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Author Topic: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils  (Read 2725 times)
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img  Verpies
Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #25 on: 2026-01-08, 21:47:24 »

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@Allcanadian

Attached is a conversation from another forum that you might find interesting.
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #26 on: 2026-01-09, 02:53:39 »
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Quote from: Verpies on 2026-01-08, 21:27:10
Do you realize that the spinning measuring circuit will be in the same reference frame as the electrons in the spinning disk ...and penetrated by the same magnetic field ?
YES - and that reference frame is NOT an inertial frame! 
Spin implies an accelerating frame of reference... that's what makes it so interesting, right?
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #27 on: 2026-01-09, 07:34:01 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2026-01-08, 21:19:03
OK, charge separation is what I'm after, in the lab - and store that in some kind of capacitor WHICH IS ATTACHED TO THE SPINNING SYSTEM.  THIS STORES ENERGY, E = 1/2 CV^2.

My question is - how can we do this?  perhaps using a diode in series with the Cap so that the Cap does not discharge when the spinning system is slowed to a stop, so we can measure the voltage 'in' the capacitor...

I think this can be done...  I'm seeing a flat disk-magnet spinning on axis.  A Cap in series with a Schottky diode is attached appropriately  - one wire to the outer edge (how?) and the other near the hole in the disk.  Spin it fast, charging the Cap, then stop and measure V in the Cap.

I agree.

We know the spinning magnet-disk will produce a charge separation however it's only a few volts because the generator has only one turn with the induced conductor length being the radius on the disk. In effect, the disk radius is the first half of the circuit loop and the external circuit is the second half. The question which was on some of the greatest minds in history like Faraday, Ampere and Tesla was how to close the external loop within the motional system.

My solution was funny because if all we want to do is measure the induced emf across the disk we don't need a closed loop. I just spun up a magnet-disk and used my electrometer to measure the potential or charge density at the disk outer edge. The difference in disk edge potential between a static disk and one spinning is the induced potential.

For example, a 12v battery has a potential difference of 12v however the (-) terminal potential is -6 and the (+) terminal potential +6, the difference in potential is 12v. Since the difference in potential is equal and opposite I only need to measure the potential on one terminal to know what the other terminal is and the difference in potential.


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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #28 on: 2026-01-09, 16:01:52 »

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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2026-01-09, 07:34:01
In effect, the disk radius is the first half of the circuit loop and the external circuit is the second half.
Don't you think that when the second half of the circuit is moving exactly like the first half then the EMF induced in them is the same ?

Quote from: Allcanadian on 2026-01-09, 07:34:01
I just spun up a magnet-disk and used my electrometer to measure the potential or charge density at the disk outer edge.
Has the electrometer shown anything different than the control ?
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #29 on: 2026-01-09, 18:59:57 »

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Quote from: Verpies on 2026-01-09, 16:01:52
Don't you think that when the second half of the circuit is moving exactly like the first half then the EMF induced in them is the same ?

i think in general yes. but, the field strength on the spinning disk that we would be inducing vs the field strength inducing the outer circuitry wires, is or can be way different if care is taken in routing those outer connections in order to reduce that issue. and then the situation will be minimal vs "exactly" as you say.

probably one of possibly many ways of reducing or negating any affect would be to have 2 ring magnets, one on each side of the disk, in attraction through the disk, and then magnetic iron plates on the outside of the sandwich that make a magnetic connection to each other at the rotating shaft.  so now we apply our connection, brushes, however, to the outer edge of the induced disk and the inner radius of the induced disk connected to the shaft, then any outer portions of the circuit will not be influenced because we have contained the magnets fields to the induced disk alone.  even if any portions of the outer circuit are rotating with the sandwich.

mags
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #30 on: 2026-01-12, 17:56:49 »
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Real experimental data:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gduYoT9sMaE&t=2s

I'm intrigued that moving the stator = two brushes in a red holder as shown in the screen-shot,
while the DISK AND THE MAGNET are STATIONARY
this motion back-and-forth of the STATOR ALONE generates a voltage, as seen on the oscilloscope.

