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Author Topic: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils  (Read 4287 times)
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #50 on: 2026-01-30, 08:47:27 »

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I think the paradox is easily resolved when you imagine the magnetic field from the magnet coming from electric charge that is spinning around a loop. That spin speed is so enormous that the trivial rates we can create mechanically that could add or subtract to that rotation speed are negligible.  Then it is clear that our concept of the magnetic field rotating (of field lines moving in synch with the magnet) is a ficticious concept for this particular rotation axis.

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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #51 on: 2026-01-30, 09:04:06 »
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Quote from: Magluvin on 2026-01-30, 02:31:16
well as with f6s argument, we can realize that any leads, measuring devices, that are spinning with the magnet and induced disk, they are now part of a loop where both sides of that loop are being induced in the same direction thus canceling current flow in that loop.  So when someone claims that creating that loop in a known standardized way via brushes and stationary leads that are part of the output or measuring loop, is being induced and that is where the current is coming from when we have the magnet and the induced disk rotating together, then they would be wrong due to the fact that if we only spin the magnet, there is no current produced in the disk. so why would there be any currents produced in the stationary leads when the magnet spins??

The paradox arose by the thought of the fields of the magnet were being produced by the magnet and therefore rotating that magnet should have induced the disk by dragging its magnetic field through the disk to induce currents. magnets are more of a lens of sorts, that alter magnetic fields that are all around us. so when the donut magnet spins, it is only altering the fields that surround it, concentrating them in a polarized form, not dragging them around.  in the vid that jones first presented, where the guy switches his mech to only spin the magnet, we do see noise in the scope , similar to your idea of groves. that noise is due to the inconsistencies of the strength of the alteration of the field as the magnet spins. it was very low noise but noticeable.

so the best way to look at the paradox is, do we still have mech drag when we spin the disk and magnet together and load the disk across the inner and outer contacts of the disk? 

if there is no drag loaded, then we have a lenzless gen. which would be great.  if there is drag, what is it dragging against??  is it a seed to anti-gravity? or magnetic propulsion?  think on that. both disk and magnet rotating together and if loading the disk creates mech drag, what is it dragging against???

drag or no drag, we seem to have something that is new and unusual in our field of study here. Each proposition should yield some excitement and intrigue.   like the Nmachine. he probably experienced one or the other. was probably shut down for it. but from what i remember of it, he was after a high eff gen.. did he find no drag?

Mags

Interesting arguments!  Also Smudge.

I've decided to basically replicate the experiment pictured below, First oscillating the rotor back and forth which is very easy to do, and observe the voltage on an oscilloscope.
The trick is to have a "high-gain amplifier" such as shown in the picture, which amplifies the very small voltages generated. 

Can anyone help here - I need to find commercially or have a schematic to build such a "high-gain amplifier."  Thanks!
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #52 on: 2026-01-30, 13:40:34 »
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A second question to ask is why the effect of Lorentz forces is not compatible with Lorentz forces here! The need for a sensitive electrometer to measure a result that should be much greater proves this.
But we also have answers. When, in the video, the author claims that his experiment defies Einstein, even though he has not even attempted to eliminate the many possible artefacts, we know that he is either incompetent or has something to sell.
« Last Edit: 2026-01-30, 13:47:29 by F6FLT »


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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #53 on: 2026-01-30, 13:55:57 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2026-01-30, 09:04:06
...
I've decided to basically replicate the experiment pictured below, First oscillating the rotor back and forth which is very easy to do, and observe the voltage on an oscilloscope.
The trick is to have a "high-gain amplifier" such as shown in the picture, which amplifies the very small voltages generated. 
...

Sensitive detectors (µV) require extreme experimental precautions, otherwise anything can be detected: a Seebeck effect, which was discussed in another thread; an electrostatic effect linked to friction; the release of internal polarisation in the dielectric under the effect of centrifugal acceleration; an induced current linked to vibrations or ambient field that the slightest non-linearity in the device's input circuit will translate into direct current...

