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OverUnity Research > Benches > Vidura (Moderator: Vidura) > Concepts and principles of OU devices.
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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #75 on: 2023-01-20, 21:13:48 »
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First a clarification, the TC or Kacher is a resonant system, not to be considered as transformers. Despite that the secondary voltage depends on the turns ratio, but it also depends on the Q factor, thus the voltage can rise much higher than in a transformer, energy is added cycle by cycle. Also the output should not be measured just adding a load in series, as any extra component will change the resonant frequency and characteristics of the setup. Better would be a DC input measurement with appropriate filters.
For fig.4 I could imagine that by the scalar wave emitted on the hot end of the resonator a transfer to L3 would be possible. If all parameters are set up correctly, then the required 90° phase shift of  potential could occur, and a positive feedback achieved.
Similar in fig.5 provided that the hot end is set up under the L3 coil. As there is no grounding indicated on L3, it is not likely to get a significant power level for dielectric coupling of the coils, and magnetic coupling is not there, on the hot end will be no current.
To connect a load directly to the TC, with or without capacitor makes no sense to me, it will only dampening the oscillations.
That incandescent bulbs are brighter at HF is normal, due to the agitations of the contained gas, and they are eventually overheating and fuse even at rated current.
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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #76 on: 2023-01-20, 22:49:36 »

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Quote from: Vidura on 2023-01-20, 15:06:49
About Don Smith and the Solovay papers I would agree with F6 . As on paper anything can be written,and  it won't cry or protest so it remains there. It is worrying that so many people just swallow this kind of unfounded formulism and senseless blabbering without questioning or verifying it. The pity is that other more serious research is falling into notoriety.
Anyway, focussing on the subject of the thread again, it has to be noted very clearly, that of a resonant system can not be extracted more energy that the amount needed to support the resonance less losses. The only way this can happen, is when a continuous restorage from the environment is present. And this does not come from resonance alone, otherwise there would be millions of replications already. It is necessary to look for the mechanism how this inflow of energy happens.
@ Grumpy, if you could post  a screenshot of the schematic diagram, we could analyze in context of physics and radio engineering.
Vidura.

I am the one who found the Ukrainian paper. I checked with the Ukrainian agricultural institute and found that the professor who was mentoring, did actually exist, or at least his name and office were listed in the University web site.
We do not have resonance alone. We have HV resonance which you should understand creates plasma.
Plasma consists of atoms which have had  an electron forcibly removed. Therefore the Solovey device is operating in a sea of homeless electrons.
The capacitor addition appears to be a way that those electrons can enter the device. What is necessary is for those with access to university equipment to replicate the effect.
Please try and be civil in your comments.


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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #77 on: 2023-01-21, 09:35:22 »
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I had fun with plasmas in the air a few years ago. I had made a simple LC circuit with an end plate. Near the plate, I injected current into the air from a tip connected to a very high voltage DC source.

The system oscillated, the oscillation could be produced up to a frequency of about 2MHz, with a voltage > 10 KV, which could then be lowered to about 8 KV once the oscillation was triggered. It is clear that there was a negative resistance in the plasma, this is known, but as in all cases when this happens, it is a dynamic resistance (so no hope of OU, you have to polarize it, therefore to provide energy).

Here the high voltage is AC. AC can also ionize the air on the hot side of the resonant circuit if the voltage is sufficient. There is no longer a fixed current to maintain the bias around which the dynamic resistance is negative. The resistance of the circuit will depend on the applied voltage, but we will probably have the negative resistance still appearing fleetingly when the AC voltage is around that point. If the AC is at low frequency, a few tens to hundreds of KHz, oscillations at higher frequencies or distortions of the signal may therefore occur for short times around the point of negative resistance at each period of the AC

It becomes very difficult to characterize the input and output powers without tools in the RF domain capable to measure arbitrary signals. An oscilloscope with math functions would be the solution, but because of the strong ambient field, it is necessary to know how to connect it without magnetic or capacitive inductions polluting the signal of the probe, using for example double screened coaxial cables instead of probes, shielded connections... which is not within the reach of the first person, without RF experience. Don Smith had neither the technical means nor the skills to do this.
For those who would like to test the system, and thus be able to make correct measurements, I can only agree with Vidura: "Better would be a DC input measurement with appropriate filters", and output too!