Does Lenz's law apply?
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #31 on: 2026-01-12, 21:39:54 »

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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2026-01-12, 17:56:49
this motion back-and-forth of the STATOR ALONE generates a voltage, as seen on the oscilloscope.
Because the load circuit is not moving in the same way as the disk.
Motion is relative, so it does not matter whether the disk moves or the load circuit moves ...or both, as long as there is a relative motion between them.

Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2026-01-12, 17:56:49
Does Lenz's law apply?
Only if the total magnetic flux threading the load circuit changes.


Here are some further developments by the same author.
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #32 on: 2026-01-12, 22:23:02 »

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very nice prof!   the moving of the brush assy is surprising.  one way to eliminate any possible induction of the brush wiring would be to twisted pair the wires to the brushes and end the twist between the 2 brushes, leaving equal length of leads to each brush from between them.  and try to keep the twisted wires coming to the disk vertical, as high as possible, all to eliminate any induction to them and the brushes to a minimal. if it still shows output, then the paradox just went a step deeper. :D

love the way you set it up to engage one or the other or both with the drive motor. O0. 

i would not have thought to just move the brushes alone. great idea!  excelent video. ;)

mags
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #33 on: 2026-01-13, 23:36:18 »

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ok.  i see it is someone elses vid

11yrs ago

mags
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #34 on: 2026-01-15, 12:22:44 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2025-12-29, 17:43:27
...
Question:   will there arise a VOLTAGE when everything co-rotates?   what would YOU PREDICT?   
(I predict YES, there will be a voltage.)
 NO brushes, V measurement is co-rotating with the magnets and coils.

Since all movements are covariant, no current is to be expected.
A co-rotating observer at the centre does not see any conductors moving. No Lorentz force, since the speed of the conductors as seen by the central observer is zero. In F=q.vxB, v is the speed of the charge as seen by the same observer who sees B.

« Last Edit: 2026-01-15, 13:17:49 by F6FLT »


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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #35 on: 2026-01-26, 17:53:21 »
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Quote from: F6FLT on 2026-01-15, 12:22:44
Since all movements are covariant, no current is to be expected.
A co-rotating observer at the centre does not see any conductors moving. No Lorentz force, since the speed of the conductors as seen by the central observer is zero. In F=q.vxB, v is the speed of the charge as seen by the same observer who sees B.

NOT correct, according to this experimental evidence:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpQ6jVDaMKI

With volt-meter and probes co-rotating with disc, observed by co-rotating phone/video, meter registers about - 4.9 mV.  Around 300 rpm, which is not very fast.
Agreed, this is a somewhat crude set-up, but the results appear solid. 

   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #36 on: 2026-01-27, 07:30:05 »

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The magnets are arranged in a flat array so that they expose multiple poles.
Also, a commutator is used.
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #37 on: 2026-01-27, 09:29:06 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2026-01-26, 17:53:21
NOT correct, according to this experimental evidence:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpQ6jVDaMKI

With volt-meter and probes co-rotating with disc, observed by co-rotating phone/video, meter registers about - 4.9 mV.  Around 300 rpm, which is not very fast.
Agreed, this is a somewhat crude set-up, but the results appear solid.

Could you summarise the experiment in a diagram?
I see this as an inconclusive experiment, as there are sliding contacts on the disc or sphere, meaning that conductors are not covariant.
« Last Edit: 2026-01-27, 09:33:17 by F6FLT »


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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #38 on: 2026-01-27, 10:42:16 »
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I have already conducted a much simpler and more conclusive experiment showing that no EMF is to be expected from covariant conductors in a magnetic field.
A high-capacity capacitor (1000µF) in series with a high-value resistor (100 K to 1 M) is connected radially between the centre and the edge of a conductive disc.
The disc is concentric with a cylindrical magnet.
The capacitor rotates with the disc at high speed and is supposed to charge, slowly due to the resistance.
After a certain amount of time, the rotation is stopped and the voltage across the capacitor is measured. Due to the resistance, the capacitor has not had time to discharge. But the voltage is zero. Zero, even if the capacitor circuit is spaced away from the disc and cuts a weaker magnetic field than that experienced by the disc. Still zero.

