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OverUnity Research > General - Free Energy Related > Miscellaneous Discussions (Moderator: Allcanadian) > Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor
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Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor « on: 2022-10-01, 17:58:44 »
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Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor
https://fuel-efficient-vehicles.org/energy-news/?page_id=955

Quote
In 1957, a Russian immigrant to the USA, one Alexei Poppoff, showed Edwin Gray a circuit which he said he had been shown by Nikola Tesla. Tesla in his Philadelphia and St Louis lecture in 1893 showed how loads can be powered when a high voltage source is pulsed by magnetically-quenched sparks – this creates DC pulses of very short duration.
Edwin Gray joined up with his next-door neighbor Marvin Cole, who held a Masters degree in Mechanical Engineering and who, unlike Gray, was able to understand the circuitry.
Peter Lindemann points out that Ed Gray’s power conversion tube circuit is effectively a copy of Nikola Tesla’s circuit.
The Ed Gray Power System, the power tube presented to the public by Edwin Gray, operates by generating a series of very short, very sharp pulses using a spark gap.

Quote
“The amazing thing”, Hackenberger said, “is that only 1% of the energy was used — 99% went back into the battery.”
Gray explained, “The battery can last for a long time, because most of the energy returns to it. The secret to this is in the capacitors and in being able to split the positive.”

Quote
“May I prove it doesn’t come from any wall plug?” Gray offered.
A 40-watt light bulb screwed into an ordinary extension socket was plugged into the panel powered by gray’s system. The bulb lit, then Gray dropped it into a cylinder filled with water.
“What would be happening if this was getting ordinary power right now?” Gray asked, as he stuck his hand in the water with the glowing light bulb.
“You’d be electrocuted and that thing would be popping and sputtering until the fuses blew”, Wood replied.
This reporter then put his finger into the water with the light — no shock.
“Gentlemen, this is a new manifestation of electricity”, Hackenberger said.

I wanted to start a new thread outside the context of Gray's converter tube which many seem obsessed with. In my opinion it's a red herring because this is a Tesla radiant energy circuit which doesn't require a converter tube.

Here we can see there are only a few aspects we need to be concerned with...
1)This is a Tesla circuit which "operates by generating a series of very short, very sharp pulses using a spark gap".
2)"This is a new manifestation of electricity", having completely different qualities than conventional AC or DC currents, aka Tesla hairpin circuit.
3)The radiant energy circuit allows "only 1% of the energy was used — 99% went back into the battery".

So why were countless people turning this into a science/electronics project spending years chasing down and studying every pointless and irrelevant detail ad nauseam?. I can only conclude most were either not paying attention or purposely trying to mislead others.

AC


« Last Edit: 2022-10-01, 19:26:38 by Allcanadian »


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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Re: Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor « Reply #1 on: 2022-10-02, 01:57:36 »
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Regardless of validity, this concept car is one of the most beautiful examples of car engineering i have seen.

More importantly, current  EV technology and cad processes could make use of this configuration very well .

Thanks for bringing this to light.


It is a shame that the center front wheels would track in the oil spoil t center of our roads .
Aerodynamically, it ticks many boxes.
   
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Re: Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor « Reply #2 on: 2022-10-02, 10:29:00 »

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Power from the high-voltage section is put through a system of electrical circuitry to produce a series of high-voltage ‘energy spikes’. The spikes are transferred to a small control unit, which in turn operates the major motor unit. The control unit, acting in a manner similar to that of a distributor in an internal combustion engine, regulates the spikes, determines their polarity (whether they be north or south) and directs their power to selected electromagnets in the main unit.

The electromagnets are located on both the rotor and stator of the large motor. Attraction and repulsion between the two sets of magnets causes the motor to operate and generate horsepower.

The programmer directs which magnets are to be energized for what length of time and in what polarity. There are several attractions and repulsion taking pace at the same time.

Ordinary electric motors use continuous power. In this system, energy is used only during a small fraction of a millisecond.

These remarks could equally apply to the Holcomb motor.  Maybe it's not radiant energy via spark gaps (none in the Holcomb devices) but energy released from the ferromagnetic material in the electromagnets due to the use of fast pulses.  The motor is claimed to run cool.

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Re: Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor « Reply #3 on: 2022-10-02, 16:49:13 »

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If you take a pair of electromagnets doing work an attraction mode, ignoring the energy needed to charge them and ignoring resistive losses, the mechanical energy gained is equal to the electrical energy fed into the coil, and that is the current multiplied by the induced voltage due to the flux change in the coil over the time period of the movement.  Do the same thing with electromagnets in repulsion and you get the same answer.  Do the same things with magnets and the energy gained is equal to the surface current equivalent for the magnet multiplied by the voltage induced into the surface current.  F6 doesn't agree but that tells me the energy is gained from the electron spins responsible for the magnetism.  Now with these claims for pulsed electromagnets I have been looking at what happens of the cores are square loop material.  Then we have magnets that are switched between two states, one being the reverse of the other.  Looks interesting.

