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Author Topic: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency  (Read 9226 times)
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Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « on: 2023-09-13, 22:01:30 »
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I studied the Horvath Patents for a long time,way back, and understand the circuits. A duplication does not need a new cast carburetor and machined spoked electrodes as in Patent. The Electrical circuit is just a beefed up capacitor discharge ignition for MAIN POWER, with improved efficiency electrolysis for hydrogen and oxygen at 40 amps, 450 watts battery draw. The spark plugs are changed to zero ohms racing type or just get Champion brand with same reach threads and remove resistor from top, and replace with bit of #12  copper wire segment. The gases flow from water safety can to a "spud in jet" as fitting on side of old 1 barrel carburetor at the venturi point. This beveled copper tube + farrow seal cap was also used on small engines on propane conversion without the expensive type kit purchase. Read Patent  3980053, then I can answer you about how it works. A 1994 Chevy Geo Metro 3 cylinder engine with fuel system injector replaced with a used, single barrel Carter carburetor would suffice. You make an aluminum plate adapter. It has a distributor that can be adjusted for timing. The Patent transformer core size was given, so as I had enlarged photo on copy machine to get size of other parts.Substitutes can be used when ordering parts as long as the necessary design systems are included. The on time of current pulses was 42 microseconds out of 100..  1 / F = Period of frequency.10khz = 100 microseconds time. The duty cycle of oscillator was .006. 22 amps cap discharge = 300V DC X  square root of 1microfarad / 185 microhenries coil of TR2 primary.. Frequency of pulses to SCR was 10,000 cycles. Tr1 FERRITE type transformer charges up the capacitor to 300v AC.  Diodes added for full wave DC..Main capacitor HAS TO BE ONLY polypropylene 1MFD AT 1000 VOLTS DC type as LOW esr.  The 22 was amps into primary of TR2. The secondary side was 10:1 ratio. The fast switch SCR is only the high frequency type like a GE model 35 amp. The reverse pulse on the primary side circuit of TR2 shuts off SCR inbetween pulses automatically. The 200A cell pulses creates more Hydrogen with the aid of magnetic field.The TR2 secondary uses NO DIODE RECTIFIER as the pulses ARE called "critical positive wave" with core as laminations, for the high frequency , instead of ferrite. This causes degraded pulse wave as positive DC. Get laminations from take apart microwave old transformer. You would build NARROW rectangle box of high temperature Gray pvc plates. . Two  SS magnetic type plates and metal strips to add to each for spokes. The large Alnico or small multiple STRONG Neodymium magnets get taped to outside of box. N + S on opposite sides box.  The cover gets holes for various brass fittings. Cut out rectangle rubber seal and drilled + tapped  holes for cover screws.Magnetic  Field is between the electrode strip gaps under water. The Oxygen and Hydrogen gaseous bubbles rise up and transfer to special brass wool type fast one way valve before entering the safety water can. Water cell should use baking soda with distilled water, so as no cleaning of container minerals build up. The Metro engine compartment is LARGE and has plenty room to work. Engine could also be put on engine stand, but you would need the Bell housing because the starter motor mounts there.. The car called Geo Metro XFI model with 3cyl did get the highest gas mileage of any car- 52MPG. In Canada it was called the Firefly. Don't forget to buy test meters such as LCR tester. The Analog type face + needle multimeters will measure volts at high frequency, not digital. Float valve attached to cover and small DC water pump, white plastic plug in breadboard for oscillator, ect, you get the idea. I have the sheet of proof reading corrections from poor Patent examiner mistakes.




