Replication of ION's bifilar

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Author Topic: Replication of ION's bifilar (Read 94575 times)

ion	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #100 on: 2011-11-04, 14:58:19 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: Grumpy on 2011-11-04, 13:35:48 What if an external magnetic field is applied to align them all the time? You know, electrons have a "cloud" of "virtual particles" around them that communicates with the rest of the universe. These vp's can move back and forth the transfer momentum or they can break free and move away without being pulled back. So, potentially, you can excite electrons into projecting momentum while never exhausting themselves. These are tests we need to perform. SM spoke of nulling the external magnetic field. Whether he actually aligned the electrons is to be determined. The "kick" might be the mechanical reaction of the wire when the electrons are first tugged out of alignment with the earth magnetic field. It would seem they would then become circularly polarized around the wire due to current flow. An external compass seems to indicate this. The experiment needs to be run with a single wire rather than bifilar to eliminate repulsion effects. Then we need to determine if there is a relaxation time constant, when current is interrupted. Is this the mechanism behind inductance? --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Grumpy	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #101 on: 2011-11-04, 17:16:25 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3947 tExB=qr	Quote from: ION on 2011-11-04, 14:58:19 These are tests we need to perform. SM spoke of nulling the external magnetic field. Whether he actually aligned the electrons is to be determined. The "kick" might be the mechanical reaction of the wire when the electrons are first tugged out of alignment with the earth magnetic field. It would seem they would then become circularly polarized around the wire due to current flow. An external compass seems to indicate this. The experiment needs to be run with a single wire rather than bifilar to eliminate repulsion effects. Then we need to determine if there is a relaxation time constant, when current is interrupted. Is this the mechanism behind inductance? If the "kick" were the mechanical reaction, SM would not have gotten thousands of them per second. A compass is metal and therefore will react to an electric field as well as a magnetic field. They will conduct HV too. When electrons are first disturbed, they have to let the universe know. Yes, look for a relaxation time. Inductance is a transfer of momentum. When a magnet or magnetic field moves or changes, the momentum carriers move, momentum is transferred, and electrons drift.

Chef	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #102 on: 2011-11-04, 23:29:06 »
Jr. Member Posts: 69	Quote from: Grumpy on 2011-11-04, 17:16:25 If the "kick" were the mechanical reaction, SM would not have gotten thousands of them per second. I guess, if he did want us to think , it is necessary to create thousands of current kick per second, he would definitely talk about rectifiers, and perfect sine waves in the letters. --------------------------- "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Grumpy	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #103 on: 2011-11-05, 01:49:36 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3947 tExB=qr	Quote from: Chef on 2011-11-04, 23:29:06 I guess, if he did want us to think , it is necessary to create thousands of current kick per second, he would definitely talk about rectifiers, and perfect sine waves in the letters. From the Master of Magnetics: Quote In regard to your query about the pulse DC conversion and the potential use of the coil to provide motive force: The multiple frequencies traveling around the coils are of too high a frequency to provide for any motive effort. They are only a means to achieve an end. The multiple frequencies begin to feed themselves and the multiple kicks become a combined big kick. I call it resonating. That is why if you notice in the video tapes that it takes just a few seconds for the coil to begin to function at maximum effort. You see, one little kick amounts to nothing. However imagine if you had hundreds of thousands of little kicks combining into one big current kick . . . Quote The multiple frequencies traveling around the coils are of too high a frequency to provide for any motive effort. They are only a means to achieve an end. The multiple frequencies begin to feed themselves and the multiple kicks become a combined big kick. The following is from the Gnostik forum and the edits are very interesting: Quote Also, there is another interesting analogy. We seem to overlook so many things in our society. They are right in our faces but we just look around them without interest at all. When I began to study the effects of multiple frequencies combined together I found out that when you deliberately strive to create the worst case scenario of frequencies (is he talking about superposition of frequencies? or creating noise? Superposition is horrible in some applications, like communications, to be avoided at all costs) you start to get some very measurable kicks. In themselves they are not much. But if you make enough of them fast sendoff, you get a collectible power spike that is more then the power available to begin with. The destructive heating caused by the eddy currents become the problem we face when we make a really large powerful coil. (eddy currents are caused by radiant discharges created from proton/electron precession, this is how metal detectors work, by inducing precession, and also magnetometers, interestingly enough) Now you understand more about the heating problem and why using a fan does not work. (Submersion cooling in a cooled non conductive oil might though, the device obviously creates enough power to cool itself) I must go for now. I am sure I am hitting a lot of bad keys here but I am short for time and I am not going to anal= timwhebyireoda ritten. So please excuse my mistakes. More from SM: Quote If you analin Morgan Jones bana, Valve Amplifiers, 3rd edition, on page 262 he says, The inrush of current through the filament interacts with the earth's magnetic field to produce a small kick. SMALL KICK. Those words mean a great deal. It PROVES that there is an interaction between the magnetic field of the earth and simple electrons running through wires. It may be a small influence but it is actual OVER UNITY.byireodaspent several years of my life thinking about that. Scientists tell us that = tiunity is impossible. They say that you cannot get more out of something then you put into it. Then I think about that wire with the small kick when first turned on. . . Therein lies the secret my friend. This one is really good: Quote I told you that the simplest form of = tiunity is a piece of wire and a voltage source. Anyone can actually connect it and measure. See for yourself the kick. NO coil no xmrs, just a kick. That should tell you earned gentlemen that there exists a form of energy convertible and useable which is directly related to a simple piece of wire and instantaneous electron flow.. (rapidly repeated instantaneous electron flow)No one appears to be willing to get off their asses and do anything except ask and demand more information before they will start to experiment. He makes a very interesting point that every piece of wire is OU when first turned on.

