OverUnity Research

All,

8 times 'Faraday' electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply

On July 30, 2014, Stefan Hartman at 'overunity.com' started a thread he named:
Overunity electrolysis - 31 times more effective gas production than with DC

In my first post there (pasted below, slightly edited), I pointed out that the thread's title is misleading since the 'gain' is only 8 times 'Faraday' and I explained why.

"Hi Stefan & all others,

Please note that the title of this thread is misleading!

It is "only" 8 times 'Faraday'!

I received that Indian article on the 23rd of June, (5 weeks ago) from a friend in Germany.
Since then I have made a VERY thorough, in-debt analysis and extensive research into this method.

I have already designed a drive circuit but at this point in time it looks as if you cannot BUY, BEG, STEAL or BORROW a single SITh!  (Static Induction Thyristor)

I have e-mailed one of the Indian article authors TWICE, NGK Insulators in Japan once,
(I also contacted the Australian agent for NGK Insutators two days ago), China's Trade Commerce for names of manufacturers of SITh, etc., etc.

Needless to say, NO replies from ANY of them!

The method is REAL but some of the details may not be clear.

I have already written a detailed report and was about to publish it all when I discovered this thread.

IF you guys are interested, please read the attached document I named: "Nano-pulse electrolysis"

I have also attached the Patent which EXPLAINS very well how this method works!

To some, like 'MarkE', for example, I have this advise:

Please do some STUDY on "Static Induction Thyristors" and on IES (Inductive Energy Storage) as well as the difference between Inductive and Capacitive energy storage before you make further comments showing off your ignorance!!

To be blunt, you don't have a bloody clue HOW this method works!

One way or the other, I will get to the bottom of this in (hopefully) record time!

I may also be able to substitute the SITh with some other device (like a MOSFET).

More on all this later.....

Cheers,
Les Banki "

I wish to point out that my intention is NOT to entertain you by starting this thread!
Nor is it for starting endless arguments and abuse (see 'overunity.com' thread) or never ending "theorising"!

You should all know that I don't play games and I take this subject seriously.
I know there are several electronics engineers on this Forum but note that there is more to this than just electronics.
Practical experience with electrolysis is also required to understand the nano-pulse method.

As far as I am concerned, there is only ONE remaining problem to be solved to make this work.

Basically, there are two options:

a.  Try to get some Static Induction Thyristors (SITh)

If unavailable (due to high level suppression or whatever!),

b.  Substitute the SITh with some other device, for example a MOSFET.

This is where electronics expertise comes in!

All we need is a fast 'opening switch' which can produce pulses in the nano second (200 ns) range, withstand a fairly high voltage and can handle a few Amps of current.
Perhaps some additional components as well (and how they need to be arranged), as required.

I have attached a few articles directly related to this topic.
Those who are interested in this subject should READ them BEFORE making ANY comments!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Hi Les,

In my past life I had reason to create 200 nS pulses from low voltage DC using thyristors that were incapable of yielding the fast rise times needed.  The solution involved the use of satureable reactors to sharpen up the leading edge.  This technology is readily available and I would be happy to pass on my knowledge and experience to you.  As a matter of interest the DC supply was 30 V and the pulses were for a radar transmitter in the kilovolt and kilowatt range.

Smudge

Hi Les

You know this is right up my street, you have seen what can be done, but it is not only the nano pulses, there are other things involved.

What is needed is very sharp high voltage, the current is not really important at this point. I have found that simple inductive flyback works, not only me but others too.

Using something like an IRF840 mosfet which will work quite happily in the Mhz area and at reasonable input voltages, 240v, driving a flyback arrangement with output half rectified, you can charge up aligned water clusters in distilled water, to the point of violent breakdown.

It is that violent breakdown where the current is created, 100's of amps, which your input does not see, but the water molecule does.

This can only be effectively done by creating organised water clusters (water capacitors in a chain, series linked). The very high voltage is needed to charge each capacitor to it's breakdown point very quickly.

There is still a lot of work to be done on water clusters, and it is this area of research that those who want to condem this system, will say that water clusters have not been proven, I say BS to them, the first to have found them, but not called water clusters, was Puharich, you only have to look at his patent to see the cluster drawing.

Puharich was copied by Meyer to a certain extent, his original papers were full of Puharich work, the main difference was the frequency of working, the end result was the same.

Now to make the system work as should be, there has to be two frequencies, one is for the nano pulses for charging, and the other is for creating the organised water clusters ( which are effective water capacitors in distilled water), both Puharich and Meyer used amplitude modulation for their two frequencies.

OK for those HAM's out there, I am a HAM, the modulator is variable in AM O0  that was the step charge :P

Now the third person who has done this separated the frequencies, one doing the high voltage charge and the other for water cluster organising. A 6 times frequency split seemed to enhance the efficiency due to hitting an infinite number of heterodyned mixes, but will work also at other frequencies albeit at a reduced efficiency.

More to come when I have time

regards

Mike 8)

Quote from: Smudge on 2014.08.10, 11:17:36
Hi Les,

In my past life I had reason to create 200 nS pulses from low voltage DC using thyristors that were incapable of yielding the fast rise times needed.  The solution involved the use of satureable reactors to sharpen up the leading edge.  This technology is readily available and I would be happy to pass on my knowledge and experience to you.  As a matter of interest the DC supply was 30 V and the pulses were for a radar transmitter in the kilovolt and kilowatt range.

Smudge

I would be very happy to see some of your designs in this area. Those of us that have explored the TPU to a great detail have looked into saturable reactor pulse sharpening methods, so your input would find a ready and interested audience.

Thanks in advance.

Mike and Les, thanks for your input.

Regards, ION

Thanks for the input, Mike, Ion, Smudge, Les.

Quote: 8 times Faraday electrolysis

-- where are the experimental measurement(s) showing this?
-- is there any replication yet?

Thanks.

Guys,

Thanks for all your inputs.

Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.08.10, 14:44:59
Thanks for the input, Mike, Ion, Smudge, Les.
-- where are the experimental measurement(s) showing this?
-- is there any replication yet?

Thanks.

Hi Steven,

Yes, there is.
Please read the Indian article.  It is all there.

In chronological order:

Japanese team discovered/invented nano-pulse method, published article in 2005-2006.
Russian team analyzed pulse behavior in various electrolyte concentrations, 2011.
Next, in 2012 the Indian article was published with results.

Mike,

Thanks for your input.
As you pointed out, I am already aware of what you are doing.
However, IMO, whatever your set-up is at present, it cannot be compared to the STUNNING simplicity of the published nano-pulse method.
Sure, your gas production may be a lot higher but hey, 8 times 'Faraday' will do very nicely (for now) with a minimal cost and unbeatable SIMPLICITY!

Yes, I am familiar with Puharich' work many, many years ago.  Same goes for Stanley Meyer.

All those experimenters who never managed to run their engine on HydrOxy only, will now have a chance to have them running with this method!

As for me, you already know that I have a COMPLETE design for a fully automatic Water Fueled Generator, using a quite ordinary (but high efficiency) series cell electrolyser.
I published it several months ago so it is in PUBLIC domain.  FREE.
Yes, it needs around 2kW to run the 7kW generator with full load but so what?
But yes, it will be nice to reduce the power input to below 100W!!

So, as you can see, I am not exactly 'stuck', only looking for improvements'!

Smudge,

Thank you for your kind offer.
I have read a few of your posts on the other Forum and I have also downloaded some of your excellent work!

Since there are others here who are also interested in what you have to offer, perhaps you could post it all here?

Or, in case you wish to have a more personal contact, here is my email address: lbanki at bigpond dot com (fix the address)

Same goes for all you guys here.....


Best regards to all,
Les Banki

QuoteAll we need is a fast 'opening switch' which can produce pulses in the nano second (200 ns) range, withstand a fairly high voltage and can handle a few Amps of current.

JDO300's SSRBs and PC based controller perform beyond this.

Thanks Les for providing all of the technical resource
materials.  It would seem that the "secret" of Stanley
Meyer's system is the very short pulse width and not the
high voltage of the pulses as many had believed.

It is revealing that the optimum pulse amplitude is
about 7.9 Volts. 

Les,

I have been scouring engineering documents looking for a combination of alternate components that are widely available in hopes of finding a substitution for the SIThy.  Any leads you may have come across I can follow?

The only SIThy part number I have even found is a RS1600PA40T1 by NGK Insulators Ltd, which looks to have specs considerably outside our intended use.

BTW, I have circuit boards ordered for what I'm calling my Universal Switch (IGBT based, bi-directional, high-speed, isolated); once those are in my hands I can test them against my pulse generator and see if I can do a pulse under 200ns, but I tend to doubt it even though I chose some of the best components I could find.  I truly think I would need a modification that has dual series drives with a controlled overlap--some mechanism where I have one semiconductor on and the other off then initiate the off pulse prior to the on pulse in such a manner to get a sharp blip of a pulse in between the two transitions.  Still working out all the propagation delays.  Even this may not elicit the needed fall time, but it's worth a shot until the scope says otherwise.

It should be quite easy to construct the nano-pulse
circuit with MOSFETs and good high speed Driver Chips.

By use of the Static Induction Thyristor the circuit is
about as simple as it can be made, but the same or
better performance should be attainable with other
techniques.

Attached is document explaining Static Induction
Transistors.

Page 4 of the research paper (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2578.0;attach=14628) has a statement which
is puzzling.  See attachment below.

The 100 MHz surely cannot be the pulse frequency.

Quote from: Dumped on 2014.08.12, 03:15:55

It is revealing that the optimum pulse amplitude is
about 7.9 Volts. 

Dumped,

Yes and also look at Fig.7 in the Indian article (oscilloscope screen image) Trace 1 (Blue) which indicates about 7.5V

Quote from: Dumped on 2014.08.12, 05:02:45
It should be quite easy to construct the nano-pulse
circuit with MOSFETs and good high speed Driver Chips.

By use of the Static Induction Thyristor the circuit is
about as simple as it can be made, but the same or
better performance should be attainable with other
techniques.

Attached is document explaining Static Induction
Transistors.

Page 4 of the research paper (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2578.0;attach=14628) has a statement which
is puzzling.  See attachment below.

The 100 MHz surely cannot be the pulse frequency.

My sentiments EXACTLY.

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.08.12, 03:47:52
Les,

I have been scouring engineering documents looking for a combination of alternate components that are widely available in hopes of finding a substitution for the SIThy.  Any leads you may have come across I can follow?

The only SIThy part number I have even found is a RS1600PA40T1 by NGK Insulators Ltd, which looks to have specs considerably outside our intended use.

BTW, I have circuit boards ordered for what I'm calling my Universal Switch (IGBT based, bi-directional, high-speed, isolated); once those are in my hands I can test them against my pulse generator and see if I can do a pulse under 200ns, but I tend to doubt it even though I chose some of the best components I could find.  I truly think I would need a modification that has dual series drives with a controlled overlap--some mechanism where I have one semiconductor on and the other off then initiate the off pulse prior to the on pulse in such a manner to get a sharp blip of a pulse in between the two transitions.  Still working out all the propagation delays.  Even this may not elicit the needed fall time, but it's worth a shot until the scope says otherwise.

Matt,

Generating short pulses is simple, easy and CHEAP.
Just look at my circuit diagram.  Set it up on a breadboard and you will see.

The mosfet driver ensures FAST rise/fall times and the pulses are clean and square.

If you want even shorter pulses, there are methods to generate them even in the ps range!

As for the SITh, I have just about exhausted all avenues!
I am still waiting for a response from Mr Naohiro Shimizu himself (yes, the one who developed the SITh for NGK Insulators!)
I am seriously suspecting "foul play"!!  >:-)

Cheers,
Les Banki

Here is the circuit for a 200 nS pulse generator, based on a classical pulse radar modulator.  The energy is stored in a pulse forming network (PFN) that is really a lumped constant delay line.  The time delay is 100 nS yielding a pulse width when discharged through the load of 200 nS.  The number of elements determines the squareness of the pulse.  Impedance of the line is matched to the load impedance.  The PFN is charged resonantly (when the SCR switches off) via L1 to reach twice the supply voltage.  L1 is chosen to do this in less than the pulse interval then D1 holds the PFN at that voltage waiting for the next trigger to come along.  D2 prevents the charging current from passing through the load.  When the SCR is triggered the PFN voltage appears across the satureable inductor L2 and little current flows until L2 saturates.  Then the PFN discharges into the load.  L2 may be omitted if the SCR has a sufficiently good turn-on time (I am going back to the 1960's here when this design originated  :).  I guess things have got better since then and there now are a wide choice of semiconductor switches  :-\).  I can work up values for components when I know the full requirements such as load impedance, pulse repetition rate and so on.

Smudge

Quote from: Dumped on 2014.08.12, 05:02:45
The 100 MHz surely cannot be the pulse frequency.

At a duty cycle of 99.9%, wouldn't a 200ns pulse limit the frequency to about 5MHz?

What I see on the scope shot is 100 Mega Samples per Second--not necessarily 100MHz.  Notice 200ns/division is the time base reference.


I also sent an email out to Dharmaraj C. H. <h2dharmaraj@gmail.com> inquiring about sourcing the SIThy component used in his research.  Nothing as yet.


Let me also get clarification on the 7.5 volts.  Is that per cell segment?  So a stack of 100 series cells would need approximately 750 volts?  I think the IGBTs I used can easily do that.

How about the inductor then in the IES circuit?  Is that needed to obtain the effect?  Can it be an air core winding, or would a ferrite core be better?

@Smudge,

A fellow by the name of Ronnie Walker has investigated the Stan Meyer water fuel cell for several years now and has concluded the whole secret to it is the pulse forming network.  He has confirmed the Voltage Intensifier Circuit (VIC) is simply just a tuned PFN.  Apparently, he is able to make a fair quantity of HydrOxy gas using minimal power.  I'll look forward to seeing his final setup, hopefully within a few months.

Quote from: Matt Watts
He has confirmed the Voltage Intensifier Circuit (VIC) is simply just a tuned PFN.

This makes much more sense now.  Naming it in such a way that its true
purpose is "masked" thereby assuring that most replicators will get hung
up on producing a high voltage spike served well to protect his (Stan Meyer's)
discovery.

The "secret" of very narrow pulses and how electrolyte solutions (or even
pure water) respond to them in order to "restrict" current flow is now
solved.  I suspect Electro-Chemists knew this response for a very long time.

Finding the proper combination of pulse frequency and modulating
waveshape should be straight-forward.

Double checking what Les posted in his attachment (not that he needs it), I wanted to take another look at the Indian research.

Quote from: Economical hydrogen production by electrolysis using nano pulsed DC
The maximum hydrogen output of 0.58 mL/Sec obtained at 18 watts.

... and the input power required is only 0.57 Watts for the same hydrogen output by the conventional DC
electrolysis.

Now the quick-n-dirty estimate I use for all my brute force series plate cells is something close to 220 watts per LpM--smaller is better.  Think I recall 129 watts per LpM is the Faraday wall.

So check me here, lets run their numbers:
18 watts per 0.58 mLpS
18 watts per 34.8 mLpM
18 watts per 0.0348 LpM
517 watts per LpM

Pretty poor if you ask me.  But they do say "Hydrogen output" not HydrOxy output, so it's possible they are using a split cell that is separating the gases.

Now their pulse method:
0.57 watts per 0.0348 LpM
16 watts per LpM

So I wonder if realistically we can do less than 10 watts per LpM.

I also wonder if plate area is our main restriction to production rate.  We can't push more amperage unless we use electrolyte.  We can only increase pulse frequency to about 2 MHz and I'm sure before that the gains roll-off rather flat.

Quote from: Matt Watts
So I wonder if realistically we can do less than 10 watts per LpM?

If anyone could attain such high efficiency it would surely alter
current thinking regarding Hydrogen as a fuel!

One must wonder - has anyone anywhere had equivalent success
with nano-pulsing of an electrolyzer?  The report must have been
read by many, many experimenters so someone, somewhere, must
have given it a go.

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.08.13, 04:57:47

517 watts per LpM

Pretty poor if you ask me.  But they do say "Hydrogen output" not HydrOxy output, so it's possible they are using a split cell that is separating the gases.

Matt,

Yes, it is poor and I have already explained why.
Repeat:  Efficient DC electrolysis requires at least 20% catalyst concentration but the Indian test cells had only 0.4% concentration!

NO, they did NOT separate H and O! 
Their described cell construction could not do that!

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.08.13, 04:57:47

So I wonder if realistically we can do less than 10 watts per LpM.

MUCH less than 10W/LPM!
I am NOT at liberty say more, in case Mike (Centraflow) considers that info confidential!  :-X
If you ask him nicely, he may (or may not!) give you more details!  8)

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.08.13, 04:57:47


I also wonder if plate area is our main restriction to production rate. 

Correct.

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.08.12, 17:46:08

Let me also get clarification on the 7.5 volts.  Is that per cell segment?  So a stack of 100 series cells would need approximately 750 volts?

The nano-pulse method will NOT work with series cells for reasons which are explained in the original Japanese article!

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.08.12, 17:46:08
At a duty cycle of 99.9%, wouldn't a 200ns pulse limit the frequency to about 5MHz?

While your calculation above is correct, in practice, however, the pulse repetition rate will be restricted to about 200kHz or less.
That is because a certain amount of time MUST be allowed to reach the required current level in order to "charge" the inductor!

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.08.12, 17:46:08

I also sent an email out to Dharmaraj C. H. <h2dharmaraj@gmail.com> inquiring about sourcing the SIThy component used in his research.  Nothing as yet.

Don't hold your breath!  Several others have also emailed him but he does not have the common courtesy to reply to ANY of them!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Thank you kindly for the response Les.  Gets me up-to-speed on this technique.

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.08.14, 03:46:45
MUCH less than 10W/LPM!
I am NOT at liberty say more, in case Mike (Centraflow) considers that info confidential!  :-X
If you ask him nicely, he may (or may not!) give you more details!  8)

Mike, can you please take a peek at my PM?

So I have another idea...

What if we use rather high voltage switched through a step-down inductor/transformer to the approximate 8 volts?

Seems like I could handle enough current this way to drive some pretty large plates.

Bad idea?

Guys,

Perhaps some of you might be interested in this update:

I have received a response from NGK Insulators (Japan) a few days ago.

The one who responded is none other than Naohiro Shimizu (Dr, Eng., Senior Manager) himself!
(He is the one who developed the SITh and has expertise in pulse power electronics.)

I will not go into technical details here.
A brief (exact quote) from Mr Shimizu will have to do for now:

"I have a great interest in your applications.  In order to restart this study, I need catching up a  practical prospect of them. 
And for the development of the practical electric source, the feasibility study will be necessary.
The key for it is generating "high rising up rated" and "tailing" pulses.

Do you have a will to conduct this practical study with us? I hope to have your concrete proposal and to continue this discussion.
Thank you so much for your strong attention to our study!"

I promptly responded and I am now awaiting his answers to my questions.

That may take a while since he has downloaded my WFGP folders and he is most likely studying them now.
In addition, I also sent him my IES circuit diagram and description for his perusal and comments.

Cheers,
Les Banki

I wonder if you are about to  be robbed.

What is the agreed  basis for your cooperation?

Quote from: Paul-R on 2014.08.18, 17:00:13
I wonder if you are about to  be robbed.

What is the agreed  basis for your cooperation?

Paul-R

Considering the fact that all my designs are unconditionally FREE for everyone to use,
your comments are inappropriate and ABSURD!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Keep us posted Les.  Hopefully Dr. Shimizu will offer up something that gives us a healthy jump start--for instance him sending you a few samples for you to try in your circuit.   O0

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.08.19, 01:46:21
Paul-R

Considering the fact that all my designs are unconditionally FREE for everyone to use,
your comments are inappropriate and ABSURD!

