Energy from electron spin

Author Topic: Energy from electron spin (Read 54028 times)

Smudge	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #175 on: 2026-01-28, 10:15:48 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2434	Itsu, I did not answer your request for information regarding the Din interface on the amplifier. Graham Gunderson built that for me some 20 years ago and he did give me the circuit, but several computers later I can't find that data. I will try to contact him but he has gone through a number of email addresses over time. Smudge

Verpies

Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #176 on: 2026-01-28, 13:24:51 »

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Quote from: Smudge on 2026-01-28, 10:10:37

IMO that area will not affect the results, but that is easy to find out. Measuring DC microvolts is difficult due to noise (the amplifier Itsu uses has a low pass filter to suppress noise effects) and DC drift.

The loop area should not affect any DC effects but the ordinary low-frequency AC induction in that loop could confuse the x1000 µV amplifier.
I would not be surprised if that amplifier could not completely low-pass filter out the 50Hz powerline hum.

Itsu

Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #177 on: 2026-01-28, 13:31:03 »

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Quote from: Smudge on 2026-01-28, 10:15:48

Itsu,
I did not answer your request for information regarding the Din interface on the amplifier. Graham Gunderson built that for me some 20 years ago and he did give me the circuit, but several computers later I can't find that data. I will try to contact him but he has gone through a number of email addresses over time.
Smudge

Smudge, it is not that important, i guess it is to connect an external meter (+- uV meter) or so.

Concerning this:

Quote

Quote
Swapping the black side stack from N-pole to S-pole will show 4uV both with the black wire at the end or in the middle of the iron wire.

You say "will" show, but I assume you mean that was measured, in which case that is unexpected.

Yes, i mean i did measure this, somehow there is no difference in the data when attaching the black lead to the end of the iron wire or in the middle.

I will retest to confirm this and also retest the shorter wire with the longer connection leads as verpies mentioned it could be due to these longer wires (loop).

Itsu

« Last Edit: 2026-01-28, 14:32:20 by Itsu »

F6FLT

Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #178 on: 2026-01-28, 16:21:38 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2026-01-26, 15:45:36

Here my replication attempt with the equipment i got.

I measure some -4uV on this 1.5m long iron wire (garden binding wire) no matter what direction / pole i connect the magnets stack to the wire.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGyDMttnRBk

Itsu

Hi Itsu,

I just did some tests with a setup similar to yours. I replaced the wire with an iron bar covered in stainless steel.
When I place the magnet at one end, I don't see much change. If I leave it there for 10 to 20 seconds and then remove it, I see an increase of between 20 and 40 µV, followed by a slow decrease. But this effect, which I've seen several times, doesn't seem to be systematic.
As in your configuration, there is indeed at times a clear signal of a current that appears to be abnormal. But there are several possible reasons and it is difficult to identify them (for example, contacts between different metals to establish the circuit, e.g. copper/iron, we know that these junctions create DDPs). It needs to be explored further.
I am lucky to have an old but reliable HP 3468A, which measures µV directly. In the photos, the white areas just hide the mess :-). We can see that we only had 2µV with the magnet, but 21µV just after I removed it and before the voltage slowly dropped.

Energy from electron spin

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Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #179 on: 2026-01-28, 18:48:35 »

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Here is an unfinished paper on this topic. Itsu's -4uV from his 0.5T magnets if of the right order compared to my calculated 10uV from 1T. That basic equation (1) is known but I can find no evidence of it being used other than in the Stern Gerlach beam splitting. I will continue with this paper to include a consideration where the electron dipoles are modelled as tiny current loops to show that the energy into a load comes from those current loops; as they move along the non-uniform field the voltage induced into those loops loads their current sources and that exactly accounts for the everlasting energy output.

Smudge

Everlasting Battery.pdf (241.27 kB - downloaded 34 times.)

Smudge

Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #180 on: 2026-01-28, 18:57:37 »

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Quote from: Verpies on 2026-01-28, 13:24:51

The loop area should not affect any DC effects but the ordinary low-frequency AC induction in that loop could confuse the x1000 µV amplifier.
I would not be surprised if that amplifier could not completely low-pass filter out the 50Hz powerline hum.

I am sure it does, I have used it attached to an oscilloscope and there is no sign of 50Hz hum. I think some of the drift being observed is due to the low-pass filter having sub hertz cut-off.

