Transformer Induction

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Itsu

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #325 on: 2026-07-19, 16:10:22 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2026-07-19, 15:18:08

Let's say our wire has no outside influence from any type of field or heat source so that the atoms in the wire are basically charge balanced. We would therefore have a net zero potential measured across the ends. Now, let's place the wire in a charge separation environment. This will result in a separation of the electrons from the atoms and they will collect in one end of the wire that becomes negative. This electron deficiency around the nucleus leaves the remaining protons and/or neutrons on the other end of the wire that produces the positive end. Yes, I do believe that these electron deficient protons will move in the wire.

Pm

PM,

IMO, in a metal, there are only the fixed metal atoms (neutral), free electrons (negative) and fixed metal ions (positive) all electrically in balance (neutral).

Is it not so that putting this metal in a "charge separation environment" (what is that?), will attract / repel the free electrons to say one end of the metal wire which then becomes negative, but as the atoms and ions are fixed they cannot being attracted / repelled (moved) to the other end causing it to be positive.
But as the negative electrons are moved to one end causing it to become negative, that means the other end will become positive only due to lack of negative electrons.

Itsu

Magluvin

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #326 on: 2026-07-20, 00:57:18 »

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Sorry, but I'm with Itsu. Actually, I learned this in school in the 80s.

I only bring up the possibility that the efield as we speak of is not a magnetic field component. my ideas on it is that the efield is a product of the wire that is induced, or to say influenced by a moving magnetic field.

I see the influence on an electron by a moving magnetic field similar to refraction of light through glass at an angle. if we can agree that the refraction 'influenced' by the glass can happen and is real, then it should not be hard to imagine a similar effect between an electron moving at right angles to a magnetic field. not saying it happens exactly the same way, but in a way that makes it a possibility.

Hey, maybe I'm wrong. Don't know for sure yet but my mind keeps working on it. Working on it as if there is something wrong with the conventional thinking on the subject. Like the cap-to-cap deal. Something just didn't feel right about losing 50% of the energy by way of resistance. The logic just wasn't there for me. but when Milehigh said that in an ideal situation that if we started with 10V in a 10uf cap and connected it to a 10uf cap that was 0V, we would end up with 7.07V in each cap in order to have no loss. Then it clicked... Ampere's law proves that there is no way to end up wit 7.07V in each cap starting with 10V in the source cap. We still would have 5V in each cap and a 50% loss. Simple as counting the electrons transferred from pos and neg plates.

So this has me going the same way.

mags

Verpies	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #327 on: 2026-07-20, 02:37:15 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 4856	So do you think you would be able to permanently push (or pull) electrons from metal spheres this way ?: ...or more practically, like this: Spheres are connected to coils with several microwave-oven diodes in series. ...and would a spark occur if you disconnected these spheres and brought them close together ?

Magluvin	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #328 on: 2026-07-20, 15:23:14 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 1241	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPXv063O5B8 mags

Verpies

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #329 on: 2026-07-20, 16:46:17 »

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Quote from: Magluvin on 2026-07-20, 15:23:14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPXv063O5B8

This was a well-made video illustrating moving capacitor plates apart.
However it was charged with an electrostatic machine - a very different source than the half-dipole antenna or balanced TC source, because one generates surface charges and the other conducted current.
It also answers a different question - what happens to surface charges on the dielectric in a capacitor as its plates move apart rather than the pumping of electrons by conducted current and moving the electrodes closer together.

partzman

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #330 on: 2026-07-20, 20:29:33 »

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Itsu, Mags, Verpies,

I have concluded that in my recent research and experimentation, I have been both correct and incorrect in my analysis of "charge separation" in these experiments. Correct in the fact that certain entities such as electrolytes and dielectrics have been charge separated but not so with a piece of wire! A piece of wire must have a source of induction to allow it to exhibit a voltage potential across it's ends. Charge separation can happen in a piece of wire but it will have a short life due to the conductivity of the wire. So, in my experiments when I measure the V/T across a piece of wire in the center hole of a toroid assembly, this is a result of a flux change that is inducing that wire. This realization came while studying the work of J. Edwards and T.K. Saha and in particular their paper titled "Establishment of Flux in Magnetic Cores" that is attached below.

