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OverUnity Research > Motors > Miscellaneous Motors > Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator"
2023-12-06, 17:57:40
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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #25 on: 2022-12-19, 15:20:20 »

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Quote from: F6FLT on 2022-12-19, 14:14:27
I have always been very surprised at the need for a battery for a "free energy" device.
Knowing your interest in using the magnetic vector potential for exotic effects I think the opposite polarity ions moving through an electrolyte could offer something interesting if there is such an A field there.  I am not aware that anyone has studied this.  Note that a charged particle Q in an A field has electromagnetic momentum QA and its movement will be affected by any change of momentum hence change in A across the electrolyte.  Thus a battery may be there not as a power source but as a source of moving ions.  Plasma would be a better ion source for exotic effects as the velocities are much greater.

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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #26 on: 2022-12-20, 00:44:03 »
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As Mark Twain once said,
"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction".

"Of all God's creatures, there is only one that cannot be made slave of the leash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve the man, but it would deteriorate the cat."

I have built many impulse motors like the one in question and it would be a good start towards the Adams motor/generator.

I can show you a few tricks to help you get a good start. My favorite switching combo is the 2N2222a and IRFP460 mosfet in a Darlington configuration as in your circuit. The transistor/mosfet combo doesn't look like much on paper but seem to outperform there specs for some reason.

On switching I learned a few tricks not found the tetbooks. We want very short HV impulses for efficiency but most call for mosfet drivers for fast switching which are problematic. We can easily produce impulses or oscillations down into the nanosecond range by using two switches. First a magnetic sensor and transistor/mosfet switch to close the circuit. Then a second mosfet switch to detect the gate voltage on the first mosfet opening the circuit. Now the actual switching time is the difference between the first and second mosfet thus it can have any value. Any value independent of one mosfets on/off transition time down to a few nanoseconds. In effect it's a battle, one switch is trying to close as the other is simultaneously trying to open.

Where many go wrong is playing around with low voltage and the input voltage should be near the tolerances of the components. The higher the voltage the lower the resistance losses associated with high currents. High current is for amateurs because it always produces high losses, ie. our coils get hot. We do not want to build a space heater we want to build the most efficient motor we can.

Once we have a super efficient motor we can start building a super efficient generator and start considering a mechanism for gain to drive it over COP>1. However first we want to get as close to COP=1 as we can. We build up to COP=1 then cross the line into a gain scenario.

AC



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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #27 on: 2022-12-20, 17:00:10 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2022-12-19, 15:20:20
Knowing your interest in using the magnetic vector potential for exotic effects I think the opposite polarity ions moving through an electrolyte could offer something interesting if there is such an A field there.  I am not aware that anyone has studied this.  Note that a charged particle Q in an A field has electromagnetic momentum QA and its movement will be affected by any change of momentum hence change in A across the electrolyte.  Thus a battery may be there not as a power source but as a source of moving ions.  Plasma would be a better ion source for exotic effects as the velocities are much greater.

Smudge

This seems an interesting way to go. I have started to make a quantified assessment of what can be expected. I will make a second answer.


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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #28 on: 2022-12-20, 19:24:43 »

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F6FLT- I am just following the design - once I have everything exact, I want to try running the circuit via 7w buck converter fed from store directly - eliminating the need for a drive battery, then later try substituting the store batteries themselves with a batt-cap.

Smudge- Thankyou for the elaboration - No access to a stable plasma stream here unfortunately though  ;D


Allcanadian- They definitely are in a league of their own as a species ! They might just have the best evolutionary niche on the planet lol .. Mysterious creatures indeed. Thankyou for the info - had never even heard of a Darlington config before - every little bit of info is helpful like that. Interesting how 2 bjt's/fets/etc will function better as a sum of their conjunction; somewhat akin to how fets' are paralleled in an inverter to handle more current on output, or how capacitors in parallel will provide the lowest denomination of capacity (Neither article being immediately self evident to the uninitiated)


I am trying to figure out what's limiting my rotor rpm and subsequent frequency of output - I believe it's partly the bearings (despite being very smooth) partly the core hysteresis, and partly the Darlington config, although given your previous reply, also having copied the proposed & finalized design exactly, and also presuming 2sc5353 and irf840 are compatible in this arrangement - I would hope it's a simple matter of a pot of the bjt instead of the 500R. Lots to try when it's built as suggested and tests have been conducted.
« Last Edit: 2023-03-07, 03:39:37 by Renaissance Rising »


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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #29 on: 2022-12-21, 11:39:03 »
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Quote from: Renaissance Rising on 2022-12-20, 19:24:43
F6FLT- I am just following the design - once I have everything exact, I want to try running the circuit via 7w buck converter fed from store directly - eliminating the need for a drive battery, then later try substituting the store batteries themselves with a batt-cap.
...