If the voltage is not sufficient to obtain an ionization, then we do not really see why the elementary setups seen above would produce anything abnormal that the engineers who have been using them for decades, would not have seen.



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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #78 on: 2023-01-21, 12:25:38 »
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Please , try to stay on the scope of the topic, I would not mind too much, but there is an issue in the site, so that I can't use the splitting and merge features on my bench, and it becomes tedious to clean the topics. Therefore please carry out personal discussion in the battlefield topic. Thanks a lot.
Vidura.
   
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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #79 on: 2023-01-22, 11:44:54 »
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Sorry, but I felt like I was on topic when I followed up on aking21's post, which introduced the issue of plasma in resonant systems.
"The Idea is to guide the practical research to discover the actual physical concepts on which these devices could likely relay," you said at the beginning.
Plasmas produce negative resistances, Tesla coils and related HV resonant systems very often used in so-called "OU" devices can produce them, so plasmas and negative resistances would be a lead to answer the first question you asked in this thread:
"1.) Where does the surplus energy come from?"
It is indeed well understood that an electronic circuit is not enough, it has to tap somewhere outside to hope to recover some energy.


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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #80 on: 2023-01-22, 13:43:29 »
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Quote from: F6FLT on 2023-01-22, 11:44:54
Sorry, but I felt like I was on topic when I followed up on aking21's post, which introduced the issue of plasma in resonant systems.
"The Idea is to guide the practical research to discover the actual physical concepts on which these devices could likely relay," you said at the beginning.
Plasmas produce negative resistances, Tesla coils and related HV resonant systems very often used in so-called "OU" devices can produce them, so plasmas and negative resistances would be a lead to answer the first question you asked in this thread:
"1.) Where does the surplus energy come from?"
It is indeed well understood that an electronic circuit is not enough, it has to tap somewhere outside to hope to recover some energy.
It's ok F6
Actually the next experiments To perform to get more information about the process of excitation or ionisation. Therefore I will comment on the experiment you performed with HV also.
We can discuss about the methods of implementation in experiments here also. The Idea is the following: As in your experience it is supposed that the air around the conductor is ionised, which can be observed clearly by the appearance of Corona or streamers, the questy is how to achieve ionisation in a conductive material as copper. The setup should be such, that the strain of coulomb force would be acting upon the copper atoms. It is known from electrostatic induction, that a conductive body is polarised in presence of an electric field. If the potential is high enough, ionisation should occur. By selecting a dielectric with a higher level of ionisation than copper, it should be possible to focus the potential on the material of the conductor to explore the effects.
That the circuit in your experience started oscillating is an important observation. Of course no gain can be there, until the phaseshift potential -ionisatio level is present. Also the dissipation on the cold side of the circuit is important, like in the Stirling engine or termoacoustic resonator a gradient has to be set. At the moment I am working on the test setup and making some preliminary measurements.
If you have something documented about you experiment , or some images of the setup would be great.
Regards Vidura.
   
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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #81 on: 2023-01-23, 14:36:52 »
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@Vidura

By "ionizing a metal" you mean extracting electrons from the atoms on the surface? Because inside the metal, free electrons flow as soon as an electric field is applied, preventing a field high enough for the purpose.

I don't have a picture of my setup, it wasn't for energy research, but just for fun for RF wave generation. My HV power supply was adjustable up to 50 KV, but the oscillation was easily triggered between 15 and 22 KV when the setup was not optimized, lower otherwise. You just have to make a resonant LC circuit around the MHz, and ionize the air around the capacitor plate. Even without corona effect, about ten KV are enough to ionize air molecules, without visual effect. I don't remember very well how I made the capacitor, not even if there was a second plate but I remember that obtaining the oscillation was easy. It was a small setup, it fit in a volume of 15 or 20 cm radius,
I just did a little research on the Internet, and I am surprised not to find much about this effect.


