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Author Topic: ThaneCHeins Regenerative Acceleration  (Read 22336 times)
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Thane has uploaded many videos to Youtube, and it seems to me that his simple experiments may contain the key to the workings of many other devices. In this I include SM's TPU, Don Smith's devices, possibly Dave Lawton's pulsed electrolyser (along with Meyer and Puharich) and probably many more apparently OU /RE devices I've not listed here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps5BqEiFK74&feature=related

Incidentally, I know this post is not in the correct place, it should be directly under the Electrical/Electronic device heading and not in the SM sub topic, but I could not find how to post directly under Electrical/Electronic Devices.
   
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After researching this stuff for a good while now, it would seem that resonance is indeed the key to all these inductance/capacitance circuits and devices, and that achieving a resonate state produces very desirable effects. It would seem Tesla was well aware of the importance of resonance.

It occurred to me that what Thane is achieving with very basic equipment may well relate somewhat to aerial theory. That is, the wavelength of the frequency of his generated pulses is directly related to the length of the wire on his coils. Hence, at specific wavelengths/wire lengths the electrostatic force between coil windings cancels out the magnetic force.  When this happens, the BEMF is cancelled out, Lenz’s Law no longer hinders and current can flow unimpeded.

If this is indeed the case, then I believe it likely that Thane has effectively a moving part SM TPU.

Likewise if we understand how Thanes devices work and relate this knowledge to the likes of SM’s TPU, then not only do we finally have a logical explanation to how the TPU works, but also then have the basic knowledge to build a working model.

You will note that before Thane sees any regenerative effect, his motor has to achieve a certain RPM (frequency). Below this RPM his secondary circuits act to load the prime mover, and as expected draws more current from the supply, while dissipating more power. However, above a certain RPM, the BEMF is cancelled out and current flows unimpeded in the secondary.

Hence, I suspect that SM’s TPU, is a solid state version of Thanes set up.  If so, the TPU’s  secondary coil wire length would need to be matched to the wavelength of the primary coil frequency.  It is possible under these conditions, at exactly the correct frequency, by eliminating BEMF, that a very small signal could allow for a much larger current flow.

Also, if Meyer was cancelling the BEMF in his WFC, then this would allow much larger current flow than would otherwise be predicted while also explaining the much greater amounts of gases evolved than expected.

I should add that this is just my take on things, however it all seems to fit quite nicely with what we see happening in so-called resonant circuits and devices.



   
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This is a more recent Thane video, which more clearly demonstrates the phenomenom:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_UXcNMBGTA&feature=channel

If there does indeed come a point at a certain frequency whereby the electrostatic force overcomes the magnetic force, then what Thane believes to be occuring not only looks quite valid, but would also appear logical.  As stated above - and if true - this phenomenom would also go a long way to explaining the properties of numerous other, to date, mysterious devices. 
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Farrah Day, I have watched several of Thane's videos.

I think this says a great deal.

Thane needs to perform some proper measurements, and apparently to date, he has not done so. RPM is not a reliable indicator of energy gained.

I would like to know more about his bi-toroid setup, as this would be interesting to PSpice. There seems to be little information available however.

Regards,
.99
   
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Hi P99

The bi-toroid set up supposedly provides a different path back for the BEMF in the secondary... at least that's my take on it.  Of course nothing can be taken for granted, but what I like about Thane's set-ups are that you can see that something unusual is happening even without the test and measuring instruments displays - which he always shows as well.

I thought that his testing seemed quite comprehensive - indeed many times better than most of what you see on youtube... what is it he is not showing that you would like to see?  I've got some Neos on order as I intend to replicate a Thane experiment, so perhaps I'll soon be able to fill in any gaps.

I know that a generator will feel drag as soon as a load is applied to the secondary, but Thanes videos (though I agree not totally conclusive) do tend to get you thinking.  When switched in and loaded, his high current secondary coils produce the expected drag, with more current being drawn from the power supply to compensate and maintain the same RPM of the primary mover, but then when he also switches in the high voltage coils, not only does the prime mover RPM accelerate up, but the source current goes down. 

Whatever the explanation, this seemingly goes against everything I was taught...