I can't recommend a better project.  Removing batteries should be the target of everyone who wants to be sure to face OU.   O0


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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #30 on: 2022-12-21, 13:26:56 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2022-12-19, 15:20:20
Knowing your interest in using the magnetic vector potential for exotic effects I think the opposite polarity ions moving through an electrolyte could offer something interesting if there is such an A field there.  I am not aware that anyone has studied this.  Note that a charged particle Q in an A field has electromagnetic momentum QA and its movement will be affected by any change of momentum hence change in A across the electrolyte.  Thus a battery may be there not as a power source but as a source of moving ions.  Plasma would be a better ion source for exotic effects as the velocities are much greater.

Smudge
I replied eslewhere because off topic here:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4408.0


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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #31 on: 2022-12-26, 18:33:52 »

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Quote from: F6FLT on 2022-12-21, 11:39:03
I can't recommend a better project.  Removing batteries should be the target of everyone who wants to be sure to face OU.   O0


What would you suggest in their stead? (assuming the rest of the circuit stays the same) Battery capacitors ? or would regular electrolytic / ceramic be ok, and if so which? or should I use a combination of both / all?? Or would something else entirely work better and capture the radiant output more effectively? (barring plasma, which I can't readily produce) - I'm open to suggestions and can source parts as needed.


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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #32 on: 2023-01-04, 13:45:35 »
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Quote from: Renaissance Rising on 2022-12-26, 18:33:52
What would you suggest in their stead? (assuming the rest of the circuit stays the same) Battery capacitors ? or would regular electrolytic / ceramic be ok, and if so which? or should I use a combination of both / all?? Or would something else entirely work better and capture the radiant output more effectively? (barring plasma, which I can't readily produce) - I'm open to suggestions and can source parts as needed.

In the devices supposed to produce OU, there is usually a cycle that is repeated, for example a signal at frequency F.

Each cycle being identical, if OU is globally generated, it is because it is generated a little at each cycle.

It is therefore sufficient for the energy buffer to hold a significant level during a period of the signal. If, for example, the system has a cycle of 50 Hz, the buffer must be maintained for 20 ms. If it is 1 MHz, holding it for 1µs is sufficient.
It is therefore understood that a capacitor is largely sufficient for an electrical OU device, for example 470 nF for 1 MHz, a few thousand µF for 50 Hz, to be specified according to the current required. If a battery is needed, we can be sure that the device is wrong.





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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #33 on: 2023-01-06, 01:03:17 »

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Info much appreciated - thankyou . Good to know there's a formula for this.

Am I right in saying that motor run capacitors could be used for this purpose of looping the output as well as providing "useful output" alongside a "comparator" circuit, or similar? - I have a 400v / 470uf run cap that I intend to capture the output with (Got my eye on 6x 10F 80v caps, to make the comparator Bedini used, 80v/60F (he used 4x 15F's), although they're pricey) - could I perhaps build a custom buck converter to take that 400v and step it down to a voltage acceptable to the circuit (Having now done more testing, 12v causes the coil to heat up - I'd consider using maybe 9 or lower - 24v gives a serious boost to the output ("1200"v+ from around "300v" on 12v) but the coil gets way too hot after a few minutes (100c+)  I assume because the dipole is broken for less time in each cycle, due the the higher voltage, resulting in a lower efficiency in this design and more hysteresis, although this is assumption. perhaps it could be designed for 24v or higher? or maybe I just need to adjust the input waveform / duty cycle to minimize current?

Not sure the meter is reading true results , as John Bedini said, don't trust the dmm's, but I have no other options atm, except lighting a CFL bulb which requires 400v to light up - which it does, brightly, when connected between mosfet D&S.

It's an 18w bulb so should be pulling 1.5A ish from the battery at 12v, which it is not (70ma. draw, unaffected by bulb) Which to me says that it is not acting purely as a crude boost - buck.

Plus then there's the mechanical work being done (rotor spinning at 2.2k.rpm) , which Bedini said was actually the "free" energy in his designs, the charging aspect being merely an efficient and logical thing to do, seeing as a dump would be needed otherwise to protect circuitry.