Itsu

Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #181 on: 2026-01-28, 19:53:00 »

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Quote from: F6FLT on 2026-01-28, 16:21:38

Hi Itsu,

I just did some tests with a setup similar to yours. I replaced the wire with an iron bar covered in stainless steel.
When I place the magnet at one end, I don't see much change. If I leave it there for 10 to 20 seconds and then remove it, I see an increase of between 20 and 40 µV, followed by a slow decrease. But this effect, which I've seen several times, doesn't seem to be systematic.
As in your configuration, there is indeed at times a clear signal of a current that appears to be abnormal. But there are several possible reasons and it is difficult to identify them (for example, contacts between different metals to establish the circuit, e.g. copper/iron, we know that these junctions create DDPs). It needs to be explored further.
I am lucky to have an old but reliable HP 3468A, which measures µV directly. In the photos, the white areas just hide the mess :-). We can see that we only had 2µV with the magnet, but 21µV just after I removed it and before the voltage slowly dropped.

Hi F6,

i was hoping that someone with a good uV meter would join in, so thanks for that.

I, too, see very little response (only +-1uV) on my short iron wire (30cm) compared to the earlier used 1.6m wire, even with longer connection leads to create a comparable "loop" length.

I also noticed that touching the wire and/or connectors/magnets with my fingers will cause a much bigger voltage swing (10 to 15uV) which stays on for several minutes then simply using the magnets only.
So therefor i carefully try to avoid touching anything with my fingers when working on the setup.

But the effect you mentioned of not seeing much change when connecting the magnet and only after removing the magnet to see a 20 to 40uV change, i have not noticed here.
(by the way, it can initially take up to 5 minutes for a reasonable change to be seen here).

Could it be that the makeup of your rod (an iron bar covered in stainless steel) has anything to do with this?

Anyway, perhaps you find the time to look for a 1.6m @ 1.5mm piece of garden iron wire to repeat your test.

Itsu

Itsu

Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #182 on: 2026-01-28, 20:43:52 »

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Quote from: Verpies on 2026-01-28, 09:15:41

Maybe it is not about the wire length but about the area of the loop that it forms together with the test leads.

I made the following test with the short iron wire, but with extended connection leads to have about the same "loop" length as with the longer wire.

It shows similar results (+-1uV) as with the short wire and short connections on the bench, but it seems to fluctuate more and shows a kind of rising first followed by a slow decrease, see video: https://youtu.be/EeNds3Q8-j4

« Last Edit: 2026-01-28, 21:44:52 by Itsu »

partzman

Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #183 on: 2026-01-28, 21:24:30 »

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FWIW,

I have an HP3455A which has 1uv resolution. I tried various pieces including baling wire(soft iron), chrome plated steel, iron rod, etc, and found no abnormal measurements with a stack of 5 x 3/8" N52 neo pms. There were varying readings of +/- 2 to 3uv in all cases with both PM polarities. These same variations were seen with the copper connecting leads shorted. Yes I checked the continuity or resistance values of each piece with the connections made.

Pm

« Last Edit: 2026-01-28, 22:25:34 by partzman »

Itsu	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #184 on: 2026-01-29, 09:43:52 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4848	Thanks, PM, for doing the tests and presenting your results. I, too, have only marginal values like in the 3 a 4uV's, and they vary a lot, but i do see a constant difference in polarity when either putting the magnet at the black side or the red side. Putting a piece of electrical tape in between the magnet and the wire seems to stabilize the fluctuations somewhat. Itsu

F6FLT

Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #185 on: 2026-01-29, 10:31:03 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2026-01-28, 19:53:00

...
I also noticed that touching the wire and/or connectors/magnets with my fingers will cause a much bigger voltage swing (10 to 15uV) which stays on for several minutes then simply using the magnets only.
So therefor i carefully try to avoid touching anything with my fingers when working on the setup.

This is probably due to the mains current field in which we are immersed. If we bring back 50 Hz by touching the conductor, and there is non-linearity in the input of the measuring device, this results in a direct current. The fact that it remains after touching is surprising; perhaps it is related to our effect. I was surprised to find that I had virtually no interference of this kind here (touching the conductor causes my measurements to vary by only 2 µV).

Quote

But the effect you mentioned of not seeing much change when connecting the magnet and only after removing the magnet to see a 20 to 40uV change, i have not noticed here.
(by the way, it can initially take up to 5 minutes for a reasonable change to be seen here).

Could it be that the makeup of your rod (an iron bar covered in stainless steel) has anything to do with this?

