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OverUnity Research > Benches > ION (Moderator: ion) > Mr. Bessler meets WM2D
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Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « on: 2017-03-12, 17:04:47 »
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Johann Bessler meets Working Model 2D (WM2D)

In the following few  posts I will describe some experiments using "WorkingModel 2D" (aka WM2D), a fairly easy to use 2 dimensional mechanical modelling program in application to the Bessler Wheel and other unbalanced wheel types.

I will use the motor built into the program spinning at 10 or 20 RPM and use the torque meauring function to determine if there can be a net gain in the plot of torque vs time.

As a preliminary, first I show a wheel with four each of one pound weights at a distance of one foot from the axle. This wheel was carefully constructed to be balanced.

As expected the torque curve shows a flat line as the motor does not need to act once the weights are in motion, therefore we see no +/- torque in the graph.

Next one of the weights is unbalanced by 0.1 pound and the resultant sinusoidal wave is seen as the motor lifts the extra weight up the hill (6:00 to 12:00) and then has to restrain the kinetic energy of the weight as it falls from 12:00 to 6:00 in order to maintain the constant speed setpoint.

In this manner we can use the torque measurement property of the graphing function to notice when we have kinetic energy flowing into or out of the system. For clockwise rotation, plot values below the zero line, negative, is when the motor is expending energy to lift a weight or otherwise overcome a frictional load. Plot lines above the zero line occur when the motor adding energy in attempting to restrain the added kinetic energy when the weight is falling in order to keep the speed at the set value.

For counterclockwise rotation the y axis is then inverted.

I think using the motor in this way gives us an novel transducer to determine the dynamics of the system.
.
In later posts I will hope to show some arrangements of swinging weights and their graphs.

Graphs and short .avi videos usually under 1 Mbyte  will also be posted.

First post is the balanced wheel, and as expected a flat torque curve.

« Last Edit: 2017-03-12, 19:26:43 by ION »


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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #1 on: 2017-03-12, 17:08:46 »
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Next we have the graph and video of one of the weights unbalanced by 0.1 pound.

Notice we now have a nice sine wave as the motor is expending torque in both lifting the extra weight (negative value on the graph),  and restraining the weight (positive values on the graph) when it falls in order to keep the speed constant. In other words the energy is accumulated as energy input from the motor from 6:00 to 12:00 then the stored energy is released past 12:00 to act as a torque input to the motor, which the motor must then counteract to keep the speed at the preset value.

So for clockwise rotation, negative torque means the motor is adding torque to lift the body, positive torque means the motor is adding torque to counteract the input torque of the falling body
« Last Edit: 2017-03-12, 20:10:45 by ION »


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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #2 on: 2017-03-12, 18:25:43 »
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Now we allow the arms to pivot freely but at a point they are restrained in their motion by stops on the inner hub, just when the free falling weight has accelerated to its maximum, this acting as a torque arm at the maximum distance.

Allowing the weights to free fall allows a maximum velocity to be achieved due to the acceleration of gravity. When the arm hits the stop, all of that kinetic energy is transferred to the hub, as if it were a torque arm acting on the hub.

Notice also the weights are conveniently retracted at the near top of the cycle from 9:00 to 12:00. If you step back and watch the rotation, you can notice that the weights are always further out on one side than the other.

Notice that the torque required to maintain speed is all on one side of the zero line...the negative torque, except for the occasional large positive spikes.

I had to change graphing values and greatly increase the range.

Edit:My original experiments were all run counterclockwise. In reversing the direction of the rotation, the torque graph also changes such that below the zero line, the motor is adding energy to lift a weight, and also adding energy energy above the zero line to restrain the torque acting into the motor.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #3 on: 2017-03-12, 22:26:23 »
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Chet asked me to give the next one a try. He and Graham are working on this one.

From the chart, the energy pulses seem balanced both working for and against rotation of the wheel.

Used were 0.1 kG weights, one for balance one for the pendulum.