The cause of induced EMF is not the magnetic field but the relative velocity of the charges cutting across the field flux in one part of the circuit relative to the other, which means that the Lorentz force has a non-zero resultant on a closed circuit.
The idea I had seen among those who hoped to draw current from a conductor rotating with the earth in its magnetic field was to mask part of the circuit with ferrite or something else so that this part could no longer be considered to be cutting the flux or field lines, which would cause a permanent imbalance in the circuit and therefore a current.
This was a gross error, for an obvious reason: a current cannot be masked by a static configuration of charges, because, seen from the same frame of reference, the electric field of charges at rest does not have the same shape as that of moving charges.
After more than a century, it is time to understand the basics of the theory of relativity, which is the result of simple common sense based on observations and measurements. If you have a unique alternative theory that can explain the variation in the lifespan of radioactive elements with their speed, Mercury's perihelion, Ampère's law of force, the drift of moving clocks, etc., etc., etc., go ahead.


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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #39 on: 2026-01-27, 17:52:54 »
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  Interesting that you evidently overlook that part of the video where the meter co-rotates with the disk (no commutator needed):
27m40s to 28m11s.

  He shows a (negative) voltage on the meter, observed by a co-rotating phone taking video of the meter.

Another completely independent experiment shows a similar result, that is, a voltage is seen when the meter co-rotates with a cylinder (replacing the disk).  Here the data are transmitted to the lab frame via bluetooth, the experimenter notes.

  I hope you all will watch the entire video this time.  The experimenter has the audacity to challenge Einstein, based on his experimental results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5wgmTGi5pU
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #40 on: 2026-01-27, 22:13:58 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2026-01-27, 17:52:54
  Interesting that you evidently overlook that part of the video where the meter co-rotates with the disk (no commutator needed):
27m40s to 28m11s.

  He shows a (negative) voltage on the meter, observed by a co-rotating phone taking video of the meter.

I do not dispute this possibility, I dispute the explanations given or the hypotheses made, all of which I have read on this subject were clearly false.
If there really is a current, either it is an artefact, or a new phenomenon is at play that must remain compatible with relativity, otherwise we would have to explain why the thousands of experiments that verify relativity should not work.

Quote
Another completely independent experiment shows a similar result, that is, a voltage is seen when the meter co-rotates with a cylinder (replacing the disk).  Here the data are transmitted to the lab frame via bluetooth, the experimenter notes.

  I hope you all will watch the entire video this time.  The experimenter has the audacity to challenge Einstein, based on his experimental results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5wgmTGi5pU

This experiment seems more interesting. I will try to analyse it.

The experimenter has "the audacity to challenge Einstein" while his conclusion no. 2 shows that he has a poor understanding of his experiment from the point of view of classical electromagnetism (not even relativity).

Do you agree with him? Have you eliminated all possible alternatives and artefacts?
What is your detailed analysis of this experiment?

« Last Edit: 2026-01-27, 22:15:11 by F6FLT »


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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #41 on: 2026-01-27, 23:09:02 »

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Quote from: F6FLT on 2026-01-27, 10:42:16
I have already conducted a much simpler and more conclusive experiment showing that no EMF is to be expected from covariant conductors in a magnetic field.
A high-capacity capacitor (1000µF) in series with a high-value resistor (100 K to 1 M) is connected radially between the centre and the edge of a conductive disc.
The disc is concentric with a cylindrical magnet.
The capacitor rotates with the disc at high speed and is supposed to charge, slowly due to the resistance.
After a certain amount of time, the rotation is stopped and the voltage across the capacitor is measured. Due to the resistance, the capacitor has not had time to discharge. But the voltage is zero. Zero, even if the capacitor circuit is spaced away from the disc and cuts a weaker magnetic field than that experienced by the disc. Still zero.