What I also like about Thane is that he appears quite professional in detailing and recording his observations and measurements - unlike most youtube videos that are in fact next to meaningless.  I just think that he's gone to one heck of a lot of trouble if he's pulling a job on us.

I'm gonna give the guy the benefit of the doubt for now! 
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Indeed FD, I do not believe Thane is pulling a job on us. The vast majority of folks making claims are doing so more out of ignorance than anything else. I think you have seen plenty of evidence of this at OU?

Thane's case is no different. He is clearly making some errors in his assumptions about what is happening with his coils. Some things are correct, and some not. To boot, Thane seems to have changed his tune in terms of what causes the acceleration. First it was a flow of flux through the rotor shaft into the prime mover motor aiding rotation, and now it has something to do with the HV coil storing energy in it's self-capacitance (true to a certain extent, but that energy is tiny) which is somehow discharged in such a fashion to provide motive force on the rotor after TDC.

There is something interesting going on there, but is it worth investigating in terms of finding OU? I don't know, but what I DO know is that Thane has been playing with this concept for well over a year and he is still showing the same experiment and not showing any real gains in energy. The bottom line is he is putting in over 200W and getting out only 2 or 3W. He also needs to run that motor at full power and see if the effect is still there. He has a lot of work to do, but seems reluctant to take the experiment to the much needed next step.

Maybe you can?

.99
   
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As per usual a very logical post P99.

To be honest I never really do anymore than consider the thoughts and explanations of these inventors and experimenters, as in most cases I doubt that anything they provide by way of explanation is anything other than conjecture.  As you rightly say - and as highlighted by Gadgetboy's Joule Thief - claims of OU often come from lack of education and/or sheer ignorance... and woe betide anyone that tries to level the playing field with a little science!

The problem is that sometimes it is the inventor's personal 'take' on the science that so readily alienates them from so many of us.  Moreso those of us educated enough to immediately see flaws in the inventor's science or explanations. Meyer is a good example of this, because whether or not he did ever run a vehicle via an on-demand Water Fuel Cell is to me completely undermined by his unconvincing video lectures and the utter gibberish of his technical briefs.

All this is to say that, even if completely dismissing the inventor's explanation of the workings of any given device, it might well pay not to instantly dismiss the device on this basis alone. The inventors explanation becomes irrelevant if it is found that irrespective of the percieved science the device actually works as stated.

Blimey, I'd forgotten what it was like to have intelligent conversation without every other post being interupted by 'Innovation Station's' nonsense! :)
   
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Blimey, I'd forgotten what it was like to have intelligent conversation without every other post being interupted by 'Innovation Station's' nonsense! :)

Amen
   
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This Jonny Davro guy is doing some very simple, easy to replicate experiments and getting some very interesting results. I'd recommend anyone interested in Radiant Energy/OU to take a look at his videos.

He has some interesting Stiffler SEC replications on the go along with some JT replications, all very easy to construct with easy to acquire components. 

This video link I believe seems to corroborate what Thane was seeing, hence why I've put it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlCoXyTRur0&feature=channel

You can access all his videos from the above youtube link. Fascinating stuff!!

   

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Now that the Thainhisteria has wilted a bit I would like to offer my explanation of the so-called 'regeneration'.
In my past I performed mil-spec testing on emergency power plants for most military branches. These tests covered every performace curve you can think of.
One was the 'short circuit test'. 2 megawatt 480v 3 phase generator full resistive load.....
Short all three phases and neutral together.
At best, there was one result- the winding fields would collapse and the driving engine would fail on 'overspeed' due to the sudden loss of generator drag.

Shorting his coil removes motor load. It does not add energy.
This is a common mistake by all levels of expertise.


---------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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Indeed WaveWatcher.  Shorting out a generator coil or open-circuiting it both more or less cause a no-load condition on the system.  By the same token, chances are if you add the correct matched load resistor to a well-coupled pulse or Bedini motor output stage, the poor pulse motor will grind to a halt in a few revolutions.  Most pulse motors are feeble weak things that really do nothing.  The only thing that they do is spin with no useful output.  Plotting unloaded RPMs vs. supply voltage is almost useless data.  Sorry for making flowers wilt!
   

