two ways or more it shows up on our screens, one is the scientific method with full disclosure, the other is the stage magician method full of smoke , mirrors, and secrecy. Between those two methods there is a large gray area, with Rossi leaning to the latter IMHO.

If he really does have something, there are many more honorable methods of sharing it with the world. A small proof of concept unit that can be sufficiently peer reviewed and replicated would be more in accord with the former method.

Regards

[Verpies]

While I fully believe LENR is possible, there are at least two ways or more it shows up on our screens, one is the scientific method with full disclosure, the other is the stage magician method full of smoke , mirrors, and secrecy. Between those two methods there is a large gray area, with Rossi leaning to the latter IMHO.

I think so, too

[PhysicsProf]

   " A small proof of concept unit that can be sufficiently peer reviewed and replicated would be more in accord with the former method."

    Yes, I certainly agree.  And we should exercise healthy skepticism.

At the same time, this is a commercial product (so claimed) and we cannot expect coke to disclose their secret recipe.

   I would accept "black box" testing as a starting point.  With the claimed heat output, it should be straightforward to measure power in and heat out, with a water calorimeter for example.  Somehow, operation from batteries or a "hidden" power cable would need to be ruled out.    Then look for various radiations emanating from the device.

[F6FLT]

I do not see why we cannot expect "secrets" to be revealed.
Between the scientific method where everything is a priori open, and the method "full of smoke and secrecy", there is the third way, that of patenting, the one Tesla had chosen.
It seems to me that Rossi has a patent, so if he respects the spirit of patenting as Tesla did, we should be able to build his device. But does he respect it? His past has shown him to be a trickster.

[PhysicsProf]

  I found the site where the E-cat device will be demonstrated tomorrow morning, 9am ET:

http://www.ecatskdemo.com/

Shall we tune in and comment?

[poynt99]

Hopefully someone can/will and give us a synopsis of what transpired.

[PhysicsProf]

  I found the site where the E-cat device will be demonstrated tomorrow morning, 9am ET:

http://www.ecatskdemo.com/

Shall we tune in and comment?

I've opened to the site whose link is just above.  It says "This event will start within minutes."  It is about 6 minutes before the announced starting time (9am ET).

[ion]

I've opened to the site whose link is just above.  It says "This event will start within minutes."  It is about 6 minutes before the announced starting time (9am ET).

I hope someone can capture the stream, as it does not play on my computer.

[PhysicsProf]

I am listening and watching the presentation, live.
  They mentioned that some of this will be available later on youtube. 
Jean Luc has been asking questions that they have answered.  Essentially no detail on HOW it works, but considerable on making sure there are no dangerous emissions.

Rossi has a very hoarse voice today, but its understandable.
He says that SK units operate at about 21 Kwatts in the form of hot air (evidently at around 550 C).

[PhysicsProf]

  to make sure I got this correct, I just sent this email to Leonardo Corp:

Hello,
  I'm enjoying your live presentation.
I want to be sure I understand - is it correct that  SK units operate at about 21 Kwatts output in the form of hot air at around 550 C?   
Thank you,
Steven Jones

[PhysicsProf]

  Rossi still answering questions, many times though he says, "I cannot answer this question".
There is a plasma.  No details about how the plasma energy is transferred to the heat output.
There is an active video showing the plasma inside the device, as it moves and "dances" like a "ballerina".   

"The E-cat SK is available now for business applications" - they repeat.

   Rossi says that there are two individuals that harrass them at every turn, and so they are proceeding cautiously. 

[PhysicsProf]

  Rossi still answering questions, many times though he says, "I cannot answer this question".
There is a plasma.  No details about how the plasma energy is transferred to the heat output.
There is an active video showing the plasma inside the device, as it moves and "dances" like a "ballerina".   

"The E-cat SK is available now for business applications" - they repeat.

   Rossi says that there are two individuals that harrass them at every turn, and so they are proceeding cautiously.

  Rossi's team answered my question above with a simple "yes."  OK, that's good to know.

   Look, I think the PLASMA here is important information.  They are using water, 380 Watts input power, nickel (and lithium) - which could be the cathode. 

It all reminds me of Woopy's work (Laurent in Belgium):  the "Star in a jar", which has a visible "dancing" plasma.   
  this idea was discussed with Chet earlier today when he called me...  May be wrong, but its a start and may lead to understanding the device shown.  Personally, I don't think its "simply a fake and delusion."
    Any others interested in this concept?

[TinMan]

  Rossi's team answered my question above with a simple "yes."  OK, that's good to know.

   Look, I think the PLASMA here is important information.  They are using water, 380 Watts input power, nickel (and lithium) - which could be the cathode. 

It all reminds me of Woopy's work (Laurent in Belgium):  the "Star in a jar", which has a visible "dancing" plasma.   
  this idea was discussed with Chet earlier today when he called me...  May be wrong, but its a start and may lead to understanding the device shown.  Personally, I don't think its "simply a fake and delusion."
    Any others interested in this concept?

Many years ago when i was also experimenting with the star in a jar setup,as you may remember,i also was getting a volume of water far hotter than the amount of power sent to the unit should have been able to get it.

I was using iridium tipped glow plugs as one electrode,and a SS mesh as the other.

In the below test the water temp started at 33*C,and at 100 watt hours it was raised to 74*C.
The volume of water was 2.1 liters--no insulation used.
So we raise the temperature of 2.1 liters of water by 41*C using 100 watt hours of power without insulation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJQ1RAznwgw

Very little energy from the solar panel via the light output of the unit.


Brad

[poynt99]

A rehearsal? Seems Rossi has a sense of humor.

And the full demo...

[Chet K]

JLN
http://www.quanthomme.info/jlnlabs/bingofuel/html/bfr11.htm

just placed it here for those who forgot

[PhysicsProf]

    I just came across this paper this morning:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274644934_On_the_Nuclear_Mechanisms_Underlying_the_Heat_Production_by_the_E-Cat#pag:10:mrect:(181.12,726.66,14.11,10.80)

   I think we should consider this paper, as it explains:

[TinMan]

JLN
http://www.quanthomme.info/jlnlabs/bingofuel/html/bfr11.htm

just placed it here for those who forgot

Chet
JLN has made a screwup with his power measurements some where.

He claims 31VAC @ 81.6 amps.
You see those little wires going to his cell  ,they simply will not handle 81.6 amps of current without smoking up.

I think he was using far less power than what he calculated,which is a good thing.


Brad