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Author Topic: Hidden Ferromagnetic Energy Release  (Read 15274 times)

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I have started this thread in the hope that we can get some experiments done to prove an important point about magnetic energy.  I have long held the view that in magnetized ferromagnetic material, be it soft or hard, there is an enormous quantity of magnetic energy stored in the inter-atomic space.  This is not recognized by existing theory but IMO that theory is significantly flawed.  It uses a charactristic called magnetization M that has dimensions of dipole-moment per cubic meter, it being the volume density of the aligned electron dipoles that are responsible for the effect.  That should really be a number density, something like 1028 dipoles per cubic meter, but the manner in which the science has developed M is treated as a continuous attribute filling all space within the ferromagnet.  That is as ridiculous as imagining that the mass of electrons and nuclei doesn't reside within those particles, but is spread around all space within matter.  I started writing papers on this 14 years ago and the fourth version I published in 2005.  It is appended here for your perusal.

When you charge an inductor that has a ferromagnetic core to store energy of value 1/2Li2 the actual energy stored in that inner space is Chi times that value, where Chi is the magnetic susceptibility, very close to the relative permeability muR (because muR=1+Chi).  The additional hidden energy comes from the electron dipoles, not from the current source.  My reason for bringing this up now is the possibility of releasing that large quantity of hidden energy simply by taking the core material above its Curie point.  With relative permeabilities that can reach as high as 106 (Metglas) I think that sort of huge energy gain is worth striving for, even if the requirement for thermal driving means that the repetition rate will be very low. My vision is something that is driven alternately with thermal heating and cooling pulses thus alternating about the Curie temperature and releasing large value energy pulses at a low repetition rate.  However the initial experiment can be a simple one-shot, just heat a charged inductor to above the Curie point and see what happens.

My reasoning on this assumes that a shorted coil around the core will, at the Curie switching point, hold the magnetic field at its pre-value even though the dipole alignments are destroyed.  Because the inductance has dropped significantly to that of an air-cored one, the current through the shorted coil has to increase in value to take the place of the now defunct electron dipoles.  You now have an air-cored coil that can discharge into a resistive load, and that energy is the original hidden energy within the ferromagnetic material.  Is anyone willing to take this on?  Of course the inductor must be wound in toroidal form on a ring core, and that core can't be enclosed within a plastic case (which rules out the Metglas mega-mu core), and attention must be paid to the magnet wire insulation that has to survive the heating.

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A creative and interesting idea, thanks for sharing it I will give it a try when I get out from under my domestic workload.


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sounds good Smudge  O0

OK to clarify and make a practical experiment, wind a primary coil with high temperature insulation, drive this with a AC current, also have a secondary coil that is shorted by a 0.1 Ohm resistor to monitor current, then heat core with blow torch, when really hot the current should increase in the secondary.

Although this does not sound correct to me because when hot it will be an air core and there will be no secondary current.

So maybe we drive the primary coil with DC 1 Amp, zero current flows through the shorted turn, we then heat the core above the curie point and all the stored core energy dissipates in the shorted turn, we can calculate the total stored energy by calculating the dissipated energy in our 0.1 resistor.

How evenly heated does the core need to be?
   

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sounds good Smudge  O0

So maybe we drive the primary coil with DC 1 Amp, zero current flows through the shorted turn
The shorted turn is not shorted while the DC current builds up.  It is shorted when the DC current is stable.

Quote
we then heat the core above the curie point and all the stored core energy dissipates in the shorted turn, we can calculate the total stored energy by calculating the dissipated energy in our 0.1 resistor

That's about it.  The problem is how does the magnetization behave as you go through the Curie point because a slow change may not give you a measurable pulse.  If we had a superconducting shorted coil then it would take on the current needed to keep the flux constant even over a long time frame, and then you could remove the short from across a load resistor to discharge the now air-cored coil.  I think the experiment is worth doing with say your 0.1 ohm resistor just to see if there is a sudden pulse.  I can't find any evidence that this has been done before.  There is plenty of evidence for thermo-magnetic motors that really work but they are different to this.  Interestingly this web site says that they can be OU. https://contest.techbriefs.com/2014/entries/sustainable-technologies/4921

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How evenly heated does the core need to be?

I would guess that the objective would be to take the whole core through the Curie temperature at the same time.

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The shorted turn is not shorted while the DC current builds up.  It is shorted when the DC current is stable.
Well that can be done with a switch, just switch the short on the turn after applying DC current to the primary.  O0

Quote
I would guess that the objective would be to take the whole core through the Curie temperature at the same time.
So we need to make a miniature oven really with a temperature probe to monitor the temperature, we could drive the primary coil with AC run the temperature up while monitoring the secondary and when we loose our secondary output would give us an idea of the curie temperature.
I have some heating element wire so should be able to make a heater for a little brick furnace.
I could wrap the copper wire with kiln paper for insulation.

Any preference on core material, what is the best we can get for a reasonable price? or shall i just use one i have laying around.