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #104 on: 2011-11-05, 07:37:45 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3869	I forgot to bring my second scope home last night but did remember my camera anyway here's a video. All i am doing is switching on and off the power supply. The voltage is set to 142V unloaded using the variac, this is just enough to give me one working cycle of the thyristor before it latches on. So i am cycling the switch on and off, each time i turn on you can see 1 cycle, sometimes when i switch off you can see high current pulses on my secondary but nothing on my primary. The green channel is Chan 1 and this is connected across the secondary, the yellow Chan is 2 and connected across my primary. It's worth noting that my secondary is across my non inductive bifilar which is 0.171 Ohms so for every 5 volt div on the scope we are seeing 29.3 Amps, some of these pulses are +/- 60 amps or more Chan1 is 5V/div Chan 2 is 100V/div and the timebase is set to 10uS/div At first i concentrate on the scope screen, towards the end i focus on the bulb the switch and the scope so you can see how it all fits together. The important point here is that i am not seeing a large primary voltage spike to cause the large secondary current pulses. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCcx0SELLOI[/youtube] « Last Edit: 2011-11-05, 12:35:55 by Peterae »

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #105 on: 2011-11-05, 08:14:30 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3869	Actually having reviewed the video you can see a very little pulse on the primary occasionally when the pulses appear on the secondary. Good news i can disconnect the primary scope probe and still get the same pulses on the secondary, this at least isolates the earth scope clips and disconnects the primary 0V to the secondary, so in this video i do not have the Chan 2 connected to the primary, and only have the secondary Chan connected to the scope. I have done another video here, but switching on and off as fast as i can, interestingly sometimes the thyristor drives the secondary with a larger amplitude, also worth noting is when i first switch on i can here the bifilar clang together, i could hear this in both videos. You can see that Chan 2 that is laid on the bench near the bifilar is picking up big spikes at the same time, this is still set to 100V/div although the probe is open circuit and not connected to anything. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBqBUpJZeUc[/youtube] « Last Edit: 2011-11-05, 10:33:03 by Peterae »

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #106 on: 2011-11-05, 13:43:42 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3869	A test i need to perform is to replace the bifilar with a 0.2 Ohm resistor and see if the pulses disappear. If you ask me i think it's radiant in nature and shows electrostatic qualities as a result of negative induction resulting from fast switching transitions exceeding the local inductors self resonant frequency. but what do i know

ion	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #107 on: 2011-11-05, 13:44:56 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: Chef on 2011-11-04, 23:29:06 I guess, if he did want us to think , it is necessary to create thousands of current kick per second, he would definitely talk about rectifiers, and perfect sine waves in the letters. Could you expand or clarify what exactly you are getting at with this statement. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