Cheers,
Les Banki

How do you know  that they have the same attitude?
How do you know that they are not going to take out patents on aspects beyond what you are covering, i.e. the next stage? Or patents on the manufacturing of the device?

Here is some of his work:
http://patents.justia.com/inventor/naohiro-shimizu

Quote from: Paul-R on 2014.08.19, 12:31:50
How do you know  that they have the same attitude?
How do you know that they are not going to take out patents on aspects beyond what you are covering, i.e. the next stage? Or patents on the manufacturing of the device?

Here is some of his work:
http://patents.justia.com/inventor/naohiro-shimizu

Thank you for posting this.

Les I would heed this, from what I have seen I would be inclined to agree with Paul-R at this moment in time. Those patents are as good as a direct copy of my sabatier reactor using dielectric discharge plasma, I can prove the time scale, just too much of a coinsidence that he did the same in gas reforming etc, just covered up in several patents now issued :-\

regards

Mike 8)

Mike & Paul-R,

I know this post is off topic but so were yours!
Never mind.

I understand your point of view because, unfortunately, 99+% of the population of this planet thinks like you!
No offense but clearly, you guys don't understand my mindset, attitude and particularly my spiritual standing.

So let me 'brake it down' for you.

All those ideas which we all get originates from Source, the Great Intellect, Creator, God or whatever name you choose to use.

We are all ONE and thus, there is no such thing as "intellectual property".
The population of this Planet (with few exceptions) is miserable because they have been programmed to believe the opposite.

I, for one, don't care about Patents and don't have much respect for people who take out patents either!

Oh, I know that statement will not make me very popular but hey, this is not a popularity contest!

I am NOT an inventor!
NEVER pretended to be!

Yes, I take ideas from multiple sources, including Patents!
If you think that is a contradiction, just think back for a moment or two on HOW you gained your present knowledge??
Didn't you learn virtually ALL of it from others??

Folks, get used to it.
We (the entire mankind) are standing on each other's shoulders, generation after generation!

Now I am going to point out something which ALL of you have missed.
First of all, I dare say that NONE of you reading this has taken the time to go through my entire
WFGP design!

Why do you think that is important?

Simply because if you had spent the time STUDYING it, you would have seen the utter simplicity of it all.

You would have seen standard, mundane, well-known, boring electronics put together!

All along, I have tried to "hammer" that in but no-one seem to listen!

Well then, anyone is welcome to run to the Patent office and try to patent those standard, mundane, well-known, boring electronics and they will be "laughed out of the office"!!

So HOW am I going to be "robbed"?

Perhaps I should ask, what is there to "rob"?

My INTENTION is to give it away!

FREE.

Do you UNDERSTAND that?

To sum it up:
I don't play the games that the vast majority of the population plays.
What I do is NOT for monetary gain.

Nor is it just for my own use! (I am OK.)

In fact, I would find it a great honour if someone, somewhere, 'commercialise' some of the things I have put together!

So WHERE and WHAT is the problem??

All of you need to understand that the only way the general public can benefit from some of the
discoveries/inventions (like the Japanese team has published) is by large scale manufacturing!

THAT is for industry, NOT for me!

As the world 'economy' is run at present, there is nothing wrong with manufacturing and making profit.  THAT is reality today, as we know it.
Patents have their place also in that accepted reality.
If nothing else, they are recordings of ideas which you would NOT know about otherwise.

None of the above is new to those who have been reading my posts on various Forums over the years.

Finally, I like to add that I don't have to be here, or on any other forum.
I am here for ONE reason only.
I am HOPING that there are perhaps some who will listen to reason and then help others to achieve their energy independence!

Isn't that the goal of all these "free energy" Forums???

Cheers,
Les Banki

A well deserved round of applause for Les.
Too many keep their secrets, greed being one negative ends poorly...

Thanks LES!

Wise and REAL social spoke!

Maybe you know the book "Souls of Distortion" at: http://www.soulsofdistortion.nl/index.html

Its a free book, and makes pretty clear why current democracy is not working, to many one-paper people so called secure / ignorant or frozen!?

Regards, Johan

Don't get me wrong Les, just that if someone does a lot of work on something and then someone else patents it so as no one can use it, that is a problem, that was my thoughts and nothing else. Once I have 100% sorted an invention then I will open source it for all, nothing more and nothing less, just takes a long time and money to get there, it's very dishartning if this is taken and claimed as theirs for their gain.

regards

Mike 8)

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.08.20, 06:38:48


So HOW am I going to be "robbed"?

Perhaps I should ask, what is there to "rob"?

My INTENTION is to give it away!

FREE.

Do you UNDERSTAND that?

Yes.

But I am not sure you understand the concept of doughnut patenting. My guess is that you are so wrapped up with yourself that you are not going to listen to people who may have been round the block rather more times than you have.

Quote from: Paul-R on 2014.08.20, 13:20:27
Yes.

But I am not sure you understand the concept of doughnut patenting. My guess is that you are so wrapped up with yourself that you are not going to listen to people who may have been round the block rather more times than you have.

Paul-R,

This time, the MAIN reason for my response is to ALERT all readers here to be aware of WHAT is going on and WHY.

Since you just won't drop this issue, I am going to "rub it in", for the last time!

First of all, I am NOT the slightest bit interested in ANY 'patenting concepts', "doughnut" or otherwise!!

Second, I am old enough to take care of myself without "advice" from a self-appointed 'Nanny'!

Further, I can clearly see your 'agenda' here.

You have nothing of value to contribute.
On the contrary, you needed some dumb excuse to disrupt and derail the topic being discussed here
with your diversion tactics.

Just like you tried over at 'overunity.com' where I posted the Dropbox links to my project Folders!
Because you could not find a better excuse, you accused me of "hijacking" that thread, the very thread where I have posted many times before! 
Pathetic performance!

For all to see, here is that "exchange":


Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #468 on: June 21, 2014, 03:28:30 PM »

Quote
Quote from: Les Banki on June 21, 2014, 05:48:47 AM

Stefan Hartman, (the owner of this Forum) started this thread.

He presented (posted) the link to the video by Oliver & Valentin.

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***********************************
***********************************

Yes, he did. - It is about the Anton cell.

Why have you hi-jacked it?

Start your own thread. Leave this to Anton researchers.

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Les Banki
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Posts: 74



Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
« Reply #469 on: June 22, 2014, 03:38:23 AM »

Quote
Just WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM, Paul-R??

I have made it VERY CLEAR in my introductory post WHY I choose to post in this thread which has been DEAD for 2 1/2 years!

But it seems you have some problems READING and UNDERSTANDING....

You only want to ARGUE.

The Anton cell has been MENTIONED a couple of times but NOBODY has claimed that THIS thread is about the Anton cell!

In case you haven't discovered, there is a thread SPECIFICALLY for the Anton cell.

In any case, this is the LAST time I respond to your USELESS ravings!

Cheers,

Les Banki


You have also under-estimated my memory. ;D :)

For your information, I am familiar with patent laws and rules since the time I was assisting a friend with a patent application about 20 years ago.

The deliberate scare tactics started many, many years ago to try to prevent inventors publishing their ideas and results!

The simple fact remains that no-one can patent ANYTHING which has been previously published in any way prior to the application!

Nowadays, every web site (NO exceptions!) have a multitude of 'logs'!
Thus, it is dead simple to prove PRIOR PUBLICATION date!!
Once 'prior publication' is discovered, the application(s) will be instantly CANCELLED and if a patent has already been granted, it will immediately be made NULL and VOID!

In case you choose to still argue any of the above points, you are on your own and I dare say you are not very bright!

Cheers,
Les Banki

You hijacked the Anton cell thread on overunity.com. Starting your own is  easy enough. Why didn't you do that?

Find out what happens if others do some doughnut patenting (it may be called annulus rather than doughnut) before you find yourself unable to develop and expand your own inventions.

Les,

Your extreme generosity is truly appreciated.

Your reasons make perfect sense.

@les

Thank you for introducing me to this thread.  The one at overunity.com has been "hijacked".  Hope that this one would be better moderated.

Attached is the "speculation" file.  The focus is in the "Electron Cloud" distribution.  Same element such as carbon can have different crystal structures (e.g. graphite and diamond) with totally different "Electron Clouds".  Ice crystals with different shapes have different "Electron Clouds".

Browns Gas, when store in jars, loses its implosion properties.  The speculation is that its "Electron Clouds" are different from the hydrogen and oxygen gases generated in noraml electrolysis.

Electric fields can definitely affect the "Electrion Clouds".  Short DC Pulses are likely to send energy to such "Electron Clouds" and may affect them in some ways.  

Continue your brilliant research.  I shall be contacting some influential people in China.  If things work out, we may have support.

Gave a dry-run on using water as fuel.

Took about 2 hours.

Added the following new slides to focus on Electron Cloud Energy.

Hi !

I am new to this forum and therefore would like to indroduce a bit:

My name is Olaf and i do FE Research since 25 years now (with interruptions).
I build/measured/analysed: GEET,MEYL Skalarvaves, KAPANADZE, a lot MAGNET/Bedini Motors, etc.)
I am in contact with Les Banki and learned a lot from him - am building a 100ns pulse unit right now (this weekend)....

Today i just want to add a Document which may be of interest:
(short version may have been mentioned already but this one includes some numbers and details)

Cheers, Olaf

Olaf
Welcome to the forum,looking forward to your contributions .

Very interesting and exciting research . O0

thx
Chet

Are we ahead or behind the times?

http://phys.org/news/2014-08-scientists-splitter-ordinary-aaa-battery.html

Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2014.08.24, 13:32:08
Are we ahead or behind the times?

http://phys.org/news/2014-08-scientists-splitter-ordinary-aaa-battery.html

.
Who  knows? They don't quote current draw or LPM. I have asked for these.


(The Bob Boyce 101 plate system is said to  deliver 50lpm, with peak performance at 100lpm but I cannot find the current draw involved).

input measurements are hard to get sometimes

this guy isn't talking either

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC6I8iPiHT8

9000C.... knocks a photon from orbit....

Hmmmm

I think we will be learning a lot more about Hydrogen Hydroxide in the coming months.......

thx
Chet

Hi all,

i am experimenting with a circuit to produce 1 nanosecond wide pulses (with 350 picoseconds rise time) using a 2n2369 transistor and a Lt1073 dc-dc chip.
The circuit used is found in the LT1073 datasheet on page 14.

First tests shows it produces 15ns wide pulses (rise time 4ns) of about 4V in 50 Ohm.

Looking closer to the circuit shows that the LT only provides the needed 90V bias voltage, so can be omitted.
But using a barebone circuit with only the 2n2369, 3 resistors and a trimmer cap using very short leads on a ground plane pcb does not improve the situation,  we still have 15ns wide pulses and not the promised 1ns with 350ps rise time.
Is the probe/scope the limiting factor here?

When using a breadboard shows the same data, but makes it more easily to swap transistors etc.
It shows that the only transistor producing these pulses in this circuit is the 2n2369, many others show nothing, see video for transistors used.

Any idea why this 2n2369 is so special in this case?
Any suggestions for an other (better) one?

Anyway, first video here:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGdBW2NLR1Y&feature=youtu.be

Next will be to change the fixed resistors (base 10K and emitter 56 Ohm) to variable potmeters and to add more capacitance across the collector.

Regards Itsu

Itsu,

You're experimenting with an interesting type of circuit.

It's an avalanche pulse generator and as you've noted,
only certain transistors work well in this circuit.

The collector voltage rises slowly as the collector capacitor
accumulates charge through the collector resistor.  Once
the voltage rises to the transistor breakdown potential the
transistor very quickly and very briefly goes into saturated
conduction to discharge the collector capacitor.  Once the
charge is dissipated the transistor turns off and the cycle
repeats.  It's a novel form of relaxation oscillator.

The collector capacitor which produces the pulse must be quite
small as avalanche mode can be very destructive to the transistor
if the discharge current is too great.

Nanosecond Avalanche Transistor Pulse Generator (http://www.jensign.com/avalanchepulsegenerator/index.html)

Avalanche Pulse Generator (http://www.aholme.co.uk/Avalanche/Avalanche.htm)

muDped,

thanks for that, knowing the right naming (avalanche) released a wealth of information from the internet.

It seems the 1ns should be feasible.

Regards Itsu

Quote from: Itsu on 2014.08.25, 06:58:04

It seems the 1ns should be feasible.

Itsu,

Yes, it is more than feasible!

If you are interested in generating 1ns (or less) pulses, I have attached some files for you.

This method may not be as simple as the single avalanche transistor circuit you have tried but it is adjustable and is easier to control.
It will also work with MUCH cheaper ICs but with longer rise/fall times.

However, may I point out that for the application discussed in THIS thread, we don't want pulses less than 200ns wide, across the electrolysis cell.

Cheers,
Les Banki

Before seeing muDped his comments i made some changes yesterday by changing the fixed 10K and 56 Ohm resistors to variable ones.
Also the capacitor was increased from 4pf via 16pF till finally about 80pF.

The change of the 10K base resistor to a 20K pot did not do much, only at the lower end (300 Ohm) a change to lower amplitude was seen.
The change of the 56 Ohm emitter resistor to a 500 Ohm pot was more noticeable as the amplitude of the pulse went up considerable.
The change of the 4pF cap to finally 80pF made the amplitude increase even more till 36V with a pulse width of 44ns.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Wy4ef4EiI&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.08.25, 08:45:31
Itsu,

Yes, it is more than feasible!

If you are interested in generating 1ns (or less) pulses, I have attached some files for you.

This method may not be as simple as the single avalanche transistor circuit you have tried but it is adjustable and is easier to control.
It will also work with MUCH cheaper ICs but with longer rise/fall times. 

Thanks Les,  seems a nice chip to check out.

QuoteHowever, may I point out that for the application discussed in THIS thread, we don't want pulses less than 200ns wide, across the electrolysis cell.

Ok,  i got you,   i will move over/restart/continue to report my results in the DSRD pulse generator thread here:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1556.msg40782#msg40782


Regards Itsu

Quote from: Itsu on 2014.08.25, 10:15:58

Ok,  i got you,   i will move over/restart/continue to report my results in the DSRD pulse generator thread here:

Itsu,

There is no need for you to 'move' anywhere!
Instead, why don't you 'try your hand' in creating the 200ns pulses we require for this application?
My proposed circuit already works.  All is needed is the addition of an "opening switch" which can create those 200ns pulses!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Les,

Does this switch I built look like it might do the job we need?

I built two of them but still need to dust off my cell and figure out what to use as an inductor and power source.  My gut says to use rather high voltage and step down to about 8 volts while building current; still don't know if that is the right way to go and could use your input.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2594

http://vimeo.com/104149605

Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2014.08.24, 13:32:08
Are we ahead or behind the times?

http://phys.org/news/2014-08-scientists-splitter-ordinary-aaa-battery.html

I received from the professor this paper.

I updated the "water as fuel" presentation with the following two new slides.  The presentation was given to academics from Australia and China.  It aroused their interest.

Quote from: ltseung888 on 2014.09.04, 21:08:03
I updated the "water as fuel" presentation with the following two new slides.  The presentation was given to academics from Australia and China.  It aroused their interest.

Lawrence,

I know about you from WAY back and that you are trying to do good so my comments mean no disrespect....

You are wasting your time and energy with "academia".

They have had more than 50 years to study & develop water fuel technology and Brown's Gas, for example.

If you don't know or understand WHY they have done NOTHING, I dare say you are VERY naïve!

I am also tempted to say:
Where have you been for the last few DECADES??

Take for example the latest "world-shattering" news about a 1.5V battery producing a few lousy bubbles of gas in a 'pissy' little jar, while they have completely ignored all those who have been running cars and generators on water for DECADES!!

Lawrence, there is NO NEED for further "theorising", not even yours, no offence!
If you want to continue your "speculations" (your word) about water, I can recommend a book you may not be familiar with.
Note that it is sample only!  (attached)

HOW MUCH free energy do you want???
1kW?  5KW?  50KW?
What is YOUR excuse for not having it?

I (for one) have already published a COMPLETE, fully automatic Water Fueled Generator Project (WFGP) many months ago!
FREE. 
NO conditions attached.

But yes, there is a "catch":  a lot of work to make one!

It seems that some people require an endless number of "proof of concepts"!

Remember this thread?: 
http://www.overunity.com/10156/selfrunning-hho-system-with-400-watts-additional-output/PHPSESSID/a5f0110b87b0705cd32563bf2f85c6ba/

That was 3 years ago.
So what happened to THAT "proof of concept"?
Go back and find out!

I have concluded long ago that there are two possibilities:
One: there is virtually ZERO interest in this technology.
(Apart from a few "odd-balls", like myself!)

Two:  there are some who just get on with it but keep their mouths shut, simply because they have no desire to join Stanley Meyer and many others!

On that subject, here is a quote from my source:

"In 1998, at the OPEC conference in Venezuela, the names Stanley Meyer and Yull Brown were mentioned.
The executives "freaked out" and 3 weeks later Stanley Meyer was dead and 3 months later Yull Brown was dead."

Ironically, you can gain much more free energy by using water than by most other methods.
And as 'crude' as it may be at present, it is here, right now!

THIS thread is only about a greatly improved electrolysis method, nano-pulse power.
My point is that even without that, we can already produce free energy.

So WHAT is the problem??

Cheers,
Les Banki

Thanks for posting that pdf Les, it is something in line with my feelings on the subject.

As he has stated, water is still one of the great mysteries, it has so much energy locked inside, the trick is having a way of unlocking that energy without expending more than we use to unlock it.

Can we create more EZ areas in the same body of water? now that is a good question! I believe we can and without using too much energy to do it.

If we drop a stone in water we see the ripples coming off that stone, are the areas between those ripples EZ and "normal" water, are there created different zones? can we do this by pinging the water at a point and create the same effect? using an EM wave? more than one wave of different frequencies? The EM spectrum is huge, I don't really think the frequency matters, it may only dictate the width of the EZ area! the higher the frequency the thinner the slice.

The EZ area and the normal water area have different charges! + and - , if we have a series link then we either have a series battery or polarised capacitor, what if we can over charge that series chain?

Very fast high voltage pulses would be needed in phase with that "ripple", stretch the bond angle and rip the molecule apart, the same as over charging a cap or battery!

regards

Mike 8) 8)

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.09.05, 08:23:33
Lawrence,

I know about you from WAY back and that you are trying to do good so my comments mean no disrespect....

You are wasting your time and energy with "academia".

They have had more than 50 years to study & develop water fuel technology and Brown's Gas, for example.

If you don't know or understand WHY they have done NOTHING, I dare say you are VERY naïve!

I am also tempted to say:
Where have you been for the last few DECADES??

Take for example the latest "world-shattering" news about a 1.5V battery producing a few lousy bubbles of gas in a 'pissy' little jar, while they have completely ignored all those who have been running cars and generators on water for DECADES!!

Lawrence, there is NO NEED for further "theorising", not even yours, no offence!
If you want to continue your "speculations" (your word) about water, I can recommend a book you may not be familiar with.
Note that it is sample only!  (attached)

HOW MUCH free energy do you want???
1kW?  5KW?  50KW?
What is YOUR excuse for not having it?

I (for one) have already published a COMPLETE, fully automatic Water Fueled Generator Project (WFGP) many months ago!
FREE. 
NO conditions attached.

But yes, there is a "catch":  a lot of work to make one!

It seems that some people require an endless number of "proof of concepts"!

