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Author Topic: The interesting case of magnetic induction due to a Capacitor.  (Read 3151 times)
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broli
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Perhaps to push things along. I'm willing to give a small compensation to anyone who is willing to help perform said experiments. A lot of people already have these materials or circuits laying around and it would probably cost me more to get to that level so it would be a win win situation.
End quote

broli,
This is the exact reason I asked if you could model an experiment
As well the equipment you would feel is required
There are many who would try to help , however the concept is in “your” head.

We could start build topics at both forums

I have wanted for a very long time to connect resources in the open source community ....those who have ideas
( which can survive some scrutiny ) and a collective agreement between a board of members here ...

“That sounds plausible “ or “yeah we should investigate that “”

I have Spoken with Stefan many times about this very topic
(He will definitely help do this at his forum too!)

And yes it leads to a bigger dream of an organization dedicated to this type grass roots research!

If we build it they will come ( they’re already here actually, reading the different forums and hoping for some true
Anomaly..

An example of how this works has been running here for years ...completely transparent for scrutiny and input!
Itsu , verpies , smudge and others

The talent pool for the open source community is stupefying
I believe the resources are here ( community)too..

Nothing ventured nothing gained

I would involve all the forums.. or as many as possible

And connect with orgs like harmony international
And others

Please remove if ?

With gratitude
Chet K
Ps
IMO you should run your topic in your bench area so as to
Organize and moderate ..

At least when experiments are proposed / started






   
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Hey Chet I respect your ongoing efforts and all the community building you have been doing for all these years. I know you go way back and really appreciate all you have done and hope karma will always be in your favor.

Now pleasantries aside. I know the community has a mountain of experience, skills and equipment. However sometimes an idea might seem a waste of time for some hence the monetary compensation. I'm in a position now where such transaction makes more sense than gaining all the skills and materials needed to perform an experiment that might gives an ambiguous result due to lack of experience.

As for the idea being in my head. I have went through great lengths and many diagrams to simplify the fundamental idea as much as possible. There is no "magic" part, frequency or theory. All I'm asking is to put a DC biased coil near an open capacitor and see what happens. That's it, if that needs more explanation then I don't know either what more I can do to get a build going besides offering financial compensation.
   
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Yes, unless he finds an inconsistency in these laws.
The probability of this feat increases with the number of the pieces.
If there is an inconsistency in the mathematical formalism of Newtonian mechanics, relativity, thermodynamics, quantum mechanics and so on, it would have been known long ago. Here we are in math, not in physics, these theories are internally consistent.

At most, he can hope that unexpected effects occur, which require a new theory or the addition of new elements of physical reality, but then it is certainly not by inferring them from the theories themselves!
With the pieces of a puzzle you only get the image of the box, the other arrangements do not fit, and if some pieces fit differently, it does not make something coherent but nonsense.
Finding new pieces with their new fitting rules is the goal of the FE game, it is not built on existing theories, even if of course they can help. It is built on ideas of physical concepts, like Einstein wondering what he would "see" if he got closer to the speed of light.


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@Broli

If I buld the apparatus depicted below, I expect the current distribution in the axial conductors to resemble the distribution of a dipole antenna like this:



Of course, the large plates attached to the ends of the axial conductors will make this current distribution different than in a conventional dipole antenna but it is safe to write that this distribution will somehow depend on the ratio of the wavelength to the distance between the plates.

What signal wavelength do you expect me to apply to this modified dipole antenna ?

Also, what voltage amplitude do you expect me to apply to that modified dipole ?
Normally, when I apply 1kVRMS sine signal to the center of a regular dipole (without these big plates at the ends), which has a length that is a half of the signal's wavelength, I can expect 13.7kW of far-field RF to be radiated out of such dipole.  With other wavelengths, the radiated power is lower.
This amount of ERP will destroy my scope at a distance, not to mention the interference with it and my health.  So I would prefer an enclosed system or non-radiating system, so I do not have to worry about far-field radiation damage and interference.


P.S.
If you'd substituted the mutual capacitive reactance of these plates with a 2nd parallel conductor, which joins the plates off their centers (similarly to where the double arrow is now), then you would transform this apparatus to a topology that is closer to a folded dipole, so I think that the capacitance between these plates makes the modified dipole behave like something between a normal dipole and the folded dipole, e.g. we can expect its feed-point impedance to be somewhere between the impedances of these two types of antennas.
« Last Edit: 2021-05-13, 19:14:30 by verpies »
   
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Hey Verpies, great questions.