What I've been seeing in my work is what they describe as their interpretation of what happens in transformer induction. I now realize the cause of the E-Field generation from the primary I, the H-Field and the B field in the hole of the core. Essentially, we have a magnetic transmission line that uses the inside of the core hole as a wave guide. Instead of me try to explain it in my words, please read the attached paper for the details.

Pm

ESTABLISHMENT OF FLUX IN MAGNETIC CORES.pdf (248.04 kB - downloaded 18 times.)

Magluvin	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #331 on: 2026-07-21, 05:31:30 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 1241	just thonking... i wonder if we suspended a wire through the core, positioned in the middle straight up and down, but loose, and loaded it, even short, would it move if we have input to a primary winding on the core just on one side, not all the way around? maybe... mags

Magluvin	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #332 on: 2026-07-21, 17:03:29 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 1241	i think i have what i need to do that test. mags

Magluvin	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #333 on: 2026-07-27, 15:44:19 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 1241	will put up some pics tonight. have toroid core that is in 2 pieces. the mating surfaces are very clean cut. got them from an induction fluorescent ring light. have 1 side wound for input. making a stand to mount it and hang loose wire through it. lets see if it moves.... mags

Magluvin	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #334 on: 2026-07-28, 04:22:16 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 1241	mags Transformer Induction 20260727_231955.jpg (5602.55 kB, 4080x3060 - viewed 58 times.)

Magluvin	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #335 on: 2026-07-28, 19:59:37 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 1241	just a survey... will the wire will move or not? pulse the input winding in the pic. hang wire verrtically through the core and short the wire ends. mags

partzman

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #336 on: 2026-07-28, 21:05:31 »

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Quote from: Magluvin on 2026-07-28, 19:59:37

just a survey... will the wire will move or not?

pulse the input winding in the pic. hang wire verrtically through the core and short the wire ends.

mags

With the wire ends shorted around the outside of the core then yes, a thin wire should move with a pulse to the primary due to the Primary's H-Field or the leakage flux whichever one wishes to use.

Pm

Magluvin	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #337 on: 2026-07-28, 21:21:00 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 1241	which way do you think the wire will move in reference to primary position? mags

Smudge

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #338 on: 2026-07-29, 08:21:31 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2026-07-28, 21:05:31

With the wire ends shorted around the outside of the core then yes, a thin wire should move with a pulse to the primary due to the Primary's H-Field or the leakage flux whichever one wishes to use.

Pm

The leakage flux (which is the field outside the core and of greatest magnitude in the core hole) does not have the same pattern as the Primary's H-Field (the field from the primary coil if no core were present). So you shouldn't use the latter, you should only use the leakage flux. The current induced into the shorted turn will influence the flux within the core hence also the leakage flux so it is a complicated procedure to establish the forces on it. But the experimental movement observation will obey Fleming's LH rule and give you an indication.

Smudge

partzman

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #339 on: 2026-07-29, 15:52:48 »

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Quote from: Smudge on 2026-07-29, 08:21:31

The leakage flux (which is the field outside the core and of greatest magnitude in the core hole) does not have the same pattern as the Primary's H-Field (the field from the primary coil if no core were present). So you shouldn't use the latter, you should only use the leakage flux. The current induced into the shorted turn will influence the flux within the core hence also the leakage flux so it is a complicated procedure to establish the forces on it. But the experimental movement observation will obey Fleming's LH rule and give you an indication.

Smudge

I maintain that the H-Field on the inside (in the hole) of the primary wire on the toroid is the same as (or creates) the so-called leakage flux. Therefore, if one sets up an experiment (which I have not done) that is similar or equal to mine in respect to polarities and phase, the deflection of the thin wire will be away from the primary.

Edit: My last statement is ambiguous! It should have read, "Therefore, if one sets up an experiment (which I have not done) that is similar or equal to mine in respect to polarities and phase, the deflection of the thin wire will be away from the primary with a positive pulse applied to the primary and deflected towards the primary with a negative pulse."

Edit2: Had it right the first time.

Pm

« Last Edit: 2026-07-30, 16:10:19 by partzman »

Magluvin	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #340 on: 2026-07-30, 14:15:34 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 1241	if the test wire through the toroid is shorted, it will move in an opposite direction depending on the input pulse polarity?? mags

partzman

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #341 on: 2026-07-30, 15:34:19 »

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Quote from: Magluvin on 2026-07-30, 14:15:34

if the test wire through the toroid is shorted, it will move in an opposite direction depending on the input pulse polarity??

mags

Actually after more consideration on your question above, the deflection of the wire will depend on the current in the primary and not the voltage. So, the current in the primary will not change polarity but will simply rise to a peak and then return to zero. Therefore, the deflection will be in the same direction for the entire cycle.