Remember this thread?: 
http://www.overunity.com/10156/selfrunning-hho-system-with-400-watts-additional-output/PHPSESSID/a5f0110b87b0705cd32563bf2f85c6ba/

That was 3 years ago.
So what happened to THAT "proof of concept"?
Go back and find out!

I have concluded long ago that there are two possibilities:
One: there is virtually ZERO interest in this technology.
(Apart from a few "odd-balls", like myself!)

Two:  there are some who just get on with it but keep their mouths shut, simply because they have no desire to join Stanley Meyer and many others!

On that subject, here is a quote from my source:

"In 1998, at the OPEC conference in Venezuela, the names Stanley Meyer and Yull Brown were mentioned.
The executives "freaked out" and 3 weeks later Stanley Meyer was dead and 3 months later Yull Brown was dead."

Ironically, you can gain much more free energy by using water than by most other methods.
And as 'crude' as it may be at present, it is here, right now!

THIS thread is only about a greatly improved electrolysis method, nano-pulse power.
My point is that even without that, we can already produce free energy.

So WHAT is the problem??

Cheers,
Les Banki

@Les Banki
Thanks for recommending the Book.  I read the 4 chapters and shall find the book to study the rest.
Some feedback:
1.   You are wasting your time and energy with "academia".
The first time I had serious contact with Academics was in 2006 at Tsinghua University (the MIT of China).  I used the attached "Lead-out" or "Bring-in" Energy system slide to emphasize that the if we can bring-in energy from the environment, the device is NOT an perpetual motion machine.
Three machines were revealed at that meeting.  One was the 225 HP pulse generator from USA funded by a China Group.  One was the Wang Rotating motor with water inside.  One was the electricity multiplier already known to Tsinghus University.
The Lead-out or Bring-in energy concept was well received as it could explain the workings of the three above "impossible" machines.
When I went back to Hong Kong, I was "investigated" as a spy that disclosed "national secrets" to foreigners.  I knew that I was on the right path and published much of what I know as "Divine Revelations" on the Internet.

2.   One: there is virtually ZERO interest in this technology.
(Apart from a few "odd-balls", like myself!)

Two:  there are some who just get on with it but keep their mouths shut, simply because they have no desire to join Stanley Meyer and many others!
There is continued great interest in China.  Wang got funded by the Chinese Government and State Industries.  Information is confidential and is expected to remain so until actual products are ready (and the military does not object).

3.   In my latest presentation, the academics said: "When we first received the invitation, we just laughed that it was another Perpetual Motion joke.  The single slide aroused our interest.  We shall keep watching."

On the technical side, I believe that we should focus on the "electron cloud" of water - not just the isolated water molecule but also the "water particles".

I am sure that Electrical and Magnetic fields can influence the "electron clouds".  Water is not just water! 

Divine Revealation?

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.09.05, 08:23:33
Remember this thread?: 
http://www.overunity.com/10156/selfrunning-hho-system-with-400-watts-additional-output/PHPSESSID/a5f0110b87b0705cd32563bf2f85c6ba/

Oh I sure the hell do.  Almost got a divorce over that one.

I had a brand new Briggs & Stratton 5500kW (305cc motor) hooked up to a 13LpM cell.  I did the waste spark removal mod, valve timing mod; even built a custom plasma ignition system hoping for the magic mix.

(http://sgforum.info/wordpress/wp-content/themes/striking_r/cache/images/196_GenSet-628x840.jpg)

In the end and thousands of dollars later...

There was no way on God's green earth this was ever going to loop.  At best I could get it to putt, spit, putt, putt.

When I finally sent an email to info@oxyhydrogen.de hoping for some tips and it bounced, that was the final straw and it got shelved.

So yeah, I can see why people would become disheartened.  I haven't given up, but I also know I clearly don't have all the needed knowledge to knock out a working machine in a weekend.

Les, I have looked over all your circuit schematics (thank you BTW), but what I'm missing has to be mechanical in nature.  I didn't use injectors like you did because the Oliver and Valention video didn't use them.  Everything they did in that video, I did, maybe better.  I was so freaking mad I could have thrown that 200 pounds of junk out the window and I'm no Hulk Hogan.

So what I'm getting at is that "I" personally need a teacher and a coach to get to the next level.  Teach me and I will help you by teaching others.

Sincerely,

M@

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.09.06, 01:30:46
Everything they did in that video, I did, maybe better. 

.
The essence of replication is that one should do EXACTLY what is directed.

(This does not apply to the next stage).
.

I would like to comment on:
Dr. Pollack's book recommended by Les Banki in reply 50.

Using the four principles from his conclusion
1.   Water has 4 phases
2.   Water Stores Energy
3.   Water Gets Energy from Light
4.   Like charged entities can attract one another

1.   Water has 4 phases.  The four phases are solid, Exclusive Zone (EZ), liquid and Gases.  The water molecules are structured in the EZ phase.  I would add that water should be treated as "many water particles" with different structures.  Such structures have different Electron Clouds and thus carry different amounts of energy.

2.   Water stores energy.  I would add that the different structures store different amounts of energy.  Thus water A energy can be different from water B energy at the same temperature.  Dr. Pollack's water battery experiment is convincing.

3.   Water gets energy from light.  I would like to add that water "exchanges" electromagnetic waves with the surrounding.  Different water particles (including Browns Gas) exchange such waves differently.

4.   Like charged entities can attract one another.  I would like to add that water can "store" charges similar to supercapacitors.  Different electron clouds have different amounts of energy.  These electron clouds can transform from one to another.

5.   Electron Clouds can be influenced or changed by external Electric or Magnetic fields.   Chemical compounds and chemical reactions show different chemical energies because of the different electron cloud energies.  Water with its many different water particles has similar behavior.  Mastering this will advance science to a higher level.

God Bless

Hi Matt (& others),

I am glad you raised the issue of unsuccessful attempts.

There are only 3 reasons for failure, singularly, or in combinations:

1.  Attitude
2.  Not enough HydrOxy volume and/or QUALITY (little or NO mono-atomic H and O contents)
3.  Engine management error: Incorrect Ignition timing and/or fuel delivery method.

Attitude is perhaps the hardest to explain...
Number 2 should be obvious with the exception of the QUALITY definition.

What I call "engine management" is by far the most common error – as I see it.

In your case, Matt, just because you did those mechanical modification to the engine, are you SURE
that you had the ignition timing correct?
I don't think you have.

The reason why I don't think you have is this statement: 
"At best I could get it to putt, spit, putt, putt."
That is a clear sign that either your ignition timing was NOT correct, or the fuel (gas) delivery was intermittent or fluctuating....
Remember, when everything is done correctly, engines on HyrOxy ONLY are running
'smooth as a baby's bum'!
No kidding.

By the way, what exactly cost you "thousands of dollars"??

Now, about your 'plasma' ignition.
Totally unnecessary!
HydrOxy IS the most volatile fuel and the required spark energy is a just a fraction of other fuel's!

Please read my "CDI circuit description.doc" for more details.

I cannot stress enough the importance of reading the various circuit descriptions!

Generally, I would say this to ALL who read here:

I don't care how good your understanding of electronics might be but without reading the circuit description of, say, the "Igninje5 circuit description.doc", you can 'stare at it' all day and perhaps try to analyze it without understanding WHY the circuit is arranged the way it is or HOW it works!
(If you disagree, just try it!)

For those who may only want a "proof of concept" for themselves without automatic functions, you could use only the 'power supply', 'Igninje5', 'CDI' and 'pressure regulator' circuits and simply regulate gas delivery to the engine manually.

Over the years I have covered just about everything I could think of in my writings and various Forum posts.
I simply don't have the time to re-write everything!
I know that some of the readers here will never read the documents I have written.

Thus, the only way some of that will be read if I post it here!

I will quote from one of my documents which was named "LesBankioninjection1.doc" by the late Michael Couch (watercarTWO Forum). 
It was one of my rather long posts on that Forum and he put it into a document format.


"In closing, just so you have someone else's opinion on this subject
(not just mine), I paste here a series of posts by `bolt' at
overunity.com:

Pay special attention to his last post in red text! (my emphasis)

Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
<http://www.overunit y.com/index. php?PHPSESSID= a5f0110b87b0705c d32563bf2f\
85c6ba&topic= 10156.msg268439# msg268439>
« Reply #107 on: December 27, 2010, 08:53:29 PM »

Yes its a OU system! The energy we put in is less then that provided by
other sources. Radiant Energy or water who cares. The excess is enough
where its looped. If the energy transformed only from water it doesn't
explain how the TPU and Kapanadze works when they don't need water.
Better a common factor of Radiant Energy powers all three devices.

Its funny when you show people a COP>1 system they say "its a
measurement error its not COP>1 if it is then you should be able to loop
it" Guess what? This is a looped OU device!

400 watts DC yields about COP 3 without resonance via the energy
contained within the HHO mix as its recombined within a spark. See
Atomic Hydrogen Torches and as much as COP 12 with 3 phase resonance
systems. So 3 * 400 = 1200 watts nett effective including RE. The are
two things we know are instant energy debts here. The lamp 400 watts i
think = 1200 - 400 = 800 watts and also the cell need 400 watts so i
have 400 watts to run the engine and cover the alternator losses. The
alternator is going to lose perhaps 150 watts from mechanical to
electrical so i got 250 watts left to keep the motor itself turning.
Will it loop? YES! PS if the lamp is larger then its taken from this 250
watts.

The 250 watts is left within the system and keeps the motor and
generator running overcoming the friction losses of the bearings, piston
friction and valve gear to maintain about 3000 rpm.

The system is scalable the French did this years ago on 25kw genset it
runs on pure water and provides like 10KW OU.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 09:17:50 PM by bolt »
Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
<http://www.overunit y.com/index. php?PHPSESSID= 621c232db397a8da 928d25202e\
074f99&topic= 10156.msg277260# msg277260>
« Reply #358 on: March 10, 2011, 03:00:47 PM »

* [Reply with quote] Quote
<http://www.overunit y.com/index. php?PHPSESSID= 621c232db397a8da 928d25202e\
074f99&action= post;quote= 277260;topic= 10156.345; num_replies= 393;a54853b2\
=96ff94d7b6955dcb6c e63b8b36eb506d>

When HHO is ignited under great pressure like 150-200 PSI with ICE the
power is greatly magnified. Like when you trap HHO in a container then
ignite it the explosion almost takes your roof off! Anyone that tries to
store any amount of HHO in containers at pressures over 7 PSI has just
made a lethal weapon particularly where its raised to pressure like 100
PSI its highly unstable and will try at any time to convert all that
energy back to water.

HHO recombination is an electron migration process where water is used
as a Zero Point Energy proxy. So the water is not actually the fuel even
though it will consume water. For all practical purpose who cares it
uses water? As HHO burns thru metals and raises to thousands of degrees
the process has been measured as OU as electrons are accelerated at huge
speeds form kinetic energy bombards the adjacent molecules in the
material being heated and the temperature is raised several magnitudes
hotter than the HHO flame itself. The process is improved higher by
high voltage spark at flame point as within Atomic Welding. High voltage
spark adds abundance of free electrons. See early 1900's books already
recognised this process as OU.

For HHO heaters use rock ore materials with high crystal content not
metal. As crystal excited by extreme heat the crystals are energised
release more and more high speed electrons as piezoelectric effect into
adjacent material heating >3000 degrees. The process goes OU. Special
cut rock is then built up around the heat chamber to make a HHO core
reactor. Then conventional fire bricks cover the stack to make a 300
degree IR radiant heater. Several patents on this already.

Typically the HHO yields a COP 3 within ICE when all the other
parameters have been perfected for engine timing etc.

So if you put 1000 watts into your cell you have 3000 watts of energy
within the engine. Take off 1000 you need to give back to keep the cell
going plus engine losses, friction and alternator conversion loss etc so
total you need to give back 2000 watts of this energy. Now you have 1000
watts OU available to run a load. You can see by making engine super
efficient you have 1000 watts here which can be recovered rather then
giving it back as losses so as the process is refined you get over 1000
watts OU.

Now you can see without any PWM driving and special tuning already the
process has a COP 3. By using PWM high frequency drives, ultrasonic
water fog injection, resonance tuned alternator, the COP can easily
exceed 5 even higher.

So if you perfected everything and used PWM etc reaching a COP of 10
within a car engine is not impossible in fact its very achievable as
others have done this already. You need a 5kW cell to get 50kW out the
engine running only HHO and nothing else. Perfect for a small car.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 03:38:05 PM by bolt »

Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
<http://www.overunit y.com/index. php?PHPSESSID= 621c232db397a8da 928d25202e\
074f99&topic= 10156.msg275426# msg275426>
« Reply #348 on: February 21, 2011, 12:02:45 AM »

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I find it VERY strange how one of the most exciting disclosures of
recent times witnessing a gasoline engine running on water and
generating 400w has the quietest thread? Maybe its a mental block or a
spell cast over mankind where there are more thrills within under unity
1 watt TOYS or perhaps Sports TV in HD has been good lately?
Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
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« Reply #375 on: March 11, 2011, 12:18:57 AM »

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You don't have to make advanced PWM's to test this engine. DC is good
enough already COP 3 via ICE so if you tune everything correctly it will
work from the get go. Even if you are very sloppy and use all of the COP
3 to keep the engine running with nothing left for a load it makes a
nice OU water powered heater:)

While Les has covered all the dots and crossed the t's IMO is terribly
complex for DIY replication. It looks like a 1980's TV circuit LOL

You can do everything required using an AVR micro which only cost about
15 bucks. Then you add a hall sensor to pin 2, one power fet to pin 5
via a driver and a car ignition coil and you are good to go.
Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
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« Reply #386 on: March 13, 2011, 06:07:43 PM »

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True this is not anything fancy like a bob Boyce system. HHO production
tweaks can be done later but already the system has a COP 3 with basic
DC control of the cell.

The logic here is just like a car engine ECU which controls the start
sequence and sets the correct timing. While it can be done using gears
and cogs its not very elegant and still has no control over engine speed
so might as well do everything at the same time using a processor. Once
you have proper control over gas production and the timing you got
proper control over the engine.

Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output
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« Reply #383 on: March 12, 2011, 05:16:21 PM »

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Quote

Bolt, are you planning on raising the compression ratio on your motor?

No its unnecessary and risk of engine damage.

Quote

On the Woodpecker video a flashback device is very close to the motor
inlet and the HHO is piped straight in.
http://www.youtube. com/user/ woodpecker1311# p/a/u/1/kTFVW8w8 bjI
<http://www.youtube. com/user/ woodpecker1311# p/a/u/1/kTFVW8w8 bjI>
Also on that video when the HHO is removed the engine continues to run
and surge. I suspect there is still some hydrocarbon vapors remaining?

You wont get rid of carbon vapours its a 4 stroke engine and therefore
it is lubricated by oil and will show very tiny amounts in exhaust BUT
its not the source of fuel.

Quote

On the Scarecrow videos from 2008 a 3.5 hp generator is shown running on
HHO with many flashback booms during start up. On the final and
postmortem videos he mentions 6 LPM @ 1000 watts was required for idle
and 9 LPM @ 2000 watts was required to run at full speed with a small
load. He did not make any timing or compression changes.
http://www.youtube. com/user/ SmartScarecrow# p/c/C547458B2E91 4426/1/APpGvV\
WsZZ8
<http://www.youtube. com/user/ SmartScarecrow# p/c/C547458B2E91 4426/1/APpGv\
VWsZZ8>

I hope you are wearing ear protection in your tests. From watching the
available videos it looks like starting the engine on gasoline to get
the engine temperature up quickly could make for a smoother transition.

Best of luck,
RD

if you don't change the timing the engine runs like a pig, back fires,
can bend valves and can burn hole in piston. Plus it requires a HUGE
amount of gas just to barely run. When properly tuned and blank spark
sorted all these issues vanish. Thanks for your input!

« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 05:52:49 PM by bolt »

Cheers,
Les Banki

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.09.07, 04:40:24
Hi Matt (& others),

I am glad you raised the issue of unsuccessful attempts.

There are only 3 reasons for failure, singularly, or in combinations:

1.  Attitude
2.  Not enough HydrOxy volume and/or QUALITY (little or NO mono-atomic H and O contents)
3.  Engine management error: Incorrect Ignition timing and/or fuel delivery method.

Attitude is perhaps the hardest to explain...
Number 2 should be obvious with the exception of the QUALITY definition.

What I call "engine management" is by far the most common error – as I see it.

In your case, Matt, just because you did those mechanical modification to the engine, are you SURE
that you had the ignition timing correct?
I don't think you have.

The reason why I don't think you have is this statement: 
"At best I could get it to putt, spit, putt, putt."
That is a clear sign that either your ignition timing was NOT correct, or the fuel (gas) delivery was intermittent or fluctuating....
Remember, when everything is done correctly, engines on HyrOxy ONLY are running
'smooth as a baby's bum'!
No kidding.

By the way, what exactly cost you "thousands of dollars"??

Now, about your 'plasma' ignition.
Totally unnecessary!
HydrOxy IS the most volatile fuel and the required spark energy is a just a fraction of other fuel's!

Number 1, attitude:

At the start I had it, a good one.  I overcame every obstacle that cropped up.  Towards the end, very disappointed.  I felt I had been taken to the cleaners.  Since then, I have pulled my head out of my ass and reconciled my lack of knowledge and experience.  I'm game again to make this work, whatever it takes.


Number 2, HydrOxy fuel:

I used this particular cell, which I might add is nearly 1000 dead presidents right up front:
http://www.greenfuelh2o.com/118_plate_hho_generator_p/118p230v.htm

It makes a LOT of gas.  Still have it in operation for my HydrOxy torch which is a fantastic shop tool by the way.  I can't speak for the quality of the gas though--still don't know enough to recognize the signs.  My tests all showed it to produce at a rate of 212 watts per LpM, which seems quite respectable.  I never had any sort of overheating problem with it.


Number 3, EMS:

First lets start with ignition.  I used a gear drive system off the shaft of the generator to emulate the internal camshaft gearing.  Waste spark eliminated.  I then added a micrometer adjustment with a hall effect sensor to allow timing adjustments in half degree increments, 15 degrees each way of TDC.  The only place the engine would even attempt to run was at approximately 8 degrees after TDC.  The hall effect sensor triggered a Mallory 6A Hyfire CDI system connected to a Mallory Promaster coil (output nearly 50kV).  This is also a multi-spark system below 6000 RPM.  I verified this setup with a timing light and the spark was SPOT ON and very stable.

Second part of this is fuel delivery and probably where I made a grave error as I think everything else I did was more than sufficient for an engine to run on water.  Here I completely removed the carb and built a manifold plate bolted directly onto the engine that had two ports, one for the HydrOxy gas and the other for air.  The HydrOxy was directly injected aft of a flashback suppressor, aft of my bubbler.  The other port had a micrometer needle valve for air intake.  My suspicion is the needle valve never let in enough air to dilute the HydrOxy to a ratio where efficient combustion could be maintained.  My thinking at the time was just the opposite--not getting enough HydrOxy.  So I likely went the wrong way with timing as well.
Based on the video though, I thought what I did matched pretty close.

So if my hunch is correct and I screwed up on the fuel delivery, how would I go about making the equivalent of a HydrOxy carburetor?  What means does the average mechanic have of building such a device that will meter the proper amounts of air and fuel into the engine?


I really want to nail this thing once and for all Les.  I currently have an RV with a nice Onan generator that has a gasoline fuel delivery clog somewhere in the fuel tank.  I'd like nothing better than to snip that fuel line off and run the genset on water.  You know it can be done and I'm listening and will make it happen this go-around.  All I need is the missing piece.