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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #82 on: 2023-01-24, 01:14:44 »
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The idea is to test an equivalent setup for the thermoacoustic travelling wave resonator like the one shown by Igor Beletzky in the video. According to electrostatics , the electrons in a conductive body would move to the positive side of the field. Not sure if the inner atoms don't get influenced indirectly, from the surface, but anyway the radiation would be likely a superficial effect. I don't know if my flyback supply can be filtered sufficient for a strait DC output, better would be a van der Graff generator. Below attached a sketch for the setup.
   
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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #83 on: 2023-01-24, 16:44:36 »

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Quote from: F6FLT on 2023-01-23, 14:36:52
@Vidura

By "ionizing a metal" you mean extracting electrons from the atoms on the surface? Because inside the metal, free electrons flow as soon as an electric field is applied, preventing a field high enough for the purpose.

I don't have a picture of my setup, it wasn't for energy research, but just for fun for RF wave generation. My HV power supply was adjustable up to 50 KV, but the oscillation was easily triggered between 15 and 22 KV when the setup was not optimized, lower otherwise. You just have to make a resonant LC circuit around the MHz, and ionize the air around the capacitor plate. Even without corona effect, about ten KV are enough to ionize air molecules, without visual effect. I don't remember very well how I made the capacitor, not even if there was a second plate but I remember that obtaining the oscillation was easy. It was a small setup, it fit in a volume of 15 or 20 cm radius,
I just did a little research on the Internet, and I am surprised not to find much about this effect.
Try youtube you might have better luck
   
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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #84 on: 2023-01-24, 16:56:51 »
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Quote from: AlienGrey on 2023-01-24, 16:44:36
Try youtube you might have better luck

C.C


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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #85 on: 2023-01-24, 18:38:27 »

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Quote from: Vidura on 2023-01-24, 01:14:44
The idea is to test an equivalent setup for the thermoacoustic travelling wave resonator like the one shown by Igor Beletzky in the video. According to electrostatics , the electrons in a conductive body would move to the positive side of the field. Not sure if the inner atoms don't get influenced indirectly, from the surface, but anyway the radiation would be likely a superficial effect. I don't know if my flyback supply can be filtered sufficient for a strait DC output, better would be a van der Graff generator. Below attached a sketch for the setup.

Hi Vidura.

Rather than a cumbersome VDG you could try one, or several of these inexpensive HV modules. I used two in series for a couple of experiments with my Franklin motor. But the video shows just one.

https://youtu.be/kIwHqV1NpHs

https://youtu.be/koJ0qHNWlBM

Cheers Grum.


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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #86 on: 2023-01-24, 18:54:33 »
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The idea is to test an equivalent setup for the thermoacoustic travelling wave resonator like the one shown by Igor Beletzky in the video. According to electrostatics , the electrons in a conductive body would move to the positive side of the field. Not sure if the inner atoms don't get influenced indirectly, from the surface, but anyway the radiation would be likely a superficial effect. I don't know if my flyback supply can be filtered sufficient for a strait DC output, better would be a van der Graff generator. Below attached a sketch for the setup.

Interesting experiment, it's not common knowledge but the coil setup attributed to most known FE devices is not the Tesla coil but the Ruhmkorff induction coil. The Ruhmkorff coil was invented 40 years prior to the Tesla coil and led to it's development. I liked to use carbon welding rods as the electrode material for my Ruhmkorff and the switching can be so precise I could not detect any movement of the interrupter. All I would hear is a slight hissing noise and see a very small blue ball between the carbon electrodes. I think you would be impressed by it's simplicity and what it can do.

On a Van de Graaff generator, I built a 24" 500kV setup using teflon and glass rollers with a 1-1/2" latex rubber belt. I bought some cheap copper wire part cleaning brushes and cut them down for my induction brushes and used an 8" stainless sphere on top. It worked very well and there is something peculiar about the HV it produces. It's not like a rectified AC HV coil and the streamers are milder, long, very small diameter and more white than blue. The arcs also tend not to branch off out to 8" like an AC machine. I still prefer electrostatic machines and Leyden jars or homemade parallel plate capacitors to all the newer technology. There's just something about it I find old school and appealing.