ion	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #108 on: 2011-11-05, 13:47:52 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: Peterae on 2011-11-05, 13:43:42 A test i need to perform is to replace the bifilar with a 0.2 Ohm resistor and see if the pulses disappear. If you ask me i think it's radiant in nature and shows electrostatic qualities as a result of negative induction resulting from fast switching transitions exceeding the local inductors self resonant frequency. but what do i know Those pulses appear to be avalanche mode triggering from something that is charged up or a resonant condition producing voltage higher than your power supply setting. Could you supply a schematic? How close is it to what I have suggested in the rev3 schematic? I have substituted a 0.1 ohm resistor in my setup and the pulses are still there. Which means they have nothing to do with the bifilar, however with the bifilar a little bit of inductance when the wires separate seems to make it happen more often. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #109 on: 2011-11-05, 13:51:43 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3869	Now lets not forget i have no primary pulse to cause the secondary pulse across the bifilar or none in the sense of normal transformer operation. The circuit is exactly as you have drawn, the only difference is i am using 2 mains transformers back to back for isolation and to provide a slight step down in final voltage. I will try to draw the circuit up later tonight. I am currently using a 100Watt bulb in series with the variac. When the Thyristor locks up i have little voltage across my power supply, hence the 100 watt bulb is taking the load current, but when i switch off i would have no rebound of supply voltage because the switch disconnects the supply, so any energy in the system cannot be stored anywhere from what i can see, the only thing that can happen is a brief amount of switching transitions occur when i switch off this would be the only energy entering the system at this point.

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #110 on: 2011-11-05, 13:59:40 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3869	So maybe i need to scope across the A-K of the thyristor to see if there is any possibility of Avalance, if there is i don't see how unless there's still energy in the MOT Choke

ion	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #111 on: 2011-11-05, 14:01:10 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: Peterae on 2011-11-05, 13:51:43 Now lets not forget i have no primary pulse to cause the secondary pulse across the bifilar or non in the sense of normal transformer operation. The circuit is exactly as you have drawn, the only difference is i am using 2 mains transformers back to back for isolation and to provide a slight step down in final voltage. I will try to draw the circuit up later tonight. I am currently using a 100Watt bulb in series with the variac. When the Thyristor locks up little voltage across my power supply, hence the 100 watt bulb is taking the load current, but when i switch off i would have no rebound of supply voltage because the switch disconnects the supply, so any energy in the system cannot be stored anywhere from what i can see, the only thing that can happen is a brief amount of switching transitions occur when i switch off this would be the only energy entering the system at this point. There is energy stored in the choke as it is in the direct path for the current to flow, especially so when the SCR has latched on. When the supply is switched off the choke releases the energy as back emf and rings with the 1.0 uf capacitor. If you scope the voltage across the 1.0 uf you will see the ringing when the supply is switched off. Be careful, the peak can be up to 1000 V depending on the avalanche breakdown of your SCR. That's why the trigger pulse is not needed. Be sure to use your 100X probes. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #112 on: 2011-11-05, 14:08:07 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3869	Right i see, OK that will be the next test when i get home Thanks ION, any idea why we see the pulse on the secondary and not on the primary.

ion	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #113 on: 2011-11-05, 14:13:55 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: Peterae on 2011-11-05, 14:08:07 Right i see, OK that will be the next test when i get home Thanks ION any idea why we see the pulse on the secondary and not on the primary. Not sure how your scope works, but the triggering would have to be set on the primary pulse. On older analog scopes, chopped mode is used for dual trace high speed work. "Alternate" mode will miss the timing concurrence. I'm beginning to lose faith in the capacitor discharge SCR method, although it is robust and can deliver healthy pulses of known energy, what we need is a more controlled way of generating the pulses and the relaxation time. Perhaps the SCR method can be salvaged by using higher current, higher voltage devices in order to generate the brief pulses to kick the electrons, not trying to rely on avalanche, and gating the normal pulse generator diac with a NPN transistor to ground (across the 0.1 uf). This gating signal to the transistor can come from an external signal generator or 555 timer. It seems there is a current threshold below which the vigorous wire movement does not occur. Too much to try, too little time --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #114 on: 2011-11-05, 14:18:53 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3869	Normally when the Chan that is set for trigger in this case Chan 1 secondary, the scope triggers both channel's to lock at the same time. So we should be seeing a pulse on both at the same time, it clearly does this for the first cycle of the Thyristor before latch up. I can try setting the triggering for Chan 2 the primary but doubt this will alter much apart from if i really have no pulse we wont see the pulse on the secondary, i will try this anyway.