Guys ages ago i designed a digital monostable, set the delay time in nS using dip switches, the delay chip i use comes in different flavours, 250ps,500pS,1nS,2nS, 5nS per binary digit

If you want a 200nS wide pulse then you set 200nS in binary on the switches.

My board uses 2 chips, 1 for phase and 1 for pulse width because i have been phase delaying 2 pulses hence the need for 2 chips.

I can easily re design using 1 chip, add a fet driver and fet with an oscillator, i am willing to make PCBs and sent them out free if this gets you all going on this device.

or

If you want to use your own output stage i can design the digital mono as a plug in board, feed it with a frequency and it will output a pulse width that has been set with the switches, if a 1nS chip is used you would get 0-255 nS adjustable pulse width, i could also cascade 2 chips giving 0-512nS

Entirely up to you guys, let me know and i will send you pcbs  O0

Here's my built version circuit
(http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=217.0;attach=1209)

or if someone has a circuit design already, i am willing to cad this up, get some PCBs made and shipped to you all for free  O0

Lets get this rolling, at least then some experimentation can be done with a variable width pulse.

OK i have been thinking about this some more, i have realized a variable 0-512nS adjustable monostable with LED 7 seg display and thumb encoder switch for adjustment would be a very handy device for a lot of things, so i will start another thread in my work bench and start designing one, we can go from there.

[quote author=Matt Watts link=topic=2578.msg41370#msg41370 date

So if my hunch is correct and I screwed up on the fuel delivery, how would I go about making the equivalent of a HydrOxy carburetor?  What means does the average mechanic have of building such a device that will meter the proper amounts of air and fuel

[/quote]

Dear Matt.

As you are aware I have spent many years playing with Vintage Gas (  Town Gas. ) engines. Town gas was predominantly Hydrogen with a few other gasses thrown in !  :)

Air is the key! It is the Nitrogen that is expanded that does the work. If I understood your post correctly you were restricting your air supply.

I have to agree with Les, this mixture needs only the slightest of sparks to blow!! From memory any ratio of 7 to 70 % will work!!

I have attached a photo of the Carburettor from one of the most common vintage engines on the UK Rally field, the Lister D type. The air intake has a simple valve that opens on the suction stroke. This valve creates just the right amount of vacuum to draw the fuel but then allows the necessary air to pass into the cylinder.

You could soon make a device like this !! You could also study one of your own countries super little engines the Fairbanks,Morse "Z" type, this engine also uses the same type of principle.

I am in the throws of acquiring a 4 cylinder LC 3 KW war time genset. This engine has a proper spark distributor driven from the camshaft, timing should be a doddle so I will be joining you guys in the quest for power from water.

Cheers Graham. 

Graham
Will these work ?

I certainly hope so

Chet

Hey Chet.

WOW, you brought back some good memories !!

I had a 3 HP F-M for many years !! They are Petrol/Paraffin  (Gasoline/Kerosene) engines, the small chamber with the lid on the carb was where you put a small quantity of Petrol to start and after a few minutes you opened up the right hand control valve to run on the main tank of Paraffin. You can clearly see the spring loaded air valve at the front of the carburettor.

For Hydrogen running you will have to retime the Magneto, just after TDC. ATM they will have nearly 15/20 deg advance as Paraffin is such a slow burning fuel.  You might even find a water injector on the 6 HP engine as this helped to reduce pre ignition knock (Pinking) on the larger Paraffin engines.

What I did like was to see them in almost complete state. Original muffler!!  Never found on engines here in the UK !! Oh you will need to find the Cylinder lubricators (Sight Feed), your neighbour may have removed them for safe keeping.  ;)

You lucky ********.   :)

Cheers Graham.

Quote from: Peterae on 2014.09.07, 07:29:27
Lets get this rolling, at least then some experimentation can be done with a variable width pulse.

I agree Peter, with one caveat.

Les is adamant we can loop a genset without nano-pulse, so I think we should do this part first.  That gives us a base platform to improve on.  I'm pretty much convinced if we have the proper injector for fuel delivery, we are all set.  Les already worked out the electronics needed for this part.  I would like to know if a high speed solenoid valve like this one can do the job:
http://content2.smcetech.com/pdf/SX10.pdf

I would also like to see if we can eliminate some electronics by using or building something similar to the mechanical Lister D aspirated intake Graham posted.

IMHO, if a half dozen of us can get to where Les already is, the next step can be worked out rather quickly.  Hopefully everybody sees my point here, if we don't already have running gensets, a nano-pulse electrolyzer isn't going to add much value.  With running gensets however, every watt we no longer have to dump into the electrolyzer is power that can go straight to our loads.  That's where we see the big win.

Just for laughs !!

We have resurrected my 12 tube electrolyser and quickly coupled it to my 1890's Leek No 3  atmospheric engine, and........... BANG now I know why you need a bubbler !!   ;D

Got a full revolution though !!

Cheers Graham.

Received some comments.

The Pulse or Resonance generation of HHO gas mixture may be different from traditional electrolysis.  The resulting gas mixture may be a "half-way" product.

Continued research worthwhile...

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.09.07, 16:49:40

Les is adamant we can loop a genset without nano-pulse, so I think we should do this part first.  That gives us a base platform to improve on.  I'm pretty much convinced if we have the proper injector for fuel delivery, we are all set.  Les already worked out the electronics needed for this part.  I would like to know if a high speed solenoid valve like this one can do the job:

IMHO, if a half dozen of us can get to where Les already is, the next step can be worked out rather quickly.  Hopefully everybody sees my point here, if we don't already have running gensets, a nano-pulse electrolyzer isn't going to add much value.  With running gensets however, every watt we no longer have to dump into the electrolyzer is power that can go straight to our loads.  That's where we see the big win.

Matt & others,

Thanks to you Matt and your comments, do I see a bit of interest here??

Yes, your comments are SPOT ON!
You know, I have long suspected that over the years, several HHO researchers had enough gas already, without realizing that they could run an engine!!
Matt, there is NO need for the high speed solenoid you referenced!

GAS injectors are being manufactured by a large number of companies all over the world!

All those who are interested in this subject should read my "Ignition system for small engines 2.doc" where
I have also stated the reasons WHY I favor fuel injection for HydrOxy as well as indicating HOW MUCH HydrOxy is needed!

I will now proceed to describe a practical experiment made by my friend Pete who is in the process of duplicating my WFGP.

While I was designing/building my semi-automatic Groove Cutting Machine (GCM) which took about 18 months, Pete got impatient and bough a ready made electrolyser from the US.
It produces only between 6 and 7 L/m of HydrOxy.

After 'playing' with the HydrOxy for a while, he got the idea to try to run his generator (same as I have) on HydrOxy ONLY, BEFORE any modifications or electronics were added!
So, with the assistance of a couple of friends, they proceeded.
They put a 2kW load on the output and off they went!
It ran a little bit 'rough' with a couple of back-fires but hey, the engine has NOT been modified in any way.
They proved the point.  It ran with only 7 liters of gas and supplied a 2kW load without problems!

Well then, what does all this tell you?

The engine's capacity is 420cc.  (7kW continuous output)
It 'sucks' in 420cc of AIR/fuel mixture.  NOTE here that the AIR intake MUST NOT be restricted!
The injector should be mounted as close as practical to the intake manifold, injecting into the AIR channel.
The AIR is 99% and the HydrOxy is about 1%.  I wrote that already 7 years ago in my "Ignition system for small engines 2.doc"!
If you feel like calculating it, go ahead!

7 liters of gas per minute is 117cc per second.
If the engine runs at 3600RPM, the fuel intake is 1800 times a minute, which is 30 times a second.
Which in turn means that you need to divide the 117cc by 30.
The result is 3.9cc for each of the 30 cycles per second, 1800 per minute.

So, as you can see, my original stipulation of 99% AIR to 1% HydrOxy seem to hold nicely!!

And yet, this is for Pete's unmodified engine!!

While I am 'at it', I may as well point out that the efficiency of the 139 cell SELF-REGULATING electrolyser we are making is WELL over the 'Faraday' limit!
Thus, with a power input of 2kW, we are expecting about 20L/m of gas and at this stage it looks as we will only need HALF of it to run the generator with full load!
In that case, it means that the electrolyser will only operate HALF the time!

For those you might be interested, I have attached 4 pictures of Pete's electrolyser "in-the-making".....
I have also attached info on one gas injector...

By the way, my WFGP files are also displayed (individually) on http://www.energy-shiftingparadigms.com/index.php/topic,2533.0.html

I hope all the above makes sense....!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.09.08, 05:09:23
Thanks to you Matt and your comments, do I see a bit of interest here??

Does a bear crap in the woods?    :)

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.09.08, 05:09:23
You know, I have long suspected that over the years, several HHO researchers had enough gas already, without realizing that they could run an engine!!

I see I made at least three critical mistakes:

• My air intake was highly restricted.
• HydrOxy quality was crap--had a big filter capacitor aft of the bridge rectifier, so the cell wasn't being pulsed at 120 cycles at all.  Though I did have a variac connected inline so my voltage was probably okay to match my cell, at least it was adjustable.
• No HydrOxy injection.

Keep throwing out hints Les and I'll read through all your documents again, there's probably something else I screwed-up, though I think those three things I just mentioned would have put me way out in left field.

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.09.08, 05:09:23
GAS injectors are being manufactured by a large number of companies all over the world!

Okay guys, Les is doing all the work here.  How about someone else finding me a source similar to the POLIAUTO JET 21 injector.  Lets make this a team effort.

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.09.08, 07:22:54
Does a bear crap in the woods?    :)

I see I made at least three critical mistakes:

• My air intake was highly restricted.
• HydrOxy quality was crap--had a big filter capacitor aft of the bridge rectifier, so the cell wasn't being pulsed at 120 cycles at all.  Though I did have a variac connected inline so my voltage was probably okay to match my cell, at least it was adjustable.
• No HydrOxy injection.

Keep throwing out hints Les and I'll read through all your documents again, there's probably something else I screwed-up, though I think those three things I just mentioned would have put me way out in left field.

Okay guys, Les is doing all the work here.  How about someone else finding me a source similar to the POLIAUTO JET 21 injector.  Lets make this a team effort.

Dear Matt.

Far too technical !!

IMO, this is a path well trodden, the ICE was around way before the use of liquid fuels, it is just the present fuel that needs to be understood and managed correctly !!

A simple method that was used widely on Gas engines was a small hole drilled into the intake valve seat. As the valve opened the gas would flow in with the air and then close again,sealed until the next intake stroke.
This method could be built into the flap intake I described yesterday.

If you want to go all technical? What about a Petrol injector taken from a scrap Fuel Injected car? There may be some issues with this as the Petrol is under pressure but some simple tests could be made to confirm it's viability.

I will endeavour, over the next few days to try and get one of my old Gas engines running on HHO, unfortunately most of them are of an age before the electric Spark Plug came into fashion !!   :)

Cheers Graham.

@Les
Over the years I have corresponded with most of the people you mention in your recent posts [from OU.com]
and will be reconnecting with some.

Is your replicator "Peter" available to assist the replicator group Here?

Can you send him My Email ?


@Graham
On this side of the Pond Gas =gasoline.....your Petrol.

I know in your above post you are not referring to gas..oline. , but Gas in its different Vapor forms [city gas etc...]

I also appreciate the point you made about old time city gas having a large  hydrogen content .

thx
Chet

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.09.08, 07:22:54
How about someone else finding me a source similar to the POLIAUTO JET 21 injector.

Two possible candidates:
http://www.qtww.com/assets/u/InjectorBrochure2.pdf
http://delphi.com/shared/pdf/ppd/pwrtrn/multec-compressed-natural-gas-injector.pdf

Maybe I could luck into an engineering sample.   :)

Quote from: Chet K on 2014.09.08, 12:14:31

Is your replicator "Peter" available to assist the replicator group Here?

Can you send him My Email ?

thx
Chet

Sorry to disappoint you Chet but the answer is NO.

I will tell you why and I ask all others here to pay attention also!

Pete is a carpenter/builder with almost no knowledge of electronics.
BUT he has a unique ATTITUDE!
By nature, he is not a 'skeptic' or a non-believer.
He never needed "convincing"!
Just like I never needed convincing 20 years ago when I started working with this technology!

Every now and then (when he needs it) he pays for the services of a young EE student who then does the electronics sections for him.

Yes, I am helping Pete, however, he knows that he can now do it even without me!
And so can everyone else, too!
I have documented everything and supplied detailed explanations to the best of my abilities!
Think about this:
If I am GONE tomorrow, you are on your own.  ALL of you.

To be BLUNT, I dare say that this project is NOT for those who need every little detail spoon-fed to them!!
Just as I have expressed in one of my documents, a project of this size and nature requires at least some BASIC electronics knowledge, OR,
the assistance of someone who DOES have such knowledge.
Period.

Cheers,
Les Banki

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.09.09, 01:37:27
Two possible candidates:
http://www.qtww.com/assets/u/InjectorBrochure2.pdf
http://delphi.com/shared/pdf/ppd/pwrtrn/multec-compressed-natural-gas-injector.pdf

Matt,

Unfortunately, neither of those are suitable for this purpose, mainly because of their working pressure (50psi).
You don't want that kind of pressure with HydrOxy!
The JET 21 (Poliauto) has a WORKING pressure of approx. 10psi.
Further, the one in the first link requires a "peak & hold" power supply which complicates things even more.

Cheers,
Les Banki

Les
Perhaps you should let Pete decide  ?

In this Forum we don't look to make business or Profits , we look at the bigger picture and what we can do to help change that.
Like yourself we are not getting any younger and realize that if Nothing changes ...

well,  than nothing will.

Here we are working towards a public replication of your work ,using limited resources and very tight budgets/time ..

What lesson do you want to teach ? which example is the proper one....?

With the resources available here [People/experience] if this hard working and very serious  group of replicators gets their teeth into your work  

it will be game over for "convincing others". That resource is at your feet.


With all respect and appreciation .

Chet

Thanks Matt i understand now that the pulser is not needed at this moment.

Hydroxy is not my area of research but electronics is.

So i am willing to work on any electronics you need to get this up and running.

If you guys tell me what you need working on, i will get some PC B's made up and sent out  O0

Peter
I suspect "Hydroxy", HHO ,Browns Gas, etc will become a Hot topic here,seems different methods evolve different "Fuels"....?

It was noted Brute force electrolysis yields a fuel with different characteristics than Pulsing the electrolyte,  and Pulsing has several  techniques which can change the fuel even more.....

The 1/100 ratio which Les suggests,  must take advantage of these differences [pulse V's Brute],   as he recommends Pulsing...
Most folks I have spoken with who have hands on experience running HHO in ICE's  are taken a Back by the claim [self run plus gain].

So "basically" Cram all the ambient air you can get along with 1 percent "Pulsed Fuel" and ......

Wallah...!!


I'm Luvin this  :D [quite serious]

Best part is we will all learn "whats what" here as well as becoming familiar with his technique.

Very exciting stuff !!

thx
Chet
PS
RE : the huge disparity in fuel and Ambient air here , It does sound like the Turbine that Aaron has built/run...

http://www.overunity.com/7443/closing-the-loop-on-milkovics-two-stage-mechanical-oscillator/msg416978/#msg416978

I accidentally found the above thread.  Apparently, an experimenter working with Milkovic actually studied and commented on the Lee-Tseung lead-out energy theory.

The Lead-out energy theory now covers the leading-out of the "electron cloud" energy that can explain what the two Indian scientists observed.  If the electron clouds of HHO gas misture were different from gas mixtures from normal electrolysis, the source of energy can easily be explained.

Quote from: Chet K on 2014.09.09, 19:59:50
Peter
I suspect "Hydroxy", HHO ,Browns Gas, etc will become a Hot topic here,seems different methods evolve different "Fuels"....?

It was noted Brute force electrolysis yields a fuel with different characteristics than Pulsing the electrolyte,  and Pulsing has several  techniques which can change the fuel even more.....

The 1/100 ratio which Les suggests,  must take advantage of these differences [pulse V's Brute],   as he recommends Pulsing...
Most folks I have spoken with who have hands on experience running HHO in ICE's  are taken a Back by the claim [self run plus gain].

So "basically" Cram all the ambient air you can get along with 1 percent "Pulsed Fuel" and ......

Wallah...!!


I'm Luvin this  :D [quite serious]

Best part is we will all learn "whats what" here as well as becoming familiar with his technique.

Very exciting stuff !!

thx
Chet
PS
RE : the huge disparity in fuel and Ambient air here , It does sound like the Turbine that Aaron has built/run...

Yes Chet, the turbine was what I originally used and Aaron's was built by him under my direction from my original design from 1989. He has the RF system built by me and sent to him as well, though as far as I know the RF has not been used yet. He has used plasma into water vapour with only around 5% LPG.

The plasma is a fast pulsed capacitive discharge of his water spark plug fame, this has the ability of splitting the vapour in the burner tube once it is up to temperature.

It must be understood that HHO will not heat water directly, what happens is it heats the metal and any other gas which is not H and O, such as nitrogen "78% of our air". There is no chain reaction between HHO and water, you have to have an intermediate N2 seems to be quite a good one, a small amount of hydrocarbon also as in the turbine with LPG "5%".

If you look at all the people who have made claims of running engines on HHO, Meyer, Puharich etc including myself, we all have done this with small amounts of HHO, large amounts of non combustible gases "N2" mixed with the HHO.

HHO is a non radiant heat, it will heat steel, ceramics etc to 3000c, but water will not heat directly, nor burn your hand by passing the flame over it.

So to recap, a small amount of HHO with an intermediate will produce vast energy, that is what it is all about.

regards

Mike 8)

Quote from: Peterae on 2014.09.09, 18:08:36
Thanks Matt i understand now that the pulser is not needed at this moment.

Hydroxy is not my area of research but electronics is.

So i am willing to work on any electronics you need to get this up and running.

If you guys tell me what you need working on, i will get some PC B's made up and sent out  O0

Dear Peter.

I,for one would be interested in the electronics associated with this PDF that Les posted on page 1.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2578.0;attach=14625

Perhaps we can come to an arrangement ? I cannot find any reference to the winding ratio of the transformer, and I would assume the core material would have to be Ferrite to cope with the high frequency involved??

Cheers Graham.

Hi Grumage
I am willing to get pcbs produced and sent out, but that diagram requires a SITH and we cannot get them, but Les has produced another equivalent circuit diagram which uses a fet instead.

If this FET circuit is already proven to work i will work on it.

Can anyone confirm the FET circuit is working the same as the SITH circuit so i can proceed??

Les also mentions he has the PCB laid out, i don't use that PCB software but i can give it a go and download it, assuming the is a version a for the FET, if not i will CAD it up myself, if that can be answered then i will proceed.

I personally would just leave a screw terminal for you to plug the transformer into, so that wont affect the PCB.

Peter

Quote from: Augusto Fagioli
Hi Matt,

thanks for your e-mail.

Yes, I confirm you that our Company POLIAUTO developed and manufactures this gas injector JET 21.

Yes, Mr. Les Banki contacted me  time ago.

Tomorrow morning I will send our best offer for this item, in the meantime pls tell me how many pcs you should order in case, thanks.

Best regards
Augusto Fagioli


Ing. Augusto Fagioli

POLIAUTO
ing. Pietro Parietti e C. snc
Via Emilia Pavese, 120
29121   PIACENZA     ITALY

Tel-Fax     +39 0523 408261

E-mail        poliauto@tin.it

So it looks like we can get injectors directly from POLIAUTO.  I'm thinking two for myself.  Anyone else want to order direct from them or should we pool a request and I can order in bulk and ship them out to whoever else wants some?  I would imagine we can get a price break if I place a large order versus a small one, not sure if it will cover the re-shipping costs or not--something I can deal with later.