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tExB=qr
The shorted coil was a HV coil on a E-core half that has a low voltage, high current coil with the HV wrapped ouside this HC coil and a couple of magnets an this is pulsed (or whatever).  At certain parameters, the shorted high current coil acts like an electric spring.

See attached.  Shorted high current coil is in the center with HV wrapped around the ouside of the core.  The person that gave me this picture claimed to replicate the effect that Thane spoke of and said that is is frequency specific.
   

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Grumpy,

Yes, it can be frequency specific and often is, even on a diesel driven generator. As far as magnets and pulses go, the pulses may put energy into the rotation or additional drag upon it. The magnets would net to zero. If that wasn't true then he should have dropped the motor part and continued with the magnets. I'm speaking of his efforts to prove extra energy by shorting his coils.

I stayed pretty silent during Thane's efforts. There was a point where I thought he found a way to cause a delayed magnetic connection to create gain. I applauded him for that and hoped he would continue to learn and share the workings. For some reason he shot off on another direction so I remained silent. He puts more into his experimenting than I can so I had no right to provide anything negative.

MH,

Very much so. That step of applying real load never seems to happen. I still get interested when there is an increase in speed, even without load with no increase of input. While motor power is only measured during slip (load) and steady-state, I can vouch for the fact that this standard of measurement is only valid for that situation.

We've already had the argument about work being done ;) As far as I'm concerned, motors turning with no load are using energy. Since they are also moving it is still work being done, unless you can remove all friction.

The one weird thing I learned performing those tests had to do with generator shaft current. This doesn't happen often anymore. Modern designs prevent it.

We had to measure shaft current between the rotating shaft & bearing. I remember one 400 or 500kW machine had 6.3VDC measured from the center of the shaft to the cast bearing support. I don't remember exact details but when the resistance was thrown into the calculation the current came to more than the generator capacity.

Yet, this had no effect upon performance of the generator - I imagine it would have if I hadn't failed it for excessive shaft current  ;D The bearings would have spalled from the heat and caused destruction. During training we were told such a problem has caused warped generator shafts from heat related to the high currents.
Can you imagine how many amps are needed to heat a 3" dia. cold-rolled steel shaft to the point of warping?

What I couldn't figure was how closed circuit radial magnetic fields could cause directional current flow in the center of rotation. Since then I think I've figured it. Now we have folks using a nail to light lamps with that nail as the core of a large bucking winding.

Basically - a cylinder style homopolar generator  ;)

I must still applaud Thane for his efforts. I like my longterm marriage too much to dive that deep.


---------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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Well constructed and very informative - great post WW.  :)

Farrah
   
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@farrah day

for the first video  in you tube  the reason for ascelerating whe hv coil is whit load and is increasing the speed  i say that when perman magnet is crosing the coil of hv then hv  is produced back emf and tha back emf is produced the same fild like magnet perm and the fild from perman magnet is now compres  back whit the fildof the backemf  AND REASON IS THIS . LOST FILD  from permamanet is back in to the perma .magnet beacouse the back emf give the same magnet pole like permamagne and seams the like there is comprese fild and thene there in teh courent coil nowhave  more elktromagnet fild LINES and more magnet fildfrom  perma magnet.and that is reason  forligh bulb in the courent coil  and ascelerating ,the fild from magnet  and fild from elktromagnet is concentrate in his coils .and all lost fild  from permamagnet now is press in the coils,normaly if you have more magnet lines then you whill have   more out . this is  not meaning that you whill have more energy in he out  ,only WHIT THIS YOU HAVE PICK UP LOST MAGNET LINES   and have energy from lost fild like a  lets say 90%  problem is beaouse and strange thing for ascelerating is when whill see  beacouse the coils there is  no toroid  if some how is put torid then this EFFECKT  WHILL NOT HAPEND BEACOUSE THE TOROID  has able to not have more % of lost magnet lines. LIKE NOTHING NEW THERE ...
   
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I've come up with an explanation for speed up under load effect. 

The purpose of having a large number of winding coil and low resistance loading is to increase Lenz effect.  The voltage induced in the coil is proportional to the number of turns.  As we increase the number of turns, resistance also increase.  Drag force is proportional to number of turns squared.  For the same current flowing through the coil, more turns would cause drag exponentially higher. 

