Transformer Induction

Author Topic: Transformer Induction (Read 41696 times)

Topic Options

Magluvin

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #200 on: 2026-03-01, 18:21:23 »

Group: Mad Scientist
Hero Member

Posts: 1241

Feature      E Field     B Field     H Field

Common Name     Electric Field     Magnetic Flux Density     Magnetic Field Strength

Primary Source     Charges(Q) Total Current (J total) Free Current(J free)

Physical Effect     Pushes charges     Deflects moving charges     Magnetizes materials

SI Unit     V/m     Tesla (T)     A/m

Utility: Engineers use it because it depends only on the driving current, making it easier to calculate in complex circuits.

mags

« Last Edit: 2026-03-01, 19:24:57 by Magluvin »

Magluvin

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #201 on: 2026-03-01, 18:29:11 »

Group: Mad Scientist
Hero Member

Posts: 1241

What is the difference between the magnetic H field and the B field?

H is a bit like the number of magnetic field lines and B kinda is how tightly packed they are. More amps/more turns/shorter core means more field lines (bigger H - Aturns/m), higher permeability (measure of how easily those field lines can "flow") means they can be packed tighter together in the core (larger B - more intense magnetic field).

mags

« Last Edit: 2026-03-01, 19:30:09 by Magluvin »

Verpies

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #202 on: 2026-03-02, 02:41:18 »

Group: Administrator
Hero Member

Posts: 4856

Quote from: Magluvin on 2026-03-01, 18:29:11

What is the difference between the magnetic H field and the B field?

Perceived origin.
In SI base units the B field is kg/A⋅s² and the H field is A/m so you need to divide the B field by Newton/Ampere² to obtain the H field ( incidentally N/A² = µ₀ ).
...and √(1/µ₀ε₀) = speed of light (c).

Quote from: Magluvin on 2026-03-01, 18:29:11

H is a bit like the number of magnetic field lines and B kinda is how tightly packed they are.

Φ is the number of magnetic field lines. B is their areal density ( or like you wrote: "how tightly packed they are" ).

Smudge

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #203 on: 2026-03-02, 08:53:34 »

Group: Professor
Hero Member

Posts: 2434

There is something important missing from this table that we all know and use, magnetic attraction or repulsion. I have added it in red using your word Pushes to mean applying force..

Quote from: Magluvin on 2026-03-01, 18:21:23

Feature      E Field     B Field     H Field

Common Name     Electric Field     Magnetic Flux Density     Magnetic Field Strength

Primary Source     Charges(Q) Total Current (J total) Free Current(J free)

Physical Effect     Pushes charges     Deflects moving charges     Magnetizes materials

Pushes magnetic dipoles

SI Unit     V/m     Tesla (T)     A/m

Electrons have a magnetic dipole moment in addition to their mass and electric charge. Moving electrons are the life-blood of our electrical world so it is surprising that none of our devices use their magnetic property, the Bohr magneton, to achieve movement. There will soon be more on this subject in my Energy from electron spin bench https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4307.msg99424#msg99424.

Smudge

partzman

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #204 on: 2026-04-09, 21:50:13 »

Group: Experimentalist
Hero Member

Posts: 2307

Quote from: Verpies on 2026-03-01, 16:16:57

In this illustration:

All of the turns of the winding are slanted and this means that the current is progressing from top to bottom as well.
This progression happens in every turn - not just the top and bottom portions of the winding.

I have added the parts of the turns hidden under the page in red color:

The top to bottom current progression also happens in these hidden red halves of the turns.

Collectively, this current progression is equivalent to a current flowing in a straight wire from top to bottom that looks like this:

Notice that this equivalent vertical current generates magnetic flux which is perpendicular to the page (I marked it as red circles).

Since Edward's original diagram does not account for that vertical current progression nor for the magnetic flux generated by that current - thus his Fig. 6b is not equivalent to Fig. 6a.

What approximate amount of difference would the pitch make in a typical single layer H-Field measurement as compared to Edward's original diagram?

Pm

Verpies

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #205 on: 2026-04-09, 22:02:09 »

Group: Administrator
Hero Member

Posts: 4856

Quote from: partzman on 2026-04-09, 21:50:13

What approximate amount of difference would the pitch make in a typical single layer H-Field measurement as compared to Edward's original diagram?

The flux angle will change by tan⁻¹(1/N). The flux leakage will increase by that amount and cause induction outside of the core disproportionally to its µ_r. The normal component of the flux's magnitude will change proportionally.