This is partially why I also needed help, I'm not an RF expert but I do understand basic antenna theory and current flow in an antenna. The goal here is not to make a high power antenna either but to maximize current flow TOWARDS the coil and never let it cross the coil (this would negate the effect and defeat the purpose of having an open current path to begin with).

So ANY design that can force charge towards the coil in one direction at a time is good, if you could eliminate RF then that's great too I'm not trying to build an antenna. The initial experiments should mainly be focused on seeing any induction effect if you force charge towards a coil. If you can do that with minimal radiated RF then great!

Below I attached an example of several current paths that are ideal and one that passes the coil which would not be desired. So in short to answer your question, ANY topology that can force charge towards the coil but does not let it cross it is golden. If this shows an induction effect then that can be used to motivate later experiments where optimizing for maximum current flow is performed. But I want to keep things as simple as possible initially.
   

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Perhaps to push things along. I'm willing to give a small compensation to anyone who is willing to help perform said experiments.
Rather than giving me money, you'd better take a 3D RF simulator from me, learn how to use it and simulate the current and voltage distribution of that dipole antenna with these large capacitor plates at its ends.

A lot of people already have these materials or circuits laying around and it would probably cost me more to get to that level so it would be a win win situation.
The materials are not a problem.  The high-voltage RF amplifier is the problem. For example see this link.
   
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Rather than giving me money, you'd better take a 3D RF simulator from me, learn how to use it and simulate the current and voltage distribution of that dipole antenna with these large capacitor plates at its ends.
The materials are not a problem.  The high-voltage RF amplifier is the problem. For example see this link.

Just curious, what would it take to generate a 100mA current in a dipole?
   

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Just curious, what would it take to generate a 100mA current in a dipole?
7.3VRMS
   
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7.3VRMS

I assume this won't fry nearby equipment or cook human flesh? 100mA should be fine to show if the concept has any merrit. I was also thinking of bringing the "peak" current closer to the edge of the coil. I'm not sure if the below dipole design will have the shown current distribution along its path but that would ensure that the coil sees maximum current going towards it. As long as you don't cross it it's fine hence the circular shape.

What would it take to build this?
   
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@Broli
...

...

It is not a dipole but a shortened dipole with capacitive terminations (third option that can be seen here on the second picture).
In these conditions the wavelength of the tuning does not correspond to the distance between the plates (neither multiple nor sub-multiple) but to longer wavelengths without harmonic relation with the inter-plate distance. The representation of the waves between the plates does not correspond to any reality.



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This project looks a lot like redesigning the amateur radio antenna.

Check out the Isotron antenna, I have one setting out back.
It had a very narrow bandwidth, so was not so useful across the whole Amateur band.

It is my experimental experience that these sort of devices radiate the energy outwards as an RF field.
They act as and are calculated as a load to a transmitter.

The Isotron was driven with an HF transmitter at 100 watts, feedline 52 ohms coax. It is a coil in the center with two capacitor plates setting above and below it. It is not very large but can radiate on 80 meters pretty well. They make them band specific, so you need multiple units to hit all the HF bands.

It is an RF load.

If tunned off frequency, there will be reflected energy back to the transmitter that is out of phase, the transmitter will either burn up or shut down.
We use an antenna analyzer to adjust the center point of the tunned frequency, so we do not burn up the transmitters.

Your end caps with extra loading coil on one side will pull the frequency down and charge up to extremely high voltages at resonance, there will be voltage nodes on both ends of it. People have phtographed a blue glow off the plates of the Isotron at times.

This has only to do with EM resonance.

So your addition of a coil off one capacitor plate will cause that side of the dipole to reflect energy back at a different frequency then the side without the coil, and it will unbalance the feedline back to the transmitter, which if it is a new transmitter will shut down or at least throttle the power back to a very low output. If it is not SWR protected it will fry the transmitter output transistors.

And if you have resonance on a dipole you do not have to feed it with high voltage, the high voltage will appear at the ends of the dipole. At the center you will have high currents.

Isotron Antenna
----------------------------------------------------------

That said you can use that form to generate a vibration field around the device in space, by adjusting it's dimensions correctly.
Your spacing of one radius is the right idea. 1/2 Radius will activate a HEX vibration form on the two discs. A T field bubble based on the mass resonance of the two discs, and pull up energy from the mass level turning it into a Tensor type of field. This will appear without any EM applied, how it reacts to EM may be of interest. It will resonate with applied frequency by the formula 1/2 radius length = x mm = x khz, usually done with a scalar coil. This has nothing to do with RF EM resonance which is in general a loss of energy.