I suppose you didnt make a video of that experiment.  You say after a certain amount of time the rotation is stopped.. How much time?  Considering the presented video, 4.9mv was shown to be produced. You say a 1000uf cap that you used with 100k to 1Mohm resistor.  How long did your rotor spin? What speed? How long did it take to come to a stop? On the other hand, how long do you think it would take normally to charge that 1000uf cap through a 1Mohm resistor, to 4.9mv? How long might it take to discharge that cap to 0v from 4.9mv through a 100kohm resistor? How long would it take to discharge that cap from 4.9mv with the meter afterwards?

you seem to say you have done all these experiments, but you lack a lot of details. No pics?  No vids?  Im thinking you just made it up. Just my opinion. for some reason, C.C, you seem to want to downgrade the possibilities, any way you can. Like Jones said, you didnt even look at the vid well enough to know that a commutator wasn't used when the reading was taken, yet blamed commutation for some effect. ^-^

If you did do the experiment as you say, you would have been better to use a switch, might have to be made and tuned, but a switch that only connects at or above a particular rotor speed, notably above the speed intended to test, that is activated by centrifugal force. So now no need for the obscenely high value resistors.  If the cap gets charged, the switch will disconnect when the rotor slows down and no possible drain. But thats just me.

Mags
« Last Edit: 2026-01-28, 00:37:16 by Magluvin »
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #42 on: 2026-01-28, 09:22:30 »
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@Magluvin

I also tried the switch experiment. With centrifugal force, at a certain speed, a flexible brass contact unlocked and could not return to its initial position. There was also no voltage at the capacitor terminals.
Why would I have made a video? Do you think I'm here like a lot of FE clowns, to entertain the crowd with a commonplace experiment whose negative outcome has been known for ages? There weren't even smartphones when I did this experiment, nor was there enough bandwidth on the networks to produce a quality video, and wasting my time and that of others is not my cup of tea. I even found one of my old posts under my former username exnihiloest where I had already mentioned this experiment: it was in 2011! https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1063.msg16354#msg16354

If you doubt it, try the experiment yourself. I'm not here to prove that the laws of electromagnetism are sound (even though I'm challenging one) or to educate believers in fake news or conspiracy theorists. So many others have done that since the early 19th century; just look at the lectures and lab experiments.

The burden of proof lies with those who dispute them. I cannot even understand how anyone could dispute the laws of induction concerning the Lorentz force in a circuit where all the conductors are covariant, without having carried out such a simple experiment themselves, which any experimenter, even a teenager and even one who is not particularly gifted, can do.
Are you not capable of doing such a simple experiment yourself? If so, at least do not insinuate that I have not done it, and refrain from advising me to do it in this or that way! I have no time to waste. And if that is not the case, do it, and describe your own experiments to us, accompanied by a schematic diagram, your measurement protocol, the measurement results, and how they differ from the results expected by physicists.
« Last Edit: 2026-01-28, 10:01:38 by F6FLT »


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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #43 on: 2026-01-28, 16:18:54 »

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So what is it you are saying doesnt work?  are you saying the paradox is bs?  Are you saying that spinning the disk and magnet together produces no output?


Mags
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #44 on: 2026-01-28, 22:16:19 »
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I have read everyone's posts, thank you all for sharing. 
Many articles in the past have introduced the FARADAY Homopolar. Some articles claim it can achieve COP=5, while Grok says COP <1. 

Patrick J. Kelly's book 
"A Practical Guide to 'Free-Energy' Devices," page 1275, mentions: Paramahamsa Tewari received an Indian patent (397/Bom/94) in 1994 for a COP=2.5 version. 

I think the design in the first post by the moderator PhysicsProf is intended to increase the output voltage of the FARADAY Homopolar, making it easier to measure its COP and Lenz's law.

https://ia800504.us.archive.org/32/items/PJKbook/PJKbook.pdf

https://www.comsol.com/blogs/redesigning-faradays-wheel-creating-efficient-homopolar-generators?setlang=1
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #45 on: Today at 00:34:18 »

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we should all be able to agree that if we spin the inducing disk alone, that we can get output.  Now, if we spin the disk and the magnet and see output, some claim that it is the magnet spinning that induces the wires measuring the currents in the disk. Well that shouldnt fly because spinning the magnet alone does not produce notable current. Also lets compare what we get in output when we only spin the disk and when we spin the magnet with the disk.  in all examples it appears to be the same. so that should prove that the external wires measuring the currents are not being induced. O0

mags
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #46 on: Today at 06:06:01 »

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so f6 is on to something...  if the connections are spinning with the disk, the wires should be induced also and no output. So how did the guy get his meter to read output while it and its leads are spinning with the disk?

Sorry f6.  thinking about my last post had me think on it more

Mags
   
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