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Author Topic: TPU Continuum  (Read 6445 times)

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Question

What causes a voltage across a conductor when a magnet is passed over it?.

We know electrons flowing through a conductor carries current,and this happens only when there is a looped path the electrons can flow through--but what happens within the conductor for a voltage to appear across that conductor ?
And a little more than !charge separation would be good.


Brad


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The best answer, by far, comes from relativity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TKSfAkWWN0



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Cool video

Regards

Mike 8)


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For those printing with metal I've used the bent pipe shape generator to create a toroid with a 27 deg gap. If anyone wants a downloadable from thingingverse, we can do custom dimensions, solid, pipe, etc.
https://www.tinkercad.com/things/ceXGKOwGFGs-split-toroid
   

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The best answer, by far, comes from relativity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TKSfAkWWN0

Thats great.
We now are full bottles on current.

So now back to my question-->what causes a voltage across a conductor when a permanent magnet is passed over it ?.


Brad


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Second question.

Looking at the diagram below,will a voltage appear across the coil when the capacitor plates are charged?.


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According to present day theory a changing magnetic field produces an electric field and a changing electric field produces a magnetic field.  Going back to the former, a time-changing magnetic field (say in the x direction) will produce an electric field vortex, that is a circular electric field in the y-z plane.  This is adequately demonstrated by many experiments and obeys the rule that the closed-line integral of the electric field is a voltage equal to the time rate-of-change of the flux passing through that closed line.  In a transformer that voltage is the volts per turn.

In the second case a time-changing electric field (say in the x direction) will produce a magnetic field vortex, that is a circular magnetic field in the y-z plane.  You could demonstrate this if you put a magnetic ring core between your capacitor plates with its axis (the line through the hole) along the electric field, have a toroidal winding on that core and look for voltage across that winding.

In your experiment there is capacitive coupling from the plates to the ends of the coil, and if the coil inductance is high enough that will induce a voltage across the coil during capacitor charge or discharge.
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Brad,
I have looked again at your first post where you show two scope pics.  From the first one showing an exponential rise of current over 11 uS I have done some curve fitting to establish that you used a 10X probe on your CSR so the current rise is 10X that on the screen (perhaps you could verify this).  It fitted to a 4.8uH inductor with a series loss R of 1.55 ohms.  At the end of the 11 uS pulse the inductor stored 146 uJ of energy, the 1.55 ohm resistor lost 662uJ during the pulse and the energy draw from the 12.5V supply was 800 uJ.  The 1 ohm CSR lost 427 uJ to heat.  That leaves 235 uJ lost in the transformer.   When you changed the secondary load down to 1 ohm it could have changed the transformer characteristic so that the energy delivered to that load came from the 235uJ that would otherwise be lost to heat, and that could explain why the input did not see any change.

Attached is the excel file where I did the curve fitting and the calculations.
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Brad,
I have looked again at your first post where you show two scope pics.  From the first one showing an exponential rise of current over 11 uS I have done some curve fitting to establish that you used a 10X probe on your CSR so the current rise is 10X that on the screen (perhaps you could verify this).  It fitted to a 4.8uH inductor with a series loss R of 1.55 ohms.  At the end of the 11 uS pulse the inductor stored 146 uJ of energy, the 1.55 ohm resistor lost 662uJ during the pulse and the energy draw from the 12.5V supply was 800 uJ.  The 1 ohm CSR lost 427 uJ to heat.  That leaves 235 uJ lost in the transformer.   When you changed the secondary load down to 1 ohm it could have changed the transformer characteristic so that the energy delivered to that load came from the 235uJ that would otherwise be lost to heat, and that could explain why the input did not see any change.

Attached is the excel file where I did the curve fitting and the calculations.
Smudge

Hi Smudge.

I just checked the probes and scope,which are still hooked up to the DUT from the last video.
All probes and scope channels are set to 1x.


Brad


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Thats great.
We now are full bottles on current.

So now back to my question-->what causes a voltage across a conductor when a permanent magnet is passed over it ?.


Brad

Why "back" ?! The answer was in the video :)
What is true for the field from a current in a wire is also true for permanent magnets which are a current loop or a set of current loops. These are always relative movements of charges related to each other. It is also a consequence of the contraction of lengths.
The relative movement means that the electric fields are no longer isotropic and no longer compensate each other between positive and negative charges. As a result, the conductor charges are subjected to the resultant electric field of the permanent magnet charges (and vice versa).



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Why "back" ?! The answer was in the video :)
What is true for the field from a current in a wire is also true for permanent magnets which are a current loop or a set of current loops. These are always relative movements of charges related to each other. It is also a consequence of the contraction of lengths.
The relative movement means that the electric fields are no longer isotropic and no longer compensate each other between positive and negative charges. As a result, the conductor charges are subjected to the resultant electric field of the permanent magnet charges (and vice versa).
There is a second Q re the LC above. :)
   

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Why "back" ?! The answer was in the video :)
What is true for the field from a current in a wire is also true for permanent magnets which are a current loop or a set of current loops. These are always relative movements of charges related to each other. It is also a consequence of the contraction of lengths.
The relative movement means that the electric fields are no longer isotropic and no longer compensate each other between positive and negative charges. As a result, the conductor charges are subjected to the resultant electric field of the permanent magnet charges (and vice versa).

