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Author Topic: Akula, Ruslan, Stalker, device discussion and replications.  (Read 36326 times)
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   Wow Verpies, amazing results. But will it fly?
   Keep guessing.
   One more of your negative comments, and it will be your last, here. Last call. Cut the personal crap.
Be a man, make something that works, for once. Stop being a dick.
My opinions of the split tube was to avoid wasting more time. Like we are doing now. You asked for it. Sorry to see you back. I don't care for your attitude. Nor your limited (NO) knowledge of self running devices.

     NickZ
   

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Wow Verpies, amazing results. But will it fly?
Keep guessing.
At least I am making an educated guess about the operating principle, not aimlessly varying the build like you are doing.

One more of your negative comments, and it will be your last, here. Last call. Cut the personal crap.
What personal crap?  I haven't called you a name once. I just criticize your words and actions.

Be a man, make something that works, for once.
"For once"?  I have designed plenty of circuits that work.  Just none of them are OU.

Stop being a dick.
See, that is an AdHominem epithet.  Learn the difference between this and criticism.

My opinions of the split tube was to avoid wasting more time. Like we are doing now.
Do you even know how the split tube is supposed to work ?
Can you justify your off-hand rejection of it with anything else but your feelings ?

Also, you don't need me to waste time. I haven't been here for a year and you did just fine without me.

You asked for it.
No problem

Sorry to see you back. I don't care for your attitude.
Yeah, apparently you do not care for people who disagree and argue with you.  ...even without Ad Hominems.
You are avoiding most of my questions and I answer every one of yours.  Count how many of my question marks you have ignored and how many have I.

Nor your limited (NO) knowledge of self running devices.
I am not even certain they exist.
Do you know something I don't ?

   
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   Yes, you are right about not liking people who just want to argue and hassle and critize every thing that I say. You are it.
  I prefer to work with people that cooperate compare and share notes on their builds, show scope shots, explain in simple terms what works and what doesn't, for them. Yet there is not a single person here who will build a totally exact as possible replication, and do their best to make it work, as shown. Not one in any forum that I know of at least.
  So, go ahead blindly give out more instruction for someone else to build, so you can continue to critize while doing nothing for this project, but more and more guesses. That won't work...
  I do want to get back to what Itsu and I were working to research and analyze different aspect of this particular build.
As talking to you, is wasting my time and efforts, Split tube.
 
   NickZ
   
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The Al causes a small frequency upshift and amplitude loss.  I actually expected more of these changes.
But that is not bad - it just means that the Al is absorbing RF energy.

Do you have non-conductive ferrite magnets that you can stuff inside ? (the Russians used to call it ferrite kielbasa - sausage, but they did not understand its purpose and only used soft ferrite without the magnets).
The purpose of the magnets is to provide static magnetic field polarization to the Al. The windings can also provide the static magnetic field, too, when they are powered by DC through an RF choke.

What are the OD & ID diameters of this Al pipe, anyway ?
Can you measure or estimate the DC & AC magnetic flux density (B) that the aluminum is subjected to?

Introducing an aluminium pipe as core mainly decrease the inductance so, my guess a slotted pipe will introduce some kind of asymmetric effect because of the gap, consider electric flow in the inductor where inductance is switched up-down on every turn at every slot … like a pulsed inductance, but overall impedance should be reduced which may add on efficiency also, take in account overall outcome.
   

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The Al causes a small frequency upshift and amplitude loss.  I actually expected more of these changes.
But that is not bad - it just means that the Al is absorbing RF energy.

Do you have non-conductive ferrite magnets that you can stuff inside ? (the Russians used to call it ferrite kielbasa - sausage, but they did not understand its purpose and only used soft ferrite without the magnets).
The purpose of the magnets is to provide static magnetic field polarization to the Al. The windings can also provide the static magnetic field, too, when they are powered by DC through an RF choke.

What are the OD & ID diameters of this Al pipe, anyway ?
Can you measure or estimate the DC & AC magnetic flux density (B) that the aluminum is subjected to?


I do have a bunch of non-conductive ferrite magnets (47.5 x 22 x 9.5 mm) which i can stuff inside the tube.

The OD & ID diameters of this Al pipe are 42mm & 36mm.