   

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@Peterae,
Use the one lying around that has the the lowest Curie temperature.
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Looks like my thermocouples i have are only capable of 250 Deg C maximum, hopefully that should be ok for most ferrites.

I have constructed a miniature kiln using 2 small baking dishes packed with high temperature fire cement that has  up to 1250 Deg C resistance starts glassing at 800 Deg C, it will take a while to thoroughly dry.

I can then wind some turns on the core and sandwich between the top and bottom halves of the kiln, i wound the heater element into the bottom half of the kiln.

The space for the core and windings is 35mm diameter.

How well it will work i don't yet know, but hopefully next weekend i will try heating it up  O0

The primary current carrying coil should i wind that all the way around the core or is just one side OK.?

1 turn for the secondary or would multiple turns be better.?

Thanks
Peter

   

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The primary current carrying coil should i wind that all the way around the core or is just one side OK.?
All the way round.

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1 turn for the secondary or would multiple turns be better.?
One turn is not the best form of coupling so I would go for more turns and again wound all the way round.  Use the largest dia wire you can fit so that any energy recovered is not lost in the coil.

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Biggest wire i will be able to use is 1mm because i have high temp sleeving for only 1mm.

Main problem with 2 wires wound all the way around is they may shield parts of the core from the heat with the fiberglass high temp sleeving, i will try to gap the winding as best as i can, but probably will not be able to get that many turns on a small core.

I will give it a go anyway  O0
   

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OK sorry for the delay.

Some specs
Core Type:4C65, OD=23mm, ID=18mm
Turns: 4.5 Bifilar copper enamelled wire in high temp sleeving, Wire is 18SWG.
Inductance of coil 1, 2.13uH
Inductance of coil 2, 2.16uH, Q @ 10KHz = 32.4, Resistance = 0.0042 Ohms, Impedance @ 10KHz 0.1361 Ohms.

Now i soldered a 0.1 Ohms Metal Film resistor across 1 coil and scoped this.
I ran the primary at 10KHz from a signal generator and scoped the second coil while gradually increasing the temperature inside the
kiln, tests started at 42.6 Deg C and over a period of about 15 minuets the temperature rose to 300 Deg C, i was looking for a change in amplitude of the scoped coil.

The average pk-pk reading started at 6.25mv with some noise, this value gradually rose to 6.41mv at 296 Deg C
I stopped at 300 Deg C and did not see a fall off of amplitude.

The K Type probe was positioned in the centre of the core.


EDIT
Just checked the data sheet for this core and it has the temperature profile, looks like the Curie temperature of this core is about 340 Deg C.
http://www.ferroxcube.com/FerroxcubeCorporateReception/datasheet/4c65.pdf

I have run out of time for now but will try again next weekend  O0
   

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It looks like the 4C65 was a bad choice of core, it was the only one that had the type printed on it for identification.
I have just ordered a 3E5 Core, this looks like a much sharper permeability fall off at 125 Deg C and falls from a u of 20000 to 0 in about 5 Deg C span.
   

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OK i transferred my windings to the new core.
Inductance measures 269uH with 4.5 Turns primary and secondary.
I connected my 0.1Ohm resistor and drove the primary with a 10KHz signal, scoping the 0.1R i could verify this time that at 134Deg C the amplitude starting declining and vanished totally at 155 Deg C

Now i have 2 power supplies 1 is 5amp and my 2nd psu is 1 amp, i had to use the 5 amp for the supply to the heater which at 31.5 volts was drawing 5 amps, i used the 1 amp for the rising temperature test across the primary, and when the heater gets turned off for the test when the temperature falls i connect the 5amp to the primary to help see if it makes any difference.

I am sorry to say i could not see any difference in the current across the 0.1Ohm resistance at all having run upto 175 deg C and then cool to 100 Deg C many times.

The below scope shots are the same but at different timebase settings.
   
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I'm confused: are you saying that you did see a temperature effect with the 10 kHz FG oscillations and didn't see it with DC?

Also... sanity check time.

First, for the second shot it doesn't seem that "Pulse Width" trigger mode is appropriate for the signal you are displaying, especially since your screen width is only 12 x 5 ns = 60 ns, but your pulse trigger is set to trigger on a 1 us pulse width. Are there any pulses in the scoped signal that actually fit that criterion? Can't tell from the scopeshot.

Second, the Hardware Frequency Counter is reporting 263 kHz, but the noisy waveform appears to show roughly 1 full cycle during 2 horizontal divisions, or 10 ns. My calculator says this is a frequency of 100 MHz. The HWFC operates on the entire memory buffer IIRC, so perhaps you have lower frequency pulses and you are simply zoomed in to a portion. Again, can't really tell from the scopeshot.

Third, at 1 mV/div vertically, and with 1x probe, your Rigol scope is very sensitive to its own internal noise and environmental noise coming from CFL and LED light fixtures, power supplies, and etc.

So I'm not sure your scopeshots are actually showing anything useful other than noise. Especially since the first shot is using the normal slope trigger and the second shot is using the Pulse Width trigger.


