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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Theory and Learning Center > Induction > Transformer Induction
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Author Topic: Transformer Induction  (Read 12514 times)
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img  Centraflow
Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #125 on: 2025-10-15, 17:15:42 »

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My take on what is happening.

When C1 is inside the toroid the charging electric field between the plates is equal to a wire, a single turn, and a magnetic field is created.


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img  Smudge
Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #126 on: 2025-10-15, 18:52:23 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2025-10-15, 16:23:42
Smudge,

OK, here are the test results of your modified circuit shown below with C1 placed outside the core and replaced with a wire in the core.

Yes, as you say, the first and second scope pix appear to look identical to the equivalent pix with C1 in the core.  We see a change in C1 of 1.48v which is commensurate with 130ma over 12us, plus we see a change in start to finish of -1.40v in C1 as previous.

In the third scope pix Ch3(pnk) is across C1 and CH4(grn) is the current thru C1.  Here we see C1 being charged to a negative potential by the negative current.

It is the same current flowing around the closed circuit that you show as positive in the first and second scope pics.

Quote
I agree with all this for this circuit.  What I don't agree with is that these results are equal to what is happening with C1 in the core! 

Why?  Because in this case it is quite obvious that the current thru R2/D2 will charge C1 from an initial 0v state.  However, how do we logically justify the fact that with C1 in the core while being charge separated to ~4.00v, we see a positive current in R2/D2 that is drawn from C1 which will logically discharge C1, not charge it?  Do you not agree?
No.  That current logically charges C1 from 0V.  I don't see C1 as being charge separated to ~4V, I see C1 showing charge separation identical to a piece of wire so you are seeing an induced voltage, not a charged voltage.  I tried to demonstrate this with your image of the capacitor plates where I put + and - symbols against the conductive vertical plates.  I try again here where I put colours on those plates to demonstrate you are seeing charge separation along a conductor, not charge separation across the dielectric.  C1 is at 0V charge while showing 4V induction and then gains charge.  The two scope pics (C1 in the core and out of the core) show identical situations.

Smudge
   
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Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #127 on: 2025-10-15, 20:52:11 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2025-10-15, 18:52:23
It is the same current flowing around the closed circuit that you show as positive in the first and second scope pics.
No.  That current logically charges C1 from 0V.  I don't see C1 as being charge separated to ~4V, I see C1 showing charge separation identical to a piece of wire so you are seeing an induced voltage, not a charged voltage.  I tried to demonstrate this with your image of the capacitor plates where I put + and - symbols against the conductive vertical plates.  I try again here where I put colours on those plates to demonstrate you are seeing charge separation along a conductor, not charge separation across the dielectric.  C1 is at 0V charge while showing 4V induction and then gains charge.  The two scope pics (C1 in the core and out of the core) show identical situations.

Smudge

I of course disagree, so could you show the current flow along with potentials in the charge separated schematic that supports your claim that C1 is charging.  I'm sorry but I just don't get it!

Regards,
Pm
   
img  Frederik2k1
Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #128 on: 2025-10-16, 14:40:13 »
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Hello Partzman,
Could you briefly explain again what type of capacitor is used inside the toroid? Perhaps you could provide another detailed image showing the capacitor in the setup where it is actually used in the toroid.

I think I've lost track of what type of capacitor is used. Am I correct in assuming that it is not spiral wound?
   
img  partzman
Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #129 on: 2025-10-16, 14:58:43 »
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Quote from: Frederik2k1 on 2025-10-16, 14:40:13
Hello Partzman,
Could you briefly explain again what type of capacitor is used inside the toroid? Perhaps you could provide another detailed image showing the capacitor in the setup where it is actually used in the toroid.

I think I've lost track of what type of capacitor is used. Am I correct in assuming that it is not spiral wound?

Yes, it is a polyester film capacitor that is wound in an oval shape as is seen in the pix below.  I assume that this is spiral wound.  In any case, the plates are vertical in a horizontally placed core.