If this is true,then the following should be considered.

We know how strong the magnetic field of a neo permanent magnet can be.
We also know that in order for us to create a field of equal strength to that of a neo permanent magnet,we would need a good size coil,and a lot of current. We also know that the flow current creates heat.
So one has to wonder as to why,with a field so strong,the humble neo permanent magnet creates no heat what so ever  ???

We should also note that since the PM needs to have a continual flow of current in order for it to be a PM,that it must be creating it's own energy to do so. This would equate to a self running device  C.C
And,if we can have a device that self powers it's own magnetic field,then why is a device that self powers it's own electrical energy so hard to believe--such as the TPU.

We have been bred and brought up on induction as being the only means to create electrical power,putting aside things like the solar panel,piezo's,peltier module's,and the hydrogen fuel cell  C.C .
Perhaps there is something we have missed here,due to the indoctrination we have all been swamped with.
How exactly dose this self powered field generator(the humble PM)continue to self power it self for 100's of years? .What have we missed here?

If we have a simple device that can continually self power it's own magnetic field,then the same should be true for an electric field.


Brad


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Why "back" ?! The answer was in the video :)
Yes, the video explains well what happens when the charges move, but I think what he is asking is what happens when the charges do not move with respect to the conductor thus there is no current flow in the conductor ...yet the voltage is still there at  its edges.  A Currentless voltage.

I know the answer is relative motion, but from the video it is not readily apparent motion of what, unless one is willing to accept the notion that motion does not require an object for its definition, as nothing of the sort appears in the basic equation of motion s/t.
« Last Edit: 2019-02-05, 15:02:06 by verpies »
   
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An electric field exists between stationary charges, there is no charge movement needed.  Of course the field concept is just a math means of explaining things, so if you don't want to talk about fields then you must talk about some pattern bestowed on the virtual particles of vacuum space.  These are mass-less particles (or in relativity speak they have zero rest-mass) so they travel at light velocity and they are the carriers for all electric and magnetic effects.  Space is full of these whizzing through from all directions, but some of them interact with matter particles and that interaction super-imposes a pattern that then affects how another nearby matter particle behaves.  It is that matter- to-matter interaction that we interpret as a field.  So to answer your question IMO it is those space particles that power the electric field.
Smudge
   

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Of course the field concept is just a math means of explaining things, so if you don't want to talk about fields then you must talk about some pattern bestowed on the virtual particles of vacuum space.
There is also a third explanation involving only space and time relationships.

Here are some examples.
   

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There is also a third explanation involving only space and time relationships.

Here are some examples.

STEAP TPU, SPACE TIME ENERGY ABSORPTION PUMP ;)

Regards


Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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There is also a third explanation involving only space and time relationships.

Here are some examples.

Eric Dollard breaks his electrical engineering formulae into the same kind of dimensional relationships.   ^-^
   
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If this is true,then the following should be considered.

We know how strong the magnetic field of a neo permanent magnet can be.
We also know that in order for us to create a field of equal strength to that of a neo permanent magnet,we would need a good size coil,and a lot of current. We also know that the flow current creates heat.
So one has to wonder as to why,with a field so strong,the humble neo permanent magnet creates no heat what so ever  ???

These questions have been answered for a long time.

The current in a conductor is free electrons, subjected to the resistance of the conductor so there is dissipation of thermal energy.

The current of permanent magnets is that of rotating charges: the spin, and to a lesser extent, orbital rotations, due to their orientation in the same direction unlike non-magnetic materials which nevertheless have the same spins and orbital rotations but randomly oriented.

In both cases, these are moving charges, so a current.
Maxwell's equations don't care where the current comes from.
Relativity too.

In a permanent magnet, the movement of the charges is the spin and orbital rotation, so there is no dissipation. But in a superconductor, there is none either. A current in an ideal coil, superconducting and looped on itself, rotates indefinitely. It is the same for the magnetic field as a charged capacitor for the electric field: the perfect open capacitor retains its voltage,  the perfect close coil retains its current.

The equivalence between permanent magnet and coils can always be done, the only difference being that our coils are far from ideal, they generally have a significant resistance (while our capacitors are much closer to the theoretical ideal).


Quote
...
How exactly dose this self powered field generator(the humble PM)continue to self power it self for 100's of years?
...

Newton's first law. There is no reason they don't.
A current is not energy. There is no need for energy, spins and orbital rotations occur in the interatomic vacuum.



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There is also a third explanation involving only space and time relationships.

"The Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything"
It's a joke?