Can you repeat the same test with the scope set to, say, 1 or 5 microseconds/div and using the Pulse Width trigger at 1 us width as before?
   

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I'm confused: are you saying that you did see a temperature effect with the 10 kHz FG oscillations and didn't see it with DC?
Yes that is correct, driven using a 10khz signal generator on the primary i could see the AC signal across the 0.1 disappear as the temperature hit that band stated above.

Regarding the frequency reading, there is not enough signal for it to lock on to, it was a garbage reading, yes i missed the trigger setting but have tried quiet a few timebase settings to see if any pulses could be seen up to a timebase setting of 500ms, i also tried different trigger settings to see if i was missing anything, no change was seen at all during the temperature rise with 1 amp and the temperature fall with 5 amps.

I am guessing that the temperature rise and fall is too slow, maybe if the curie temperature was instantaneously reached then maybe there would be a sharp current increase in the resistor, yes i zoomed down to 1mv/ div to see the noise because there were no signs of any pulse higher than that level.
   
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The only strange thing i would say is that in the first scope shot, it can be been seen that the noise is DC offset to the negative side of the scopes zero line, maybe i need to check the scope calibration.

It may also be worth switching to a 1 ohm resistor instead of a 0.1R resistor to increase the signal level above the noise floor of the scope.
« Last Edit: 2017-09-03, 09:22:49 by Peterae »
   

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Only just got back from several days away for wife to attend grandson's passing out parade, not military but police. 

Peter, can you please tell me what your power supplies are.  Are they typical bench PSU's which can be voltage and current controlled?  If they are, then when used as a current source I think they are still low impedance voltage sources, it is just that their voltage controller uses output current as the reference for voltage control.  Is it possible to drive current through a high resistance into the primary and look for a voltage change as the temperature goes through the Curie point?  However I suspect that you are right about the temperature rise and fall being too slow to yield anything meaningful.  Are you able to quote a thermal time constant figure, i.e. an idea of maximum rate of change of temperature for the core in your experiment?  If this scheme is to go anywhere it could probably require an array of micro-miniature cores each with appropriate heating/cooling channels to get the thermal time constants fast enough for it to work.  Anyway thanks for doing this work.
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Hi Smudge
The power supply can be constant voltage or constant current set, the 1amp supply is actually adjustable between 0-100V so as it is feeding a short the voltage is very small before it maxs out on the current.

I have 2 videos i made today, one showing the sine wave going through the curie point and the other with a 1 Amp constant current, trouble is i was unable to log into my youtube account to upload them, my mobile number changed as well, been ages since uploading anything, so i am currently in account recovery which can take days, i will upload as soon as is possible and post here.
As the core goes through the curie point the sine wave goes triangular.

The thermal time constant can be then calculated from the timestamp on the video.

   

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First video of Sinewave driven core as it approaches and goes through the curie point.
https://youtu.be/wHDRECEzCgw
2nd video link but still has over 1 hour to upload yet
https://youtu.be/KdDS05MhB5w

PS i did try a few times to of different trigger settings after making the video just in case something was missed.
I will try your resistor idea when u get a chance
« Last Edit: 2017-09-05, 22:08:39 by Peterae »
   

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That's interesting, it goes from ferromagnetic to non-ferromagnetic over just a couple of seconds and over just a couple of degrees.  I think there is the chance to do something more with that relatively fast change.
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Amazing Peter,  thanks for showing.

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Thanks Itsu

Yes Smudge it was faster than i thought it would be, if more heat could be applied then the speed could probably be increased.

I maybe able to make a ring of fire clay for the core and place another heater in the other kiln half and sandwich the core top and bottom with heat.

PS i have added the 2nd video link but it says still over 1 hour to finish uploading, there is nothing to see in the 2nd video  :( in that nothing happens.

The temperature reading in the video is probably inaccurate because the probe bead is buried under insulation of the wire.
   

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Actually another way round this heating problem is to have as many turns of Nichrome wire wound round the core and use that as the heater with maybe 5 turns of copper enamelled wire wound round it as well.

The Nichrome wire would also be the DC bias winding and would need to be probably 10's of amps with such a short length of nichrome wire, this way we get even heating and a large DC bias current.
   

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Using your inductance measurement of 269uH and the fact that this goes down to almost zero over 2 seconds we get a rate of change of inductance dL/dt=1.35x10-4 Henries per second.  Then since V=-i*dL/dt with 1 amp you should see a 2 second voltage pulse of 135uV.  Worth a try using your 100V supply fed through a 100 ohm resistor.  Might need your scope set to DC though as its AC coupling might lose that 2 second pulse.
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As a matter of interest, if you had superconducting wire the only energy input to your 270uH inductor at 1 amp would be its 1/2Li2 of 135 micro Joules.  If your coil held the flux constant while the inductance reduced, the current would increase by a factor of 2000 (the core mu).  The 1/2Li2 energy now stored in the lower value (air cored) inductor would be 0.27 Joules.  That's an apparent COP of 2000, but what is not known is what will be the energy effect on the heat input/output/storage.
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