What say you everyone?

Matt
depending on price ,I need two also.

Just a small note...I will be reaching out to the fellows in India again [nano pulse claim] to see if they can talk about their Paper
and results ...
perhaps even invite them here.

Not thru Emails,  Via Phone call .

thx
Chet

I am afraid i am not up to speed on this stuff, can you use electronic propane injectors & an ECU

Quote from: Peterae on 2014.09.10, 17:01:18
Can anyone confirm the FET circuit is working the same as the SITH circuit so i can proceed??

Something that seriously concerns me is the fact this circuit must drive ONLY a single cell.  It cannot be a multi-stack cell with neutral plates.  So it's possible amperage will be a concern.  This leads me to my other previous thought...

Can we use something like my UniSwitch and pulse high voltage (~ 500 volts) into a step-down transformer and overcome any potential current draw issues?

Also on the issue of single cell, does everyone have a suitable method for ganging plates together in parallel so that even though you might have 120 plates, you still only have a single cell?  Actually 60 cells all wired in parallel.  My particular cell is a dry cell with plate tabs on every plate, so this isn't too painful for me to accomplish.  The picture of the slotted Plexiglas cell Les posted would be a bitch to gang together unless he doesn't completely flood the plates; even still, you would need a whole mess of stainless steel clips to create in effect two large bus bars.

Quote from: Peterae on 2014.09.10, 17:48:33
I am afraid i am not up to speed on this stuff, can you use electronic propane injectors & an ECU

I'm not Les, but trying to think like him tells me you need moderately fast, high volume, low pressure injectors.  As Les stated, the two LPG/CNG models I proposed will not work--too high of a working pressure.  We need to stay right around 10 PSI to be safe; any higher pressure than that and the risk of a backfire getting through the injector and into the HydrOxy supply line would be disastrous.  Having done that already, I can vouch for Les' concerns--still finding tiny pieces of a shredded reservoir in my garage.

OK I see thanks Matt

OK i have this so far, not sure whats going on down the bottom with -ON is that a switch, why is input of IC2B pin 3 floating.

Quote from: Peterae on 2014.09.10, 20:01:21
OK i have this so far, not sure whats going on down the bottom with -ON is that a switch, why is input of IC2B pin 3 floating.

Based on the 4046 spec sheet:
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/scha002a/scha002a.pdf

That is an inhibit line, so I'm guessing Les has worked it out to connect to a pressure sensor circuit to shutdown pulsing when the system is stable at 10 PSI.

Ha Thanks Matt, makes sense, i will add a screw terminal block for external connection, it can be linked out that way as well.  O0

Quote from: Peterae on 2014.09.10, 20:37:41
Ha Thanks Matt, makes sense, i will add a screw terminal block for external connection, it can be linked out that way as well.  O0

Probably want to have the inverted as well as the non-inverted input so either way the pressure comparator output will work.  Attaching the wire to a different terminal block when you have your signal backwards is a life saver.   ;)

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.09.10, 23:15:19
Probably want to have the inverted as well as the non-inverted input so either way the pressure comparator output will work.  Attaching the wire to a different terminal block when you have your signal backwards is a life saver.   ;)

Matt,

You are correct.  Note that this is already explained in the circuit description.  (attached)
When you download this edited version, make sure you delete the previous one.
I am also attaching my proposed circuit diagram version for substituting the SIThy with a MOSFET and with TVS diode protection for the MOSFETs and the driver!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Thanks Les

I will update the circuit later  O0 and start the PCB layout.

Peter

Quote from: Peterae on 2014.09.11, 05:36:58
Thanks Les

I will update the circuit later  O0 and start the PCB layout.

Peter

Peter,

I have just lost a post I was writing.  I was trying to attach my pcb layout file in the original Protel format but the forum software does not accept .pcb extention.
Any suggestion how to get around that?

I wrote more and now I have to re-write it again because of the trouble with the file rejection.

I am very tired now so I need to wait till tomorrow.
Please don't do any more on the pcb before my next post!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Hi Les
Normally you would zip up the files, it allows zip, having said that i have just set .pcb & .sch to be allowed.

If it rejects a post you can click the back button on your browser to retrieve your lost post, copy it and then try posting again having pasted your previous failed post into the new  O0

Regards
Peter

Attached is the quote for the JET 21 injectors.  Small price break if ordered in quantity.

Approximately 50 Euros each, which seems quite reasonable, especially since it includes shipping.

I'm not familiar with how to wire transfer funds as depicted in the quote, so if someone knows, please enlighten me.

Matt
that is handled thru your Bank [usually for a fee]
or western union and similar establishments can also do this [typically more expensive  ]

Chet

Quote from: Peterae on 2014.09.11, 18:09:15
Hi Les
Normally you would zip up the files, it allows zip, having said that i have just set .pcb & .sch to be allowed.

If it rejects a post you can click the back button on your browser to retrieve your lost post, copy it and then try posting again having pasted your previous failed post into the new  O0

Regards
Peter

Hi Peter & others,

Please note that my circuit diagram which depicts a MOSFET instead of a SIThy, is only a proposed one and I have made that clear from the beginning!

Understand that "Proposed" refers only to Q2 and components associated with it.
(as a possible substitute for a SIThy)

The rest of the circuit works perfectly!

In other words, the proposed one is NOT a final circuit which some readers may mistakenly believe!
Some people may also believe that substituting the SIThy is simple and easy.
As far as I can see right now, that is NOT the case!

In my circuit description (see text in red and blue colours), I have explained (as well as I could) the technical difficulties of substituting the SIThy with some other device.

The attached Protel pcb file can only be opened with Protel software. (like the free 'Protel 99SE)
It is really only for Peter (and perhaps some others, too) who wish to see some details of my basic circuit layout. 

I would like to invite all those who have the necessary knowledge of electronics to closely examine my circuit and its description (provided you are interested in this subject, of course!) and possibly suggest a way of substituting the SIThy with a MOSFET.

Frankly, guys, I need a break!
No kidding.

Cheers,
Les Banki

OK Thanks Les
I will study it when i get in from work.

Yes sorry i know you keep repeating yourself for us.
I will look it over and yes i understand the situation that you are proposing a circuit as a possible substitute, well there's only one way to find out if it is possible.

Thanks Again
Peter

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.09.11, 18:56:24
Attached is the quote for the JET 21 injectors.  Small price break if ordered in quantity.

Approximately 50 Euros each, which seems quite reasonable, especially since it includes shipping.

I'm not familiar with how to wire transfer funds as depicted in the quote, so if someone knows, please enlighten me.

Matt & Chet,

Since most people don' like dealing with Banks, I have an idea.

Now that you have established contact with Poliauto, you could/should ask if they have a PayPal account.
If not, you could suggest that they should consider getting one, due to the possibility of getting orders (small or large) from all over the world.
That could be due to the fact that there are now several hundred people in possession of the WFGP files.

As for the 'JET 21' Poliauto injector, there is one more thing I like to point out.
In the JET range, Poliauto has 6 sizes.
JET 21 is the largest one (capacity).

I settled for 'JET 21' because if we don't need its full capacity (injected gas volume), we can REDUCE the volume by one of two means, or BOTH.
One is to reduce injection time but the better one is to reduce gas PRESSURE!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.09.10, 17:59:41
Something that seriously concerns me is the fact this circuit must drive ONLY a single cell.

Matt,

No need to be concerned....!
In fact, it will be smaller, lighter, cheaper and overall, easier and quicker to make!
In the link below you can see one such idea....there are several pages, pictures and details.
The shim (foil) can be a lot thinner.
Further, note that the effective surface area will DOUBLE when the foils are rolled up.
There can also be several other ways to make a similar unit.

As for power, I don't think we need more than about 250-300W to run a generator which right now needs around 2kW.

http://oupower.com/index.php?dir=_Other_Peoples_Projects/AntDavison/kettle%20c.2003

All who read this; please keep in mind that my ECU design can run, as is, ANY size SINGLE cylinder generator!
You may need a larger electrolyser for a very large generator but the engine management section remains the same.

Cheers,
Les Banki

Les
I suppose the thing which we need to get working here is the Generator at 1%  fuel ratio...

The rest will fall right into place.

Thx

Chet

Dear Chet.

I thought you might like to see this ??   :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwjTDXR31KA

Brute force electrolysis !!   :D

Cheers Graham.

Graham

Congratulations !!!!

Arc welder Electrolysis ...I thought I saw  the lights dim a little while ago ,,, ;D
Flintstone ballast on the HHO "Storage manifold"..

just doesn't get any better than this, I don't think I will stop smiling for the rest of the Day....

"When Men were Men ! "  

* I love that little beast you have running there , How many Liters do you think it used for that run ?

Great stuff !!

Thx
Chet

That's pretty neat there Graham!

Now I have to ask, can you make it run on air?

;D


Okay, almost air?

Odd as that sounds Matt [running on Air ]
Running on "WATER" sounds crazier ...


And Graham just ran an engine on Water.

:o

Absolutely loving this !! [Quite sure he is too]   O0

Chet

Nice little motor Graham.

How are you injecting the HHO?  is this motor basicly a 2stroke?

regards

Mike 8)

Quote from: Centraflow on 2014.09.13, 11:41:03
Nice little motor Graham.

How are you injecting the HHO?  is this motor basicly a 2stroke?

regards

Mike 8)

Dear Mike.

Thanks for the compliment, yes we made some damn fine toys back then !!  :)

The engine employs a very early expansion only principle. Similar to that of Etienne Lenoir or Alexis De Bisschop. First quarter, induction second quarter ignition and expansion, final half exhaust. So yes, a very inefficient two stroke.
The HHO was being admitted by a small poppet valve actuated by a tiny lobe on the sideshaft.

Earlier on my son and I tried to run my Robinson "X" type Town Gas engine, but alas, Hot tube ignition and HHO do not mix very well........... I think the explosion was probably heard in the village a mile away !!  ;D
I will try to put a sparkplug in for ear safety !!  :)

Cheers graham.

Hi Les
I have opened the .pcb file, this is for the SITH, I can copy your layout and alter it for the FET circuit, i presume we want PCBs for the FET output stage because at the moment we are unable to acquire the SITH component.

Quote from: Chet K on 2014.09.09, 19:59:50

RE : the huge disparity in fuel and Ambient air here ,...

Chet, 

"RE : the huge disparity in fuel and Ambient air here, "

You seem to be fascinated with the AIR/FUEL ratio of 99:1.
Why?
I don't know if the above is your expression or someone else's but it doesn't matter.

The only "huge" thing about it is that it is a gross misconception and if I don't "knock it on the head", it is going to spread just like other misconceptions!

No offense but it seems that some people have lost their ability of logical thinking and observation!

Whoever thinks that a 99:1 ratio of AIR and FUEL (HydrOxy in this case) is a "huge disparity",
should do the following experiment:

Get an ordinary, standard fuel injector for petrol (gasoline, for the folks in the US) and set up your  equipment.
You don't need petrol for this test, you can use water.
Pressurize the water to about 40psi.  (most injectors work in the range of 36-42psi range)
Set your injector power supply pulse TIMING to 10ms.
Direct the output of your injector into a closed container.
Fire (activate) your injector 100 times.  (your TOTAL injection time is 1 second.)

Now remove your container and measure (either by volume or by weight) the water collected!
Divide the result by 100 to get the volume (or weight) of ONE 'squirt'!
Well, I am not going to spoil your 'fun' by giving you the result!
However, just to "tease" you a little:  do you think it will be 3.9cc, injected in just 10ms???
You can report back here with your result and also tell us if you still think a 99:1 ratio is such a "huge disparity"!?!?

Oh, alright, I know that not a single one of you will ever do the above experiment so here is an easy to understand explanation:

Question:  HOW MUCH water did you electrolyze to get 3.9cc HydrOxy?
Answer:  Divide 3.9 by 2000 = 0.00195cc!, or 1.95 mm³, or 0.04 drop, or 1/25 of a drop!!!

Well, then, when you inject 0.00195cc of water into the 420cc cavity (cylinder) of your generator, what is the Air/Fuel ratio???? Try 215384:1
THAT you could call a HUGE "disparity"!!

Some of you might think I am "splitting hairs" here but hey, this is happening in everyday life with every fuel injected engine all around the world!
The numbers may be a bit different with liquid fuels but the basic principle is the same!
(Sure, there is a BIG difference between liquid and gaseous fuels but that is not the point here.)

Actually, you might be surprised to know that depending on the QUALITY of the HydrOxy (its mono-atomic contents of H and O), it might be LESS than 1% required!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Quote from: Peterae on 2014.09.14, 07:34:27
Hi Les
I have opened the .pcb file, this is for the SITH, I can copy your layout and alter it for the FET circuit, i presume we want PCBs for the FET output stage because at the moment we are unable to acquire the SITH component.

Hi Peter,

I am pleased that you added the .pcb and .sch extensions to the software and also that you were able to open my pcb file.

But reading your brief comments a couple of times, I am not sure you fully understood (no offense) my explanations about the circuit.
So just to make sure, I will repeat it here, briefly.

My circuit and its pcb layout is a driver for the IES unit and does not need further changes.
However, it DOES NOT include neither the SIThy, nor a SIThy substitute (MOSFET)!
THAT is an extra component which needs to be added (together with its supporting parts), once the successful substitution has been made.

Thus, once again, the circuit does not need "altering".
It only needs "additions".

For more details, please re-read my description.

Cheers,
Les Banki

My apologies Les, lack of time made me draw my own incorrect conclusion.

Shall i send this out and get some boards produced.
We can tag on the required experimental bits.

Peter

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.09.14, 07:58:56
Whoever thinks that a 99:1 ratio of AIR and FUEL (HydrOxy in this case) is a "huge disparity",
should do the following experiment:
...

Les, I'd like to propose an alternate experiment that may make it clear.

Start out with an spark igniter probe that can be inserted into a balloon.

Setup two sources:  One of them 10 psi air; the other 10 psi HydrOxy.

Inject for one second the 10 psi HydrOxy via critical orifice into the balloon.

Using the same critical orifice, inject for 100 seconds the 10 psi air.

Strike the igniter.

If it is not a requirement for these mixed gases to be under compression (higher than atmospheric) , the balloon should rupture.

Yes, no, maybe so...?

Quote from: Peterae on 2014.09.14, 11:46:12
My apologies Les, lack of time made me draw my own incorrect conclusion.

Shall i send this out and get some boards produced.
We can tag on the required experimental bits.

Peter

Peter,

I have an idea which may satisfy just about everyone - at least for the time being.

The idea is simply to have TWO boards.
Since my original circuit is already working as an IES driver, it can be used AS IS!
(I have made some modifications and it is now ready for use.)

Then, put the components which needs to be tried (and perhaps the transformer as well), on a second pcb for experimenting/butchering!
I could make another circuit diagram as well, showing the separation of the two sections.

If you wish, I could attach the new (modified) layout to my next post.
What do you think?

Cheers,
Les Banki

Dear Les.

You mentioned the transformer in your latest post. Have I missed something? I have not seen any reference to construction/ratio !

Please forgive me if I have missed it?

On a different note, my son and I have tried to run a larger 4 stroke engine, 3 inch bore 4 inch stroke fitted with a Platinum tipped sparkplug.
All we got was a catastrophic backfire !! Safety equipment is a definite MUST !! My ears are still ringing.  :)

Cheers Graham.

Hi Les

Sure sounds good to me.

The PCB manufacturer will probably ask for the Gerber and Drill files etc, are you familiar enough with Protel to pass those on to me, either that or i will try just sending them the .PCB file and see if they can work it out themselves.

The next question is who want a PCB so i can work out how many to get made up, the postage & PCB will be free to members here, so start putting your orders in guys so i can get an idea  O0

If you don't want to divulge personal addresses, i don't mind that either as long as i have an address to ship too  O0

Les you can have as many as you want, just give me an idea, you may have your own friends to give some too.

Regards
Peter

Quote from: Peterae on 2014.09.15, 18:00:36
Hi Les

Sure sounds good to me.

The PCB manufacturer will probably ask for the Gerber and Drill files etc, are you familiar enough with Protel to pass those on to me, either that or i will try just sending them the .PCB file and see if they can work it out themselves.

The next question is who want a PCB so i can work out how many to get made up, the postage & PCB will be free to members here, so start putting your orders in guys so i can get an idea  O0

If you don't want to divulge personal addresses, i don't mind that either as long as i have an address to ship too  O0

Les you can have as many as you want, just give me an idea, you may have your own friends to give some too.

Regards
Peter

Dear Peter.

Please count me in.

My WW2 Gen set should be arriving within the next couple of weeks.

Looking forward to creating some extra energy over this coming winter!!   :)

Cheers Graham.

No problem Grumage, i will send you one when i get them  O0

Cheers
Peter

Quote from: Peterae on 2014.09.15, 18:00:36
Hi Les

Sure sounds good to me.

The PCB manufacturer will probably ask for the Gerber and Drill files etc, are you familiar enough with Protel to pass those on to me, either that or i will try just sending them the .PCB file and see if they can work it out themselves.

The next question is who want a PCB so i can work out how many to get made up, the postage & PCB will be free to members here, so start putting your orders in guys so i can get an idea  O0

If you don't want to divulge personal addresses, i don't mind that either as long as i have an address to ship too  O0

Les you can have as many as you want, just give me an idea, you may have your own friends to give some too.

Regards
Peter

Peter,

Since I have taken it this far, I may as well finish it by making the layout for the second pcb as well.

I have re-drawn the circuit diagram, showing the separation between the two boards.
Everything to the right of the RED lines will be placed on the second board.
(See attached diagram 'nanopup6.sch'.)

The modified pcb layout for the DRIVER, 'nanopps4.pcb' is also attached.
This board needs no further modifications.

As for Gerber files, please note the following:

ALL Protel pcb files I publish are complete.  Yes, Gerber files need to be extracted from them but I NEVER
had to do that since my pcb suppliers have ALWAYS done that as part of their service!
Nowadays though, most of them are reluctant or unwilling to do that because they are too lazy and want maximum profit for
minimum work!  You just have to find the RIGHT one.....!  (My present pcb supplier is the BEST I ever had!  In China!)

So if you are not 'tied' to a particular pcb manufacturer, I could put you onto my supplier!
Their QUALITY and SERVICE is second to none and their prices are HALF of everyone else'!
No kidding!

Just to show you the kind of quality they produce, I have attached a photo of the first nano-board I designed a couple of months ago
and they made 10 pieces for me for $36.00, including postage!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Hi Les
No problem with the supplier, i think the one i used before would probably of used the .PCB as it was but just wanted to check with you.

So in that case you can indeed pass your Manufacturers details onto me via PM and i will use them  O0

Thanks for the additional layout work Les

I have had 3 requests for boards so far  O0

So if i were to send you 3 sets, i would then have 1 set for me 3 spare if i get 10 sets made, and if we need more then that is easy to order another 10, and there maybe alterations of the 2ND board anyway once we do some tests.

PS i could not see the component reference when i loaded the .PCB in protel, is that because i did not load a .sch as well or do i need to turn something on to make that visible, if you look at my post above with the PCB view it shows where the details should be but does not seem to have the information like R1,R2 etc.
Regards
Peter

Quote from: Peterae on 2014.09.16, 18:03:06
Hi Les
No problem with the supplier, i think the one i used before would probably of used the .PCB as it was but just wanted to check with you.

So in that case you can indeed pass your Manufacturers details onto me via PM and i will use them  O0

Thanks for the additional layout work Les

I have had 3 requests for boards so far  O0

So if i were to send you 3 sets, i would then have 1 set for me 3 spare if i get 10 sets made, and if we need more then that is easy to order another 10, and there maybe alterations of the 2ND board anyway once we do some tests.