Sorry for the bad videos, still trying to figure out the export part of the program.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #4 on: 2017-03-13, 03:08:04 »
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And here is version two that Chet and Graham are working on. There are some powerful impulses, but also some lossy charging torque that helps creates them.

The flying weight and the fixed counterbalance are both 1kg.

Included is an expanded scale of the heartbeat.

Enjoy


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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #5 on: 2017-03-13, 11:45:52 »

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Buy me a beer
ION

The avi will not open as it has been coded!! well that's what it is telling me and I have the latest player.

Regards

Mike 8)


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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #6 on: 2017-03-13, 12:31:49 »

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Dear ION.

I really like the " clean " look of the simulation of my idea.

Now..... I know it's a a 2D program but could the drawing in the attached link be simulated?

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3426.msg60140#msg60140

Cheers Graham.


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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #7 on: 2017-03-13, 16:02:18 »
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Quote from: Grumage on 2017-03-13, 12:31:49
Dear ION.

I really like the " clean " look of the simulation of my idea.

Now..... I know it's a a 2D program but could the drawing in the attached link be simulated?

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3426.msg60140#msg60140

Cheers Graham.

Dear Graham

It should be possible to test most of your ideas using WM2D.

 I cannot stress enough that the ability to identify  and correlate the graphs to exactly what is happening on the wheel per cycle is of paramount importance in understanding why most of these ideas do not work. It has the same value as using an oscilloscope to probe an electrical circuit.

If you examine the "heartbeat graph (CnGv2.jpg)carefully there are some very important observations to be made, but no one has commented on this factor. It is very simple and a reason why devices that fling a weight cannot work.

It's all there in the graph. When time permits, I will mark up the graph to show the reason

Regarding your latest idea, I may be able to simulate something very close, but I already know it will work as you are putting the energy in at the counterweight end. This is much like a "powerball" or "lasso".

Mike, I am sorry you cannot open the files. I test each one with VLCplayer, my gold standard for video playing. Quite old but always works where windblows media player rarely can decode a simple .avi file.
I don't know what you are using to view these .avi's. Has anyone else had difficulty with them?

Regards, ION


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #8 on: 2017-03-13, 17:07:05 »
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Lets go back to basics since my earlier attempts may have been unclear.

We have a I pound weight fixed to the edge of a 12 inch diameter wheel.

The wheel start point is at the lowest point, 6:00.

The torque required to maintain constant speed of the motor is presented in a graph.

The torque required to lift the weight is supplied by the motor in the negative portion of the sine wave.

The torque required to restrain the weight as gravity acts upon it is the torque supplied by the motor in the positive half of the sine wave.

The motor tries to maintain a constant speed of 20 degrees per second, force that tries to push or pull on the wheel shows up in the graph.

When we add the torque from the bottom to the torque from the top we get a zero, or no gain, all of the energy in lifting the weight is given back to the wheel as the gravity acting on the weight attempts to push the wheel down. The motor now supplies a restraining force to maintain constant speed.

The motor is an elegant transducer to determine what is happening on each complete cycle of the wheel.

We can make this transducer very sensitive to disturbances acting on the wheel.

As the motor tries to maintain constant speed it acts as a servo mechanism that must record all external disturbance to the wheel by changing its energy input in order to maintain it's speed setpoint.

Understand this and you have a powerful analysis tool for overbalance wheel research and development.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #9 on: 2017-03-13, 17:40:32 »
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It's turtles all the way down
And here is the graph with the one pound weight removed.

No disturbance as no external force acting on the motor.


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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #10 on: 2017-03-13, 18:50:51 »
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Here is a description over one cycle of the CnGver2 device  ( Grahams idea ).

This was done in SI units vs English unfortunately so some aspects change.

Does anyone doubt this is a powerful evaluation method?


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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #11 on: 2017-03-13, 19:09:33 »

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Believing in something false doesn't make it true.
That is some great software and a very ingenious way of analyzing the movement and energy of a gravity wheel.  I have used an oscilloscope for over 50 years to analyze electronic circuits so I can easily see the parallels with what you are doing.