About measuring or estimating the DC & AC magnetic flux density (B) that the aluminum is subjected to is more difficult as i do not have any calibrated equipment able of doing so.
I have a hall sensor probe able of doing some measurements, but if it is saying anything significant i doubt it.

I will make some further tests later today.

I am also building your lossless clamp designed yoke driver to be able to drive the Inductor in series resonance to get some more power into the Grenade.


Itsu
   

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Yes, you are right about not liking people who just want to argue and hassle and critize every thing that I say. You are it.
Yes, I want to criticise your methodology. But, I do not want to hassle you about everything for the sake of it- I just made a conscious decision to not let you get away with anything this time.  That is why this continues.

I prefer to work with people that cooperate compare and share notes on their builds, show scope shots,
Yes, I do that when something new piques my interest and makes sense.  My lab is one of the better equipped ones here.

explain in simple terms what works and what doesn't, for them.
Well here is the clincher.  You are immune to even considering any explanations that do not involve your cherished energy from vacuum.
Any attempt to do so and you cry - too complicated, too complicated!  Tariel said it was simple - whatever that means.

Yet there is not a single person here who will build a totally exact as possible replication
That is because the device is poorly documented and can be replicated only superficially.
Most importantly its guiding operating principle is missing and you make no effort to postulate a plausible one.

..., and do their best to make it work, as shown.  Not one in any forum that I know of at least.
"As shown" refers to these superficial characteristics only.
Anyway, I think you are unfair to the people that had tried to replicate this device superficially in this forum (like you had) when you write that they have not done their best.

So, go ahead blindly give out more instruction for someone else to build,
I don't give instructions blindly. I make suggestions that are guided by some operating principle.
You do not, you just try different parameters and permutations of components without a plausible operating principle to guide you.

so you can continue to critize while doing nothing for this project, but more and more guesses.
You write it as if postulating some operating principle was bad and guiding the build according to it was "nothing".
While winding and soldering wires and tuning frequencies to obtain the highest amplitudes and bulb brightness was "something" good ...but never OU.

That won't work...
Do you know something I don't or can you foresee the future now ?
Did you find an inconsistency in my proposed operating principle  or find a proof that your operating principle works for sure ...and by exclusion mine cannot ?

I do want to get back to what Itsu and I were working to research and analyze different aspect of this particular build.
You did a lot of work with Itsu on this device, what have you learned ?
What are you learning now ?  Is there a guiding operating principle that you are trying to confirm or deny with his build ?

As talking to you, is wasting my time and efforts, Split tube.
You just resorted to derision when confronted with a component that does not fit your preconceived notions about this device and its superficial appearance.
This is what I was writing about lately.  You reject without justification and offer no alternative in return.  You don't support you assertions with evidence. That research methodology is fundamentally flawed.

Do you even know what is the function of that aluminum tube ?
Were all the conditions satisfied for it to perform this function when you had tried it?
Did you even know what these conditions are ?
   

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I have a hall sensor probe able of doing some measurements, but if it is saying anything significant i doubt it.
Perhaps its readings will make sense if you feed the windings with similar currents that the waveforms have now ...but DC.
   

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Buy me a cigar
Verpies, a couple of questions please?

Was there a particular reason why Aluminium was chosen for the core?

Is the mass of this medium, pardon the pun, critical?

I was thinking that if metal foil were to be used the ends could overlap slightly and a strip of thin insulation provide the minute gap you mentioned in an earlier post? If metal foil is a suitable material I could send Itsu some Copper foil left over from a previous experiment?

In my own replication attempt, I made two Aluminium split tubes with a plastic insulation between them. Forming a simple parallel plate capacitor. Inside these plates was placed a coil of around 800 turns on a 50 mm diameter plastic tube. These were connected together to form a resonant circuit within the main coil on the 100 mm tube.

When powered up my device created severe disruption to everything. The camera would freeze and the fluorescent lights above would, whilst switched on become striated with dark and light areas along the length.

Cheers Grum.


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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   

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Neither Ruslan, Stalker, Dally or some other the setups have lots in common. So a review can be done regarding the overall mode of operation.... ( this Mode of Operation schould be defined first, even when its not clear we must set a idea and unless proven wrong we got to hold to it)
When we all agree on how we think this setup operates we have to define the conditions.
These conditions need to be challenged in a sort of test plan.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Even the most contrived operating principle is better for guiding these builds than the superficial replications which Nick has been pursuing for years.