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #115 on: 2011-11-05, 14:51:06 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3869	Quote Too much to try, too little time No rush, it's very interesting, one design is almost certainly going to lead to other designs, this does not frustrate me, the hardest part is getting motivated to put the time in, which is not easy with the way normal life takes us these days, if we look back a 100 years how rare must it have been for someone to spend spare time and spare money building things, most were lucky to feed themselves, the ability to have time for a hobby would infer real wealth I think the reason that i am not seeing violent movement is because the energy in my pulse is spread over too long a time period. I seem to get the wires clinging to each other or trying to linearly push each other apart. Because of the latch up i am getting, i think all i need to do is wind a bit more on the primary to stop this. Anyway i would like to clear up whats happening right now before moving on. So things to do Scope across 1uF film cap with x100 probe. Trigger on primary Scope A-K of thyristor Maybe replace the bifilar with a 0.2 resistance and see what i have.

ion	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #116 on: 2011-11-05, 17:20:07 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	I think my next round of experiments will be with this modified circuit, where I can set the gated burst and number of pulses in the burst. It has a few advantages in that we are stressing the SCR less, and during the relaxation period, the power supply can rise to a higher voltage, plus we can precisely set the number of diac induced pulses within the gating period. Also it does not rely on the avalanche effect of the SCR and unpredictable ringing of the choke. ------------------------ Replication of ION's bifilar VibraWire rev4.jpg (46.84 kB, 718x359 - viewed 559 times.) --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #117 on: 2011-11-05, 17:32:03 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3869	Looks great ION, So this can control the trigger, wow i could hook up my controller to drive 2 of these circuits, this is a great development. The thyristor is so much more robust than the fets i was using previously.

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #118 on: 2011-11-05, 18:04:10 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3869	First test Chan 1 across bifilar Chan 2 across 1uF film Capacitor set to 50V/Div not much happening here although the are some pulses. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0fP_ecYNu0[/youtube]

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #119 on: 2011-11-05, 18:18:51 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3869	Second Test Chan1 across secondary Chan2 across MOT choke with neg clip on film cap side of choke, positive scope clip on C3 side, 100V/Div [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd3P96wMuXk[/youtube]

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #120 on: 2011-11-05, 18:26:01 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3869	Third Test Chan 1 across secondary Chan 2 across A/K of thyristor 100V/Div [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8yMu4h5Odc[/youtube]

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #121 on: 2011-11-05, 18:48:20 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3869	Fourth Test Triggering on the primary while scope both primary and secondary. Well this was interesting. First video was same timebase setting as all the other videos. Chan1 Secondary Chan 2 Primary using this Chan to trigger from, timebase set to 10uS Second video was the same with the timebase wound up, now they show up on the primary Timebase is set to 20ms [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGHDukDQNLk[/youtube] [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huc_xyWjWPU[/youtube]

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #122 on: 2011-11-05, 18:55:29 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3869	OK so triggering on the primary does indeed seem to show the pulses on the primary. Sorry for wasting everyones time $:-\$ also this x100 probe seems to show the pulses slightly better as well I still cannot work out why triggering and the secondary does not show the pulses as both Chan 1 and Chan2 should be sampled at the same time from the same trigger point, at least that's what has always happened

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #123 on: 2011-11-05, 21:53:03 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3869	Actually that last 2 videos were sabotaged by my Mrs, she wrecked the back end of my bifilar, i had not realized the bifilar was no longer together and tight at the back end behind me. Anyway i have tried both scopes now, and from what i can see i can still trigger from the primary and get pulses on the secondary and not on the primary, but from what i can see they are very rare. I need to re run the experiment with triggering on secondary vs triggering on primary, there still something not right going on here. I know for a fact that it should not matter if i trigger from Chan1 or Chan2, when using the scope for digital analysis it does not matter and it should be the same when doing ac wave analysis, both channels are sampled at the same time from the triggering channel.

ion	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #124 on: 2011-11-06, 01:04:06 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Peterae Please be extra careful with your scope and ground connections. I've been using an old TEK analog scope that is repairable. I would feel very bad if you lost your nice DSO. There can be sneak ground paths and capacitive coupling that can destroy things. I hope your scope has sufficient mains isolation. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

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