Thanks for sharing what you are learning from your tests.

Carroll


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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #12 on: 2017-03-13, 19:58:28 »
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Hi Citfta

If you are an old timer like me, and been around this stuff long enough you get to appreciate precise measurement and the realtime or post analysis of the data acquired.

Once you get up to speed with  WM2D you can try out many ideas in very short order.

With WM2D you can also export the raw data for further analysis, like any reasonably good program should.

I'm sure there are much better programs, including 3D versions, but I'm new to mechanical modelling in software so I thought this is a good start both for me and forum members.

Using the motor torque data is the rough equivalent of recording the power into a bidirectional servomotor or motor with feedback that is attempting to maintain the rate of rotation at a constant speed. 

I'm glad that you "get it", and appreciate the comments.

Kind Regards
ION


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #13 on: 2017-03-13, 21:09:45 »

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting_oscillation

Energy balance

In order to get an estimate of the critical speed, we use the fact that the condition for which this kinematic solution is valid corresponds to the case where there is no net energy exchange with the surroundings, so by considering the kinetic and potential energy of the system, we should be able to derive the critical speed.

"The angular deflection also follows a simple harmonic motion, which lags behind the side to side motion by a quarter of a cycle. In many systems which are characterised by harmonic motion involving two different states (in this case the axle yaw deflection and the lateral displacement), the quarter cycle lag between the two motions endows the system with the ability to extract energy from the forward motion. This effect is observed in "flutter" of aircraft wings and "shimmy" of road vehicles, as well as hunting of railway vehicles. The kinematic solution derived above describes the motion at the critical speed."
« Last Edit: 2017-03-13, 22:34:45 by evolvingape »


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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #14 on: 2017-03-13, 21:16:20 »
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ION
Not that it really matters, But you have the idea's [original presenters] flipped, what I call the lollypop [L shaped hinged "pulser"]
that is an idea I have been playing with for My S.Jack Abeling wheel, it is claimed that the wheel lets a weight fly out as it rotates
this was an early idea as to how to do that as well as impart a pulse.

the upside down pendulum between 11:00 and 1:00 is something Graham had me put together while I was playing with the wheel

I cannot tell you how grateful I am for your modeling ,as the Abeling Wheel progresses it will be interesting to see if you can model it.

I will post again some images for you to see for reference when I have time ,and then just Delete them after you understand my direction.
I really like this posting in your bench and then removal after so as to not clutter things up.

this is one of the benefits of Peter's forum.... available to all members here.

very nice indeed

with gratitude
Chet
   
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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #15 on: 2017-03-14, 00:48:11 »
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Chet and Graham

I wasn't sure who came up with what, so sorry if I got it mixed up.

 There are many hundreds(maybe thousands,I stopped counting) of clever ideas on the Bessler forums that I have seen over the past many years, and many of them start with similar such designs.

If you've got a few hundred hours to burn, I recommend a good read of those forums.

Meanwhile I'm willing to simulate and test where possible.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now has anybody been able to figure out why wheels that let the weight "fly out" , as in the lollipop version cannot work in their most basic embodiment?

The clue is in plain sight on the last graph I presented of that version. (the annotated graph)

I'm not saying give up on it, just get a feel for what is happening and you will understand the influence of the "flying out weight" on the wheel.

Regards
ION

P.S. Some of the  professional guys at Bessler forum have been using WM2D for a long time and think it is a good choice for most 2D sims. Another is "Interactive Physics", which is based on WM2D.


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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #16 on: 2017-03-14, 01:06:06 »

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The flying out actually slows down the wheel because of an effect called conservation of angular momentum.  It is the principle that allows a figure skater to spin very fast by pulling their arms in tight and then stopping quickly by suddenly putting their arms straight out.  You can actually test this yourself if you can find a chair like a piano stool or something similar that spins very easily.  While you are sitting in the chair with your legs straight out have someone get you spinning.  Then pull your legs back toward the chair and you will feel your spin speed up.  It is a strange feeling when you first do it.  Then stick your legs back out and you will slow down.  Pull them back in and you will speed up again.  If you start out spinning fast enough and the chair has good bearings you can actually do this several times before the chair and you stop spinning.