A laboratory multimeter or voltmeter is required. And to eliminate many artefacts, the device must be able to rotate without the magnet, and also with the magnet in either direction to check for voltage reversal.
« Last Edit: 2026-01-30, 14:15:39 by F6FLT »


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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #54 on: 2026-01-30, 14:14:49 »

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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2026-01-30, 09:04:06

Can anyone help here - I need to find commercially or have a schematic to build such a "high-gain amplifier."  Thanks!
Horowitz & Hill – The Art of Electronics will help you.
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #55 on: 2026-01-30, 14:34:57 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2026-01-30, 08:47:27
...That spin speed is so enormous that the trivial rates we can create mechanically that could add or subtract to that rotation speed are negligible.
...

Theoretically, yes.
But perhaps not. I conducted the following experiment, though I cannot recall if I mentioned it here. When a fixed or rotating cylindrical magnet is placed opposite the end of a motor's ferromagnetic shaft protruding a few centimetres beyond the motor, a significant PD is obtained between two sliding contacts touching the shaft transversely, one near the magnet and the other further away, near the motor.

If we analyse this in the rotating reference frame of the shaft, the electrons see the sliding contacts rotating at high speed in front of the magnet. The EMF obtained by the Lorentz force in the one near the magnet is much greater than the other, so a current will flow in the circuit.
But if we analyse it from the reference frame at rest, we have an analysis problem, unless we assume that the rotation of the axis has a significant effect on the ‘current loop’ of the electrons located there, which ‘fall’ into the magnetic potential gradient along the ferromagnetic axis of the motor, because the field is higher at the end than at the other side.

I don't have the definitive answer.
« Last Edit: 2026-01-30, 14:44:23 by F6FLT »


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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #56 on: 2026-01-30, 16:16:49 »

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maybe there is a simpler way to look at one aspect here. below is a pic of a very simple motor that all of us have seen.  what if we make it so the wire is attached to the magnet and battery and suspend it 'all' as a single rotating object.  will it all spin? would be unusual if it does...

11yrs ago i did this experiment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s56ghlm0oJw

with all this talk here, it made me think.  will it all spin?   cant do it right now but it is simple enough to put together later today. 

mags
« Last Edit: 2026-01-30, 16:18:28 by Magluvin »
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #57 on: 2026-01-30, 17:41:21 »
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Quote from: Magluvin on 2026-01-30, 16:16:49
...what if we make it so the wire is attached to the magnet and battery and suspend it 'all' as a single rotating object.  will it all spin? would be unusual if it does...
...

Nothing will rotate. The current carries the charges at speed v. The Lorentz force is proportional to speed. All charges have the same speed, but don't forget that speed is a vector. Over one turn of the circuit, there are as many electrons going in one direction as in the opposite direction, so the resultant Lorentz force is zero overall on the circuit.

However, the force is not zero on the different parts of the circuit. The circuit will not move, but the Lorentz force tends to deform it, as in the case of a solenoid whose turns spread apart when it is energised.

This is why, in order to rotate, the circuit must consist of at least two parts that are movable relative to each other so that the force on one part can result in movement. If this is done subtly, as in your experiment with the wires around the battery that cut off the magnetic flux, or with a Faraday disc, a rotational movement can be maintained.


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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #58 on: 2026-01-30, 18:50:07 »

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im just trying to reverse engineer the idea that if both the magnet and disk spin, we get currents in the disk, then the wire of the simple homopolar motor should want to move the whole assy if the battery applies current through that wire.  ill test it and see.

mags
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #59 on: 2026-01-31, 08:42:19 »

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Quote from: F6FLT on 2026-01-30, 14:34:57
Theoretically, yes.
But perhaps not. I conducted the following experiment, though I cannot recall if I mentioned it here. When a fixed or rotating cylindrical magnet is placed opposite the end of a motor's ferromagnetic shaft protruding a few centimetres beyond the motor, a significant PD is obtained between two sliding contacts touching the shaft transversely, one near the magnet and the other further away, near the motor.