I'd like to reserve the right to balk at any proposed operating principle which is based on immeasurable or unfalsifiable phenomena.

Executing this in a controlled matter and adjusting based on test results will not only lead us to our goal but also prevent us from doing the same ineffective steps over again.
Personally looking back I did a replication of the Ruslan setup, as a lot of us I didn't came further glowing a vew bulbs like a buck booster setup. Something is missing.
Yes!, the guiding operating principle.
It is not documented well so we must make educated guesses about it and verify them by experimentation.

My take on how this setup as it is presented to us on youtube operates is;
We create a LF signal in the grenade and by injecting a HF signal the mixer (grenade) it gets mixed and feeds the load.
We can discuss a lot about what is seen on schematics and is it really as build as shown on YouTube?
Only superficially.

So whats missing or in other words which step inside the system is not working properly?
If you propose a plausible energy gain mechanism it can be verified or rejected experimentally. Without it we are missing the principle that must guide these builds.

   

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Verpies, a couple of questions please?
Was there a particular reason why Aluminium was chosen for the core?
Yes, 100% of the natural aluminum on Earth has a magnetic moment, but it is not the best material.  Currently it is just what Itsu had on hand.

Is the mass of this medium, pardon the pun, critical?
Not the bulk mass.
Big chunks of any conductive material (like aluminum) oppose the external radial alternating magnetic flux by means of the Lenz law and eddy currents (composed of slow electrons).
The purpose of the slot is to interrupt this current while still allowing the fast electrons/e+ to jump the slot.  This is two times the reason for which regular transformer cores are made out of isolated laminations.

I was thinking that if metal foil were to be used the ends could overlap slightly and a strip of thin insulation provide the minute gap you mentioned in an earlier post? If metal foil is a suitable material I could send Itsu some Copper foil left over from a previous experiment?
Brass would be a better material.
Yes, rolled up metal foil would interrupt the eddy currents better than the undivided metal but it would also dissipate the energy of the fast electrons/e+ faster in the repeated passages through the dielectric layers traversed at very acute angles. So it might be a mixed bag of blessings.
Anyway, the walls of the roll would have to be thick so these fast electrons/e+ are not able to easily esape the metal as the magnetic confinement loses coherence and allows them to spiral out.  Thick walls allow them for more play-room.

In my own replication attempt, I made two Aluminium split tubes with a plastic insulation between them. Forming a simple parallel plate capacitor. Inside these plates was placed a coil of around 800 turns on a 50 mm diameter plastic tube. These were connected together to form a resonant circuit within the main coil on the 100 mm tube.
Like this ?
   
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I wholeheartedly agree.
Even the most contrived operating principle is better for guiding these builds than the superficial replications which Nick has been pursuing for years.

I'd like to reserve the right to balk at any proposed operating principle which is based on immeasurable or unfalsifiable phenomena.
Yes!, the guiding operating principle.
It is not documented well so we must make educated guesses about it and verify them by experimentation.
Only superficially.
If you propose a plausible energy gain mechanism it can be verified or rejected experimentally. Without it we are missing the principle that must guide these builds.

Verpies,
Well, much appriciated for this reply.
I had cancelled my account, but reading the last pages and some other thread I decided to comeback.

Good to see some people are taking pro active the lead and also like to work out of the box.
   

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Buy me a cigar
Like this ?

A little bit, yes. I think the term “ loosely coupled “ might be an exaggeration, more baggy…..  ;D

Here’s a link to the video I made nearly 10 years ago. Hopefully you can see the Aluminium tubes and their connection to the inner, Ferrite loaded choke.

https://youtu.be/LOqjTHmmumU?feature=shared

I have discovered an amazing source for metal materials here in the UK. They’re called M-Machine and they carry an immense variety of products. Brass tube amongst them. I could arrange something with Itsu if we can figure out what is actually needed.

Cheers Grum.


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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   

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I had cancelled my account, but reading the last pages and some other thread I decided to comeback.
That's a good thing. I've been away for a long time.