To avoid all that, always use an even number of opposite-pitch layers that cover the entire core equally and uniformly.

partzman

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #206 on: 2026-06-26, 15:40:55 »

Group: Experimentalist
Hero Member

Posts: 2307

In reference to my post #192 using the same layout and components but running the circuit continuously rather than eight pulses, yields the following data. This experiment utilizes both the H-Field of the primary and the charge separation inside the toroid core.

P1 shows the input power taken from the 48v supply. CH1(yel) is the pulse input to the 3/4 bridge driving the 12T primary winding, CH2(blu) is the supply voltage, CH3(pnk) is the voltage across the wire/capacitor, CH4(grn) is the current through the primary, and CHM(red) is the math channel showing the resultant watts with CH2*CH4.

P2 shows the measurements of the power returned to the 48v supply from the primary.

P3 shows the output power in the Math(red) channel with CH3*CH4 with CH4 now measuring the current in the wire connected across the 8uf capacitor.

P4 shows the increase in voltage across the 8uf cap produced by the average resonant current for the positive half cycle.

P5 shows the average current in the wire with the wire/cap rotated 90 degrees clockwise inside the toroid core in reference to the primary winding. This indicates that the H-Field induction to the wire is valid when properly oriented. With the wire and capacitor both charge separated to the same potential, no current would be expected to flow unless supplied by an outside source which is in this case, is the primary's H-Field on the inside of the core.

Regards,
Pm

Transformer Induction

P1.png (41.02 kB, 800x480 - viewed 87 times.)

Transformer Induction

P2.png (40.98 kB, 800x480 - viewed 85 times.)

Transformer Induction

P3.png (44.99 kB, 800x480 - viewed 83 times.)

Transformer Induction

P4.png (44.92 kB, 800x480 - viewed 85 times.)

Transformer Induction

P5.png (34.32 kB, 800x480 - viewed 82 times.)

Verpies	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #207 on: 2026-06-26, 19:42:01 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 4856	Quote from: partzman on 2026-06-26, 15:40:55 In reference to my post #192 using the same layout and components I will need the probe positions on the circuit that is being measured to reply to this meaningfully.

partzman	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #208 on: 2026-06-26, 20:47:19 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2307	Quote from: Verpies on 2026-06-26, 19:42:01 I will need the probe positions on the circuit that is being measured to reply to this meaningfully. I hope the following is sufficient to explain the scope connections. The indicated ground is the scope ground connection. Pm Transformer Induction H_Field Cont.png (17.18 kB, 1158x483 - viewed 15 times.)

Verpies	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #209 on: 2026-06-26, 22:35:05 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 4856	Quote from: partzman on 2026-06-26, 20:47:19 I hope the following is sufficient to explain the scope connections. The indicated ground is the scope ground connection. Unfortunately it is not enough. Please draw the path that Ch3 and Ch4 grounds take on that diagram. If Ch4 is a contactless current probe then skip its ground. Also, where in the bridge does Ch2 connect ?

partzman	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #210 on: 2026-06-27, 17:23:21 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2307	Quote from: Verpies on 2026-06-26, 22:35:05 Unfortunately it is not enough. Please draw the path that Ch3 and Ch4 grounds take on that diagram. If Ch4 is a contactless current probe then skip its ground. Also, where in the bridge does Ch2 connect ? OK, is this complete enough? Pm Transformer Induction H_Field Cont.png (27 kB, 1390x501 - viewed 15 times.)

Magluvin	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #211 on: 2026-06-27, 19:59:19 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 1241	Quote from: partzman on 2026-06-27, 17:23:21 OK, is this complete enough? Pm may not be.. hey pm the cap in the core... i see that you have the cap with a wire from top of the cap to the bottom and you are measuring current at the top.. is that wire in the window of the core? mags

Verpies	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #212 on: 2026-06-27, 20:12:59 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 4856	Quote from: partzman on 2026-06-27, 17:23:21 OK, is this complete enough? No. Is the path of Ch3 probe's ground lead like I have drawn with the green line ? Transformer Induction H_Field Cont.png (37.07 kB, 1390x501 - viewed 11 times.)

partzman

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #213 on: 2026-06-27, 21:42:34 »

Group: Experimentalist
Hero Member

Posts: 2307

Quote from: Magluvin on 2026-06-27, 19:59:19

may not be..

hey pm

the cap in the core... i see that you have the cap with a wire from top of the cap to the bottom and you are measuring current at the top.. is that wire in the window of the core?

mags

Yes, the wire and the cap are both in the core window. There is a pix in my post #196 of this assembly with the current probe in position and if you look closely, you can see the wire just to the left of the probe and the two paralleled caps to the right. The important point is that the wire is as close to the primary winding as possible in order to receive the maximum amount of induction from the primary's H-Field as possible.