Anyway, perhaps you find the time to look for a 1.6m @ 1.5mm piece of garden iron wire to repeat your test.

Itsu

To answer your question, I suppose so. And I intend to try with a wire like yours, because the voltage at certain moments is undeniable, even with my setup.

I just connected the multimeter to measure current instead of voltage. In current mode, we are less susceptible to the mains field because of the low impedance. 10µA is the minimum value my equipment can read. It displays zero on average, but I sometimes get temporary fluctuations to 10µA, and I feel like I get it more often when the magnet is stuck to the end. It is difficult to say for sure that such a current is flowing. The effect is real, but we are dealing with very low power levels (for the moment

).

« Last Edit: 2026-01-29, 11:35:20 by F6FLT »

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chief kolbacict	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #186 on: 2026-01-29, 11:40:41 »
Sr. Member Posts: 436	Is it here the same effect? http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm

F6FLT

Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #187 on: 2026-01-29, 11:56:56 »

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I just tried with some iron wire (garden wire, covered in green plastic). With or without a magnet, no result!
I'll try other conductors.

Quote from: chief kolbacict on 2026-01-29, 11:40:41

Is it here the same effect?
http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm

Nothing to do with it. At JLN, it's a matter of modifying the permeability of a ferrite torus using a magnetic field parallel to the plane of the torus (it's a parameric system, it works but not FE).

Energy from electron spin

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« Last Edit: 2026-01-29, 13:05:15 by F6FLT »

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Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #188 on: 2026-01-29, 12:51:38 »

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Possible hypothesis on how it works.
----------------------------------------
Something that has rarely been discussed here is the issue of contact potentials between different metals. These potentials are significant, e.g. Fe/Cu: 0.2v, Fe/Al: 0.42v, Cu/Al: 0.62v, Al/C ~0,90v, Fe/C ~0,50v, Cu/C ~0,30v.

They can never be measured directly, but only through subtle techniques, because in a closed circuit, regardless of the arrangement, the sum of these potentials will always be zero.
These potentials also depend on the contact surface (smooth, rough, etc.), but in this case it is as if we were adding an intermediate metal, and again, in a circuit, the sum will always be zero.

However, 1µV represents only 1/200,000th of the PD of the Fe/Cu pair. Could it be that a magnetic field acting in some way on one of the Fe/Cu junctions, and not on the other, could create this slight imbalance that provides us with a few µV?
(Even if this is not the case here, we can think of it as a principle to be implemented. It would then be a Maxwell demon.)

« Last Edit: 2026-01-29, 14:30:09 by F6FLT »

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Itsu

Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #189 on: 2026-01-29, 15:03:13 »

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thanks for testing with the short wire, i too had very little response on a short piece.

Although my results are fluctuating and lately i can not get the response of +-4uV anymore, the effect of having a negative value at the red side of the wire and a positive value at the black side is constantly there.

I do not hear you and Partzman report that, does that mean that you are not seeing this effect?

Anyway, could your hypothesis also explain this positive/negative effect?

Here i used a freshly cut piece of the same iron wire (the old piece got some residual magnetism showing (8mT) on both sides) and it still shows this positive / negative effect, see video: https://youtu.be/W4XYgePfAGQ

Itsu

F6FLT

Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #190 on: 2026-01-29, 16:55:48 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2026-01-29, 15:03:13

thanks for testing with the short wire, i too had very little response on a short piece.

Although my results are fluctuating and lately i can not get the response of +-4uV anymore, the effect of having a negative value at the red side of the wire and a positive value at the black side is constantly there.

I do not hear you and Partzman report that, does that mean that you are not seeing this effect?

You mean when you place the magnet on one side or the other, it changes the direction of the current?
Actually, I didn't get that effect. And you get the same direction of current regardless of the polarity of the magnet?

Quote

Anyway, could your hypothesis also explain this positive/negative effect?

Here i used a freshly cut piece of the same iron wire (the old piece got some residual magnetism showing (8mT) on both sides) and it still shows this positive / negative effect, see video: https://youtu.be/W4XYgePfAGQ

It's hard to say. There are two distinct things: 1) the often slow evolution of voltage and 2) the origin of the voltage. I don't want to be too categorical, but on my side, point 1) is a question of the contact surface of the metals.
In my opinion, mechanical movements surely cause the contact points to shift at the microscopic level, and then they slowly relax before reaching a new equilibrium position. This affects the current and voltage.
For point 2), there is no certainty at this stage as to whether it is related to the Voltaic potential of metals, but the interface between metals does seem to be closely linked to the source of the voltage, because with an ordinary generator, it would not vary so much.