Self Resonant Disk Stack

DaveL

« Last Edit: 2021-05-14, 11:49:47 by DaveL »
   
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If you set up the vibration resonance between the two disks, and then want to couple that energy to the power of the RF field you need to know the correct frequency ratio operating between the electron shell and the proton shell.

Here is the data we used to accomplish this connection:

E/P Ratio

Electron frequency must be a fractal value of 658.20222 times the Proton mass vibration frequency.
-----------------------------------
658.20222 Ratio  V Electron  / V Proton
/4  =  164.550555  E/P
/4  =   41.137638  E/P  [Floyd Sweet VTA Turns Ratio]
/4  =   10.284409  E/P  [100 watt experiment Turns Ratio]
-----------------------------------
DaveL
   

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In these conditions the wavelength of the tuning does not correspond to the distance between the plates (neither multiple nor sub-multiple) but to longer wavelengths without harmonic relation with the inter-plate distance.
Yes, that's why I wrote that the current distribution will somehow depend on the ratio of the wavelength to the distance between the plates - not related to the multiple of the wavelength...

The representation of the waves between the plates does not correspond to any reality.
That was a current distribution along a regular dipole, graphically superimposed on the diagram of the dipole with plates at its ends. 
That distribution is characterized by a boundary condition which assumes zero current at the dipole's ends for ALL wavelengths.

Do you know the formula for current distribution in the dipole with plates?  We already know that it is different from the formula for the "unplated" dipole...
   
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Hi Verpies

Even a simple dipole with terminal disks is very complicated to analyze analytically. But we have simulation software for that.
I have quickly simulated in CST the Broli device (1st picture) with a dipole whose each element has 5mm radius, a length of 50cm equal to the radius of the disks, and a thickness of 1mm.

The second view is the impedance at the center of the dipole. We notice that it fluctuates enormously with the frequency, to the point that I had to take a logarithmic scale. If we want to meet Broli's constraints of using a "high voltage" generator, let's say 1KV, at the resonance frequency where the impedance is close to 5 ohm, we will need a power of 200 KW, which requires that the experimenters here be much better equipped than the FM or DAB broadcasters!  C.C
There is only one resonant frequency, around 600 MHz, frequency corresponding to a wavelength = total length of the dipole.
A single resonance frequency is not very surprising, because the disk is as large as the dipole, which means that the electromagnetic field can no longer follow the surface of the elements but will occupy the entire volume between the disk and the dipole, resulting in multiple possible lengths for the tuning, and ultimately a complete blur.

The third view is the current distribution at the resonant frequency.

The last view is just for fun: the radiation diagram. We see that the antenna radiates with a gain of 6 dBi, which is not bad, but it would be unusable in radio because of its pattern. Placed vertically it would radiate towards the birds or the ground.

In the end, the waveforms provided by Broli do not correspond to anything that can physically exist, except the gray one, but at this frequency the use of a high frequency generator is completely unrealistic for the reason explained above.


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Even a simple dipole with terminal disks is very complicated to analyze analytically. But we have simulation software for that.
I figured as much. That is the method I also suggested in this post.

I have quickly simulated in CST the Broli device (1st picture)...
Kudos to you for doing that!

...with a dipole whose each element has 5mm radius, a length of 50cm equal to the radius of the disks, and a thickness of 1mm.
Is that 1mm, the thickness of the disk ?

The second view is the impedance at the center of the dipole. We notice that it fluctuates enormously with the frequency, to the point that I had to take a logarithmic scale. If we want to meet Broli's constraints of using a "high voltage" generator, let's say 1KV, at the resonance frequency where the impedance is close to 5 ohm, we will need a power of 200 KW, which requires that the experimenters here be much better equipped than the FM or DAB broadcasters!  C.C
Yes, indeed feeding the center of that "plated" dipole with 1kV would require enormous power at resonance. I expected that.
But, I did not expect such low |S11| impedance at resonance.  What is the complex impedance that your sim has calculated at this frequency?

There is only one resonant frequency, around 600 MHz, frequency corresponding to a wavelength = total length of the dipole.
Total length of the "plated dipole" (with the two elements, 50cm each) is 1m and the free space wavelength of 600MHz is 0.5m, so I do not understand these numbers.
It looks like the 1m "plated dipole" has the same resonant frequency as a 25cm regular dipole.  That is an 400% ratio!