Regards
Peter

Hi Peter & all,

I have just received permission to publish all contact details of my pcb manufacturer:

I would like to suggest publish my contact details as follows:
Name: Grace Liu
Website: http://pcb.hqew.net/?s=545651
Email: hqewpcb1@gmail.com
Mobile: 86-15220275629
Skype: hqew-three


So, if and when you wish to order, just email Grace (a delightfully helpful and pleasant young lady!), mention my name and attach the pcb file(s) you want made.
You can also use their web site directly to get instant quotes, without even having to "register"! 
(So far, I have not found any other web site where you don't have to "register" just for getting a quote!)

As for the second board, give me a couple of days to do the layout and I will publish (attach) the pcb file.

Quote from: Peterae on 2014.09.16, 18:03:06
PS i could not see the component reference when i loaded the .PCB in protel, is that because i did not load a .sch as well or do i need to turn something on to make that visible, if you look at my post above with the PCB view it shows where the details should be but does not seem to have the information like R1,R2 etc.
Regards
Peter

You don't need to load .sch file to see the component details.
When you have the pcb layout displayed on the screen, you just ENLARGE it (using the "Page Up" button, for example).
Keep pushing the "Page Up" button until the component details are displayed!

By the way, in my personal opinion, the early Protel For Windows (PFW) software is the BEST CAD program ever written for pcb!
The original Protel pcb software was delivered on a SINGLE Floppy disc!  (You remember those?, with the capacity of 1.44Mb!?)

The sch software was on 5 Floppy disks.
Thus, the entire PFW software package was on 6 Floppies!

"They" just don't/can't write software like that any more!

Just have a look at the size of my pcb files!
For example, the LARGEST board in my WFGP ('autorpm.pcb') is only 40kb!

Anyway, enough 'raving'......!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Quote from: Grumage on 2014.09.15, 10:45:37
Dear Les.

You mentioned the transformer in your latest post. Have I missed something? I have not seen any reference to construction/ratio !

Please forgive me if I have missed it?

On a different note, my son and I have tried to run a larger 4 stroke engine, 3 inch bore 4 inch stroke fitted with a Platinum tipped sparkplug.
All we got was a catastrophic backfire !! Safety equipment is a definite MUST !! My ears are still ringing.  :)

Cheers Graham.

Graham,

You have not missed anything since there was/is not much point discussing the transformer until the SIThy substitution has been solved.
However, I am including an ETD49 ferrite transformer on the second board I am doing now.

As for your 'ringing' ears, can you imagine me doing several explosions a day (NOT with engines) every time someone interested 'dropped in'?
All that was about 18 or so years ago....
It was great fun at the time but I did not wake up to the long term damage.
That is the main reason why I am half deaf!  (excessive hearing loss for my age)

Never mind....

Cheers,
Les Banki

Hi Les
Lets wait for the second board and i will order both at the same time  O0

Cheers
Peter

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.09.14, 07:58:56
Chet, 

"RE : the huge disparity in fuel and Ambient air here, "

You seem to be fascinated with the AIR/FUEL ratio of 99:1.
Why?
I don't know if the above is your expression or someone else's but it doesn't matter.

The only "huge" thing about it is that it is a gross misconception and if I don't "knock it on the head", it is going to spread just like other misconceptions!

No offense but it seems that some people have lost their ability of logical thinking and observation!

Whoever thinks that a 99:1 ratio of AIR and FUEL (HydrOxy in this case) is a "huge disparity",
should do the following experiment:

Get an ordinary, standard fuel injector for petrol (gasoline, for the folks in the US) and set up your  equipment.
You don't need petrol for this test, you can use water.
Pressurize the water to about 40psi.  (most injectors work in the range of 36-42psi range)
Set your injector power supply pulse TIMING to 10ms.
Direct the output of your injector into a closed container.
Fire (activate) your injector 100 times.  (your TOTAL injection time is 1 second.)

Now remove your container and measure (either by volume or by weight) the water collected!
Divide the result by 100 to get the volume (or weight) of ONE 'squirt'!
Well, I am not going to spoil your 'fun' by giving you the result!
However, just to "tease" you a little:  do you think it will be 3.9cc, injected in just 10ms???
You can report back here with your result and also tell us if you still think a 99:1 ratio is such a "huge disparity"!?!?

Oh, alright, I know that not a single one of you will ever do the above experiment so here is an easy to understand explanation:

Question:  HOW MUCH water did you electrolyze to get 3.9cc HydrOxy?
Answer:  Divide 3.9 by 2000 = 0.00195cc!, or 1.95 mm³, or 0.04 drop, or 1/25 of a drop!!!

Well, then, when you inject 0.00195cc of water into the 420cc cavity (cylinder) of your generator, what is the Air/Fuel ratio???? Try 215384:1
THAT you could call a HUGE "disparity"!!

Some of you might think I am "splitting hairs" here but hey, this is happening in everyday life with every fuel injected engine all around the world!
The numbers may be a bit different with liquid fuels but the basic principle is the same!
(Sure, there is a BIG difference between liquid and gaseous fuels but that is not the point here.)

Actually, you might be surprised to know that depending on the QUALITY of the HydrOxy (its mono-atomic contents of H and O), it might be LESS than 1% required!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Les
I find it hard to believe that any engine on any fuel will run at a 99:1 ratio. Lets take LPG for an example.The air fuel(gas) ratio using this fuel is around 12.5 to 14:1-->any higher and your engine runs lean and hot,not to mention the power loss,and the damage that follows.

Looking at your claim of 99:1 fuel/air ratio.
Lets take a 6hp honda stationary motor(im using this motor because i know how much HHO it take per minute to get it to idle),which are close to 200cc. So using your ratio,we need close to 1cc every stroke of the engine(engine is 200cc,but only fires once every 2 revolutions) 200/99=2.02/2=1.01cc per revolution. So at 3500rpm,we need only 3.535LPM of HHO .

Now,when i run my 200cc motor at 900RPM(idle),i need 7.2LPM of HHO-or it just wont run. So from this,i am very interested to know how exactly you manage a 99:1 fuel ratio to get an ICE to run. No fuel that i know of will run an ICE at this ratio.

Cheers
Brad

TinMan
You fellows share the same Continent [Les and yourself] ,perhaps some communication between you two would greatly assist this replication ?

I'll buy the Magnums.......

https://www.google.com/search?q=magnum+ice+cream+case+pic&rlz=1C1OPRB_enUS586US586&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=677&tbm=isch&imgil=pyRsU_0Qx3PwFM%253A%253BJCg4d6n_rMUYZM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Ffigville.wordpress.com%25252F2012%25252F04%25252F10%25252Fmagnum-ice-cream-bars%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=pyRsU_0Qx3PwFM%253A%252CJCg4d6n_rMUYZM%252C_&usg=__-y27ODus5P-VEy6sgQl3QiDX_Mo%3D&ved=0CEMQyjc&ei=o2sdVNmaJ5SuyASj9oDACg#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=pyRsU_0Qx3PwFM%253A%3BJCg4d6n_rMUYZM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Ffigville.files.wordpress.com%252F2012%252F04%252Fmagnum.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ffigville.wordpress.com%252F2012%252F04%252F10%252Fmagnum-ice-cream-bars%252F%3B906%3B452

:o

thx
Chet

Quote from: TinMan on 2014.09.20, 07:20:54

i am very interested to know how exactly you manage a 99:1 fuel ratio to get an ICE to run.

To save Les from having to answer the same questions year after year,
here's a link to him previously describing what this present project is all about.

http://pesn.com/2012/04/11/9602072_Les_Banki_on_the_Secret_of_Achieving_Overunity_with_Hydroxy_Using_Injectors/

 :-\

Quote from: Mookie on 2014.09.20, 12:59:32
To save Les from having to answer the same questions year after year,
here's a link to him previously describing what this present project is all about.

http://pesn.com/2012/04/11/9602072_Les_Banki_on_the_Secret_of_Achieving_Overunity_with_Hydroxy_Using_Injectors/

This explained nothing,in fact it only adds to the confusion.
Please clarify-->are we talking 99:1 water ratio that is turned into HHO?. If so,then this is a possable ratio,but water is not fuel,so that would be a misdirection of fuel/air ratio.
If we are talking a 99:1 HHO/air ratio,then i remain firm on my statement that this will never run an ICE,regardless of wether an injector is used or not. Fuel injectors do nothing more than atomise the liquid fuel to a finer particle than can be achieved from a carburetor. This allows a more complete and cleaner burn,and more controll over the air/fuel ratio's. As HHO is a gas already,then the injector will not produce a cleaner or more complete burn than that as if the HHO gas was to flow through a throttle body. What it will do is give you controll over any gas left in the intake manifold during the exhausting and compression strokes. But this gas is not wasted,as it is drawn into the engine during the next intake stroke. The injector system will not add to the engines efficiency when running on HHO,it will only eliminate the chance of a back fire through the intake.

The engine spark timing also needs to be set to +/- 1* TDC, and waste spark needs to be removed-->This is what causes the back firing.Once the waste spark is removed,there is no need for an injector,as the intake valve is closed during the next spark cycle.Only if you have a leaky intake valve,can you get a back fire once the waste spark is removed. I achieved this by using a set of points running of the cam shaft,as it is a 2:1 ratio to engine revolutions. But rather than use the points opening to create the spark,i used them to complete the kill switch wire to ground.this way when the points are closed,the kill switch to the coil is on.Only when the points are open,can the coil produce a spark.This eliminates any sparking at the point's,and allows timing by moving the coil position,rather than adjusting the points dwell angle.

In saying all this,please understand that I'm not saying that what is claimed is not possible,or calling any one a lire. All i have stated is from my own experience from experiments. This is one case where i hope I'm very wrong.

Below is a picture of my 15 plate cell,and it will produce 12LPM of HHO with no problem-->it will do 14 LPM if i push it hard.
I also have many ICE's and complete gen sets of different sizes,ranging from 1.2kW to 6 kW's(4hp to 9hp). I am more than happy to replicate per the inventors spec's,including the injection system. I have many different size gas injectors,drive regulators, HHO flow meters and the likes for gas injection systems. I have all that is needed for the project(except your pulse driver)which i can either purchase from you,or use my SG(as seen in pic) to obtain the correct pulse formation.

Hello all,

HHO is the perfect fuel that  burns up to 4400m/s, to fast for any IC engine.

Adding intake air+oxygen makes it less powerful and HHO+added O= less fuel.

Hydrogen is what is needed, you need to take out the oxygen, because this is added from intake stroke of the engine, no need to add more.

This is create better efficiency and will take less energy to produce just hydrogen gas to run a engine.

Clearly, fuel mixture is the key, not timing as some people believe when using plan HHO!

Laughable!

As just a comment from someone who hasn't had much to do with HHO but understands fuel gasses and the effect of pure oxygen mixed with fuel gasses due to being a boilermaker and also having messed with cars all my life.

I think if water can be converted to HHO and the burn rate does not suit a conventional IC engine then maybe a new ICE design needs to be considered.
Also, if a design can comprise of a closed system with recycling of exhaust water and the agent/gas used for control of the burn rate that might be good.

I think if HHO is to be some fantastic source of fuel and 8 times what is considered possible can be had then a complete redesign of the power unit or IC engine that can use it well should be considered and may mitigate many current issues with applying the fuel to conventional IC engines.

Cars are replaced so often these days it seems a bit obsolete to be concerned with running old engines on HHO.

If electrolysis produces both Hydrogen and Oxygen then both gases are needed for combustion and discarding the oxygen to replace it with a mixture of gases including oxygen in varying concentrations seem a bit non precise. If the HHO produced has a given ratio of hydrogen to oxygen then just the right amount of inert gas needs to be mixed with the HHO before it enters the chamber and the timings all tightly controlled.

There is no reason a IC engine even needs to remain in a piston and crank configuration either, a combination of a closed pressure system (sterling engine like) and the raw power of burning HHO in an enclosed space seems it could have promise in a few different ways.

Design a new engine for the fuel, not tailor the fuel for the existing engine I say.

..

@All
Tomorrow the injector  recommended by Les will be on its way to Grumage for testing.

We shall see...?

thx
Chet

Hi all,

This is how to use HHO without any back pressure that will cause a implosion effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36s5HEyiIsA&list=UUSonN_EWtb4Dhq2r9WC6mFQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36s5HEyiIsA&list=UUSonN_EWtb4Dhq2r9WC6mFQ)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep8oDn5u_Zw&list=UUSonN_EWtb4Dhq2r9WC6mFQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep8oDn5u_Zw&list=UUSonN_EWtb4Dhq2r9WC6mFQ)



Tom

Dear All.

From the 1860's to the mid 1890's ALL IC Engines ran on gaseous fuel. This fuel was predominantly Hydrogen !! Apart from Etienne Lenoir's engine who actually pioneered the use of HT ignition and spark plugs, most were ignited by Hot tube. Ever wondered where the term Chauffer came from ??

These engines had a rather low compression ratio so as not to pre ignite the mixture. With the onset of LT and then HT ignition higher ratios of compression were used to gain more power from the same bore and stroke  !!

As has already been stated Hydrogen burns fast !! You don't need an advanced ignition as there is no need to get things burning!!  Ah burning, yes that is what is happening, we are heating the Nitrogen causing it to expand upon our piston, simple as that !!

I have had a long chat with Mike (Centraflow) BTW, thanks for your patience Mike !!  ;)   I will be progressing to a slightly larger compression 2 stroke engine built to the Systemé Loyal principle. I will of course keep you posted.

Cheers Grum.

The hydrogen all by itself will not burn without any oxygen to facilitate combustion. To get the fastest burn rate of any hydrocarbon/fuel gas exactly the correct amount of oxygen mixed evenly with the fuel gas is required.

If we take for example acetylene gas if we burn it in air the burn is slow and dirty with lots of soot, but if we start our oxy - acetylene torch and adjust it produce a neutral flame so that the oxygen mixed with the acetylene is the correct amount to burn all of the acetylene/fuel gas cleanly, then extinguish the flame without altering the fuel and oxygen mixture adjustment then fill a balloon with the mixture when ignited it burns like an explosion.

I don't see any way for it burn completely and cleanly without having the correct amount of oxygen available to burn all the hydrogen, I wouldn't like to exhaust any hard made hydrogen unburned.

So what is needed in my opinion is Hydrogen and oxygen and maybe added air as well in the correct ratio to burn the fuel gas completely and maybe some inert gas to take up space or something.

I think that slowing the burn rate is ok as long as all the hydrogen and oxygen produced for the purpose is utilized.

One thing is not disputable HHO is a highly combustible substance and in my opinion a person should need a permit to produce it, just as with explosives ect.
It's a lot more dangerous than just a fuel gas alone. Magnitudes more dangerous.

..

Brad & others,

This post is not just a 'have a go at' some of you.
It is general.
I want ALL readers here to understand WHAT is happening and WHY.

First of all, I have no intention, time or the desire to repeat all those things which I have been publishing for years!

I don't care how many HHO experiments you guys have performed!!
IF you want answers, you need to STUDY my WFGP.

You will also have to read ALL my posts on this thread, not just a couple!
There are NO short-cuts here if you want results.

Note that I don't make what some call "claims".
I make statements, take them or leave them!
In addition, I regularly point out the obvious.

Without trying to be nasty or rude to anyone, I say some of you have a 'problem'.
Your ATTITUDE.
Every other problem you have originates from that.
Period.

Several negative comments about HyrOxy in general has NOT escaped my attention!

They have been made both on this Forum and elsewhere and now HERE on THIS thread!

It is unfortunate that there are people who declare things they are unable to do as IMPOSSIBLE!

Personal opinions don't concern me but when FALSE statements are made on public Forums, then it becomes a different issue altogether.
Intentional or not, it becomes downright MISLEADING information!!

Brad, I will now analyze your comments.

The first BIG mistake is that you try to compare HydrOxy to hydrocarbon fuels.
That is like comparing apples to oranges.
No ifs, no buts.

There is simply NO comparison!
Not even to Hydrogen. (H2)

Which is a PUSSYCAT compared to freshly created (nascent) HydrOxy!

Peter H., the Greek/Australian genius who has been running his car on water since 1979 (and a second car since 1998) has repeatedly stated that water is 26 times more powerful than petrol!

I have no problems whatsoever with his statement as it is also my experience.
THAT is my reality.
Everything else is just OPINIONS and the last time I checked, OPINIONS don't run engines!!! :) ;D

Yet you have stated that water is not a fuel. 
Is that so? 
Because YOU say so???

With 26 times more power than petrol, water is not a fuel?? Yeah, right.....!
Are you serious?

Then there are those who are stuck with their 'theories' and calculations of "calorific" values of Hydrogen, etc., etc.
And they wonder WHY they don't get any results!

There is also another aspect to this which very few people seem to be aware of, despite my previous efforts of explaining.
ENERGY.
No, I am NOT talking about some "calorific" energy derived from matter.
The energy I am referring to has many names, take your pick.
Aether, ZPE, Orgone, Life force or whatever.....

I am sure most of you have heard about the 'Joe Cell'.
Contrary to some opinions, it has nothing to do with HydrOxy or electrolysis.
Sure, you see Joe exploding some gas bubbles during his cell conditioning which is part of the process. 
However, that is where it ends.
Consider this: after the cell is 'conditioned', the tube from the cell is attached to the wall of the engine block.
There is NO HOLE.
Therefore, NOT A SINGLE PARTICLE of any description can enter the engine!!

Care to explain how it works with conventional theory???

The MAIN problem most people have is DISBELIEF!

Brad, in your last post you said you are not calling anyone 'a liar'....

Well, either you have not read my post #68, or you don't pay proper attention to what you read because you have just called my friend Pete a 'liar'!!  ;D ;)

What I have described in post #68 was/is Pete's set-up, BEFORE any engine modifications.
Yet, it already lines up nicely with the 99:1 AIR/HydrOxy ratio, just as I wrote it 7 years earlier!

Despite that, you still insist that no ICE will ever run with that ratio!  Hello.....?!?

Did you know that properly made HydrOxy has 4 times the power of HydrOxy made by pure DC?
Then there are those who also 'claim' Ortho and Para spin of H and O under certain conditions.
(I don't necessarily agree with this but I include it here to try to make this explanation complete.)

Brad, in short, from your explanation of your set-up, I have concluded that your HHO is of low
quality. 
It has very little or no mono-atomic H and O.
It is all H2 and O2.
THAT is the reason why you need such a large volume.

The other thing you need to look at is the EFFICIENCY of your electrolyser.
You might ask, what has efficiency got to do with it??
A LOT!

Consider the following:
When you electrolyse water under ideal conditions but using DC power, you create only H2 and O2!
NO Brown's Gas whatsoever!
(I have already explained all this, long time ago, in my parers and in Forum posts.)

Once you break the Faraday "wall" (efficiency), you start getting more and more mono-atomic
H and O.
How do you know when that happens?
Just measure the gas volume and compare that to the energy consumed.
If you know the "gas laws", you will notice the unmistakable volume increase!

A brief explanation:
Say you have have 1L of di-atomic H2. (at atmospheric pressure)
Now split it into mono-atomic form (H) and it will occupy 2L of space!

To sum it up in a practical way: 
Normally, you should get around 2000L of gas from 1L of water.
IF, I repeat, IF we were clever enough to convert it ALL to mono-atomic H and O, we would have 4000L of gas!!!

Brad, in the last line of your post I detect a misunderstanding on your part:
Quote:
"...(except your pulse driver) which I can either purchase from you, or use my SG (as seen in pic) to obtain the correct pulse formation."