If I can link up a gearing reduction mechanism and an efficient B/L generator to the rotor to get high RPM, I may well be looking at a gain here.

As I understand it, when you burn oil/gas/"spit neutrons" etc and spin a turbine, the forces exerted by combustion only provide the condition under which magnet fields rip past coil fields, and churn up the ether.. going by that logic, If I am having X amount of mechanical torque being provided by x/2 amount of input, then I have elbow room for generation inefficiencies. "Kerklonkity" is OK by me if it's O/U, lol

I have discovered that this design will spin TWO rotors, one S out and one N out, with the same coil and not affecting input current, so I can get double the mechanical output, once configured. Then there's the coil G & H fields (I think) that Bedini was also capturing with his 10 coiler, using that big copper rod bent around the back of it.. Also , the HDD platter has a BL motor in it, that I have wired up ready to rig a circuit for harvesting its' output also via transient spikes, using an Imhotep style pc fan circuit. If I collect the energy from these peripheral sources and collect them efficiently in order to power the mechanism, with gain, then this design is obviously well worthy of replication and thorough investigation by more capable persons than myself- THAT,I would very much like to see.

I will upload a thorough report on progress soon, in the hopes that it garners some interest and I can get some feedback & support.. Lots on atm, life gets in the way of the work.


Currently doing the first actual test, the way that is implied in the PK video. Charging 3 batteries instead of 7 as 4 units turned out to be bunk and voltage goes to nothing immediately upon loading (8 yr old and badly stored)
However this should not affect the test in any way, and the video says "up to 7 batteries" and voltage between D&S in operation is stable regardless of how many are connected. (open circuit reads as much more, as you'd expect)

I really appreciate any feedback I get on this.


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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #34 on: 2023-01-08, 00:14:08 »
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I reproduced several variations of the South African designs from Patrick Kelly book. They seemed pretty straightforward. I even corresponded a bit with Mr Kelly before he passed away and he was very encouraging. Anyhow, I was never able to get the circuits/to go over 100% efficiency. I’ll be curious to see if you have success with them. If you get the switching to work efficiently you’ll get up close to 90% power recovery.  If the rotor spins fast enough you’ll get induction charging via the drive coil but not enough to surpass 100%. My conclusion was they don’t work as advertised else others would be able to successfully replicate. Still they are a good tool to learn about dc motors and circuit design.
   
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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #35 on: 2023-01-08, 17:15:10 »

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Thankyou for the info - Good to know that others have tried, at least.
I now realize that solid state is where it's at with the electrical designs - otherwise it's just taming entropy so to speak.

If I may ask - what was Edward like ? Would've been great to have met / spoke to him myself before his passing.
Very interesting character.

The Tiny Generator certainly has been a good learning experience for me as something of a novice to all this, even if it doesn't deliver the "advertised" results. I never expected anything spectacular despite the claims, but the fact that it's producing such a high voltage with so little input is useful in itself for other upcoming experiments / projects I have in mind.

As F6FLT has mentioned, I believe this could still be a good model to play around with different capacitor types / values instead of the supposed VRLA's.

I don't have much faith in these old batteries, I think they let the design down and put people off it (most expensive part) wasting some 50% of what they receive, seems far less than ideal, even if the "COP is in the batteries" as Bedini said, and negative charging is a different process altogether, it's a clumsy and drawn out, extensive PITA process - I want to keep it as simple as possible really, for various reasons. I didn't want to stray from the original design, having copied it precisely and had custom parts made etc, but I now see that it's needed given this reply.

Would much rather attempt mechanical / rotary amplification off the rotor body, or store & use the radiant output as heat through a timed capacitor discharge circuit, or something else more direct than a battery. Any ideas are welcome as I am now at the stage of the design where I have tried what's suggested (Almost identical parts set, coil values etc) and am happy to plug ideas.

I will upload pics of the model soon, and what I have tried so far and the results to the new thread I started on this topic.


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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #36 on: 2023-01-08, 17:35:06 »

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I too built my own version of a “ window “ motor/generator nearly 15 years ago. Spurred on by an alleged self runner that was presented at OU. Com at that time.

Needless to say it ran continuously for 3 months before I gave up with it. The single sealed 7 AH LAB’s voltage dropped to 8.2 VDC and then remained there. I had achieved a “ unity “ situation ( IMO ) but despite many tinkering’s couldn’t get any extra from the DUT.