If we analyse this in the rotating reference frame of the shaft, the electrons see the sliding contacts rotating at high speed in front of the magnet. The EMF obtained by the Lorentz force in the one near the magnet is much greater than the other, so a current will flow in the circuit.
But if we analyse it from the reference frame at rest, we have an analysis problem, unless we assume that the rotation of the axis has a significant effect on the ‘current loop’ of the electrons located there, which ‘fall’ into the magnetic potential gradient along the ferromagnetic axis of the motor, because the field is higher at the end than at the other side.
I don't see the problem.  The magnetic potential gradient along the axis will be small compared to the Lorentz EMFs and  can probably be ignored.  The two different values of Lorentz EMF are present for both analyses, the only difference being where the EMF occurs.  In your first case it is the moving external circuit and in the second case it is in the two rotating "Faraday discs" (cross section of the shaft at the contact points).

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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #60 on: 2026-01-31, 09:26:50 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2026-01-31, 08:42:19
I don't see the problem.  The magnetic potential gradient along the axis will be small compared to the Lorentz EMFs and  can probably be ignored.  The two different values of Lorentz EMF are present for both analyses, the only difference being where the EMF occurs.  In your first case it is the moving external circuit and in the second case it is in the two rotating "Faraday discs" (cross section of the shaft at the contact points).

Smudge

The problem is this: we must obtain the same result when performing the analysis in one reference frame or the other.
When we perform the analysis from the rotating reference frame, we see the sliding contacts rotating, thus cutting the magnetic flux, which produces Lorentz force, and therefore current. Since the sliding contact near the magnet produces more EMF than the other one rotating in a weaker field, we have a current.
When we perform the analysis from the fixed reference frame, the sliding contacts are at rest, so the emf comes only from the axis. Why is this?

I found the summary I made a few years ago, see attachment. I have not seen this homopolar generator configuration anywhere else, so I am probably its inventor. The emf produced is significant, about half of what a Faraday disc the size of the magnets produces. The capacitor is just used to smooth the voltage.



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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #61 on: 2026-01-31, 10:47:08 »
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Quote from: Magluvin on 2026-01-30, 16:16:49
...
11yrs ago i did this experiment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s56ghlm0oJw
...

This experiment is interesting because, unlike Faraday's disc, the current passes through the diameter of the disc and not just through one radius.
The Lorentz force is therefore equal above and below the centre of the magnets. The Lorentz force does not exert any torque on the magnets. The magnet should therefore slide between the upper and lower contacts. This is certainly what would happen if the upper contact were identical to the lower contact: the magnet would slide between the two plates.
But here the friction at the bottom is much greater than at the top, where the wire touches lightly the magnet, so when the Lorentz force is the same above and below the centre, the magnet is held more at the bottom than at the top, which amounts to a torque that causes it to rotate.


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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #62 on: 2026-01-31, 15:16:33 »

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Quote from: F6FLT on 2026-01-31, 09:26:50
When we perform the analysis from the fixed reference frame, the sliding contacts are at rest, so the emf comes only from the axis. Why is this?
I don't see it coming from the axis.  I see it coming from the two red sections of the simplified inducing part of the ferrous shaft in the image below.  Those red lines are effectively within two Faraday discs that have their centres connected.  They deliver different values of opposing voltage to the brushes. 
« Last Edit: 2026-01-31, 15:23:30 by Smudge »
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #63 on: 2026-01-31, 17:59:09 »
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It's kind of funny how everyone pretends they are not thinking about the question on everyone's mind.

1)Can we find a setup whereby the spinning magnet-disk generates power from it's own spinning within a 3D space without any brushes or external circuit. This could be true because we know the magnetic field does not spin with the magnet and is stationary with respect to the space it occupies.

2)If #1 is true then the opposite could be true whereby the an object like a spinning magnet-disk could push off the stationary magnetic field producing a reactionless propulsion force.

This is not woo woo and some of the greatest minds have asked these questions. In fact Michael Faraday asked the same questions in his lectures. Faraday theorized that if gravity can act on an object then it seems logical that an object could act on gravity, equal and opposite. However one would have to actually read Faraday's lectures to know this. So this line of reason is quite natural despite what many arm chair critics might say.