Pm

partzman	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #214 on: 2026-06-27, 21:43:18 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2307	Quote from: Verpies on 2026-06-27, 20:12:59 No. Is the path of Ch3 probe's ground lead like I have drawn with the green line ? Yes, that is correct. Pm

Verpies

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #215 on: 2026-06-27, 22:07:25 »

Group: Administrator
Hero Member

Posts: 4856

Quote from: partzman on 2026-06-27, 21:43:18

Yes, that is correct.

So you are forming a shorted loop around the core. See the extended green line that marks this loop.

This loop is essentially a shorted secondary winding of your transformer. As in any shorted secondary winding, I expect a high current to flow in it.
The voltage measured by the Ch3 probe is determined by the voltage divider formed by the resistances of the two wire halves that form this shorted loop (the probe's ground wire and clip being one of them) and the voltage determined by the pri:sec turn ratio (I think that's 1:1 in this circuit).

Transformer Induction

H_Field Cont.png (37.05 kB, 1390x501 - viewed 15 times.)

Smudge	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #216 on: 2026-06-28, 10:13:09 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2434	Quote from: Verpies on 2026-06-27, 22:07:25 So you are forming a shorted loop around the core. See the extended green line that marks this loop. Shouldn't that green loop include the probe input impedance (like 10 megohms and 10pF), i.e.not a short circuit? Smudge

Magluvin

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #217 on: 2026-06-28, 10:41:41 »

Group: Mad Scientist
Hero Member

Posts: 1241

im not really concerned with loops outside the core or to say, outside the window of the core. so smudge is correct.

so, if the wire looping the top to the bottom of the cap is what is being induced, then why is the capacitor in the window also? its been a bit, but i thought this was all to show the induction effect of just the cap in the window of the core. are you trying to show that the that the capacitor currents being induced can oppose the currents of the induced wire?

mags

partzman

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #218 on: 2026-06-28, 15:34:30 »

Group: Experimentalist
Hero Member

Posts: 2307

Quote from: Verpies on 2026-06-27, 22:07:25

So you are forming a shorted loop around the core. See the extended green line that marks this loop.

This loop is essentially a shorted secondary winding of your transformer. As in any shorted secondary winding, I expect a high current to flow in it.
The voltage measured by the Ch3 probe is determined by the voltage divider formed by the resistances of the two wire halves that form this shorted loop (the probe's ground wire and clip being one of them) and the voltage determined by the pri:sec turn ratio (I think that's 1:1 in this circuit).

No, this is not correct at all. The current loop is completely inside the LC network (wire and 8uf cap) that is physically inside the core window. In my actual test circuit, there is/was no ground lead connected to the CH3 probe and the scope common ground shown on the schematic was connected to the CH1 probe.

However, I connected a ground lead to the CH3 probe and measured the current in the ground lead with the CH4 current probe. The result is seen below and is showing essentially near zero current both with and without the CH1 ground lead connected.

Pm

Transformer Induction

P6.png (35.4 kB, 800x480 - viewed 6 times.)

Verpies	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #219 on: 2026-06-28, 16:25:31 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 4856	Quote from: partzman on 2026-06-28, 15:34:30 The result is seen below and is showing essentially near zero current both with and without the CH1 ground lead connected. Yes, the scopeshot confirms it .

Verpies

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #220 on: 2026-06-29, 13:36:19 »

Group: Administrator
Hero Member

Posts: 4856

Quote from: Smudge on 2026-06-28, 10:13:09

Shouldn't that green loop include the probe input impedance (like 10 megohms and 10pF), i.e.not a short circuit?
Smudge

Yes, however Ch3 still measured the induced voltage through the window of the core.

To measure the voltage only across C1, the Ch3 probing should be routed like the green line.
Routing it like the orange line will not produce the same results.

Transformer Induction

H_Field Cont.png (36.38 kB, 1390x501 - viewed 8 times.)