A single resonance frequency is not very surprising, because the disk is as large as the dipole, which means that the electromagnetic field can no longer follow the surface of the elements but will occupy the entire volume between the disk and the dipole, resulting in multiple possible lengths for the tuning, and ultimately a complete blur.
Yet, the sim shows a very well defined peak (trough) - not a blur.

The third view is the current distribution at the resonant frequency.
This view shows that the current at the plates is at its minimum at the resonant frequency.
This means that operating the "plated dipole" at its resonance is contrary to Broli's intended experimental conditions, because he wants the current at the plates to be at the maximum. I think that in his desired operating regime the "plated dipole" would not be an efficient RF radiator.
Could you rerun the sim for a frequency that results in maximum current at the plates ?

The last view is just for fun: the radiation diagram. We see that the antenna radiates with a gain of 6 dBi, which is not bad, but it would be unusable in radio because of its pattern. Placed vertically it would radiate towards the birds or the ground.
Yes, and it would radiate directly at Broli's pickup coil, which would make measuring any current induced in it very challenging due to the RF interference being maximized in that direction (at resonance).
OTOH, the "plated dipole" might make a good direction finding antenna when oriented horizontally.
   
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Hey F6FLT that's actually really cool!

And yeah I knew this wasn't going to be the most optimal design. In fact if I could I wouldn't even want to work in the RF range where energy is radiated and lost. But by virtue of having an open capacitor with such low capacitance there's almost no way around it unless someone knows of an open plate capacitor that has a large capacitance as well and would thus operate below RF frequencies?

Additionally I'm curious about the current density in the below design could you please run a simulation of that?
   
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...
Is that 1mm, the thickness of the disk ?
Yes. I could have taken 0.1 or 2 mm, it would have made almost no difference, the thickness of the conductors plays very little role in the antennas as long as you go beyond the depth of the skin effect.

Quote
But, I did not expect such low |S11| impedance at resonance.  What is the complex impedance that your sim has calculated at this frequency?
This was not S11 but Z11. CST does not calculate the complex impedance.  It can probably be obtained indirectly but not in a simple way. I have added the S11 curve, which tells us that the dipole radiates only about 10% of the power, which means that we have mostly a standing wave system if the generator has a standard 50 ohm impedance.

Quote
Total length of the "plated dipole" (with the two elements, 50cm each) is 1m and the free space wavelength of 600MHz is 0.5m, so I do not understand these numbers.
It looks like the 1m "plated dipole" has the same resonant frequency as a 25cm regular dipole.  That is an 400% ratio!
Yet, the sim shows a very well defined peak (trough) - not a blur.
Yes, there is a clear resonance. But we should have several of them and it is not the case, everywhere else it is "blur".
The dipole+radius length of the disk = 50 cm, so we should have a resonance at 150 MHz (2 x λ/4), and also at 450 MHz (2x 3*λ/4) and at 750Mhz. This is not the case, that is to say that the rod + the disk does not behave as an element of length 50 cm, and that it does not behave either as an element a little longer than the rod, which would be the case if the disk were of small size, the whole constituting then a so-called shortened dipole. Here the system looks more like a dipole of length 2*λ.

Quote
This view shows that the current at the plates is at its minimum at the resonant frequency.
This means that operating the "plated dipole" at its resonance is contrary to Broli's intended experimental conditions, because he wants the current at the plates to be at the maximum. I think that in his desired operating regime the "plated dipole" would not be an efficient RF radiator.
Could you rerun the sim for a frequency that results in maximum current at the plates ?
We have the resonance when the half-wave is equal to the length of the rod, ie when we have a min voltage / max current at the end of the rod = center of the disk, which is what we could expect. We see on the image of the current density that the center of the disk corresponds to a maximum, we are well in the recommended conditions.

Quote
Yes, and it would radiate directly at Broli's pickup coil, which would make measuring any current induced in it very challenging due to the RF interference being maximized in that direction (at resonance).
OTOH, the "plated dipole" might make a good direction finding antenna when oriented horizontally.
The radiation diagram is an indication of the direction of the far field, not the near field, especially when, as here, we have most of the energy in the standing waves around the conductors.
I have added the view of the magnetic near field, which unsurprisingly fits the representation of the current density, and also that of the electric field, which is completely diffuse.