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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #64 on: 2026-01-31, 18:43:42 »

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Quote from: F6FLT on 2026-01-31, 10:47:08
This experiment is interesting because, unlike Faraday's disc, the current passes through the diameter of the disc and not just through one radius.
The Lorentz force is therefore equal above and below the centre of the magnets. The Lorentz force does not exert any torque on the magnets. The magnet should therefore slide between the upper and lower contacts. This is certainly what would happen if the upper contact were identical to the lower contact: the magnet would slide between the two plates.
But here the friction at the bottom is much greater than at the top, where the wire touches lightly the magnet, so when the Lorentz force is the same above and below the centre, the magnet is held more at the bottom than at the top, which amounts to a torque that causes it to rotate.

what was getting me is the wire could come in for contact from any direction and the magnet still moved in the same direction. so i concluded that it wasnt the magnet reacting to field developed by the wire.  so now i want to mount the magnet, or a bunch of magnets around a rotor, and have permanent connections to the top and bottom of the magnet(s). will it turn? the rotor i have for this is 1/4in plexy with grphite treated dry bearings. very little resistance there. takes over 14 min to come to a stop from 1100rpm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSTfFIetYPY

tried the simple homopolar idea last night. the aa and aaa batteries i had were not good. will get some fresh ones and try again.  also found it challenging to to get it to hang straight up and down via magnet and tip of a drywall screw.  have a couple ideas on that.

mags
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #65 on: 2026-02-01, 02:32:14 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2026-01-31, 17:59:09
It's kind of funny how everyone pretends they are not thinking about the question on everyone's mind.

1)Can we find a setup whereby the spinning magnet-disk generates power from it's own spinning within a 3D space without any brushes or external circuit. This could be true because we know the magnetic field does not spin with the magnet and is stationary with respect to the space it occupies.

2)If #1 is true then the opposite could be true whereby the an object like a spinning magnet-disk could push off the stationary magnetic field producing a reactionless propulsion force.

This is not woo woo and some of the greatest minds have asked these questions. In fact Michael Faraday asked the same questions in his lectures. Faraday theorized that if gravity can act on an object then it seems logical that an object could act on gravity, equal and opposite. However one would have to actually read Faraday's lectures to know this. So this line of reason is quite natural despite what many arm chair critics might say.

@Allcanadian

Stop being coy. You're correct that it's not woo woo and the way you phrased this I'm quite sure you know exactly what I'm referring to.
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #66 on: 2026-02-01, 09:16:57 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2026-01-31, 15:16:33
I don't see it coming from the axis.  I see it coming from the two red sections of the simplified inducing part of the ferrous shaft in the image below.  Those red lines are effectively within two Faraday discs that have their centres connected.  They deliver different values of opposing voltage to the brushes.

That's the obvious explanation, but it's not the case. The radius of the axle of the experiment was 1 mm, while the diameter of the magnets was around 5 cm. When I used the same magnet arrangement but with a rotating Faraday disc with the same diameter as the magnets, as already mentioned, I had about twice the voltage as in the current configuration, whereas I should have measured a voltage 25 times higher. The measured voltage in the current configuration is too high to be compatible with the radius of the axle.

The second point I did not mention is that the axle must be ferromagnetic. Aluminium does not work, or rather, what we can say is that the voltage is then too low to be measured. I think the axle must channel the field lines, which then emerge more or less transversely, fhe further away from the tip, the less dense they are.
« Last Edit: 2026-02-01, 09:28:44 by F6FLT »


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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #67 on: 2026-02-01, 09:47:11 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2026-01-31, 17:59:09
...
1)Can we find a setup whereby the spinning magnet-disk generates power from it's own spinning within a 3D space without any brushes or external circuit. This could be true because we know the magnetic field does not spin with the magnet and is stationary with respect to the space it occupies.
...