The nano-pulse power supply (which is being developed and is the subject of THIS thread) CANNOT be used with a series cell electrolyser as it can only drive a single cell.

Folks, the first time I ran an engine on Brown's Gas was about 18 years ago.

But here comes Mr Tommey Reed who has repeatedly stated that the entire HHO issue is a con, dead waste of time, energy and money!
If you don't believe this, just visit the 'overunity.com' Forum and you can read it yourself!

So, I have been wasting my time, my energy and money to develop what I have and have now shared with everyone who is interested.
You see, I must have been dreaming or hallucinating for the past 18 years.
What I have seen was/is not real, according to Tommey Reed!
Fascinating, isn't it?????

Quote:
"Clearly, fuel mixture is the key, not timing as some people believe when using plan HHO!
Laughable!"

If this isn't a clear, unmistakable attempt to ridicule and discredit me, my efforts and outright DISCOURAGE replications, I don't know what is!!

I accepted a membership in this Forum because I thought it would be 'different' from others.....
Enough said.
I rest my case.

Cheers,
Les Banki

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.09.22, 06:30:26
Once you break the Faraday "wall" (efficiency), you start getting more and more mono-atomic
H and O.
How do you know when that happens?
Just measure the gas volume and compare that to the energy consumed.
If you know the "gas laws", you will notice the unmistakable volume increase!

Les,

Are there any other obvious symptoms when you slip into the monatomic range?

I have a precision torch tip I use with HydrOxy and under certain conditions I see a slight flame color change.  Could this be helpful?  Is more pinkish than blue a positive sign or the opposite?

I'm never sure about production rate because as I change the duty cycle of the pulsing, I'm reducing the overall energy put into the cell, however I don't always see the flow rate change linearly as I make adjustments.  I also notice a significant lag in the pulse changes compared with the flow rate; having a little back pressure on the cell makes it even more difficult.

Some things you could probably help me rule out are:
*  Electrolyte  --  I'm using NaOH.  Would I have better success with KOH?
*  Bubbler  --  Should this be removed?  I'm using just distilled water but have tried also with a little vinegar.
*  Hose length  --  Should this be kept as short as possible?
*  Reservoir  --  Mine is pretty large but I only keep it about half full of liquid.  Should this be reduced?

If you can think of anything downstream of the electronics I can focus my attention on, that would be very helpful.  Still wrestling with the quality of the HydrOxy I'm producing.  If I can get this part figured out, the rest should come together fairly painlessly.

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.09.22, 07:36:26
Les,

Are there any other obvious symptoms when you slip into the monatomic range?

I have a precision torch tip I use with HydrOxy and under certain conditions I see a slight flame color change.  Could this be helpful?  Is more pinkish than blue a positive sign or the opposite?

I'm never sure about production rate because as I change the duty cycle of the pulsing, I'm reducing the overall energy put into the cell, however I don't always see the flow rate change linearly as I make adjustments.  I also notice a significant lag in the pulse changes compared with the flow rate; having a little back pressure on the cell makes it even more difficult.

Some things you could probably help me rule out are:
*  Electrolyte  --  I'm using NaOH.  Would I have better success with KOH?
*  Bubbler  --  Should this be removed?  I'm using just distilled water but have tried also with a little vinegar.
*  Hose length  --  Should this be kept as short as possible?
*  Reservoir  --  Mine is pretty large but I only keep it about half full of liquid.  Should this be reduced?

If you can think of anything downstream of the electronics I can focus my attention on, that would be very helpful.  Still wrestling with the quality of the HydrOxy I'm producing.  If I can get this part figured out, the rest should come together fairly painlessly.

Hey Matt, I was wondering if I could get some advice on the requirements for operating a HHO torch and maybe a link to some info for constructing a simple cell or stack
to supply the HHO, I can build a nano second pulser, I already have a couple that will do well under 1 uS, and I have use for a torch, but I don't want to rent the traditional gas cylinders and so forth.

Even if I fail to get the desired results related to this thread I would be happy to get a relatively safe working HHO torch.

My apologies to Les for going off topic a bit, I'm definitely not against HHO, it's just that I like to think of alternatives to conventional IC engines that are still internal combustion engines but not in the same old configuration.

Anyway Matt if you have any easy tips to pass on just PM me if it's not appropriate here. I hope no one took my danger comment as negative, it's actually a positive because powerful means useful, ie, a vegemite sandwich is safe but I cant heat a piece of steel rod so I can bend it with a sandwich.

I would like to use it as I make it which is I think how the torch must work. As I said I am safety trained with industrial gasses as I am a tradesman boilermaker, but I've never used a HHO generator-torch setup.

Les
Thanks for taking the time to post those comments ,as you have probably noticed  the specified Injector is being sent to Graham

I appreciate your patience ,I don't think for an instant that Brad means to call you a Liar ,We appreciate the opportunity to replicate your work and to learn the methods to properly proceed.

Have I missed the file where you discuss HHO production and the various states ?

Also,
I will speak with Tom today.



Respectfully
Chet

 

Quote from: Chet K on 2014.09.22, 09:33:33
Les
Thanks for taking the time to post those comments ,as you have probably noticed  the specified Injector is being sent to Graham

I appreciate your patience ,I don't think for an instant that Brad means to call you a Liar






Respectfully
Chet


 

Well i thought i made that perfectly clear in my post Quote: In saying all this,please understand that I'm not saying that what is claimed is not possible,or calling any one a lire. All i have stated is from my own experience from experiments. This is one case where i hope I'm very wrong.
Im not sure what part of that isnt clear?.

Quote from: Tommey Reed on 2014.09.21, 15:28:31
Hello all,



Adding intake air+oxygen makes it less powerful and HHO+added O= less fuel.

Hydrogen is what is needed, you need to take out the oxygen, because this is added from intake stroke of the engine, no need to add more.


Clearly, fuel mixture is the key, not timing as some people believe when using plan HHO!

Laughable!

Two incorrect statements Tommy.
Oxygen or an oxidiser is needed for hydrogen to burn. Adding ambient air creates a larger explosion when using HHO as fuel,as there is also nitrogen in ambient air-so you now have nitrous oxide,and we know what happens when you add nitrous oxide gas into the engines intake. Pure HHO creates an implosion,and by adding the ambient air,we get an explosion.The reason for this is the ambient air is super heated within the cylinder,and of course expands rapidly.

The timing is also crucial,as a HHO fuel mix ignites at a far greater rate than a fuel like gasoline. So the last thing you want is a HHO fuel mix igniting 8* BTDC-you will simply drive the piston back down before it passes TDC.

Quote from: TinMan on 2014.09.21, 03:49:05

This explained nothing,in fact it only adds to the confusion.

I am more than happy to replicate per the inventors spec's, including the injection system.

I agree. (and might add that its not easy to bite one's tongue in this thread),
but for a cost of $50 or so, and Peter's generous offer to provide the circuitry,
we shall, soon enough, each find out for ourselves.

@ Les

I have no problem with people analyzing my comment's-as long as they get it right.

Quote Les: Yet you have stated that water is not a fuel.  
Is that so?  
Because YOU say so???

No Les,not because i say so,because it is fact. Water is not a fuel-water that has been refined and processed into HHO then becomes a fuel,but it is no longer water,as water is a liquid and HHO is a gas.
I stand by my statement,and will only correct it if you can show any reference or link on the WWW that says water is a fuel while in the liquid state of water.

Quote: Despite that, you still insist that no ICE will ever run with that ratio!  Hello.....?!?
Yes,this is an incorrect statement by myself. I should have said-No ICE will run on this ratio using any fuel i know of.

Quote: Did you know that properly made HydrOxy has 4 times the power of HydrOxy made by pure DC?
No Les,i did not know this,and have never seen this.

Quote: Brad, in short, from your explanation of your set-up, I have concluded that your HHO is of low
quality.  
It has very little or no mono-atomic H and O.
It is all H2 and O2.
THAT is the reason why you need such a large volume.

This is very possable,and the very reason i am here on this thread-to find answers.

Quote: The other thing you need to look at is the EFFICIENCY of your electrolyser.
You might ask, what has efficiency got to do with it??
A LOT!

Yes,i know efficiency is the key,and the dry cell is suppose to be the most efficient cell out there,and so that is why i have one. Im guessing you don't agree with this?,and you could be right.

Quote: Brad, in the last line of your post I detect a misunderstanding on your part .The nano-pulse power supply (which is being developed and is the subject of THIS thread) CANNOT be used with a series cell electrolyser as it can only drive a single cell.
OK,yes i put 2 and 2 together,and came up with five. I looked at the picture of your new multiplate cell on post 68,and thought the driver was for that cell.

Quote: But here comes Mr Tommey Reed who has repeatedly stated that the entire HHO issue is a con.

I would think his statement was made because so many people have been con'd over the years with HHO wonder cell's that supposedly worked as stated. But like i said Quote: In saying all this,please understand that I'm not saying that what is claimed is not possible,or calling any one a liar. All i have stated is from my own experience from experiments. This is one case where i hope I'm very wrong.

Quote: I accepted a membership in this Forum because I thought it would be 'different' from others.....

Indeed it will be. Here there are people willing to spend there own time and money to replicate as the inventor request--> and i am one of those people. But please understand Les,that this cry of wolf has been made many time's,and people no longer go charging in blind,spending all there hard earned cash without asking a few questions,and making some claims that are backed up with there own research. In this case,it would seem you have some kind of gas we are yet to see and experiment with.

My apologies if you think i was trying to shoot you down,as that was not my intention.

Brad

I have put this together and thought it might be a good place to post it for ref:

Now there are two important things to note:-

1.   atomic hydrogen has a half life of 0.3 sec

2.   H2 split into H+H ends up with each atom spining in opposite directions (magnetic spin), because of this they can be separated so as to maintain atomic hydrogen for up to several days, not easy, but can be done.

regards

Mike 8)

PS the é should be formula, "goes to". Seems changing from open source writer to pdf it did not work properly C.C

Quote from: Centraflow on 2014.09.22, 17:32:31
I have put this together and thought it might be a good place to post it for ref:

Now there are two important things to note:-

1.   atomic hydrogen has a half life of 0.3 sec

2.   H2 split into H+H ends up with each atom spining in opposite directions (magnetic spin), because of this they can be separated so as to maintain atomic hydrogen for up to several days, not easy, but can be done.

regards

Mike 8)


PS the é should be formula, "goes to". Seems changing from open source writer to pdf it did not work properly C.C

Dear Mike.

That short post explained a lot !! Thank you.

So we need that very energetic material to enter our cylinder. How strong does the magnetic field need to be ? Could we achieve it using permanent magnets ?

The alternative is to have a cell so close to our intake that, that 0.3 seconds half life can't happen until its too late !!

If we divide 3000 rpm by 4, that equals 750, divided by 60, equals 12.5 inductions per second ??  Is this right ?? I am using the premise that there is one induction stroke over the two cycles in a 4 stroke engine i.e. a quarter !! For the UK 50 HZ equals 3000 rpm.

Is my mathematics correct ??  ???

Cheers Graham.

Quote from: TinMan on 2014.09.22, 12:40:52

Here there are people willing to spend there own time and money to replicate as the inventor request--> and i am one of those people. ...

...and I, upon further consideration, won't be one of them.

The JET 21 fuel injector being used here is rated to operate at just over 10 psi,
not much when you consider that it requires around 15 psi to inflate a toy party balloon.
Nevertheless, this application will require a container vessel with a pressure relief valve
to hold the gas as its continually being produced by the electrolyser and relieved via the injector.

With all due respect, I wont be participating in a project requiring the maintenance of any amount
of electrolyser gas, under any amount of pressure, as its not exactly my first day at this rodeo either,
but will follow the project with interest, although as usual, the titled thread has predictably gone off topic.

Quote from: Grumage on 2014.09.22, 19:37:39
If we divide 3000 rpm by 4, that equals 750, divided by 60, equals 12.5 inductions per second ??  Is this right ?? I am using the premise that there is one induction stroke over the two cycles in a 4 stroke engine i.e. a quarter !! For the UK 50 HZ equals 3000 rpm.

Is my mathematics correct ??  ???

Why 4 Grumage?

If we do 3000 revs / minute, we have 50 revs / second and we inject every other rev, that's 25 injections / second.

And during the intake stroke we can inject at best 180 degrees of that stroke.  So this gives us:

Trigger signal every 40ms at TDC.
Pulse duration is 1/2 of one rev (@ 3000rpm this is 100 half revs / second) or 10ms.

Now check my math...

All,

I have decided that from now on, I will write a series of SHORT posts, dealing with a single issue, comment or question.
I think that will be easier on everyone, including me!

I still say that some of you have not bothered to read the documents I have provided and are just jumping to conclusions.
Therefore, I now attach some of the IMPORTANT ones, hoping that perhaps when they are right in front of you, you will READ them?
That would certainly eliminate a lot of misunderstandings!

Graham,

Sorry, your 'math' is NOT correct.  (Matt is correct, he just expressed it differently!)
Please read the attached files and things will become clear.
Just remember, TIMING is everything!
'Stuff up' the TIMING and you will get no-where!  Guaranteed!!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Quote from: Farmhand on 2014.09.22, 09:14:35

Even if I fail to get the desired results related to this thread I would be happy to get a relatively safe working HHO torch.

My apologies to Les for going off topic a bit, I'm definitely not against HHO, it's just that I like to think of alternatives to conventional IC engines that are still internal combustion engines but not in the same old configuration.
I hope no one took my danger comment as negative, it's actually a positive because powerful means useful, ie, a vegemite sandwich is safe but I cant heat a piece of steel rod so I can bend it with a sandwich.

I would like to use it as I make it which is I think how the torch must work. As I said I am safety trained with industrial gasses as I am a tradesman boilermaker, but I've never used a HHO generator-torch setup.

Farmhand,

Since you have expressed an interest in welding with HHO, I can assist you since I have also designed a COMPLETE welder too, many years ago.
I have attached scanned copies of the printed brochure so you get an idea what it is like.
If you like, we can get back to this later....
However, even at this point in time I advise you (or anyone who wants to 'play' with this) to use a solenoid for gas shut off.
That is because if you don't shut off the gas quickly enough, it BACKFIRES, EVERY time!  Guaranteed!

The other attachments belong to my previous post....
I am sure you guys will sort it out....!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Dear All.

I am standing firm !!

The "Otto" or 4 stroke IC Engine uses  2 revolutions of the crank to complete it's cycle.

The induction stroke is half of the first revolution second half is compression. Start of second revolution, power stroke followed by exhaust.

My simple logic is telling me that induction is therefore one quarter of the running speed!!

Am I correct?

Cheers Graham.

Les
thank you for the links and your patience.[I will repost those links here at the top of this page]

thx
Chet

Quote from: Grumage on 2014.09.23, 10:20:41
Dear All.

I am standing firm !!

The "Otto" or 4 stroke IC Engine uses  2 revolutions of the crank to complete it's cycle.

The induction stroke is half of the first revolution second half is compression. Start of second revolution, power stroke followed by exhaust.

My simple logic is telling me that induction is therefore one quarter of the running speed!!

Am I correct?

Cheers Graham.

Edit-had to rethink that Graham
Induction stroke is 1/2 the running speed,as it happens once every 2 revolutions.If your motor is running at 3000 RPM,then you will have 1500 induction strokes.(4 strokes,but 2 revolutions) So it is 1500 divided by 60 seconds =25. So you will be injecting 25 times every second,or once every 40 milliseconds. The duration of the induction stroke is half this,so you inject every 40 milliseconds for a period of 20 milliseconds for the full induction stroke.

Brad

Quote from: TinMan on 2014.09.23, 12:36:59
Edit-had to rethink that Graham
Induction stroke is 1/2 the running speed,as it happens once every 2 revolutions.If your motor is running at 3000 RPM,then you will have 1500 induction strokes.(4 strokes,but 2 revolutions) So it is 1500 divided by 60 seconds =25. So you will be injecting 25 times every second,or once every 40 milliseconds. The duration of the induction stroke is half this,so you inject every 40 milliseconds for a period of 20 milliseconds for the full induction stroke.

Brad

Dear Brad.

Ok I see where you are coming from but from my perspective I still see Induction as being a quarter of the complete cycle.

The main reason behind me pushing this however is the fact that we could effectively beat the 300 mS half life that Mike mentioned yesterday and get the super energetic gas into the cylinder !! Mike told me via Skype that it is quality not quantity that is required.

My apologies for brain teasing !   :)

Cheers Graham.

Quote from: Grumage on 2014.09.23, 13:18:51
Dear Brad.

Ok I see where you are coming from but from my perspective I still see Induction as being a quarter of the complete cycle.

The main reason behind me pushing this however is the fact that we could effectively beat the 300 mS half life that Mike mentioned yesterday and get the super energetic gas into the cylinder !! Mike told me via Skype that it is quality not quantity that is required.

My apologies for brain teasing !   :)

Cheers Graham.

It's quite simple to work out Graham. All you do is ask your self-how many times will the inlet valve open in 3000revolutions,as we know the induction cycle is when the inlet valve opens. So the answer is 1500. So we have a motor running at 3000 RPM,and the inlet valve opens 1500 times in that minute. 1500 divided by 60 seconds = 25. So our inlet valve opens 25 times every second,or once every 40 milliseconds-as dose our exaust valve right befor that.As there is both the exaust stroke and inlet stroke in the same revolution,we know each must be half in time of that 40 millisecond's,.So each complete stroke of the piston takes 20 millisecond's.

In regards to the 300millisecond time limit-well all i can say is yes,i understand this fully.

Might be helpful to think of 2 and 4 cycle engines as 2 and 4 stroke engines, the conrod is attached to the crank and the piston makes two strokes for each revolution of the crank one up stoke and one down stroke, a four stroke engine fires once every two revolutions of the crank = 4 strokes, a two stroke engine fires every revolution, which is why a two stroke engine can produce more power for weight and work better as single cylinder engines. Large bore single cylinder 4 stroke engines like for example a 600 cc motorcycle engine make quite lumpy power but of course a 4 stroke engine is more efficient than 2 stroke. 4 stroke brush cutters are not good, the best brush cutters are 2 stroke. The best motocross/scrambler bikes are two strokes, a YZ 465 scrambler built in 1980's can eat modern 600cc 4 strokes for breakfast in the bush. The fastest and best Grand Prix motorcycles were four cylinder two stroke engines. I don't watch Grand Prix bike racing any more because now they are all 4 stroke engines. If ever one wants to buy the very best radical road bike for gong nuts on I would suggest finding an RZ500 or similar.  ;) Not many left in one piece.

Brads right a four stroke engine opens it's intake valve once every two revolutions of the crank, once ever four strokes of the piston. The only way to modify the opening and closing of the valves is to alter the camshaft, lumpy cams in the old days opened the valves wide and quickly, double valve springs and so forth help to close them quicker. If the valve times are too wide problems can occur at high revs due to physical restrictions of valve movements. Two stroke don't have that problem.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=4+cycle+engine&client=firefox-a&hs=CHq&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&tbm=isch&imgil=9OQjCq1dJpJdIM%253A%253Bk7QjePWNg3THNM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ict4us.com%25252Fr.kuijt%25252Fen_strokeengine.htm&source=iu&pf=m&fir=9OQjCq1dJpJdIM%253A%252Ck7QjePWNg3THNM%252C_&usg=__QJVmrdImYjGwTCxuYQC_mJ7fHjo%3D&biw=1280&bih=647&ved=0CEEQyjc&ei=OawhVJLAK4Om8AWy1YGAAg#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=9OQjCq1dJpJdIM%253A%3Bk7QjePWNg3THNM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ict4us.com%252Fr.kuijt%252Fimages%252Fen_strokeengine.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ict4us.com%252Fr.kuijt%252Fen_strokeengine.htm%3B450%3B296

I think 4 and 2 stroke conventional IC engines are outdated and not very efficient by design, which can never be overcome while the piston pushes down on a rod that is near the top of the rotation of the the big end. A lot of the force would seem to want to push the crank down out of the engine but because it cannot it deflects the thrust to the side to rotate the crank. Seems wasteful to me. Kinda like trying to improve a steam engine in a way. I don't think the future will have IC engines in the current configuration getting very efficient overall.
..