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...In fact if I could I wouldn't even want to work in the RF range where energy is radiated and lost. But by virtue of having an open capacitor with such low capacitance there's almost no way around it unless someone knows of an open plate capacitor that has a large capacitance as well and would thus operate below RF frequencies?
At these frequencies, the capacitance is huge, at a glance, a few hundreds of pF, I mean it represents a very low impedance. But of course here we cannot consider it at all as a simple capacitance, since we have propagation phenomena because of its non-negligible size compared to the wavelength.

Quote
Additionally I'm curious about the current density in the below design could you please run a simulation of that?
As it is frequency dependent, you must specify the dimensions relative to the wavelength or frequency to test.




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So I'm back. It's been a while since I have posted here but I got some interesting news. For a while I had contact with a researcher (Steffen Kühn) who was willing to perform an experiment similar to what is mentioned in this thread. The exact setup is shown in the attached image. Basically it's a CCFL tube near one plate of a capacitor which is oscillated at a high frequency (aka an antenna). Then in the circuit of the CCFL tube there is a high pass filter which measures any voltage change due to this antenna. The effect is very tiny (as I also thought) but there is indeed a longitudinal induction effect on the electrons in the tube. The reason the CCFL tube is used is because electrons move at very high speeds in it and this effect depends highly on that speed.

The full paper can be found here:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/353659963_Experimental_investigation_of_an_unusual_induction_effect_and_its_interpretation_as_a_necessary_consequence_of_Weber_electrodynamics

Of course this is all preliminary and more experimental proof is needed but it's very exciting nonetheless.

It would be very interesting to see what happens if this is scaled up. The consequences are also staggering. As the counter reaction on the antenna is pure perpendicular to the antenna whereas in the tube it's longitudinal. So basically there is no back EMF on the antenna.
   
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The experiment is interesting, but still far from confirming a force on the electrons. Any non-linear element, such as a plasma tube, can rectify a high frequency ambient signal, which would lead to observations similar to those of this experiment, but without having to invoke any anomaly with respect to Maxwell's electromagnetism.
This possibility was even used by ham radios at a time when very high frequency components were expensive. See for example: "Plasma diode detector using a neon glow lamp".

A more recent experiment has been done on a similar subject, namely the detection of a longitudinal force on the electrons of a plasma. Even if it is not the same goal as Steffen Kühn's, I indicate it here because it is close: Reception of longitudinal vector potential radiation with a plasma antenna.
I had tried in vain to reproduce it. High frequency fields are extremely difficult to handle without leakage or artifacts of any kind, they impregnate the whole electronic environment.


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The experiment is interesting, but still far from confirming a force on the electrons. Any non-linear element, such as a plasma tube, can rectify a high frequency ambient signal, which would lead to observations similar to those of this experiment, but without having to invoke any anomaly with respect to Maxwell's electromagnetism.
This possibility was even used by ham radios at a time when very high frequency components were expensive. See for example: "Plasma diode detector using a neon glow lamp".

A more recent experiment has been done on a similar subject, namely the detection of a longitudinal force on the electrons of a plasma. Even if it is not the same goal as Steffen Kühn's, I indicate it here because it is close: Reception of longitudinal vector potential radiation with a plasma antenna.
I had tried in vain to reproduce it. High frequency fields are extremely difficult to handle without leakage or artifacts of any kind, they impregnate the whole electronic environment.

You are right F6FLT, the experiment is definitely not conclusive but the results and errors do fall within the predicted values. I believe this also offers a very simple explanation to a possible (lenzless) induction effect that many "free energy" device have portrayed as some esoteric energy source (also keeping in mind that many are just blatant frauds). As they use similar design principles having open capacitors near a coil.

An improved experiment would probably be using an electron gun and calculating the momentum change of electrons individually opposed to the plasma tube. Or just go bigger to show a macroscopic effect.
   

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Buy me a beer
Some reading, and then I will explain why I have asked you to read it

https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/sun-space-weather/plasma

Regards

Mike 8)


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Buy me a beer
A capacitor is normally two plates with an insulator between them. This could be made up of a parallel twin flex with same wire ends joined together, and then leaving your two plate connections.

If this capacitor is then charged up to a high enough voltage, a dielectric barrier discharge will result, this is a plasma. This type of plasma normally can’t be seen unless in the dark or the use of special photography.

The plasma is formed due to electron extraction and creating ions. If  a solenoid was wound over the wire pair (capacitor plates) at the time of plasma formation, and a current was passed through the solenoid so forming a magnetic field, the plasma would move along the field lines of the magnetic field. A plasma is like a current carrying wire, so has it’s own magnetic field.

This is what you need to think about.

Regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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