Horvath Patents Allowed Engine To Run On Water Improved Electrolysis Efficiency

I studied the Horvath Patents for a long time,way back, and understand the circuits. A duplication does not need a new cast carburetor and machined spoked electrodes as in Patent. The Electrical circuit is just a beefed up capacitor discharge ignition for MAIN POWER, with improved efficiency electrolysis for hydrogen and oxygen at 40 amps, 450 watts battery draw. The spark plugs are changed to zero ohms racing type or just get Champion brand with same reach threads and remove resistor from top, and replace with bit of #12 copper wire segment. The gases flow from water safety can to a "spud in jet" as fitting on side of old 1 barrel carburetor at the venturi point. This beveled copper tube + farrow seal cap was also used on small engines on propane conversion without the expensive type kit purchase. Read Patent 3980053, then I can answer you about how it works. A 1994 Chevy Geo Metro 3 cylinder engine with fuel system injector replaced with a used, single barrel Carter carburetor would suffice. You make an aluminum plate adapter. It has a distributor that can be adjusted for timing. The Patent transformer core size was given, so as I had enlarged photo on copy machine to get size of other parts.Substitutes can be used when ordering parts as long as the necessary design systems are included. The on time of current pulses was 42 microseconds out of 100.. 1 / F = Period of frequency.10khz = 100 microseconds time. The duty cycle of oscillator was .006. (.6usec/100usec) 22 amps cap discharge = 300V DC X square root of 1microfarad / 185 microhenries coil of TR2 primary.. Frequency of pulses to SCR was 10,000 cycles. Tr1 FERRITE type transformer charges up the capacitor to 300v AC. Diodes added for full wave DC..Main capacitor HAS TO BE ONLY polypropylene 1MFD AT 1000 VOLTS DC type as LOW esr. The 22 was amps into primary of TR2. The secondary side was 10:1 ratio. The fast switch SCR is only the high frequency type like a GE model 35 amp. The reverse pulse on the primary side circuit of TR2 shuts off SCR inbetween pulses automatically. The 200A cell pulses creates more Hydrogen with the aid of magnetic field.The TR2 secondary uses NO DIODE RECTIFIER as the pulses ARE called "critical positive wave" with core as laminations, for the high frequency , instead of ferrite. This causes degraded pulse wave as positive DC. Get laminations from take apart microwave old transformer. You would build NARROW rectangle box of high temperature Gray pvc plates. . Two SS magnetic type plates and metal strips to add to each for spokes. The large Alnico or small multiple STRONG Neodymium magnets get taped to outside of box. N + S on opposite sides box. The cover gets holes for various brass fittings. Cut out rectangle rubber seal and drilled + tapped holes for cover screws.Magnetic Field is between the electrode strip gaps under water. The Oxygen and Hydrogen gaseous bubbles rise up and transfer to special brass wool type fast one way valve before entering the safety water can. Water cell should use baking soda with distilled water, so as no cleaning of container minerals build up. The Metro engine compartment is LARGE and has plenty room to work. Engine could also be put on engine stand, but you would need the Bell housing because the starter motor mounts there.. The car called Geo Metro XFI model with 3cyl did get the highest gas mileage of any car- 52MPG. In Canada it was called the Firefly. Don't forget to buy test meters such as LCR tester. The Analog type face + needle multimeters will measure volts at high frequency, not digital. Float valve attached to cover and small DC water pump, white plastic plug in breadboard for oscillator, ect, you get the idea. I have the sheet of proof reading corrections from poor Patent examiner mistakes.


   
I studied US Patent 3980053 vigorously years ago. I typed 2 pages of proof reading errors made by the Patent Examiners. Doing a recent review of my findings, the ratio of windings is lastly, still a problem. The main circuit is just a beefed up capacitor discharge ignition at 600watts, and used for electrolysis, instead of low wattage unit for running a common ignition coil.
There is an "inherent" built in lowered efficiency set up ,designed in by Horvath, on purpose. The schematic electrical hook up in the Patent is to be able to use heavy amps as a final , without using a heat/energy wasting rectifier at 200 pulse amps at 600 watts. This brilliant small section of circuit solves the energy waste problem, but the step down windings ratio was incorrectly stated in Patent. With 300 volts injected by the cap into primary inductance, there seems to be a 270v loss to get to 30volts , and then a 10: 1 ratio, for final 3 volts DC. I then assumed there was a mistake as it should be 100: 1 ratio. But then again, that CANNOT BE RIGHT SINCE THERE IS AN INHERENT EFFICIENCY LOSS BUILT IN. The beginning power supply Inverter is high frequency 10,000 cycles. The 1st transformer for the Inverter is FERRITE CORE, which is normally designed for that frequency. The second following transformer using the discharge cap and ratio has low grade, low frequency iron laminations core. This speciality is for the designed in output pulse called critical positive voltage damped wave form, as a degraded final signal. (No heat loss from a 200 amp diode.) The core produces heat which is used to heat the water.
The question being presented here is, is it true then, because of the larger winding core loss of low frequency laminations on high frequency, that the REAL final winding ratio would be changed to approx 70 : 1 to be able to still get the required 3 volts as final?? I understand that Patents don't reveal exacting details, and the typed Patent should say 100:1,- they said 10:1 and are both wrong.
Instructions for the small CDI units for car or small engine ignition say that the high frequency unit is hooked to the regular auto ignition coil. Ignition coils are all called autotransformers with 3 terminals. The interior CORES ARE ALL low frequency iron laminations. Maybe I am reading too much into this, as it is common for cdi to use the iron lamination cores. What we didn't know was, the output pulse is POSITIVE DC VOLTAGE.

In The Patent, Capacitor discharges 22 amps pulse at 300v DC into primary coil 185microhenries. The ratio primary to secondary side changes current to 200amps pulse at 10,000 times a second.This then creates sufficient hydrogen fuel along with the other increases in efficiency for water cell. The engines then, run on water from tank. That particular ratio was 1 to 10 for higher amps. to cell. The amount of current injected relates to quantity of fuel gases evolved. What about the voltage reduction ratio??? 300 to 3 is not 10 to 1 ratio. Is there really a 270v loss in the transfer?? Something is going on here! If 300v changes to 3 volts at 100 to 1 ratio, then 22amps would chance to 2200amps. (The 200 amps sounds more reasonable.)