AC


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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #87 on: 2023-01-24, 19:12:58 »

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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #88 on: 2023-01-25, 15:06:38 »
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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #89 on: 2023-01-28, 13:25:22 »
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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #90 on: 2023-01-28, 15:27:54 »

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How about staying in focus, lets also start at the beginning and whats that?
The Tesla coil you call the katcher device of course !

The original  was a 37.5mtr coil on a 5cm or 50mm drain pips or was it a 18.75 winding
but what guys are ignoring is how do you make it cover that measurement
on the tube length when the surface wind is 16cm per single turn, other wise its not in
resonance! and then there is the wire it's wound with thickness to consider.

So I ask any of you has any one solved this spacing problem and how as it becomes
rather complex.

Sil



« Last Edit: 2023-01-28, 18:41:44 by AlienGrey »
   
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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #91 on: 2023-01-28, 17:29:12 »

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Quote from: AlienGrey on 2023-01-28, 15:27:54
How about staying in focus, lets also start at the beginning and whats that?
The Tesla coil you call the katcher device of course !

The original  was a 37.5mtr coil on a 50cm drain pips or was it a 18.75 winding
but what guys are ignoring is how do you make it cover that measurement
on the tube length when the surface wind is 16cm per single turn, other wise its not in
resonance! and then there is the wire it's wound with thickness to consider.

So I ask any of you has any one solved this spacing problem and how as it becomes
rather complex.

Sil

Dear Mr Grey.

We really need to get a grip on our measurements. 50 cm is half a Metre. I presume you meant 50 mm? That would equate to 157.1 mm of wire per turn.

Regarding the spacing. The use of a small lathe with screw cutting facilities would help immensely. You can either lay down the wire directly onto the former or, with the use of a sharp point lathe tool, form a spiral groove that the wire can lay in.

Cheers Graham.


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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #92 on: 2023-01-30, 23:58:49 »

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Quote from: Grumage on 2023-01-28, 17:29:12
Dear Mr Grey.

We really need to get a grip on our measurements. 50 cm is half a Metre. I presume you meant 50 mm? That would equate to 157.1 mm of wire per turn.

Regarding the spacing. The use of a small lathe with screw cutting facilities would help immensely. You can either lay down the wire directly onto the former or, with the use of a sharp point lathe tool, form a spiral groove that the wire can lay in.

Cheers Graham.
Hi Graham; sorry to take so long to get back, and yes 50 mm tube would be better but
pvc drain pipe isnt the best idea as it bends with a little heat. There is a tube the post office
stocks made of card board and also plexiflow tube but its 56.13 on my micrometer, the inner dia
is 50.02 and if need be the katcher could plexitube could be slid over the 50mm drain pipe, the card board version is OSD of 55.86mm and an inside dia of 47.40mm and it wont fit over the 50mm drain pipe.

Regarding the lath idea it would be a matter of spacing and getting it accurate. What are your
thoughts on that idea?

Sil
   
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Re: Concepts and principles of OU devices. « Reply #93 on: 2023-01-31, 10:44:36 »

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Quote from: AlienGrey on 2023-01-30, 23:58:49
Hi Graham; sorry to take so long to get back, and yes 50 mm tube would be better but
pvc drain pipe isnt the best idea as it bends with a little heat. There is a tube the post office
stocks made of card board and also plexiflow tube but its 56.13 on my micrometer, the inner dia
is 50.02 and if need be the katcher could plexitube could be slid over the 50mm drain pipe, the card board version is OSD of 55.86mm and an inside dia of 47.40mm and it wont fit over the 50mm drain pipe.

Regarding the lath idea it would be a matter of spacing and getting it accurate. What are your
thoughts on that idea?

Sil

Hi AG.

Regarding the use of a lathe the end result would be near perfect in accuracy. Even the really cheap ones have what’s called “ Screw cutting “ facilities. This means that as the work is rotated the lathe cutting tool follows a “ pitch “ set by the gearing. And as said previously you could make a spiral groove that your wire could sit in.

From your text I gather that you need the one coil to be able to slide over the other, is that correct? This former might have to be custom made? In the old days they used Brown paper and Shellac. Shellac is still readily available at most DIY outlets, commonly known as Button polish.

If you can find a suitable tube I would be happy to run a groove along it for you.

Cheers Graham.


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