So the high voltage coil is design to brake the system.  What causing speed up comes from the input side.  When input current is injected to accelerate the wheel, it subject to BEMF from the moving magnet.  This is why the higher the speed, the less current from input.  When the high voltage coil is shorted, the magnet get a momentarily brake, this reduced the BEMF from moving magnet causing a current surge from the input.  The current surge evaluate from (V(supply) - V(BEMF))/ R(coil) .  The surge current cause high torque and speed up the system.  Again, torque is proportional to current squared. 

To test this hypothesis, free rotation can be used to check for speed up. 

   
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Hi Gibbs and all, I think I agree with you at least in part, I've debated and tried to think about this myself.
I'm not sure I fully understand your post. I need to think about it.  :-[ I'm a slow thinker.

Here in this post I "correct" myself and include the main post I aimed to correct as a quote. I do realize I used
bad terms and spelled Lenz wrong.  :-[ I should have used emf as the abbreviation rather than EMF in capitols.
Anyway I think it's interesting, but's that's all, it's not what he is claiming in my opinion.

http://www.energeticforum.com/160363-post36.html

And here is the thread.  http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/9436-lenss-law-what.html

I think trying to beat Lenz's Law is like trying to catch the shadow caused by a flashlight in the light-beam
of the same flashlight. As soon as you try, it's gone.

And I think the Bi-Toroid while it may be a different configuration has the same effect or similar.

Oh and if anyone see's anything they should correct me on in the post there or any post in the thread after
that one please do, I'm here to learn. And discuss/debate. I think I can accept I'm wrong when shown.  O0

Cheers

P.S. I answered or tried to answer a lot of questions in that thread that I was not qualified to answer,
but since I thought I was at least making some sense I should continue. I hope I saved some people
some money or whatever. Spending lots of money for nix plays into the hands of consumerism.

I know Milehigh likes a song to make a point and so do I think this song applies here.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62kQbLdAlDg

..

..
   
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Hi Farmhand,

If you think your opinion worth something, feel free to post it.  I'm not a fan of formality either.   :)

I think the speed up effect cause by both the high voltage coil wire inductance and input current surge.  I can't see a speed up with just one of them.  So I think what you're saying is part of the explanation.

It may or may not be OU.  What interesting is we can produce more or less energy by discharge rate.  I think Lenz is what needed for OU.  I know, it's crazy. lol

   

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Rotor magnet(rm) approaches open stator coil(sc);

1. rm is in attraction with all of the sc cores so there is cogging due to the presence of the sc's. There is no repulsion between the rm and sc.
2. The net drag on the rotor is due to the heat loss in the core of the sc.
3. The heat loss is due to the constant alignment/relaxation of the magnetic domains in the sc core.

rm approaches shorted sc;

1. rm is in attraction with the approaching sc core.
2. As the rm approaches the shorted sc a current is induced into the sc.
3. As the current is induced into the sc this current creates a magnetic field within the sc core.
4. That magnetic field causes the magnetic domains of the core to realign from the approaching rm to the induced magnetic field of the sc.
5. When magnetic domains are aligned to a local magnetic field they are not free to align with another magnetic field.
6. The ability of a magnetic domain to align with a nearby magnetic field is the mechanism of magnetic attraction. If that ability is prevented, there is no magnetic attraction. - Magnetic attraction is masked.


rm is aligned with the sc core;

1. The magnetic fields of the rm and sc core are at their peak and in opposition. There is limited attraction between the rm and sc core, if any.

rm moving past the sc core;

1. the induced sc current reverses and the sc core magnetic domains follow this reversing magnetic field created by the induced current. Attraction remains masked.
2. Attraction remains masked until enough magnetic domains are freed from the influence of the coil's magnetic field to allow interaction with other magnetic fields.