(Or just maybe, the LAST actual proof reading error in the US Patent, was the ORIGINALLY WRONG FINAL VOLTAGE, AS It should be 30 volts PULSE DC!) 10 to one Ratio for both voltage 300v down to 30v and current up from 22A to 200A. (The 200 amps sounds more reasonable.) Your comments needed!

« Last Edit: 2024-07-25, 23:53:34 by russwr »
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #1 on: 2024-07-26, 15:29:25 »
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It is also possible that the manuscript submitted to Patent office by Horvath was published as is. This would include the 2 pages of proofreading errors I had found, INCLUDED as designed in, to deter the commoners, from any duplication. Quality technicians and Engineers can follow the write-up and fully understand the flow of details. I said the device was used for improved efficiency of electrolysis of water to hydrogen. The Patent said so. The complete explanation STEP BY STEP is in the Patent write up with a parts list. The 2 transformers in circuit were hand assembled as pertinent only for that circuit. The Inverter is NOT similar to the old style methodology, due to the type of reversed rectification used. The DIRECTED magnetic field pulses SPEED UP the ions across the water gap of spoked electrodes. The PULSING METHOD of DC to the electrodes promotes the charged ions stuck to surfaces to be immediately released, and flow upward, better than straight DC. ( THE Archie Blue Patent uses small pumped in air that does a CLEAN SWEEP of ions off of the aluminum perforated stack of discs electrodes in vertical cell. His 3 cars ran on water with 40amp battery draw.) The heat from laminations heats the water to speed up electrolysis. Instant generation of fuel gases as H+H+ O-- ionized and not H2+O2, contains higher energy content If FIRED right away in engine. You did not read / study US Patent 3980053 for free Internet on line, to grasp the significance of this invention. A firm does not expend $5000 for attorney fees to process Patent application without substantial merit. Engineer Horvath's first 2 patents related were similar but differed as to final output of either low voltage or high voltage. His last Patent referred to Magnetron radiation tube in water cell center ALSO delivering sufficient hydrogen fuel. The final take on this overall, is that several special parts as described are not really necessary, and are there just to deter people from trying to duplicate the system. His self running car at 40 amps power draw, was public demonstrated several times and in local newspaper New Zealand.
« Last Edit: 2024-07-27, 16:28:59 by russwr »
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #2 on: 2025-08-28, 04:24:43 »
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Re: Horvath Patents Allowed Engine To Run On Water Improved Electrolysis Efficiency


The Engineer Horvath had 3 related Patents for hydrogen from water auto conversions. Final cell as low voltage , another at high voltage with same instilled circuit, and the more elaborate water cell with central radiation Magnetron tube.Photos do not tell which type was displayed.  I studied the low volts model and typed out page of proof reading errors not caught .Patents  designs included obvious non essential parts to deter people from replication, - such as cast special carburetor, large diameter cell, interior - rather than external transformer.
 Outer box strong magnets on sides of narrow cell would suffice to speed ions . I had 2 steel plates knurled rough with matching flutes nickel plated at machine shop.. They would face each other in narrow gap. High temp gray PVC plates measured for cell + removable cover. Source for free distilled water would still be needed.
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #3 on: 2025-09-08, 22:42:28 »
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The Nuclear fusion conversion conversation in video was wrong. That's not what it was . Just greatly improved Radiolysis of water to hydrogen + oxygen gas fuel method #3. . The#1 and #2  low + high volts designs were not shown.

Horvath had 3 established Patents on high efficiency made hydrogen gas electrical circuits. One was Magnetron glass radiation tube in water cell center. The other two were low volts out and high volts out to water cell . Two were VERY similar to your well known CDI that fires the ignition coil primary side. He beefed it up for 450Watts for the cell, while the alternator recharges battery , about 40 amps. He added efficiency measures to cell such as magnetic field and pulse flowing ions. 200A pulses to electrolysis cell at 30v DC. About 45% duty cycle cell. Designed in high frequency put to low frequency iron laminations core transformer TR2 , so as no diode needed, - called positive Critical  Wave Form. READ the Patent  on line and print it out for study later. Things were added not necessary so as to discourage others from duplication such as special machined carburetor, and separation screens for gases. The old style SCR switch is now replaced with MOSFET. The Inverter transistors as Bipolar type is replaced with Mosfet. The type Inverter is now changed to the "IC driven " type for on+ off switching of current 50% duty cycle. The oscillator frequency is adjustable which gives the wattage wanted. Three cars were converted to water, 6yl, and( 2) 4cyl engines. Hydrogen gas is the fuel of our future . Read # 3980053   1976     . Old electrical parts list was included.  A single barrel Carter carb can have a spud in jet on side at venturi point for hose connection. Saw out an aluminum plate adapter for intake manifold mount of carb. Similar to the old VW engine conversions in 1970's to propane. The expensive Impco apparatus is not needed.
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #4 on: 2025-09-18, 22:02:10 »
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Horvath Patent Saves Even More Energy!