Pm
   
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Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #130 on: 2025-10-16, 15:44:02 »
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Quote from: partzman on 2025-10-15, 20:52:11
I of course disagree, so could you show the current flow along with potentials in the charge separated schematic that supports your claim that C1 is charging.  I'm sorry but I just don't get it!

Regards,
Pm

Smudge,

No reason to detail any more on what I requested above.  I see what you are saying and I would agree at this point!  Thank you for your patience!

Pm
   
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Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #131 on: 2025-10-17, 08:37:41 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2025-10-16, 15:44:02
Smudge,

No reason to detail any more on what I requested above.  I see what you are saying and I would agree at this point!  Thank you for your patience!

Pm
I started to compose a reply but it quickly developed into a deeper concern involving the difference between two types of E field, that from quasi static charge distrbutions (on conductors) and that from time changing magnetic fields.   In particular I show that the virtual particles or virtual photons that carry these E fields do not annihalate when the two E field sum to zero at a region of empty space, only the effect annihalates.  The virtual particles pass through that space unhindered.  But if that region of space is not empty (like it is part of a conducting wire) then that region (and the rest of the wire) will contain its own sources of both types of virtual particle, sources that respond to the arriving virtual particles.  I will eventually produce a document on this deeper issue but it will take some time.

Smudge

Smudge
   
img  lfarrand
Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #132 on: 2025-10-17, 20:21:26 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2025-10-17, 08:37:41
I started to compose a reply but it quickly developed into a deeper concern involving the difference between two types of E field, that from quasi static charge distrbutions (on conductors) and that from time changing magnetic fields.   In particular I show that the virtual particles or virtual photons that carry these E fields do not annihalate when the two E field sum to zero at a region of empty space, only the effect annihalates.  The virtual particles pass through that space unhindered.  But if that region of space is not empty (like it is part of a conducting wire) then that region (and the rest of the wire) will contain its own sources of both types of virtual particle, sources that respond to the arriving virtual particles.  I will eventually produce a document on this deeper issue but it will take some time.

Smudge

Smudge

Doesn't superposition play a part here, with fields combining at a point in space?
   
img  partzman
Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #133 on: 2025-10-22, 21:18:32 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2025-10-17, 08:37:41
I started to compose a reply but it quickly developed into a deeper concern involving the difference between two types of E field, that from quasi static charge distrbutions (on conductors) and that from time changing magnetic fields.   In particular I show that the virtual particles or virtual photons that carry these E fields do not annihalate when the two E field sum to zero at a region of empty space, only the effect annihalates.  The virtual particles pass through that space unhindered.  But if that region of space is not empty (like it is part of a conducting wire) then that region (and the rest of the wire) will contain its own sources of both types of virtual particle, sources that respond to the arriving virtual particles.  I will eventually produce a document on this deeper issue but it will take some time.

Smudge

Smudge

What is interesting, to me at least, is that if one views C1 to be instantly charged or not, the end results are the same!

Then there is the fact of transposition when bias is applied along with the resulting anomaly.

Pm
   
img  web000x
Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #134 on: 2025-10-22, 23:25:03 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2025-10-15, 18:52:23

No.  That current logically charges C1 from 0V.  I don't see C1 as being charge separated to ~4V, I see C1 showing charge separation identical to a piece of wire so you are seeing an induced voltage, not a charged voltage.  I tried to demonstrate this with your image of the capacitor plates where I put + and - symbols against the conductive vertical plates.  I try again here where I put colours on those plates to demonstrate you are seeing charge separation along a conductor, not charge separation across the dielectric.  C1 is at 0V charge while showing 4V induction and then gains charge.  The two scope pics (C1 in the core and out of the core) show identical situations.

Smudge

This is what I feel is happening in this circuit.  The residual negative voltage on the capacitor is fairly conclusive evidence of this.

Dave
   
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