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Re: Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor « Reply #4 on: 2022-10-02, 17:07:18 »
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I did engage a long time builder yesterday ( he has been on hard times lately)
However I believe it would be good if this topic could model some experiments?

I am trying to encourage him back to the bench …
He is a wonderful builder and researcher!

Respectfully
Chet K
   
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Re: Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor « Reply #5 on: 2022-10-02, 18:27:29 »
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F6 doesn't agree but that tells me the energy is gained from the electron spins responsible for the magnetism.  Now with these claims for pulsed electromagnets I have been looking at what happens of the cores are square loop material.  Then we have magnets that are switched between two states, one being the reverse of the other.

Many past inventors claiming radiant energy effects similar to the Tesla/Gray setup used air coils. Ergo, if the process still works with no iron cores then we can exclude them and any related effects as being relevant. Which is good news because it simplifies everything. No iron cores, magnetic materials or electron spins are required only a voltage source, some conductors, capacitors and switch/interrupters.

Which is intriguing isn't it?, once we start removing all that isn't required we find there's not much left...

For example, "the new manifestation of electricity”, Hackenberger was referring to relates to the Tesla hair pin circuit which is actually a Lecher Line(Ernst Lecher,1888). It was also claimed that a Russian showed Gray this Tesla circuit. Ergo, were looking for a Tesla circuit which is similar to a Lecher line. Of course I knew immediately which Tesla circuit they were referring to because I have most of Tesla's patents/technology memorized.

https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/articles/high-frequency-oscillators-electro-therapeutic-and-other-purposes
High Frequency Oscillators for Electro-therapeutic and Other Purposes *
by Nikola Tesla, The Electrical Engineer, November 17th, 1898.

As we can see in Fig 3 Tesla patented the hair pin circuit and many other variations of it, hidden as therapeutic devices. This circuit proven to manifest the exact same effects as Gray's supposed circuit ie. bulbs lit under water, no shocks, superconductive properties, a new kind of electricity. Thus we can establish the connections and time line as to where and how Gray actually came to posses this technology.

Now that we have established where the real technology came from and how easy the technology is maybe we can begin to make some actual progress. Think about that, I just pointed out how to make the "new kind of electricity" which powers all these devices... the rest is up to you.

AC








 


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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Re: Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor « Reply #6 on: 2022-10-04, 01:26:10 »
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Concerning the Tesla hair pin circuit in Fig 3 above...

We can see the working conductor L is effectively shorted and the load points (c, c') attached a short distance apart. As Tesla implied, the standing wave nodes/anti-nodes having the greatest difference in (+) and (-) potential can be inches or less apart. Which in a conventional circuit becomes a rule breaker of sorts. We expect the points having the greatest difference in potential to be at the source terminals or across a circuit element like a coil or resistance. However here we can see these points could appear anywhere in a circuit including within a dead short or any circuit element. 

In conventional low voltage low frequency AC/DC circuits this effect is not rare it is literally unheard of. In conventional circuits we can use simple lumped sum analysis which is like pre-school electrodynamics but not in these kinds of circuits. Here we need to use infinite element analysis because the nodes/anti-nodes having the greatest difference in potential could be anywhere within the circuit and mobile.

So of course, when I see some nit wit trying to lumped sum model a coil as a separate resistor and inductor in these circuits I want to pull my !@#$ing hair out because it's beyond amateur.

We could think of it this way, when we measure the voltage across a battery we are actually measuring the "difference in potential" between the two terminals/potentials. For example, you may measure 12v with a DMM/DSO but my electrometer array measures +6 on the positive terminal and -6 on the negative terminal separately, the difference is 12. Now imagine the +6 and -6 we measured at the terminals could appear at any point in the circuit and be mobile. Well, it's now a complete shit show because a DMM is useless and a DSO would always give a false reading. Imagine a common battery circuit, now imagine the battery moving around the circuit like an electron, what do you think your DSO connected at any two points would measure?. Well, you would have literally no idea because the "difference in two separate potentials" could be generating/dissipating/transforming anywhere.

Which is why almost all of the conventional measuring devices like a DMM, DSO and power/spectrum analyzers are basically useless. All these devices were invented to measure a static source and changing variables within the circuit aka Kirchhoff's laws. Don't get me wrong, I'm a nerd and like fiddling around with complex stuff but most of our measuring devices are basically useless. To be honest I'm not sure what kind of measurement tech is up to the job and it's beyond my pay grade.

AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Re: Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor « Reply #7 on: 2022-10-04, 18:04:38 »
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I should point out the new concepts introduced so far won't produce free energy. That's not how invention works and F6FLT touched on the reasons why. In order to succeed we need to look past replication ie. don't blindly follow anyone, it seldom if ever works and we need to make a plan.
The Plan.
1)Form new idea's based on new insight or understanding, learn something new.
2)Form concepts based on all the individual idea's.
3)Design and build a proof of concept to determine whether were moving in the right direction or not, learn more.
4)Continually repeating a failed concept is a lesson in failure. So when we fail we should go back to step 1, rethink everything and formulate a new plan.

With the Tesla/Gray technology the starting point (learn something new) should be obvious. The circuit is of little interest and it's the "new kind of electricity" ie. super conduction were after. The circuit is simply a means to an end and we should start at the beginning with Tesla's hair pin circuit. I used a MOT or ignition transformer, DIY aluminum flashing/plastic parallel plate capacitors and a quenched spark gap, it cost about $30 to setup. Make your own HV plate capacitors so they can be adjusted, everything should be adjustable.

We can also use a HV non-contact charge/node detector using NE2 neon's to visualize electric fields.
https://hackaday.com/2020/03/04/visualizing-energy-fields-with-a-neon-bulb-array/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E25aX0w7C7I&t=34s
Visualizing Invisible Energy Fields (Using a Neon array)

The Plasma Channel on youtube is brilliant because he is a real person performing real experiments designed to teach new concepts. More important it's based on visual experiences and our brain is hardwired for this kind of input. Forget your DMM and DSO because there useless, we want tactile and visual experiences, to feel and see real things. Pretending to play scientist with equations and expensive equipment is a lesson in failure, we want tangible learning experiences. I would recommend watching all these video's because this is the field of technology most relevant to FE devices. https://www.youtube.com/c/PlasmaChannel/videos

For example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PjUz5mimXs, DIY iPhone Oscilloscope : Hidden frequencies Revealed
Oh wow, not only are there layers of frequencies present but the plasma can also generate sound waves. Could we utilize these electrical and/or sound waves in some way like a parametric effect?. I could easily imagine hundreds of different plasma experiments I would like to do based on this video alone.

AC



















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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Re: Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor « Reply #8 on: 2022-10-06, 17:32:21 »
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Here is some excellent background information on Tesla and the hairpin circuit by Nick Kraakman at waveguide.blog
https://waveguide.blog/tesla-hairpin-circuit-stout-copper-bars-replication/

This is cool video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlx7tDNXYR8

In the article/video's we can see Tesla's claims were in fact true and he did understand this advanced technology very well. Here's the kicker, even today I would imagine only 1% of electrical engineers/experts are familiar with this phenomena. This is true because these are considered parasitic or transient effects everyone is trying there best to avoid. It's quite literally the last thing on anyone's mind, more so in our digital/computerized world.

AC






---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Re: Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor « Reply #9 on: 2022-10-14, 17:57:40 »
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Here are few HV effects directly related to the operation of the Gray device...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9kKJoC6e3w
Plasma Explosions Warped 400X Slower ( Phantom Camera vs Tesla Coil ⚡)

In the picture below labelled plasma striations we can see a zebra pattern due to variations in the surface charges. In nature these wave like striations are found everywhere however they are never included in lumped sum modelling. The surface charge is falsely assumed to be uniform when in fact it is never uniform. The surface is a charge mosaic, forming clumps or large groups of like charges similar to magnetic domains. In effect, the uniformity most have been taught is a lie and nature is never uniform and seldom if ever follows straight lines.

In the picture below labelled capacitor discharge we can see a capacitor being shorted and blowing hot charged material in every direction. In effect this is very similar to the concept of radiant matter. What most don't see is the fact that the ejected material closest to the nearest pole is charged like so (-)--- -- - 0 + ++ +++(+). The charge distribution is never uniform, nothing is uniform in nature, and some of the ejected material are charge carriers. Radiant matter is simply millions of much smaller particles carrying a very high surface charge.

Looking at both pictures we can begin to see where most went wrong and many made false assumptions. Lumped sum modelling and general calculations don't work because most of the important stuff is acting on a lower much more complex level. It's not a uniform surface charge but waves of varying charge density with charge carriers being ejected from the high density wave peaks. Not unlike an ocean wave which grows then breaks over becoming a mixture of water and air.

This is why people like Faraday and Maxwell concluded they needed to dumb everything down in order to be able to calculate and better understand stuff. They purposely excluded the majority of effects/phenomena they theorized were actually present because it was infinitely complex and impossible to calculate. Understand, this does not mean it doesn't exist it means it was excluded for simplicity. It's amazing so few people clued in, lumped sum means to lump everything together and ignore all the finer details. Ergo, to cherry pick facts for expediency...