The high wattage CDI power supply, 2nd transformer Tr2 as inside the water cell, had no rectifier on secondary side output wanted. The waste heat was not desired by use of a rectifier as it was running on 200amps  current. Energy was then conserved, and Tr2 transformer had been changed to iron laminations instead of Ferrite material normally for high frequency. It's use allowed for what is expressed as a positive + pulse output as DC , due to the formation of a degenerated, type, of Critical Positive Wave , as seen on oscilloscope. Brilliant!. Taken all together, the electronic circuit was successful, and 2nd similar CDI Patent was issued as final output high voltage type, and 3rd Horvath Patent issued using Radiation Magnetron tube in water cell. That one was shown in the Ford Fairlane V8 engine, back in those days.
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #5 on: 2025-10-28, 01:16:22 »
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 Horvath Tech Data CDI Circuits Build Project

Patent 3980053 Hydrogen generator was studied by me in great depth, quite a while back in time.  I had way earlier, typed out a 2  page corrections of minor errors and items involved , not necessary to add to car engine to run on hydrogen fuel . Fuel upon demand, no gaseous storage. Things were printed as too expensive or particular design manufacturing, to detour others from duplicating the system. I was already aware of these common inclusions in a $5000 Patent. This letter is to inform you of my recent solution to a section of Patent data PROBLEM that was missed by me earlier, as wrong on purpose AND DESIGNED IN,,, the Patent literature. I am presently building the Horvath power supply and water cell tank for duplication, as an average individual would do it without the up above parts/ designs not necessary, but including all of the important EFFICIENCY IMPROVEMENTS as Horvath did. This project was on my mind for years, and quite similar to a beefed up Capacitor Discharge Ignition circuit, as used for powering an improved efficiency Electrolysis cell. He also took data from previous Patents of theirs and incorporated them in his design. It's really the amount of fuel generated, as important, not the efficiency of a power supply!

Here we go:-- A pulse energy into coil has a reverse flow back. The secondary side coil of a transformer follows the primary method the same, except for a ratio change of turns. There can be 60cycles or 20,000 cycles frequency or higher. In general, iron lamination sheets are used for lower frequency range, while Ferrite is on high frequency. As frequency increases, less turns are necessary on primary side. It makes it easier to wind on core. The Patent was correct in that on + off time is required for cell plates, as about/around 50% duty cycle, on the SECONDARY side transformer. This allows the stuck polarized ions to release and rise up in the solution. Horvath said to use iron laminations for TR2, as the secondary side receives what's called Positive Critical wave form as seen on Scope.( High frequency used on low frequency type core.) This was to get a DC pulse for making Hydrogen gas and WITHOUT A Rectifier which would cause loss of 40-70 Watts heat loss, reducing efficiency, the rectifier forward volts drop loss times the current 200amps. This inclusion in Patent was INTENTIONAL TO DETOUR others from duplicating the design as printed. NOT POSSIBLE to get sufficient Inductance in 100-300 microhenry range, at LOW turns,  as necessary with the associated capacitor, on iron laminations!!! Ferrite must be used for way higher inductance on low number to turns to be able to get 10:1 ratio for 22A going to 200 A, with heavy battery cable low turns secondary side of transformer.

All you have to do is put fast recovery high frequency diodes/ rectifier on primary side to stop the reverse wave form, on both sides!

The secondary side sees the same thing!!! I have Primary side  heatsink, with fast recovery stud diode as 1N3913 as 400v DC + 30amps (cathode stud) .
Secondary has wind of #6 gauge cable . The 2 ends hook to  TWO  short #6 ends coming from out side of tank using COPPER cable joint connector with large copper screw.

 My rectangle aquarium tank was made with 3/8" thick plates. Presently ordering #6 red cable and gauges. The separate plastic water safety container will have pop off rubber plug, microswitch shuts off oscillator capacitor ground connection, while the flashback arrester is hand made with brass tube and brass wool, and SS screens. KOH is hard to find. Water solution is done by weight of water + chemical together, as 25% and 75% for total weight solution together. You weight the tank with plates first, then determine water level and final total weight minus tank to get final water only with interior displacement..  (Volume + weight will change in final solution to get 25%) See GrokAI.com .