My control system was purely mechanical ( commutator ) with diodes to capture the BEMF.

Cheers Graham.


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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #37 on: 2023-01-08, 18:13:38 »

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Quote from: Grumage on 2023-01-08, 17:35:06
I too built my own version of a “ window “ motor/generator nearly 15 years ago. Spurred on by an alleged self runner that was presented at OU. Com at that time.

Needless to say it ran continuously for 3 months before I gave up with it. The single sealed 7 AH LAB’s voltage dropped to 8.2 VDC and then remained there. I had achieved a “ unity “ situation ( IMO ) but despite many tinkering’s couldn’t get any extra from the DUT.

My control system was purely mechanical ( commutator ) with diodes to capture the BEMF.

Cheers Graham.

Awesome, thanks for sharing. Good to know of another report of a mechanical device achieving COP : 1.
Suffice to say in my opinion, you should use what you learned and give it another go !
Would be great to see a mk2. Were any capacitors used? and if not, why?

In Tom Beardens' "Matters Arising" (I think) he essentially states that potential IS power - capacitors seem to be the way to go IMO, given their charge/discharge characteristics and they've never been cheaper / better quality than they are these days.


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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #38 on: 2023-01-09, 19:56:28 »
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I only corresponded maybe 3 or 4 times over email, sent photos back and forth, etc.  He was very kind and encouraging and sent over a few documents from his book - actually some where chapters not in the book that I can send you if you like.  Nonetheless, the content was similar to the chapter on Tiny Generator and the South African generator.  He was convinced the guy in SA had a 150watt OU device and that I should copy it to the letter of the law.  He noted that others had tried replications and failed but he concluded they didn't copy it 100% but rather made their own variations.  (of which to be fair I did as well - made the rotor a little larger, used different transistors, etc.) 

He stated that pulsing coils and collecting the spikes was a way of drawing power from the local environment and moreover that electrical flow was not necessarily electrons from the power company but rather the power company created a signal that drew the power in from the surrounding environment.  So you can see he had some unconventional ideas on how electricity worked.  Nonetheless he seemed to really believe in what he published.  I don't think he intentionally was misleading people but rather didn't build the designs he published and so had no way of validating they worked.


Quote from: Renaissance Rising on 2023-01-08, 17:15:10
Thankyou for the info - Good to know that others have tried, at least.
I now realize that solid state is where it's at with the electrical designs - otherwise it's just taming entropy so to speak.

If I may ask - what was Edward like ? Would've been great to have met / spoke to him myself before his passing.
Very interesting character.

The Tiny Generator certainly has been a good learning experience for me as something of a novice to all this, even if it doesn't deliver the "advertised" results. I never expected anything spectacular despite the claims, but the fact that it's producing such a high voltage with so little input is useful in itself for other upcoming experiments / projects I have in mind.

As F6FLT has mentioned, I believe this could still be a good model to play around with different capacitor types / values instead of the supposed VRLA's.

I don't have much faith in these old batteries, I think they let the design down and put people off it (most expensive part) wasting some 50% of what they receive, seems far less than ideal, even if the "COP is in the batteries" as Bedini said, and negative charging is a different process altogether, it's a clumsy and drawn out, extensive PITA process - I want to keep it as simple as possible really, for various reasons. I didn't want to stray from the original design, having copied it precisely and had custom parts made etc, but I now see that it's needed given this reply.

Would much rather attempt mechanical / rotary amplification off the rotor body, or store & use the radiant output as heat through a timed capacitor discharge circuit, or something else more direct than a battery. Any ideas are welcome as I am now at the stage of the design where I have tried what's suggested (Almost identical parts set, coil values etc) and am happy to plug ideas.

I will upload pics of the model soon, and what I have tried so far and the results to the new thread I started on this topic.
   
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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #39 on: 2023-01-09, 22:02:28 »

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Yes, please do send those chapters over! That would be awesome  👍

I have trawled the web for extra info on this base design and particular method of switching and found very little besides the info put out by Aaron Murakami, Lindemann, Bedini, Dollard and others which is where I presume the SA inventor got a lot of his knowledge from to start with. It's based on Tesla's impulse technology, more or less, as far as I can tell, which is one of the effects that Bedini was using, so there is a wealth of information to go through and find new ideas to try.

