PopularFX
Home Help Search Login Register
Welcome,Guest. Please login or register.
2026-08-14, 21:54:34
News: If you have a suggestion or need for a new board title, please PM the Admins.
Please remember to keep topics and posts of the FE or casual nature. :)

Pages: [1] 2
Author Topic: Eccentric device  (Read 630 times)
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
I am building this device.

I Have decided to use a name for it that I used for another test bed, but changed it a little.

Simple Circumferential Rotary Entrained Wave Device, SCREWD.

This is a pic of the setup that is described in this pdf.
I have been playing with three different AIs with this and this is what Clauede.ai wrote up after we talk about it.

Feel free to share this anywhere you wish.
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
Chat gpt can push back on things for a long time,, nitpicking over everything,,
Anyway Chat came to make the same observation and I asked Chat to write it up using its own words and this is one of the presentations that was created, I have been promised a much better one tomorrow when I have more time.
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
Claude wrote this up before invoking the Law of Conservation.
   

Sr. Member
****

Posts: 436
shouldn't it work?  ;)
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
you know what is not so easy,,, trying  to get the AIs to be able to use a single protocol with device and not get derailed.  I thought that I would just pop in to Chatgpt with the list from Claude, nope, chat started injecting the lab frame and all sorts of other considerations, why you should ask,,  because it thought that was the way to go even tho I told it no other considerations, well when Chat got on board we discussed why this had to happen and what must I provide to ensure that it does not happen again,, well a long list of stuff came from Chat.
Hours spent trying to find the correct words, so Claude thought the Chat thing was good, but then broke that protocol any way,, or they would loose the geometry and say I'm sorry, or good for pushing back on that.  I will try again today to get some tight protocol in place with a matching description so that any AI or analyst will follow the simple requirements, do the geometry just on the shapes and bodies within the system, do the kinematics for only the system as it has been presented, do the force flows, no other considerations should be used  before these have been done. no other reference frames should be used and no changing of actual dimensions or points.

This is what Chat said to use
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4856
Analysing geometry first followed by forces is a good approach to solving these.
I am missing force diagrams and torque diagrams in these analyses, though.
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
I will work on that for you,,

In the meantime I have got this write up from Chatgtp,
I also will post these
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
Analysing geometry first followed by forces is a good approach to solving these.
I am missing force diagrams and torque diagrams in these analyses, though.

This just a little fun,  but change the file extension to html and it will run in your browser.
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
this is weird watching it, the blue arrow I think is following a 5/6 ratio, so many of these showing different things but wrong,
You may not notice that the blue inner gear is actually moving, place your mouse pointer on a spot that the blue ring passes, then you can see that it is orbiting.

If this actually works in the real world I am stuck asking why we are not already using this relationship, it is so simple,  why was I not taught this in school?

So the 3 AIs agree on the geometry, they agree on the kinematics, but the energy created big hurdles so the write up from Chatgtp did not go into energy.  Gemini was excited about the force multiplication to the pivot, that is no big deal because the pivot does not move, but it showed that the full path from the ring/sun mesh to pivot is a real path and that the frame is absorbing a large amount of force.
With the sim that is the .txt file that you change to html, (read the file first if you don't feel safe with doing that), It shows all the motions very well, the input from the cross slide assembly orbits the blue gear and provides some force to that orbit that is then transferred into the ring gear, there can be no argument there from any person or AI, That ring gear then must push back on the force that the sun is trying to apply, Newton.  Kinematics then tell the path and velocities and all that that the geometry creates by virtue of the hard bodies existing and in intimate contact, the system is a whole closed system.  That means that the ring gear must rotate and that the arm must follow,, and then you get the full force flow, input from sun to ring, ring through the pin that is fixed to the arm and that the ring must rotate around that pin, but for the ring to spin and supply a counter force to the sun mesh it must apply that into the pin, Newton, and then the arm has a reactionary force that then pushes on the pivot.  All of this passes the scrutiny of the 3 AIs WHEN they are held to the testing protocol as outlined by Chatgtp and me, and Claude, and Gemini,, my idea there feedback and push push push back.

The energy for the 1N at the sun/ring mesh is 0.0628J per cycle, again this part has no push back, it is when then you look at the ring to pin exchange, that energy is 0.628J, no typo that is 10x more out.  Now the thing is they all agree on the force from the ring gear, and they all agree that the ring must rotate and they all can identify all of the other forces, but that one creates problems.

   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
The stepper motors I chose showed the same current whether they were loaded or not, so I ordered some little brushed motors and I will have to redo the whole shebang.
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
for those that like to see things here is the test bed.  I was in the process of trying to get the steppers working nicely when I realized that they used all of what they were going to use.
stepper 28byj-48
board uln2003
atmega mini controller
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
this is the build I am now working on.
It will use 10 N20 motors mounted in the frame with 10 10mm arms with bearings to drive the Sun gear.
I am setting it up so that I can drive 6 TT motors at the ring gear and am using a gear for the pin connection to drive the TT's at a 3:1 step up.
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
These two pics show 2 solutions from a change of one variable.  Now what this means is that the system I am building could be set up so that it looses some of the mechanical gain to shift away from a singularity and into a more stable run condition.
The mechanical Engineers or the Physicists should understand that,, no arrows needed.
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
big design error on my part,, trying to "improve" things I got rid of an important relationship,,,,
I will change that up and see what happens.