Past dc to ac Inverters had primary extra feedback wind , so as unit shuts down during SCR shorting with saturation of core. (self protection). The modern China 1000W Inverter has IC driven oscillator + needs new and different protection from burn out, during main MOSFET switch operation with it's separate gate oscillator. The method is to charge CDI capacitor through another MOSFET.  . Diode at capacitor then does the discharge through the main Mosfet to primary. and then other one way diode. The resistor going to gate of first Q, is ALSO in series with Drain of main MOSFET, so as NO SHORT.  First Q shuts off during cap discharge. Can also see book pages to see circuit done with earlier Bipolar transistor. and SCR. Add on circuit  was used earlier to raise up frequency of firing lasers. Build Your Own Laser, Phaser, Ion ray gun, And Other working space Age Projects. pages 33-36. Great stuff!  I have 3 copies.
« Last Edit: 2025-10-30, 17:14:05 by russwr »
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #6 on: 2025-11-20, 21:26:33 »
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If you were following my messages earlier, I said the sizing of original spoked electrodes anode with area dimensions , came from taking the Patent cell drawing  to an office copying machine with ruler, and doing successive enlargements , so as the TR2 metal core was exact 3/4", as stated in Patent". This way the other dimensions can be revealed. Are you building a cell+ power supply also?

What's important is the "time line"-  Speed of charging as faster than the discharging frequency of capacitor discharges. 51Khz full wave DC ripple frequency has period 1/F. It takes 2 pulses to fully recharge cap in between discharges. Each discharge of Cap is same, - .054Watt. Times 16,700 cycles for separate discharging oscillator to get the 900 Peak watts. Use scientific calculator with formulas. There has to be a "window" of time microseconds after the pulse stops, for the available off time , so as complete recharges happen for 330vDC. A feedback loop wiring and zeners + optocoupler as hooked back to the Master IC, SG3525 keeps voltage regulated, so as parts don't burn out with over voltage. 23.7usec cap stops through diode of primary, , with difference to 60 useconds of the discharge oscillator available off time. The 22 amps pulse is under 30useconds and then off to the 60usecs. This is reflected to the TR2 secondary side as POSITIVE DC pulse with off time in the water. 1/4 wavelength is used in formula for cap discharge time as primary has diode. The charging section at other end has about 12uhenry inductor and series diode also , so as just 330 volts is applied and not 660v. . You can also send short questions to Grok AI, but need to repeat with different wording so as a better reply is made. . A computer cannot think, just relay tech data that's all ready out there.
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #7 on: 2025-11-25, 21:55:18 »
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Quote from: russwr on 2025-11-20, 21:26:33
If you were following my messages earlier, I said the sizing of original spoked electrodes anode with area dimensions , came from taking the Patent cell drawing  to an office copying machine with ruler, and doing successive enlargements , so as the TR2 metal core was exact 3/4", as stated in Patent". This


Hello russwr! 
I have studied your posts, thank you very much for sharing. 
I still don’t understand how Horvath improves the efficiency of water electrolysis, and whether the efficiency he achieved is OU. 
Of course, without OU, the engine cannot run in a self-sustaining cycle. 
Maybe Horvath used a strange 25:75 ratio of water to KOH? 
The solubility of KOH in water is 1100 grams per liter. 
So, Horvath’s electrolyte is a saturated KOH solution? Would this improve electrolysis efficiency? 

Also, what is the electrode area in Horvath’s electrolyzer? Normally, it should be greater than 0.06 square meters. 
How are the electrodes connected to the spark plug? 

You mainly discuss circuit performance. Circuit performance, for improving efficiency and OU, should not be the main factor. 
If the circuit is designed with batteries that match the electrolyzer voltage as a direct power source, for example: many single lead-acid cells in parallel = 2V 2000Ah. 
Using 
MOSFET: IPT004N03L = 30V 300A 0.4mΩ 
as pulse switches, with many paralleled. 
The circuit efficiency would definitely be the highest, and it would be the simplest, cheapest, and most reliable.

Thank you very much!
« Last Edit: 2025-11-25, 22:29:31 by panyuming »
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #8 on: 2025-11-25, 22:17:59 »

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Quote from: panyuming on 2025-11-25, 21:55:18

The solubility of KOH in water is 1100 grams per liter. 
So, Horvath’s electrolyte is a saturated KOH solution? Would this improve electrolysis efficiency? 



there was a thread at ou.com that had shown sodium hydroxide saturated water in a test tube.  he had a coil of wire wound around the middile of the test tube and applied ac input, maybe square wave, at a particular freq and power level. he claimed that since sodium hydroxide was a 'metal', no plates in the solution needed. had claimed and shown what he called profuse amounts of gas being produced.

mags
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #9 on: 2025-11-25, 22:31:35 »
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Mags
Was that the Cancer Dr. from Florida ( kansius? ( spelling?)
He burned water in the tube …?