----

So, if he removed those massive coils, and their cores, the motor would run easier without having to short the coils because the heat losses in the sc cores is removed.
« Last Edit: 2012-05-05, 14:14:04 by WaveWatcher »


---------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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Rotor magnet(rm) approaches open stator coil(sc);

1. rm is in attraction with all of the sc cores so there is cogging due to the presence of the sc's. There is no repulsion between the rm and sc.
2. The net drag on the rotor is due to the heat loss in the core of the sc.
3. The heat loss is due to the constant alignment/relaxation of the magnetic domains in the sc core.

rm approaches shorted sc;

1. rm is in attraction with the approaching sc core.
2. As the rm approaches the shorted sc a current is induced into the sc.
3. As the current is induced into the sc this current creates a magnetic field within the sc core.
4. That magnetic field causes the magnetic domains of the core to align with the induced magnetic field.
5. When magnetic domains are aligned to a local magnetic field they are not free to align with another magnetic field.
6. The ability of a magnetic domain to align with a nearby magnetic field is the mechanism of magnetic attraction. If that ability is prevented, there is no magnetic attraction. - Magnetic attraction is masked.


rm is aligned with the sc core;

1. The magnetic fields of the rm and sc core are at their peak and in opposition. There is limited attraction between the rm and sc core, if any.

rm moving past the sc core;

1. the induced sc current reverses and the sc core magnetic domains follow this reversing magnetic field created by the induced current. Attraction remains masked.
2. Attraction remains masked until enough magnetic domains are freed from the influence of the coil's magnetic field to allow interaction with other magnetic fields.

----

So, if he removed those massive coils, and their cores, the motor would run well without having to short the coils.

Thanks WaveW for the analysis,

If we replace the core with an air core, then wouldn't it be easier to see?  Before I think core is the cause, but its energy is too little to account for this effect.

   

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Thanks WaveW for the analysis,

If we replace the core with an air core, then wouldn't it be easier to see?  Before I think core is the cause, but its energy is too little to account for this effect.



Core energy too little to account for what effect? The increase in speed is due to the removal of drag imposed by heat losses in the cores. I would like to see the test that shows the coils providing more rotational energy. Unfortunately, he always skirted around such a test.
RPM is only one part of the equation determining the rotational energy.


---------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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Core energy too little to account for what effect? The increase in speed is due to the removal of drag imposed by heat losses in the cores. I would like to see the test that shows the coils providing more rotational energy. Unfortunately, he always skirted around such a test.
RPM is only one part of the equation determining the rotational energy.


Do you mean hysteresis or eddy losses?  I think eddy present even if the the coil is open, but lamination takes care of that.  Hysteresis would be more with shorted high turns coil? 

   

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Do you mean hysteresis or eddy losses?  I think eddy present even if the the coil is open, but lamination takes care of that.  Hysteresis would be more with shorted high turns coil?  



Interesting details.

The heat losses during an open coil would be due to both, I believe.
If so when shorted, both heat loss causes are minimized in the core. Both losses would still exist in the coil. Hysteresis would be at the mercy of changes in the core.
Both require motion or change in action. Once the change has happened(domain aligns with induced coil field), there is no attraction to outside fields (for each magnetic domain).

Hysteresis losses require alignment/relaxation of magnetic domains. So, hysteresis loss ends when the core is no longer attracted to the rotor magnet.

Eddy current losses will occur any time a conductor has relative motion to a magnetic field or there is relative change in density of that magnetic field or conductor. So, I think Eddy is there shorted or not.




---------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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Interesting details.

The heat losses during an open coil would be due to both, I believe.
If so when shorted, both heat loss causes are minimized in the core. Both losses would still exist in the coil. Hysteresis would be at the mercy of changes in the core.
Both require motion or change in action. Once the change has happened(domain aligns with induced coil field), there is no attraction to outside fields (for each magnetic domain).

Hysteresis losses require alignment/relaxation of magnetic domains. So, hysteresis loss ends when the core is no longer attracted to the rotor magnet.

Eddy current losses will occur any time a conductor has relative motion to a magnetic field or there is relative change in density of that magnetic field or conductor. So, I think Eddy is there shorted or not.




Here's a situation we need to consider.  The gain on this effect is speed up and output from the coil.  Is the heat losses account for both?

hysteresis + eddy = coil output + speed up

I think the losses is what speed it up, but coil output is something much larger, possibly free.





   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
For those interested, attached is a bunch of "stuff" Thane offered to send me a couple or three years ago, which according to him was going to convince me his work is supported and worth looking into.

After glancing at it all briefly, I saw nothing convincing.
   
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