There's lots of energy being wasted in the original TG design - mine draws 70ma. which whilst nothing compared with the draw were it run via normal driver circuit - air coil scavengers could be used around the rotor body for example, inductive charge generated would lessen current draw. The HDD motor itself could be used in the same way .  A 100k rotary pot instead of the 1K would give control over impulse duration. Supercapacitors could be used instead of batteries, for a more clear vision of energy flow and where it's being wasted. There's a huge number of things that could be tried to improve its already impressive function, given its simplicity, even if it's not quite there yet.

I copied it as precisely as I could (IRF840, 2SC5353, 10.6ohm coil, 3x5 stacks of 20mmx3mm ferrite magnets, exact diodes and resistors ) with the exception of 3 batteries instead of the suggest (up-to) 7, as Bedini stated, they need to be discharged to 1v or lower before the radiant charge, for it to be effective - still trying to source the final 3 cheaply as the used ones I bought turned out to be no mostly good (5/13 are good, the rest won't charge by traditional SPS and I assume they're past any form of rejuvenation at this point)

I'm sure Patrick was nothing but genuine personally, seemed like a great guy and I have him to thank for waking me up to how simple it should be to procure these things ourselves.

« Last Edit: 2023-03-04, 16:46:27 by Renaissance Rising »


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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #40 on: 2023-03-04, 17:16:25 »

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I have left this project "on the backburner" for now. (If only in terms of practical experimentation)



It would appear as though, despite much research and the device being built to spec, I still lack knowledge in order to capture the output effectively, and I have yet to make a focused effort on reconditioning batteries for said capture.

As my recent understanding has it, there actually are other, more capable people working on this particular design than myself, and I have nothing to lose by resuming the work as new information arises from said source.


I was kindly sent documentation (By E.H.) done by Julian Perry who has built the more elaborate version of the SATG (5 coil SS Version) and is thoroughly exploring the ins' & outs' of its characteristics.

It seems that they are far better equipped to explore the effects produced than I currently am.

I will be contacting them soon, and I'll ask if they mind me sharing the document on this thread.
I will also be enquiring as to any advice they may have to effectively loop my model and produce useable output.
(In the paper they claim that later this year, an update will be released with results of practical tests )



I did successfully loop operation with capacitors, but voltage dropped gradually, suggesting many upgrades are to be made, to which I am mostly blind not knowing the base theory well enough to understand what's happening.

Could be that it needs a 1n4007 instead of a 1n4148 - could be the coil needs redoing - could be the batteries - maybe I need a better MOSFET with less clamping action and higher V rating?

I did happen to buy exactly the same capacitor bank as Julian purchased, by chance too, having bought them first off a guess then seeing the document, I was taken aback by the coincidence.  ???

A thought I have had which may be worth mention is, Bedini spoke about the Bloch Wall, and said that the "Radiant Charge" enters in through it, into the windings of the coil.

I wonder if there would be any way to modify a coil or use some form collector around it to concentrate this effect, if what he said is accurate then maybe this would enhance the output.

The best way I can describe the operation of the SATG is that it acts as an "electrostatic energy sump", and creates a "negative electrical pressure" into which natures pre-existing charge is able to "pour" just for a very brief moment.
Only the form is unusable to most modern appliances, particularly digital ones.

The unit I built DOES however, rejuvenate NIMH/NICAD seemingly very well.

(More tests on this are due at some point in the future)

Included is the ORIGINAL SATG document which you will not find on the internet, for whatever reason, TMK it does not exist in PDF form on any of Patricks' several websites, only here.

Will post some pictures of where I got to in terms of progress, need to dig them out.




« Last Edit: 2023-03-07, 03:45:53 by Renaissance Rising »


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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #41 on: 2023-03-05, 00:44:07 »

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Overview of build


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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #42 on: 2023-03-05, 00:46:20 »

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Trigger Circuit


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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #43 on: 2023-03-05, 00:51:23 »

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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #44 on: 2023-03-05, 01:02:32 »

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Trigger Circuit, Shot #2


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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #45 on: 2023-03-05, 01:04:18 »

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Effects of Radiant output visualized  O0


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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #46 on: 2023-03-05, 01:13:39 »

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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #47 on: 2023-03-05, 01:17:43 »

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Be the change you wish to see in the world
95v Neon bulb, 12v input


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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #48 on: 2023-03-05, 01:24:03 »

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Be the change you wish to see in the world
Another persons' Tiny Generator I stumbled across.


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Re: Patrick Kelly "A Tiny Generator" « Reply #49 on: 2023-03-05, 01:41:30 »

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Be the change you wish to see in the world
My own rendition:


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