Edit
Video here
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aFNKjWfbqlA

As I recall he was looking for a frequency to fight cancer
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #10 on: 2025-11-25, 22:34:30 »
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Quote from: Magluvin on 2025-11-25, 22:17:59
there was a thread at ou.com that had shown sodium hydroxide saturated water in a test tube.  he had a coil of wire wound around the middile of the test tube and applied ac input, maybe square wave, at a particular freq and power level. he claimed that since sodium hydroxide was a 'metal', no plates in the solution needed. had claimed and shown what he called profuse amounts of gas being produced.

mags

Thanks to Magluvin for sharing!
This method is great—no electrodes, no corrosion, no pollution.
Thank you!
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #11 on: 2025-12-15, 23:49:46 »
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Quote from: panyuming on 2025-11-25, 21:55:18

Hello russwr! 
I have studied your posts, thank you very much for sharing. 
I still don’t understand how Horvath improves the efficiency of water electrolysis, and whether the efficiency he achieved is OU. 
Of course, without OU, the engine cannot run in a self-sustaining cycle. 
Maybe Horvath used a strange 25:75 ratio of water to KOH? 
The solubility of KOH in water is 1100 grams per liter. 
So, Horvath’s electrolyte is a saturated KOH solution? Would this improve electrolysis efficiency? 

Also, what is the electrode area in Horvath’s electrolyzer? Normally, it should be greater than 0.06 square meters. 
How are the electrodes connected to the spark plug? 

You mainly discuss circuit performance. Circuit performance, for improving efficiency and OU, should not be the main factor. 
If the circuit is designed with batteries that match the electrolyzer voltage as a direct power source, for example: many single lead-acid cells in parallel = 2V 2000Ah. 
Using 
MOSFET: IPT004N03L = 30V 300A 0.4mΩ 
as pulse switches, with many paralleled. 
The circuit efficiency would definitely be the highest, and it would be the simplest, cheapest, and most reliable.

Thank you very much!

I assume you did not study the Horvath Patent to get the details used. No pressure tank storage of gases, fuel evolved on demand sped up, 200 Peak pulse amps at 50% duty cycle into water cell, on + off pulsing DC to remove stuck ions, strong electrolyte, focused electrodes design, ions flow speeded up, Heat, automotive alternator keeps battery charged from about 45-50 amps draw to circuit.  etc. You don't use just standard low efficiency electrolysis. You add improvements to the cell itself and the power supply used. Many US Patents to research. Of course, all those have been superceeded by the Meyer techniques and his over unity technology of Voltrolysis.
« Last Edit: 2025-12-15, 23:59:20 by russwr »
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #12 on: 2025-12-21, 02:07:01 »
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The Hefferlin manuscript was regarding steam to Hydrogen engine using high frequency. Back in those days , 1921-late 1940's, high frequency + high volts was only related to the famous high voltage Tesla coil. The extreme vibrations antagonized the molecules to separate very easily in heated chamber. The modern Patent reference I cited was to show that a particular frequency was relied on to make efficient hydrogen fuel gases from steam. Samuel Leach, 1970's  Patents 4148701, 4113589,4247379,4272345   - special composite coating in chamber inside emits frequency when heated, extracts Hydrogen from steam.  Newsweek April 19, 11976, Sam Leach's box pg78.     
Tesla coils can be made/adjusted for many frequencies output. The secondary tube is made first and accurately adjusted. The Primary is then tuned to to that one. Early models were spark gap and capacitor type. Nowdays they can be solid state firings of secondary. Back issue Electronics magazines have articles.

The S1R9A9M9 Georgia engines conversions had used only AUTOLITE brand spark plugs with solid COPPER ROD center. There are many part numbers, but most are with internal resistor of about 4000 ohms. The AUTOLITE 295 is ZERO ohms, non resistor type,  and not iridium type, as recently tested by me. This validates the Georgia electrical circuit as being able to pass the 7 Peak AMPS Current through spark plugs.


My Horvath Patent power Supply as beefed up CDI for powering the separate water cell is just about done. Fans being hooked up to keep China Inverter transistors / heatsink cooled. The end transformer TR2 with battery cable needs to be wound. 30 turns #12 and 3 turns #6. Photo to be sent later. I have been ordering parts for the aquarium box cell, as fittings gauges, special switches, etc.

 Time to change the wall calander! Happy Holidays!
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #13 on: 2025-12-21, 17:16:21 »

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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #14 on: 2025-12-22, 20:45:56 »

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i see now in another thread lower on the list on Stan Meyers talking about same idea.

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/nPkbvSEEKeE

mags
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #15 on: 2025-12-23, 08:35:12 »

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It's just fog. Not even water vapor, but tiny droplets of water.
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #16 on: 2025-12-23, 17:04:50 »

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Quote from: chief kolbacict on 2025-12-23, 08:35:12
It's just fog. Not even water vapor, but tiny droplets of water.

I used an ultrasonic fog gen when I was messing around with this, it was cool.
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #17 on: 2025-12-23, 20:51:25 »

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used to be a guy at ou.com that was showing electrolysis with no contact of electrodes to the water.  he said you need to mix sodium hydroxide, just a bit at a time, in pure water till it was saturated. meaning get to the point where the sodium hydroxide would no longer dissolve.  he put it in a test tube and wound a coil of copper wire around the outside of the glass tube and injected pulses to the coil. he said that sodium hydroxide is a form of metal that acts like magnetically induced plates within the saturated solution and produced what he termed as profuse amounts of hydroxy gas. he ddnt stay on the forum long.

the advantages were that there was no electrodes in the water for input and the solution stayed clean.

had some vids on it then he just went away.....

mags
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #18 on: 2025-12-23, 21:53:10 »

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Quote from: Magluvin on 2025-12-23, 20:51:25
he said that sodium hydroxide is a form of metal that acts like magnetically induced plates within the saturated solution and produced what he termed as profuse amounts of hydroxy gas. he ddnt stay on the forum long.
Kanzius ?