So what is your most plausible guiding operating principle of this device, that does not involve unmeasurable an unfalsifiable phenomena ?
   

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Here’s a link to the video I made nearly 10 years ago. Hopefully you can see the Aluminium tubes and their connection to the inner, Ferrite loaded choke.
https://youtu.be/LOqjTHmmumU?feature=shared
Oh yeah, these were the times before the wife sent you to the couch for spending money on electronics.

Anyway, these aluminum liners were too thin to have a chance of working, because fast electrons could not spiral in such thin walls for a long time.
Also, you did not have a purposeful mechanism for creating the radial magnetic flux periodically in the aluminum.

I have discovered an amazing source for metal materials here in the UK. They’re called M-Machine and they carry an immense variety of products. Brass tube amongst them.
That's great. Do they have pure iron ?

For now, I would suggest that Itsu keeps that aluminum tube as is but with a narrower slot (or slots).
Maybe later, he can cut a 1cm long ring off of it and surround it on both flat sides with soft ferrite to guide uniform magnetic flux from the permanent magnets through that ring.
There is long way to get it to multiply the fast electrons from there, though.

Most likely his diameter is too small and one day he will need your help to get a larger ring.  Maybe lathed-out or laser-cut from a 1cm-thick sheet metal (the flat sides should be ideally parallel).
   
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I've been away for along time.

So what is your most plausible guiding operating principle of this device, that does not involve unmeasurable an unfalsifiable phenomena ?

Thanks for that question.

There have been several, could be one of them the solutions. Personally I blame myself in lack of engineering knowledge and or given up to early.
Pourly documentated by myself as well is a flaw for picking up the tools.

In my understanding we have to create a process that aligns current and voltage... real power.
We get voltage from the inductorloop and probably we expect the current coming from the kacher.
This current needs to be injected and not getting absorbed in the same process cycle.
When the grenade is connected as an output coil it has to be a coil and a capacitor, at the same moment in time? I dont think so... as we have to use the karakteristics of these two components to align 'current and voltage'.
So now we come to the point of 'electrostatic induction' and timing/ synchronisation of this process.

In my opinion the grenade is missing a component i  order to absorb the current from this electrostatic induction as this charging looks to be done trough the antenna.
Foil or a additional tube inside the grenade as what is at the moment explored by Itsu in some kind of matter could be it.
2nd suggestion
I also challenged the possibility that the inductor coil is the output coil and push pull driven also.
I always found it strange that a fixed 470nF series cap was used in order to tune the inductorloop....
If this is the case the grenade could fit more i to the electrostatic process as well.

I hope this gives some food for tougth.







 
   

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Ok….

I have just checked, you, Verpies have your own bench available. What about setting up a topic there based upon the current discussion?
Out of curiosity what diameter of Aluminium tube @ 10 mm wall thickness were you thinking of? And obviously the width.  The slit could be “ wire eroded “ what would be the maximum acceptable gap needed?

I would be more than happy to provide any mechanical help required.

Cheers Grum.


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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   

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Enjoy your trek through life but leave no tracks
A 38 2" or equiv metric copper water pipe will work you could cut a slit down it with a nibbler or a saw.
might be easyer to get

sil


---------------------------
Be aware I'm moderated because I complained about persistent trolls to Chet, folowing me round and got same treatment as perpetrators..This is the third time, You aint doing this again.
   

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I have just checked, you, Verpies have your own bench available.
I don't think I do because Chet just told me that the forum has limited number of benches.

What about setting up a topic there based upon the current discussion?
I could but I prefer to wait until Itsu finishes verifying Nick's M.O. - I hope he knows more about it than I do.

Out of curiosity what diameter of Aluminium tube @ 10 mm wall thickness were you thinking of? And obviously the width.
That is an engineering detail that can be solved by following the guiding operational principle.
It predominantly depends on the strength of the magnets. The stronger the magnets the smaller the ring can be.
This is because stronger magnets curve the paths of the fast electrons/e+ more than weak magnets, so they don't escape the ring.
An additional DC winding over the soft ferrite can aid the magnets and increase the almost static axial magnetic flux density (B) inside the ring.
I have an equation for it but I need to know the strength of the magnets to use it.  My intuition tells me 5cm < r < 10cm.
Who knows, maybe Itsu's pipe and magnets can satisfy the confinement condition already.