When we say that ‘the magnetic field does not spin with the magnet’, we need to understand what we are talking about.
The magnetic field does rotate with its source. Proof: when an axially magnetised cylindrical magnet rotates around its diameter, it does induce a current in a coil. The field is rigidly linked to the magnet, at least in the quasi-stationary approximation.
But when the magnet rotates around its axis of magnetic symmetry, the magnetic field remains the same everywhere because any angular position of the magnet produces the same field. This situation is therefore indistinguishable from that of a magnet at rest, within the experimental limits that prevent the detection of the tiny effect of the magnet's rotation adding or subtracting rotational speed to the electron spins when the magnet is viewed as a current loop.
A field can never be taken as a reference frame, as there is nothing to define either an origin position or orthonormal axes, and by definition a field must itself be defined in a reference frame as it depends on it.
« Last Edit: 2026-02-01, 10:54:01 by F6FLT »


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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #68 on: 2026-02-01, 10:46:11 »
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Quote from: Magluvin on 2026-01-31, 18:43:42
...
will it turn?
...

I don't fully understand your configuration, but one thing is very simple: nothing will work if everything is covariant.


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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #69 on: 2026-02-01, 11:11:54 »

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Quote from: F6FLT on 2026-02-01, 09:16:57
That's the obvious explanation, but it's not the case. The radius of the axle of the experiment was 1 mm, while the diameter of the magnets was around 5 cm. When I used the same magnet arrangement but with a rotating Faraday disc with the same diameter as the magnets, as already mentioned, I had about twice the voltage as in the current configuration, whereas I should have measured a voltage 25 times higher. The measured voltage in the current configuration is too high to be compatible with the radius of the axle.

The second point I did not mention is that the axle must be ferromagnetic. Aluminium does not work, or rather, what we can say is that the voltage is then too low to be measured. I think the axle must channel the field lines, which then emerge more or less transversely, fhe further away from the tip, the less dense they are.
You did say the axle was ferromagnetic, and you are right that it channels the field lines.  I should also point out that the hole in the magnet seriously affects the field near the magnet, you could demonstrate the magnets repelling ferromagnetic material if you are interested in doing so.  The channeling effect will create much greater internal field at your contact points than that applied to your Faraday discs, so I don't accept your 25 times higher statement. 
   
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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #70 on: 2026-02-01, 13:44:20 »
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@Smudge

Your argument is plausible. But that would imply that with a ferromagnetic axle of the same diameter as the magnets, we would obtain a voltage greater than that of a copper Faraday disc placed directly in front of the magnets, by more than an order of magnitude.
I find that hard to believe.
« Last Edit: 2026-02-01, 13:48:14 by F6FLT »


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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #71 on: 2026-02-01, 16:19:37 »

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Quote from: F6FLT on 2026-02-01, 13:44:20
@Smudge

Your argument is plausible. But that would imply that with a ferromagnetic axle of the same diameter as the magnets, we would obtain a voltage greater than that of a copper Faraday disc placed directly in front of the magnets, by more than an order of magnitude.
I find that hard to believe.
I have just knocked up a FEMM simulation using its axisymmetric facility that is true 3D.  I think I have roughly got it to your dimensional aspect ratios, but I modelled a 2 inch diameter magnet whereas you used 1 inch.  What is perhaps surprising is the huge increase in the field along the axis within the 2mm shaft compared to the field without that shaft there.  My positions 1 and 2 roughly correspond to your brush positions, with 1 being 4mm in front of the 2 inch magnet and position 2 is 26mm.

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Re: Faradox revisited - NO brushes, V measurement co-rotating with 2-disk magnets and radial coils « Reply #72 on: 2026-02-01, 18:02:19 »
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@Smudge

Thank you for the simulation. This may be a reason to continue experimenting with ‘channelling’ field lines.

I also did two variations of this experiment (in addition to the magnet rotating with the axle, which, as expected, made no difference).
One was done by placing the sliding contact against the end of the axle instead of on top of it: no difference.
The other was done with more powerful neodymium magnets, but only 2.8 cm in diameter. The effect was significantly less pronounced.
Increasing the diameter seems to be a key factor in how it works. I suppose this allows the field lines to loop back further from the magnet, thus perhaps extending them further into the axle or making their exit from the axle more abrupt, but I don't see why this would amplify the effect.
The problem is that this is mechanics, and new tests to fully understand the problem would be tedious.
« Last Edit: 2026-02-01, 18:03:10 by F6FLT »


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