Anyway, the purpose of the NaOH is to render the water conductive.  NaCl works, too, but causes chlorine evolution.
The rapidly changing magnetic field induces high frequency AC electric field in the conductive liquid according to Faraday's and Maxwell's equations.
The same principle is used to power inductively coupled fluorescent tubes (see here).

The biggest advantage of this method is the lack of electrode erosion and by extension - long operating life.
The biggest disadvantage - no unidirectional electric field (and no DC) - only high-frequency alternating electric field that can electrolyse water but cannot separate the evoluted hydrogen and oxygen spatially.
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #19 on: 2025-12-24, 01:45:49 »
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So it sounds like your saying that the person who made the claim ( at Stefan’s forum)
Was not evolving HHO ?
But maybe steam ?

Yes I remember Kanzius was “burning “ salt water with a similar setup ( coil on the outside of tube ??) at a specific frequency.

Seems ( as in your example of gaseous ( fluorescent)bulbs)
It’s a type of plasma ( at micro level ( in electrolyte solution)
And Plasma is all the rage ATM and perhaps some things to learn and experiment with …( various flavors and frequencies??
Gonna see if Jimboot can ask his “crew” about this ?
Respectfully
Chet K
Ps
Russ sorry about this perhaps off topic
However it may not really be that far off

The first Claimed LENR was said to be over 120 years ago while “sparking”Hydrogen
Yes Hydrogen is inert when no Oxygen is present.

Any hoo
Here a preview ( quickly assembled) by Jimboots “crew” on plasma ( bulbs??)
and George Egely’s work.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KXrT0k7xKys&pp=0gcJCR4Bo7VqN5tD

These experiments are enroute to this forum for public perusal ( soon).

PPS
Jimboot said he would get his crew to investigate ( and report back) the claim Mags posted??
I do remember Kanzius was very inefficient ( high power to evolve the gas from seawater.

Seems the guy at Stefan’s was inferring huge gas amounts and efficiency?




Quote from: Verpies on 2025-12-23, 21:53:10
Kanzius ?

Anyway, the purpose of the NaOH is to render the water conductive.  NaCl works, too, but causes chlorine evolution.
The rapidly changing magnetic field induces high frequency AC electric field in the conductive liquid according to Faraday's and Maxwell's equations.
The same principle is used to power inductively coupled fluorescent tubes (see here).

The biggest advantage of this method is the lack of electrode erosion and by extension - long operating life.
The biggest disadvantage - no unidirectional electric field (and no DC) - only high-frequency alternating electric field that can electrolyse water but cannot separate the evoluted hydrogen and oxygen spatially.
« Last Edit: 2025-12-24, 02:22:42 by Chet K »
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #20 on: 2025-12-24, 02:10:36 »

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Quote from: Chet K on 2025-12-24, 01:45:49
So it sounds like your saying that the person who made the claim ( at Stefan’s forum) was not evolving HHO ?
AFAIR he was evolving HHO and burning it.

Quote from: Chet K on 2025-12-24, 01:45:49
Yes I remember Kanzius was “burning “ salt water with a similar setup ( coil on the outside of tube ??) at a specific frequency.
"Burning" salt water is not the best way to put it.  Rather burning the HHO generated from the electrolysis of salt water.

Quote from: Chet K on 2025-12-24, 01:45:49
Seems ( as in your example of gaseous ( fluorescent)bulbs)
You could find one of these inductively excited fluorescent lamps, drill out the tube/donut, pour the mercury out and fill it up with salt water (or soda water) and get yourself an electrodeless electrolyser that makes HHO.

Quote from: Chet K on 2025-12-24, 01:45:49
It’s a type of plasma ( at micro level ( in electrolyte solution)
When the dissociation happens in liquid form, it is electrolysis.  Electrolysis evolves gaseous HHO without plasma.  To have plasma you have to have a gas first that is subsequently ionized.
After you electrolyze the water and evolve the HHO, the induced high-frequency electric field could potentially ionize and ignite the HHO gas giving an appearance of "burning water".
The word "ignite" is appropriate wrt HHO because it involves an exothermic chemical oxidation of hydrogen. HHO contains just the right proportion of these two elements for perfect combustion.
The HHO gas can be ignited with a spark or matches, too. A large quantity of HHO burns so quickly that it explodes (it is especially dangerous when confined).