Thanks for the heads up!

Pm

Smudge

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #342 on: 2026-07-31, 07:39:20 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2026-07-30, 15:34:19

Actually after more consideration on your question above, the deflection of the wire will depend on the current in the primary and not the voltage.

The deflection will also depend upon the direction of current induced into the wire.

Quote

So, the current in the primary will not change polarity but will simply rise to a peak and then return to zero.

And the magnetic fields from that current will rise and fall. The risng field wil induce one polarity of voltage (hence current) in the wire while the falling field will induce the opposite polarity.

Quote

Therefore, the deflection will be in the same direction for the entire cycle.

I disagree for the reason just stated.

Smudge

Verpies

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #343 on: 2026-07-31, 16:50:45 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2026-07-30, 15:34:19

So, the current in the primary will not change polarity but will simply rise to a peak and then return to zero.

That's right but only below some L/R ratio vs. risetime and always when the resistance of the circuit is zero.
For an electric current to flow along the wire, the wire must be a part of a closed circuit / loop.

Current induced in a conductive circuit by magnetic flux rising and falling in time (X axis)
in the same manner to the left and right of the Y axis, for different circuit resistances.

partzman

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #344 on: 2026-07-31, 20:24:30 »

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Quote from: Smudge on 2026-07-31, 07:39:20

The deflection will also depend upon the direction of current induced into the wire.And the magnetic fields from that current will rise and fall. The risng field wil induce one polarity of voltage (hence current) in the wire while the falling field will induce the opposite polarity. I disagree for the reason just stated.

Smudge

This is what I thought originally but after more consideration, I came to the last conclusion that the force would be unidirectional. I plan to do this simple experiment but the resulting deflection may be hard to see when the operating frequency is ~100kHz.

Pm

partzman

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #345 on: 2026-07-31, 20:27:31 »

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Quote from: Verpies on 2026-07-31, 16:50:45

That's right but only below some L/R ratio vs. risetime and always when the resistance of the circuit is zero.
For an electric current to flow along the wire, the wire must be a part of a closed circuit / loop.

Current induced in a conductive circuit by magnetic flux rising and falling in time (X axis)
in the same manner to the left and right of the Y axis, for different circuit resistances.

So, in my experimental device, the resistance of the primary is low so this will allow a unidirectional induction!?! I will run some tests and we shall see!

Pm

partzman

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #346 on: 2026-07-31, 21:08:06 »

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OK, I ran a test with the two toroids stacked with a 12T primary which is pulsed at 100kHz when using a 48v DC supply. The fine wire is 36ga (.005" dia) single urethane coated and is ~4"OAL. The shorted outside part of the turn is 22ga for support and to complete the circuit.

I first tried single pulses using manual triggering with a Rigol DG4162 generator. Using a white piece of paper for backing in the toroid hole, I could not detect any movement with these old eyes!

Next I tried a series of 10 pulses again using manual triggering, and no detectable movement was seen!

Lastly, I tried a short burst of continuous pulses whereby the wire turned red from the current (~11.5A rms). There was noticeable movement toward the primary which I consider to be the result of the wire expansion along with the wire's curvature.

Edit: Mags, have you seen any deflection?

Pm

Magluvin	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #347 on: 2026-07-31, 22:02:33 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 1241	havnt had time yet. been working 60-70hrs wk. that there needs to end.. was going to do this weekend. i get sun off mags

Magluvin	Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #348 on: 2026-07-31, 22:03:26 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 1241	how many primary turns did you do? mags

Verpies

Re: Transformer Induction « Reply #349 on: 2026-07-31, 22:44:59 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2026-07-31, 20:27:31

So, in my experimental device, the resistance of the primary is low so this will allow a unidirectional induction!?!

Primary ?! No, we are talking about "induced" current in a wire so this implies "secondary". There is a fundamental difference between the "inducing" and the "induced" circuit.
The resistance of the primary (the winding that generates the main magnetic flux in the core and leakage flux in its hole) is not relevant to this discussion.