I replaced the contact on my stainless steel bar with rolled aluminium foil, because the Fe/Al or stainless steel/Al couple is higher than Fe/Cu. When I rotate the bar in the aluminium foil for a few seconds in one direction and then the other, the voltage increases dramatically, exceeding 70 µV and, in current mode, 40 µA (no more need for magnets). Then I clamp the aluminium with a clamp. It quickly drops back to 40 µV, but several minutes later, I still have more than 10 µV and, in current mode, 10 µA. An hour later, I still have a few µV. There may also be electrolytic effects with air humidity and metal oxides, even though it is rather dry here and the contacts are tight. I don't know what else to do to pinpoint the source of these voltages.

New hypothesis:
- Ultimately, it seems impossible for Volta's potentials to do any work (except for an improbable Maxwell's demon).
- An electrochemical reaction can be ruled out. Even when the two metals interpenetrate, these potentials still exist.
- I asked ChatGPT what hypothesis would remain, and it gave me a plausible answer: the Seebeck effect.
Indeed: ΔT of 1–10 mK → µV to tens of µV.
These mK could be obtained by friction when the contacts are moved, which also exerts stresses that modify the resistivity. We could therefore be in the presence of a thermoelectric effect. I still have some doubts, as the return to equilibrium time is very long for temperature equalisation.

« Last Edit: 2026-01-29, 19:58:30 by F6FLT »

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Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #191 on: 2026-01-29, 18:50:21 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2026-01-29, 15:03:13

thanks for testing with the short wire, i too had very little response on a short piece.

Although my results are fluctuating and lately i can not get the response of +-4uV anymore, the effect of having a negative value at the red side of the wire and a positive value at the black side is constantly there.

I do not hear you and Partzman report that, does that mean that you are not seeing this effect?

Anyway, could your hypothesis also explain this positive/negative effect?

Here i used a freshly cut piece of the same iron wire (the old piece got some residual magnetism showing (8mT) on both sides) and it still shows this positive / negative effect, see video: https://youtu.be/W4XYgePfAGQ

Itsu

This positive/negative effect occurs because the spin-polarized electrons (aligned with the internal magnetic field in the wire) are drawn towards the magnet. The magnet end of the wire is always negative wrt the other end. That is a good indication that what I hoped was happening really is.

Smudge

Smudge

Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #192 on: 2026-01-29, 19:10:24 »

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Quote from: F6FLT on 2026-01-29, 12:51:38

Possible hypothesis on how it works.
----------------------------------------
Something that has rarely been discussed here is the issue of contact potentials between different metals. These potentials are significant, e.g. Fe/Cu: 0.2v, Fe/Al: 0.42v, Cu/Al: 0.62v, Al/C ~0,90v, Fe/C ~0,50v, Cu/C ~0,30v.

They can never be measured directly, but only through subtle techniques, because in a closed circuit, regardless of the arrangement, the sum of these potentials will always be zero.
These potentials also depend on the contact surface (smooth, rough, etc.), but in this case it is as if we were adding an intermediate metal, and again, in a circuit, the sum will always be zero.

However, 1µV represents only 1/200,000th of the PD of the Fe/Cu pair. Could it be that a magnetic field acting in some way on one of the Fe/Cu junctions, and not on the other, could create this slight imbalance that provides us with a few µV?
(Even if this is not the case here, we can think of it as a principle to be implemented. It would then be a Maxwell demon.)

Those contact potentials vary with temperature and also with magnetic field (Seebeck effect and Magnetic Seebeck effect). Also the remanence of the wire material could make the first measurement differ from subsequent measurements (because initially it was not partly permanently magnetized), so I am not surprised at the difficulty of these experiments. There are other ways of getting flux variations along the current path in metal by using conical shaped flux concentrators, perhaps more easily made as triangular shaped thin sheet. There are other ferromagnetic conductors available in sheet form, like mumetal. It is the flux concentration that pulls the electrons.

Smudge

Itsu

Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #193 on: 2026-01-29, 19:48:18 »

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Quote from: F6FLT on 2026-01-29, 16:55:48

You mean when you place the magnet on one side or the other, it changes the direction of the current?
Actually, I didn't get that effect. And you get the same direction of current regardless of the polarity of the magnet?