Pure hydrogen (or D) cannot be chemically "ignited" but it can be fused nuclearly into helium at much higher energies ...but we are not considering pure hydrogen here (nor D).

P.S.
Water's O-H bond bending mode resonant frequency is 48 THz.
Water's O-H bond stretching mode resonant frequency is 111 THz, but in liquid water, hydrogen bonding shifts and broadens the O-H stretches to lower frequencies ~100–105 THz.

The optimal frequency for rotational excitation of water molecules in the liquid state at room temperature via an alternating electric field corresponds to the Debye relaxation process and occurs around 20GHz.
Therefore, a 20GHz microwave oven would be the most efficient oven for water heating.
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #21 on: 2025-12-24, 07:43:03 »

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Quote from: Verpies on 2025-12-23, 21:53:10

The biggest disadvantage - no unidirectional electric field (and no DC) - only high-frequency alternating electric field that can electrolyse water but cannot separate the evoluted hydrogen and oxygen spatially.
Can we convert alternating current into direct current inside the glass ?
A correctly posed question already contains an answer. ;)
« Last Edit: 2025-12-24, 07:45:19 by chief kolbacict »
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #22 on: 2025-12-24, 12:06:28 »

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Quote from: chief kolbacict on 2025-12-24, 07:43:03
Can we convert alternating current into direct current inside the glass ?
I do not know how to do it without unipolar-RMF or self-squaring Hall Effect or cutting the donut and inserting diodes in the gap.
...but maybe you do.

P.S.
PDC in the primary <> PDC in the secondary.
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #23 on: 2025-12-24, 12:08:29 »

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I enjoy being the AI bitch but as I was saying to Chet today, Google's NotebookLM has a free level of usage and is an amazing tool. I recently trained my staff on how I use it for work but encouraged them to use it for personal projects as well. It's a great way to research, learn and get up to speed on a topic quickly.

Re Kanzius:
Using my mad search skills ( I asked Gemini) Here's a 3min vid of him on the local news. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb7-3w9Vlpk
According to Gemini, Stefan and others debated on lack of Pin measurements at the time but Kanzius made no claims of OU.

Gemini explanation.

Here are the specific technical details regarding John Kanzius’s RF device and the "burning salt water" experiments.

### **Technical Specifications**

The effect was not produced by a simple radio antenna but by a specific **RF heating system** originally designed to heat nanoparticles inside cancer cells.

| Parameter | Value / Detail | Notes |
| :--- | :--- | :--- |
| **Frequency** | **13.56 MHz** | This is a standard ISM (Industrial, Scientific, and Medical) band. |
| **Power Input** | **200 – 300 Watts** | Kanzius's 2007 demos typically ran at this wattage. |
| **Voltage** | High Voltage (Variable) | The specific voltage across the transmission heads was not always disclosed but was high enough to create a strong dielectric field. |
| **Solution** | **3% NaCl (approx)** | The effect worked best at salinities roughly equivalent to standard seawater (30,000 ppm). |
| **Temperature** | **> 3,000°F (1,650°C)** | The flame burned incredibly hot, capable of melting the Pyrex test tubes used in demonstrations. |

---

### **The Experimental Setup**
The machine was different from a standard radio transmitter. It did not just "broadcast" waves; it created a **resonant Near-Field** effect.

1.  **The Geometry:** The device consisted of two transmitting heads (plates or coils) placed a few inches apart.
2.  **The "Target":** The test tube of salt water was placed *between* these heads, inside the high-intensity RF field.
3.  **The Reaction:** The 13.56 MHz signal caused the ions in the salt water to oscillate violently. This weakened the molecular bonds of the water ($H_2O$), releasing Hydrogen gas ($H_2$) which then ignited at the surface due to the intense heat of the RF field.



### **Why it wasn't "Free Energy" (Overunity)**
This is the key detail debated on the forums.
* **Energy In:** 200+ Watts of electrical power.
* **Energy Out:** The thermal energy from the small hydrogen flame (calculated to be far less than 200 Watts).

While visually stunning, it was an **electrolytic** process driven by radio waves rather than direct current. The system was running at a net energy loss, which is why Kanzius pivoted back to using the machine for **cancer treatment** (using the heat to kill tumors) rather than power generation.

### **A Note on Replication**
If you are looking at old forum posts (like those from user `Hartiberlin` or `Stefan` on Overunity.com), they often attempted to replicate this using **solid-state RF amplifiers** (like those used for Ham radio) hooked up to copper coils. The critical component they often missed was the **impedance matching network** required to dump that much power into a test tube of water without reflecting it all back and burning out the amplifier.

**Would you like me to explain the "impedance matching" circuit required to actually get 13.56 MHz power into a jar of salt water?**
   
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Re: Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency « Reply #24 on: 2025-12-25, 09:44:09 »

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Quote from: Verpies on 2025-12-24, 12:06:28
P.S.
PDC in the primary <> PDC in the secondary.
PDC
Was ist das?
   
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