The slit could be “ wire eroded “ what would be the maximum acceptable gap needed?
EDM is nice but slow and expensive.  For larger rings the saw-cut slit can be closed down to zero by squeezing the ring externally.
Intuitively: 0.1mm should be enough to stop the large eddy currents.  That's the common Kapton's tape thickness.
   

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In my understanding we have to create a process that aligns current and voltage... real power.
So why can't we just take the 100kV from a Van de Graaf generator and combine it with the 10A from an alkaline AA battery to get a MW ?
Both sources of voltage and current are already DC so there is no problem with aligning their phase.
« Last Edit: 2023-09-23, 19:15:16 by verpies »
   
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   Guys:
   I am researching and analyzing results, as always. I don't own a mode of operation, as yet. But, it is not the same idea as ape just mentioned. And yes, Itsu is much more familiar with what I have mentioned, and others have as well.
  My suggestion is that this is an interruptor circuit, not an additive type of interaction. Not a this and that equal more output type of system. Not aligning the signals,  but stoping the magnetic current at just the right time and frequency, instead.
   The thing is I'm still just learning about all this different ways of doing things. Nor do I need nor want anybody to think that these are just Nick's ideas. As they are not. Nor am I here to lead the show or have to prove anything, for now. I'm working on what is wrong, by first understanding the proper principals behind the different ways of dealing with this project. And I keep in mind that this is all still very experimental, at best.
   
  Welcome back Ape. Thanks for your feed back.

   NickZ
   

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Itsu,

It may be assumed but you didn't mention it so I have to ask, is the slotted tube grounded?  With the tube grounded, there will be mutual capacitances present between it and the various windings which should produce various resonant peaks not seen without it.

Pm

PM,

i retested with the alu pipe grounded and ungrounded, see here:



Yellow is grounded and white is ungrounded, and we see some lower overall amplitude when grounded, but indeed some extra resonance points in the middle.
But at the beginning frequency (25kHz range) not much has changed.

I had to use a similar but other lamp as the one used yesterday was broken, therefor some overall less amplitude (more load on the Grenade) compared to yesterday.

Itsu
   

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Perhaps its readings will make sense if you feed the windings with similar currents that the waveforms have now ...but DC.

So you mean use a DC current directly into the Grenade coil and measure with the hall sensor inside its former.
   
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So why can't we just take the 100kV form a Van de Graaf generator and combine it with the 10A from an alkaline AA battery to get a MW ?
Both sources of voltage and current are already DC so there is no problem with aligning their phase.

Well that would be perfect, how to connect it is probably the challenge w/o blowing up something.
   
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   Itsu:
   I just remembered that Akula's first self runner used what Wesley called a drossel, or something like that. That was placed inside of the big vertical coils. Bulbs connect to the big coil and ground. That was years ago, I don't recall all the details. But,  later devices dropped that coiled aluminum sheet, altogether.

   NickZ
 
   

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I don't think I do because Chet just told me that the forum has limited number of benches.
I could but I prefer to wait until Itsu finishes verifying Nick's M.O. - I hope he knows more about it than I do.
That is an engineering detail that can be solved by following the guiding operational principle.
It predominantly depends on the strength of the magnets. The stronger the magnets the smaller the ring can be.
This is because stronger magnets curve the paths of the fast electrons/e+ more than weak magnets, so they don't escape the ring.
An additional DC winding over the soft ferrite can aid the magnets and increase the almost static axial magnetic flux density (B) inside the ring.
I have an equation for it but I need to know the strength of the magnets to use it.  My intuition tells me 5cm < r < 10cm.
Who knows, maybe Itsu's pipe and magnets can satisfy the confinement condition already.
EDM is nice but slow and expensive.  For larger rings the saw-cut slit can be closed down to zero by squeezing the ring externally.
Intuitively: 0.1mm should be enough to stop the large eddy currents.  That's the common Kapton's tape thickness.

You DO have a bench available!! Just scroll down from the home page you’re between Vasik and Vidura….

As for EDM, I have direct access to a machine. There would be no expense other than the cost of posting. Don’t forget that by squeezing the gap you would create a taper to the gap.  ;)

Cheers Grum.


---------------------------
Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
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