Not the direction of the current (at least, i don't know as i am not measuring the current) instead i mean the polarity of the voltage.
Its always negative at the red connector side of the iron wire, and positive on the black connector side.

And, its always the same (negative at red etc.) regardless which pole of the magnet is touching the wire, but that is already explained by Smudge earlier.

Itsu

Smudge

Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #194 on: 2026-01-30, 08:14:18 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2026-01-29, 19:48:18

Not the direction of the current (at least, i don't know as i am not measuring the current) instead i mean the polarity of the voltage.
Its always negative at the red connector side of the iron wire, and positive on the black connector side.

That is not quite what you observed. It is negative at the red connector side when the magnet is put there no matter which way around the magnet is placed. It changes to positive at the red connector when the magnet is placed at the black connector end. At least it did on your earlier measurements when you got 4uV. You have not been able to reproduce those 4uV values and that may be due to remanent magnetism in the wire. Is there any way to ensure you start with unmagnetized wire?

Smudge

Itsu

Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #195 on: 2026-01-30, 10:08:12 »

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Quote from: Smudge on 2026-01-30, 08:14:18

That is not quite what you observed. It is negative at the red connector side when the magnet is put there no matter which way around the magnet is placed. It changes to positive at the red connector when the magnet is placed at the black connector end. At least it did on your earlier measurements when you got 4uV. You have not been able to reproduce those 4uV values and that may be due to remanent magnetism in the wire. Is there any way to ensure you start with unmagnetized wire?

Smudge

Quote

That is not quite what you observed. It is negative at the red connector side when the magnet is put there no matter which way around the magnet is placed. It changes to positive at the red connector when the magnet is placed at the black connector end.

Yes, that is what I meant

Quote

on your earlier measurements when you got 4uV. You have not been able to reproduce those 4uV values and that may be due to remanent magnetism in the wire. Is there any way to ensure you start with unmagnetized wire?

That's what i did in my last test a few posts above.
The results are still noticeable, but not that pronounced at max + - 1.5uV after some minutes.
Pehaps this is the result of me being much more careful not to touch anything directly with my fingers compared to the first tests i did.

Itsu

Smudge

Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #196 on: 2026-02-02, 07:57:16 »

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Itsu,

The theory and magnetic simulations predict that a short wire will produce less voltage than a long wire. When you say you can no longer get 4uV have you tried another long wire test with a new piece of unmagnetized wire? A repeat of your first test where the magnet touches the wire, i.e. not having those plastic pieces between the magnet and the wire. That result where the voltage hovered around -4uV, then +4uV when the magnet was moved to the other end, was the most significant finding and I would like to know whther it was an artefact or something real. If you have already performed another long wire test to prove this then please ignore this request.

Smudge

Itsu

Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #197 on: 2026-02-02, 10:45:57 »

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Smudge,

Quote

The theory and magnetic simulations predict that a short wire will produce less voltage than a long wire. When you say you can no longer get 4uV have you tried another long wire test with a new piece of unmagnetized wire?

I did notice that the short wire test did show less voltage, and yes, i did try with a freshly cut new piece of longer wire, see here

Since the first test with the long wire and the +-4uV results, i made some handling changes as to rule out any touching of the magnet, wire and connectors etc. with my hand / fingers and i also moved the connectors 5cm from the ends inwards as i found that (almost) touching the connectors with the magnet creates a reading.

Since those precautions, the results are practically reduced to zero or +- 1uV at most as can be seen in this video a just made (new piece of iron wire): https://youtu.be/pJeIpnR19a4

I tried to calibrate / check the amplifier box by using my FG to feed in a small signal (AC square wave) and see what the readings are, but it shows that the positive voltage of the AC square wave is higher that the negative part, so it seems there is some unbalance in the amplifier, see video here: https://youtu.be/RqXxdWoy0mM

So in the light of this all, and what Partzman and F6FLT have shown too, i doubt if the effect i have presented initially is real.

Itsu

Smudge	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #198 on: 2026-02-02, 14:17:40 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2434	Itsu, Thanks for doing that. One last question, have you used the same croc clips, could they be magnetized? Smudge

Itsu	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #199 on: 2026-02-02, 15:21:29 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4848	Smudge, i used the same croc clips, but i just measured them to be NOT magnetized. I also just used another set of connection leads with other croc clips and got similar results as this morning, meaning very little response -1uV max at the red side and +0.5uV at the black side. Itsu