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Eric Dollard breaks his electrical engineering formulae into the same kind of dimensional relationships.   ^-^
For me, Dollard's work is a key to understanding what I believe happens in the TPU.
With resonance, we get a separation of charge into its constitutive magnetism and dielectricity components.
Dollard and TT Brown demonstrated this here:
https://youtu.be/6BnCUBKgnnc?t=1383

In addition, it seems that at resonance, an oscillating LC begins to take on greater open circuit characteristics.
The late Doc Stiffler asserted this much by demonstrating the SEC inductor's spatial self resonant frequency as the necessary precondition for the SEC to "cohere" charge from the "spatio-temoral lattice" (consider Dollard's categories), or more simply, from the aether/environment.

From this vantage point, as Mike notes above, the TPU becomes a "space time energy absorption pump."

Respectfully,
Bob
   

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It's a joke?
Nope, it is a T.O.E. after all...and a good one, too.
   

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Yes, the video explains well what happens when the charges move, but I think what he is asking is what happens when the charges do not move with respect to the conductor thus there is no current flow in the conductor ...yet the voltage is still there at  its edges.  A Currentless voltage.

I know the answer is relative motion, but from the video it is not readily apparent motion of what, unless one is willing to accept the notion that motion does not require an object for its definition, as nothing of the sort appears in the basic equation of motion s/t.

Yes verpies,that is exactly what i am asking.

There is also the fact that passing a magnet over a conductor results in an alternating voltage-but why ?.
Should it not result in a DC voltage half wave sine ? .

As the magnetic field increases in strength,the voltage across the conductor increases,and when that same magnetic starts to decrease,the voltage across the inductor has now inverted,and starts to decrease. Why did the voltage invert when the polarity of the magnetic remaind the same ?


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Believing something false does not make it true.
Yes verpies,that is exactly what i am asking.

There is also the fact that passing a magnet over a conductor results in an alternating voltage-but why ?.
Should it not result in a DC voltage half wave sine ? .

As the magnetic field increases in strength,the voltage across the conductor increases,and when that same magnetic starts to decrease,the voltage across the inductor has now inverted,and starts to decrease. Why did the voltage invert when the polarity of the magnetic remaind the same ?
[/glow]

Because the polarity is dependent on the direction of the magnet.  Approaching gives one polarity and receding gives the opposite polarity.  If you want to see a DC signal from a magnet passing the coil it is easy to do that.  Turn the magnet so that as it approaches the coil either the north or south side of the magnet nears the coil.  You need to have the magnet oriented so that as the magnet passes the coil the opposite polarity of the magnet will be the side moving away from the coil.  In other words the block wall of the magnet needs to be perpendicular to the direction of travel of the magnet as it passes over the coil.



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Yes verpies,that is exactly what i am asking.

There is also the fact that passing a magnet over a conductor results in an alternating voltage-but why ?.
Should it not result in a DC voltage half wave sine ? .

As the magnetic field increases in strength,the voltage across the conductor increases,and when that same magnetic starts to decrease,the voltage across the inductor has now inverted,and starts to decrease. Why did the voltage invert when the polarity of the magnetic remaind the same ?

If we are talking about just 1 pole of a magnet passing by 1 wire perpendicularly, there should only be a half wave output from the wire. But we also have to consider just before and after the magnet is tdw (top dead wire, lol), there are fields that arc out of the magnet pole and show opposite of what is in front of the magnets pole. So we could see a dip negative on the scope before tdw, then a large swing up positive around tdw, and then a dip negative after tdw.  The dips before and after tdw can be reduced if the magnet being used is longer from pole to pole vs a very flat magnet like say a 1in by 1/8in disk magnet, where the side arc fields are more prominent.  But if it is a coil of wire facing the magnet, then we will see say a positive swing on the scope as the magnet approaches the incoming side of the coil, then 0v at tdc, and then a negative swing on the scope as the magnet induces mostly the departing side of the coil.

There is a depiction out there that shows a coil on a rod core and the magnet passes by the side of the coil instead of its face. It shows a small dip on the approach and then a positive swing as the magnet goes by the side of the coil, and then again a dip on the departing side of the coil. Mostly because the magnet is inducing just one side of the coil instead of both sides one after another like when the magnet passes the face of a coil.  As the magnet approaches the sideways coil, the magnets fields that are out there in front of the magnet could be atracted to the end of the coil core and actually cut a bit of the other side of the coil, and same on the departure.

A lot of this is why I believe in field cutting of the windings vs E field being the actor on inducing coils with a magnet and such.


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[/glow]

Because the polarity is dependent on the direction of the magnet.  Approaching gives one polarity and receding gives the opposite polarity.  If you want to see a DC signal from a magnet passing the coil it is easy to do that.  Turn the magnet so that as it approaches the coil either the north or south side of the magnet nears the coil.  You need to have the magnet oriented so that as the magnet passes the coil the opposite polarity of the magnet will be the side moving away from the coil.  In other words the block wall of the magnet needs to be perpendicular to the direction of travel of the magnet as it passes over the coil.

Indeed Carroll O0
Much like when a car is comming toward you,the pitch of the sound increases,and as it moves away from you,the pitch of the sound decreases.

Brad


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