Transformer Induction

H_Field Cont.png (36.37 kB, 1390x501 - viewed 132 times.)

partzman

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #221 on: 2026-06-29, 15:42:21 »

Group: Experimentalist
Hero Member

Posts: 2307

Quote from: Verpies on 2026-06-29, 13:36:19

Yes, however Ch3 still measured the induced voltage through the window of the core.

To measure the voltage only across C1, the Ch3 probing should be routed like the green line.
Routing it like the orange line will not produce the same results.

If I understand you correctly, the ground lead for CH3 should pass thru the toroid as shown with the green line, If this is the case then yes, the results will be different. The ground lead will now be charge separated equally with the capacitor which will result in a zero or near zero voltage differential at the probe's input amplifier.

If routed like the orange wire or if no ground lead is attached to the CH3 probe, then the probe's input amplifier has zero volts for one voltage input with the other receiving the voltage across the cap thru the probe's 10M resistance and 3pf capacitance yielding the correct voltage across the cap.

However, for a clear confirmation with no doubt, we can do a differential measurement of the voltage across the LC network when floating off ground. We first remove the ground connection from the LC network and place the CH2(blu) probe on this un-grounded connection with the CH3 probe still in place on the other LC network connection. Both CH2 and CH3 have no ground wires connected to the probes thus forcing the probes electrically to rely on the cable shield of each for their respective ground reference.

P7 shows the results of this differential measurement displayed between the cursors(pnk) as CH3-CH2 on the Math(red) channel.

Regards,
Pm

Transformer Induction

P7.png (31.74 kB, 800x480 - viewed 8 times.)

Verpies

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #222 on: 2026-06-29, 16:03:43 »

Group: Administrator
Hero Member

Posts: 4856

Quote from: partzman on 2026-06-29, 15:42:21

If routed like the orange wire or if no ground lead is attached to the CH3 probe, then the probe's input amplifier has zero volts for one voltage input with the other receiving the voltage across the cap thru the probe's 10M resistance and 3pf capacitance yielding the correct voltage across the cap.

No because of the EMF induced in the orange measurement loop according to the Faraday's law ℰ=-dΦ/dt, where Φ is the magnetic flux threading that loop.
The orange routing generates the same measurement in Ch3 as the red routing depicted below (assuming individual isolated grounds of other channels, which your scope does not have):

Transformer Induction

H_Field Cont.png (32.46 kB, 1390x501 - viewed 11 times.)

partzman

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #223 on: 2026-06-30, 02:02:46 »

Group: Experimentalist
Hero Member

Posts: 2307

Quote from: Verpies on 2026-06-29, 16:03:43

No because of the EMF induced in the orange measurement loop according to the Faraday's law ℰ=-dΦ/dt, where Φ is the magnetic flux threading that loop.
The orange routing generates the same measurement in Ch3 as the red routing depicted below (assuming individual isolated grounds of other channels, which your scope does not have):

OK, so based on your above response, my question for you, Smudge, Mags, and anybody else that is following, does the wire in the center of the core experience any charge separation at all?

If so, to what potential level?

Pm

Smudge

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #224 on: 2026-07-01, 10:08:14 »

Group: Professor
Hero Member

Posts: 2434

The significance of these measurements is the build up and decay of some kind of resonance shown in post #192 and continuous in post #206. What is this resonance? IMO it is due to the self inductance of the 8uF capacitor which appears to be about 0.114uH. it demonstrates that applying an electric field of a certain type (E=-dA/dt) across the shorted capacitor gets inside that closed circuit, and we should be concentrating on how that occurs and can it be put to good use. PM talks of charge separation and that is what the electric field does in the short passing through the core center. It must also do something to the series LC of the capacitor and it is obvious from these results that for rapidly changing E field the short and the LC combination do not exhibit the same charge separation. With the square wave applied E field PM gets this significant effect that AFAIK has not been seen before. I think PM is wrong to ascribe it to an H field, in my opinion it is a feature of the particular type of E field here, and would not occur in an E field between two electrodes. The pumped currents PM is measuring are quite significant, so I think he should put a small resistor in series with his short on the capacitor and determine the output power going into that R determined from the current measured by the current probe. It should be possible to orientate R so that it is at right angles to the E field. Will that give us OU? PM has all the expertise and equipment to find out, and I get the feeling that he has done something like this before. What is new is the realization that a magnetic vector potential derived E field can get inside a closed circuit within that E field, a circuit that does not enclose magnetic flux.

Smudge