AC

« Last Edit: 2022-10-14, 20:06:57 by Allcanadian »


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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Re: Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor « Reply #10 on: 2022-10-14, 20:33:13 »

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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2022-10-14, 17:57:40
Looking at both pictures we can begin to see where most went wrong and many made false assumptions. Lumped sum modelling and general calculations don't work because most of the important stuff is acting on a lower much more complex level.

A scientist relying too heavily on statistics might conclude that sticking house keys into the wall outlet is perfectly safe, because the average voltage between each terminal is 0v. :P


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Re: Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor « Reply #11 on: 2022-10-15, 17:41:44 »
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Looking at all the information posted in the other Gray threads raises a lot of questions...

If Gray already had a working "black box" technology to power AC devices then why bother with motors?. The black box device proves they already had a motionless FE generator and a motor/generator wasn't required. So the motor technology seems redundant when most of the other FE inventors simply built a generator then connected an off the shelf AC motor as required. For example, Hubbard built a generator which could power anything then attached a 40hp motor after the fact.

I have little interest in the motor or conversion tubes when the holy grail of free energy, a motionless black box device, was invented first. I want to know whats in that black box. With that tech we could easily power/heat our house and charge an EV.

Logically, knowing the black box tech came first the motor tech is probably a modification of the original tech given to Gray. They had the black box tech then modified it to pop some coils then used what they learned to build a motor. Many inventors modify an existing idea/tech then make it overly complex to hide and protect there intellectual property. I suspect Gray on seeing how absurdly simple the original tech was concluded he couldn't protect it with a patent so he started building motors.

I also suspect Gray couldn't patent the black box tech because it was already patented by many other FE inventors. At first I thought this tech might be unique but now I see it's using the same principals as most other FE devices. So the magical tubes, coils and ignitron switches are little more than a distraction, smoke and mirrors. The real tech revolves around "a new form of electricity" and splitting the positive/negative aka regeneration.

However it's not a total waste of time and now I can see the merits of popping/repulsion coils to determine the output power/regeneration. It's super simple versus trying to measure HV/HF currents which tend to obliterate most electronics. We can simply calculate the work (FxD) on the moving coil and measure the voltage(CV^2) ergo energy on the regeneration capacitor.

AC







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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Re: Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor « Reply #12 on: 2022-10-15, 20:16:33 »
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I think in black box there is not much more then Tesla method of conversion. In his lectures between 1891-1893 he described  coils working from single wire without return and imho this is what popping coils is based on. The radiant energy is nothing more then radio waves but propagating longitudinally in medium (different then Hertzian waves). We know medium very well - it is Earth magnetic field.  It would be quite simple for Kapanadze or Barbosa and Leal to explain it , because I believe they had a working prototype. I only have a simple theory.
   
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Re: Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor « Reply #13 on: 2022-10-15, 21:54:49 »
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I think in black box there is not much more then Tesla method of conversion. In his lectures between 1891-1893 he described  coils working from single wire without return and imho this is what popping coils is based on. The radiant energy is nothing more then radio waves but propagating longitudinally in medium (different then Hertzian waves). We know medium very well - it is Earth magnetic field.  It would be quite simple for Kapanadze or Barbosa and Leal to explain it , because I believe they had a working prototype. I only have a simple theory.

I would tend to agree conceptually however RF is a large spectrum of phenomena. According to my calculations Tesla was producing impulses exceeding 7 GHz at thousands of volts in his hairpin circuit. This based on his description of the distance between nodes/anti-nodes which is the half wavelength of the operating frequency. Think of the average router running at three times the frequency and able to transmit kilowatts of energy. This was deemed a medical device and who knows what his large scale power transmission system was running at.

Think of it this way, the wavelength at 60Hz is around 5000 km but with Tesla's technology were talking about wavelengths around a couple inches or less. So we have a shorted length of conductor and we place the leads of a 100w bulb an inch apart and it light up. Remember the bird on a high tension wire analogy where it's okay because the difference in potential between it's feet is very low?. In this case the bird lights up like a christmas tree because it's feet are now on the points of max potential difference.

AC






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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Re: Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor « Reply #14 on: 2022-10-22, 17:38:11 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2022-10-15, 21:54:49
...
According to my calculations Tesla was producing impulses exceeding 7 GHz at thousands of volts in his hairpin circuit.
...

Can you provide this calculation? RF is my thing.


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"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
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Re: Ed Gray’s Radiant Energy Motor « Reply #15 on: 2022-10-23, 13:58:59 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2022-10-15, 21:54:49
forest
According to my calculations Tesla was producing impulses exceeding 7 GHz at thousands of volts in his hairpin circuit.

How did he do it having no modern semiconductor technologies at hand? Don't get me wrong. I'm not here to prove you false, I'm just interested in an pragmatic approach to create HV impules in the range of 1 - 500 MHz. If you have insights please share it with me.

Kind regards
Hendrik
   
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