I have the 10 N20's all installed and wired up to a power rail and they all spin along together, so that part is done.
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
changes/issues/life
Here is a pic of the mesh I am now running with, this is an offset of 180 degrees
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
These are some data points I have collected during some shake down runs with my modified system.
I am not claiming anything other than I find the results interesting, they do not prove anything.
The no load runs were with the system complete and all parts moving.
The holding hands runs were with only the Sun gear installed.
The loaded runs were with an open TT motor using the 3:1 gear but the system has an initial step down of 5/6 then the 3:1 step up, or 2.5:1

Holding Hands
2V @ 0.41A to 0.47A
6V @ 0.58A to 0.65A

No load system run costs
2V @ 0.44A to 0.54A
5V @ 0.53A to 0.65A
6V @ 0.61A to 0.71A

Loaded system
2V @ 0.46A to 0.56A
6V @ 0.75A to 0.91A

Direct out
2V @ 0.58A to 0.68A
5V @ 0.59A to 0.72A
6V @ 0.59A to 0.72A

What I find interesting is that the 2V geared up RPM delivered to the TT motor is about the same RPM as the 5V direct out.
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
so I did a few runs loaded with a resistor across the motor and a little volt meter and diode bridge reading the voltage.  I have 2 100 ohm resistors in parallel for 50 ohms resistance.

using the 3:1 aka 2.5:1 gear
Input 3.5V @ 0.84A to 0.94A
output across 2 100 ohm resistors in parallel
0.52V to 0.63V

using the direct drive
input 7.5V @ 0.72A to 0.93A
output across 2 100 ohm resistors in parallel
0.54V to 0.84V

I turned up the input voltage to get close output voltages, the same motor with the electronics on it was used on both test points.
   
Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2516
shouldn't it work?  ;)

It won’t work. The behaviour of lossless mechanical systems can be described by a Lagrangian; therefore, regardless of the complexity of the mechanical system – and this one is clever but tricky – since the system is closed and evolves over a single cycle between identical initial and final states, it is invariant under time translation, and so energy is conserved.
Archimedes’ force is equal in magnitude to the weight of the displaced fluid and is supposed to be vertical, but not in the system you describe, where centrifugal acceleration must be taken into account. The ‘weight’ of the displaced water, and therefore Archimedes’ buoyancy, is no longer vertical but always directed towards the surface.


---------------------------
"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
It won’t work. The behaviour of lossless mechanical systems can be described by a Lagrangian; therefore, regardless of the complexity of the mechanical system – and this one is clever but tricky – since the system is closed and evolves over a single cycle between identical initial and final states, it is invariant under time translation, and so energy is conserved.
Archimedes’ force is equal in magnitude to the weight of the displaced fluid and is supposed to be vertical, but not in the system you describe, where centrifugal acceleration must be taken into account. The ‘weight’ of the displaced water, and therefore Archimedes’ buoyancy, is no longer vertical but always directed towards the surface.

Wrong thread??
   
Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2516
Wrong thread??

What do you mean?


---------------------------
"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
The freecad drawing is my compenstor device, it sits in the middle of the sun gear and pivots on the shaft, in the test bed I only used 2 gears and 4 bearings, the bearings are located under the gear locations and run against a shoulder on the inside of the sun gear.  This was in an attempt to figure out why the apparent gain was there and what the actual force paths and flows are.

The one part of the runs I did with this setup that is most interesting is where the draw drops when I use the ring and its 3 gears,, adding more frictional stuff lowered the draw, that is interesting.
   
Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3126
The freecad drawing is my compenstor device, it sits in the middle of the sun gear and pivots on the shaft, in the test bed I only used 2 gears and 4 bearings, the bearings are located under the gear locations and run against a shoulder on the inside of the sun gear.  This was in an attempt to figure out why the apparent gain was there and what the actual force paths and flows are.

The one part of the runs I did with this setup that is most interesting is where the draw drops when I use the ring and its 3 gears,, adding more frictional stuff lowered the draw, that is interesting.

Hey webby1

I also use freecad, I suspect your using the gears workbench. What other workbenches do you recommend.?. I have a project similar to this I want to build.

That's an impressive build, nice job.


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
I use part and part design all the time,, Sketcher for more than just creating a new shape, I use it as a chalk board kind of thing.
I am using an older version because I find it easier for what I do, version 0.21.1
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 36
this is my mechanical build as it is evolving.
I needed to get it to lock every time without any other parts, and this one does just that.
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4856
Very nice build but does it manifest any anomalous behavior ?
   
Pages: [1] 2
« previous next »


 

Home Help Search Login Register
Theme © PopularFX | Based on PFX Ideas! | Scripts from iScript4u 2026-08-14, 21:54:34