Carroll


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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #17 on: 2017-03-14, 01:19:49 »
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Yes the flying out was just a thought experiment put into Phase one.. ,I am wondering if rpm has a gain effect which at speed the weight  would Fly off [centrifugal force]
and could be caught by the wheel to impart that energy into the wheel as a pulse, I had heard the Abeling wheel was "bangy" noisy
as  it hit a certain speed and did this banging as it caught the flying weights ??

as I process these thoughts ... I keep hearing the common sense and obvious conclusions [in my head] but the falling weight [at speed]
still taunts my remaining grey cells ....

and of course it could all be Hooyey...
   
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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #18 on: 2017-03-14, 11:39:45 »

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Dear ION.

How easy would it be to simulate a wheel connected to the motor in an horizontal plane with say a 1 Kg weight attached to the rim? Then have the whole assembly always  tipped off balance ? A horizontal version of this?

https://youtu.be/X4ppw8N0gfE

 ;)

Cheers Graham.


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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #19 on: 2017-03-14, 15:08:25 »
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Quote from: Grumage on 2017-03-14, 11:39:45
Dear ION.

How easy would it be to simulate a wheel connected to the motor in an horizontal plane with say a 1 Kg weight attached to the rim? Then have the whole assembly always  tipped off balance ? A horizontal version of this?

https://youtu.be/X4ppw8N0gfE

 ;)

Cheers Graham.

Dear Graham

I can build a vertical version of something very similar, but we know that it will work vertical or horizontal as the tipping force represents power input that should exactly match the power generated by the wheel.

I will build it as time permits.

Regards, ION


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #20 on: 2017-03-14, 16:00:00 »

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Quote from: ION on 2017-03-14, 15:08:25
Dear Graham

I can build a vertical version of something very similar, but we know that it will work vertical or horizontal as the tipping force represents power input that should exactly match the power generated by the wheel.

I will build it as time permits.

Regards, ION

Dear ION.

I'm not so sure about the vertical aspect, as from 6 to 12 o'clock the motor has to raise the weight before it can drag the motor round the other side. Net gain Zero.

In the Horizontal plane if the motor and wheel all wobble I think we might see something very different ? Or am I missing something ?

Kind regards, Graham.

 


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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #21 on: 2017-03-14, 16:30:37 »
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OK I hope this is close, sorry it took so long, as I was putting a motor speed control in and messing with it a bit.

Is this what you had in mind Graham?

Of course this needs fine tuning and a way of measuring input power vs output.

Still thinking about that.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #22 on: 2017-03-14, 17:01:14 »

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ION, there's no need to apologise, it's " Bloody marvellous " !!   O0

I liked the way it stalled out then resumed, does that suggest a " Non linear " action is occurring ?

Kind regards, Graham.


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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #23 on: 2017-03-15, 04:42:10 »
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Quote from: Grumage on 2017-03-14, 17:01:14
ION, there's no need to apologise, it's " Bloody marvellous " !!   O0

I liked the way it stalled out then resumed, does that suggest a " Non linear " action is occurring ?

Kind regards, Graham.

Dear Graham

I'm glad you enjoyed it. I did not set the speed to any particular value, which is why it stalled out and resumed. I suspect the input pulses must be perfectly timed to prevent that.

As time permits, I will add more bells and whistles.

Meanwhile, may I suggest that you and Chet take a look at some of the Bessler Wheel 3d renderings on youtube. It is amazing what folks are doing in 3D. There are so many variations to be seen out there.

Cheers


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: Mr. Bessler meets WM2D « Reply #24 on: 2017-03-15, 16:44:04 »
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ION
having actual "cave Man" builds of the three ideas
I have to say my results were not as good as the Sims you ran [the two I built]

I am still digging out from the 2 feet of snow here ,but I hope to get a good Abeling Drawing scratched out for you
to see ...soon
   
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