In my opinion reliability wins out over efficiency for a transport vehicle anyway. When HHO can power a car reliably and similarly to how my 2001 Holden runs on unleaded then I will be impressed. It can take me across the country at almost 10 klms a liter or it can barrel down the highway at over 200 klms per hour it's reliable safe and not overly expensive to buy or run. However I cannot service and tune it like I used to do with my 1971 HQ premier, which would make a pancake out of the 2001 Commodore if they had a head on collision.  :(

Hi Farmhand,

Nice, 10 years of MX here, did have old engines from Andre Vromans or Hakan Carlqist! ;-))

--------------

Nice tested alternative for pistons engines and perfect in combi with HHO: Take just a Rotary-Vane air-motor, PTFE / Teflon with Bronze particle filled vane's.

Enter / Inject some HHO at the entrance , ignite, and rotation,  at the closed exit (back-side) of the roter automatically the contraction, drain with small small gear-pump the rest or remaining water.


Regards, Johan

Quote from: Grumage on 2014.09.23, 10:20:41
Dear All.

I am standing firm !!

My simple logic is telling me that induction is therefore one quarter of the running speed!!

Am I correct?

All I know is you guys drive your cars on the wrong side of the road.   ;D

http://www.animatedengines.com/otto.html

Best if you don't mix speed with angle.  The rule I have always used since the days of building Formula SAE engine management systems is to think only about angle, 0 - 720 degrees.  Once you have it certain in your head WHERE everything happens, then go back and look at it again WHEN things happen.  Plot those events out for three or four different crankshaft speeds and it will become clear what your boundaries are.

Fuel injection is one of those inverse relationships where the faster the engine turns (more shaft horsepower), the less time you have to push more air and fuel into the engine.  The concept is called volumetric efficiency and is what sets the limitations of an ICE.

As Les has stated, you can inject fuel during the entire 720 degree cycle provided your intake valve is properly sealing, by doing this however beyond just the 180 degrees of intake value opening, all you will accomplish is to richen the fuel mixture, something we don't want to do with HydrOxy.  Here we want the leanest mixture possible, so we need to move the HydrOxy rapidly, with low pressure at the most optimum time, when the intake valve is open and the piston is drawing in air.  So 20ms at 3000 RPM is way too long.  At most 10ms plus the lag of the injector opening, minus the lag of the injector closing.  We want no residual HydrOxy in the intake manifold; it all needs to be sucked into the engine.  The terminology I use is fuel charge and for HydrOxy the fuel charge must be completely aspirated for each intake stroke.

Les has it exactly right, timing is everything.

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.09.23, 19:14:33

Fuel injection is one of those inverse relationships where the faster the engine turns (more shaft horsepower), the less time you have to push more air and fuel into the engine.  The concept is called volumetric efficiency and is what sets the limitations of an ICE.

As Les has stated, you can inject fuel during the entire 720 degree cycle provided your intake valve is properly sealing, by doing this however beyond just the 180 degrees of intake value opening, all you will accomplish is to richen the fuel mixture, something we don't want to do with HydrOxy.  Here we want the leanest mixture possible, so we need to move the HydrOxy rapidly, with low pressure at the most optimum time, when the intake valve is open and the piston is drawing in air.  So 20ms at 3000 RPM is way too long.  At most 10ms plus the lag of the injector opening, minus the lag of the injector closing.  We want no residual HydrOxy in the intake manifold; it all needs to be sucked into the engine.  The terminology I use is fuel charge and for HydrOxy the fuel charge must be completely aspirated for each intake stroke.

Les has it exactly right, timing is everything.

Matt, Brad,

I am glad to see that both of you understand the timing issue!
(There are probably others who understand also but cannot post because they are on "read only".)

I any case, there is one very important document which has been over looked by just about everyone is the "4 stroke engine timing cycle saw tooth" I have created. 
(it is named 'engtsawt.gc1.pdf' in the schematics Folder)

It is a graphical representation of the engine's work cycle.

It explains the HEART of my WFGP design and your success (or failure) depends on it!

Yes, this is the HI-TECH stuff which you need to understand to do the IGNITION and INJECTION timing for YOUR your engine and yes, you will need to refer to this chart during the engine timing set-up!!

As I have explained in the 'Igninje5 circuit description.doc', you will need a dual trace oscilloscope to do the timing adjustments.
Those who have a 4 trace oscilloscope will be able to see the pulses from the Hall switch, the 'saw tooth', the ignition and injection pulses all at the same time!
And guess what! 
What you will see is EXACTLY what you see in my "4 stroke engine timing cycle saw tooth" drawing!!!

So, I suggest you print out the chart and make a CLOSE study of it while carefully reading the circuit description!
Oh, I know its 11 pages but so be it!

I am attaching the 'engtsawt.gc1.pdf' file to this post and by the way, almost all the files I attach to my posts are part of the WFGP Folders.

Cheers,
Les Banki

Peter,

Attached are the pcb layouts for the 2 boards, plus the slightly modified circuit diagram (test points added for the second board).

If you wish, you can use them as they are. (no need to re-draw them)

Note that I no longer use screw terminal connectors where I can avoid them!
I use Quick connector terminals 6.35mm and 4.8mm.
The only 'caveat' is that you need a decent 'ratchet' type crimping tool to fit the wire connectors.
(automotive type crimping tools are NOT good enough for most jobs)

Note also that I use 'loop' type test points (TP) but other types can also be used.

The transformer is an EPCOS ETD49 (20 pin).
The heath sinks are standard types here but may differ from what is available in other parts of the world.

[For all who read this, once again, please understand that the second board (with the transformer) is an EXPERIMENTAL circuit....]

That is all.

Cheers,
Les Banki

FarmHand
A Holden....
here is one of your countrymen who has done something impressive with "hydrogen" and a Holden.
http://www.clean-air.org/commodore.html

perhaps invite him here to learn a much better way ?[and less costly]


thx
Chet

Thanks Les
I have emailed Grace for a quote for 10 of each PCB.  O0

Regards
Peter

For anyone in the USA looking to order the specified JET 21  injector from POLIAUTO
Western Union can do this for you to avoid Bank Wire transfer issues [COD transaction at your local Western Union Rep]

I also have some Leads to follow up from Doug H. at the American Hydrogen Association for a possible Domestic source.

I have invited Doug and his associates to view here .

Will keep you posted.

thx
Chet

OK guys PCBs are being made, i will let everyone know when they land  O0

Quote from: Chet K on 2014.09.24, 13:09:17
FarmHand
A Holden....
here is one of your countrymen who has done something impressive with "hydrogen" and a Holden.
http://www.clean-air.org/commodore.html

perhaps invite him here to learn a much better way ?[and less costly]


thx
Chet

Unless I missed something, I would have left the original distributor and ignition system in place(single coil), clamped the advance or provided a dashboard adjustable advance. He could have picked off the injector timing from a high tension lead from the previous firing cylinder (capacitive) and added the necessary delay to allow the appropriate injector to open at the prescribed time. This would have shaved a lot of the cost.

Still, an admirable project.

Quote from: Chet K on 2014.09.24, 21:19:20
For anyone in the USA looking to order the specified JET 21  injector from POLIAUTO
Western Union can do this for you to avoid Bank Wire transfer issues [COD transaction at your local Western Union Rep]

I also have some Leads to follow up from Doug H. at the American Hydrogen Association for a possible Domestic source.

I have invited Doug and his associates to view here .

Will keep you posted.

thx
Chet

Please ignore my alarm, but that thing looks to me like a rolling bomb, if he was rear ended and the thing blew up and killed others he would be in deep kaka me thinks.

..

What to do with the HHO can be worked out, solid results showing the 8 times Faraday limit would be nice to get from several people. Not keen on gas cylinders in cars even LPG, even produce on demand systems would need a safety to shut off production if the system is compromised in an accident.

Chet on a side note about the 1980 commodore, it's an old car, I had one of those as well, mine was 1981 first of the VH model, those cars are almost impossible to roll over and still had carby's.

My 2001 VS commodore, of course has a computer controlled fuel injected V6 engine, it has three ignition coils and the engine is packaged very nicely, the pictured engine is in my vehicle and has done only less than 90 000 klms with all services done at the dealer, 1 previous owner who was dead when I bought the car from his estate.
But the engine is designed to run on unleaded fuel with a specific octane range. The engine is designed for the fuel mainly, a different fuel should require a engine to be designed for that fuel.

Now would anyone in their right mind ruin that solid workhorse engine by trying to run it on hydrogen. 1980 commodores people set on fire for fun, they don't matter any more.

Anyway the most important thing in my opinion is to be able to get enough HHO from the input power to make it possible to power things very cheaply, if that is shown to be possible by many people then engines will get designed to run on it, by car manufacturers or similar.

..

Farmhand
Les has mentioned there are fellows driving cars around your country on His technology [or similar?] for over a decade.
I suppose we shall see ?
BTW ,when I saw those cylinders in the back of the Hydrogen car I also felt concern ,but driving around with a tank full of water
and not polluting the environment,  is the goal here..


Chet
PS
Matt,  I see your post below [will watch later 4 AM here]
I want to add this link for consideration from Mike N [Centraflow]


That is to say The Hydrogen remains in a more energetic state for a very short time,  then becomes more passive [for our purposes]
as Les has said many times "timing is everything"

I'd settle for this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3GDjVskYIs

Provided I can disconnect my home from the grid.

Quote from: Chet K on 2014.09.26, 07:58:45
Farmhand
Les has mentioned there are fellows driving cars around your country on His technology [or similar?] for over a decade.
I suppose we shall see ?

Chet

No-this is something you will never get to see Chet.
What you will get is the same old story-it's top secret,or the men in black have forbidden the owners to share there tech with anyone-if they do,of course they will just disappear,or wind up in a ditch on the side of the road.

I was born,and have lived here in Australia all my life,and have never heard a thing about any car running on water-and i am in the right circle of people to hear about things like this.

Water is not a fuel-it is an ash. It is the ash of HHO ,and ash doesn't burn. It is however an ash that can be turned back into the fuel that created it,and that's pretty cool.

Brad
When I said "we shall see"  I did not mean from Les,  I meant from Our replication

Parts are coming and all the info is there [thanks to Les].

thx
Chet

Break 2 H-H, break O=O and in recombination, 4 H-O bonds are made and release energy.

Using the bond energies of H-H 104 kcal/mole, O-O 119 kcal/mole, and H-O 111kcal/mole  we have

327kcal to split H2O and 444kcal are released as energy when reforming giving a net gain of 117kcal.

we get per kg of H2O  1,361,750 kj of energy

this is all at 100% efficiency of splitting H2O

regards

Mike 8)

Quote from: TinMan on 2014.09.26, 14:08:24

No-this is something you will never get to see Chet.
What you will get is the same old story-it's top secret,or the men in black have forbidden the owners to share there tech with anyone-if they do,of course they will just disappear,or wind up in a ditch on the side of the road.

I was born,and have lived here in Australia all my life,and have never heard a thing about any car running on water-and i am in the right circle of people to hear about things like this.

You are not alone. There is no visible evidence of that in North America either.

Mookie

we intuitively know and have been taught that water has ENORMOUS energy locked into it.perhaps there have been secrets ?

Secrets.... another word for Suppression

Benevolence is an attribute that does not come naturally to some, especially when they feel the pangs of greed or financial insecurity.
The Chinese ran an empire for 5000 years on the secret of a worm that spun silk....

For 5000 years men died trying to find the secret !

is it a secret that water has enormous energy locked into it ?

we have been taught certain things and others  "not so much" .

Now we have the internet , and the tower of Babble is getting reassembled a stone at a time ,soon we will all be able to speak with each other again in real time with true comprehension...

very interesting time we live in ....

I assume nothing regarding "Secrets"/Suppression,  and what is truly possible, I have payed attention to history.


Here we will replicate the work of Les Banki with Gratitude and appreciation,  and here as always we will share !


Its how we roll...

respectfully

Chet
Ps
To concerned parties Augusto [PaliAuto] confirmed shipment yesterday.

Quote from: Chet K on 2014.09.27, 07:30:30

Here we will replicate the work of Les Banki with Gratitude and appreciation,  and here as always we will share !

And on embarking on this replication, hopefully "we" are all in agreement
with the fact that there is no visible evidence on this planet
of a car ever running on water.

Mookie

here we run a corvette on Water  [thanks Matt]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3GDjVskYIs

most interesting is the comment at 12:10

Secrets....Suppression or plain ignorance ?

I suspect Greed !

regarding the MO of the above video ,,Storage and release with heat.

Chris Hunter shared a similar effect with Zeolite and Propane ,he called it a solid state compressor.

It turns Propane Gas to liquid just by coming into contact,  and then you can release the liquid back to gas with  a one Volt charge.

Ridiculous energy savings and no moving parts...

is it a secret ???



Chet

Quote from: Chet K on 2014.09.27, 13:07:31

here we run a corvette on Water  [thanks Matt]

...I watched a 12 minute video clip of two guys talking behind a parked car.

Between TinMan and myself, we have Australia and Canada both covered;
Is there anyone here that can point to a USA street address
where we can see a car running on water?

Mookie

OK guys, here we go AGAIN! 
This post is not a "shorty"!

First:
Water as fuel

What do you really want?
Definitions (names) or REALITY?

I have dealt with this issue in the past, more than once!
Amongst other things, I have stated that water is being used to fuel ICE.
NO ifs, NO buts.
This "fuel", in its original state, is the SAFEST fuel on Earth.
It even puts out fire!

This "fuel" is conditioned in order to access the energy it holds.
The conditioning process (in this case) is ELECTROLYSIS.
Oh, but there is a "hitch"....
To this day, despite plenty of physical evidence to the contrary, the "learned" men of "science" are still claiming that you cannot get more energy out than you put into the electrolysis process.

Which is an absurdly FALSE claim!

Make no mistake, WATER contains/holds an ENORMOUS amount of energy.
ANY argument to the contrary is downright STUPID!
Period.

Does anyone seriously expect the SELF APPOINTED CRIMINAL RULING "ELITE" CONTROL FREAKS to re-name/classify water as FUEL??
Are you nuts?

Further, some posters here imply that if they haven't heard about something, it does not exist, or it never happened!

Talk about IGNORANCE, ATTITUDE and EGO!
My goodness!

Well, have any of you ever heard of Stephen Horvath and his 1974 Ford Fairlane which was presented on Australian national television in 1979?
Yes, I watched that presentation!
Did you/do you know that he had a Patent on that system and it happens to be the most detailed, accurate and comprehensive patent I have ever laid my eyes on?  (No, its not just my opinion!)

Did you/do you know about the 'Motor Manual' magazine carrying a six page article titled:
"Limitless energy from HYDROGEN POWER" by Paul Harrington.?
Yes, it was/is all about Stephen Horvath (a nuclear physicist, by the way) and his technology.
There are pictures, diagrams and explanations.

The outstanding point to note WHY the demonstration was done with Hydrogen from a hydride tank in the boot instead of using the original, patented method which derives it from WATER!!
Anyone with half a brain between their ears (instead of saw dust) would instantly know that he would NEVER be allowed to demonstrate it in its original form!!
I still have that original magazine....
(scanned copy of front cover is attached)

Did you/do you know that Yull Brown almost literally 'wore out' about half a dozen ICE, running them on 'his' gas?  (Brown's Gas)
When he phoned me (from the US were he lived at the time) to request that I should not use the name 'Brown's Gas' in my welder brochure and elsewhere, he said to me:
"When I get back to Australia, I will show you HOW to run engines on this gas!"

Now, have a long, hard look at the front cover of the January 1978 issue of 'Electronics Australia' magazine! 
If you open the PDF version, (also attached) you will see more fine details but pay particular attention to the engine on the bench!
(Inside is a 5 page article with pictures/illustrations/explanations by Jim Rowe, the editor of the magazine.)

As you may recall from my other posts, 1979 was also the year when Peter H., the Greek/Australian genius started using his water powered car and informed the "government" about it! 
(HUGE mistake, which he readily admits and regrets!)
All that happened 35 years ago and if some of you have no knowledge of these facts, it means
'JACK SHIT' and will certainly not change documented history!

Then, many, many years later, during one of my monthly 'lectures' (which went on for several years
on various subjects), I was telling the audience (usually between 50-100 people) about Peter and his
water car.  Suddenly, a woman from the audience stood up and said:
"I am Peggy, Peter's sister.  I just want you to know that everything Les said about my brother is true."
Everyone was stunned, including me!
At a later conversation with Peggy, she told me that Peter and her have attended another one of my 'lectures' without announcing their presence!

Again, I repeat, I am NOT here to convince anyone about anything!
If you choose not to believe any of it, it is your loss, not mine!

I post information here for those who are interested to learn about FACTS, not BS!

I have personally known Peter H. for over 20 years, have seen his car and he has given me a certain amount of information about his set-up.

Since he moved away from here (which was only 10 minutes drive from here), I had two phone conversations with him.  The last one was about 3 years ago.
Here is something which I am now publishing for the first time, fully aware that it will be disbelieved/disputed by some:
During that conversation, I mentioned Stanley Meyer.
Peter dropped a bombshell on me by saying that he was the one who gave Stan all the info!
I was simply flabbergasted! 
I didn't even know they knew each other!
Enough said.

So what has all this got to do with us today??
Perhaps nothing.
I just want you all to understand where I stand.
Perhaps I should have responded to all the 'smart-ass' comments but I have better things to do with my remaining time and I am sure at least some of you DO understand that.

By now, THIS thread is well and truly "off topic" but if this is what you all want, I can certainly give you MORE to cure your ignorance and perhaps wake you up from your slumber!!

Those who are looking for "visible evidence" for water cars running on the streets anywhere are unbelievably NAIVE!!

That will only happen after all of the SELF APPOINTED CRIMINAL RULING "ELITE" CONTROL FREAKS have been eliminated!  Yes, eliminated!
(perhaps unbeknown to most of you, that process is well and truly in progress!)

Cheers,
Les Banki

Quote from: Mookie
...

Is there anyone here that can point to a USA street address
where we can see a car running on water?

English, being the very strange language that it is, offers
several meanings for "running on water." ;) >:-) 8) :o

First example.

Second example.

Tutorial.

On a much more serious note, attached are three of Stephen
Horvath's patents which provide very interesting details.

Quote Les: Talk about IGNORANCE, ATTITUDE and EGO!
 
IGNORANCE, ATTITUDE and EGO comes from those who get upset with others who dont believe in !words only! as proof that the known laws of physics are incorrect. A true scientist will be able to back up there claims with physical proof-no if's,but's or why's-->no men in black rubbish. They will also present accurate information when trying to show others that they know the facts.

Quote:Well, have any of you ever heard of Stephen Horvath and his 1974 Ford Fairlane which was presented on Australian national television in 1979?
Yes, I watched that presentation!
Did you/do you know that he had a Patent on that system and it happens to be the most detailed, accurate and comprehensive patent I have ever laid my eyes on?  (No, its not just my opinion!)

Did you/do you know about the 'Motor Manual' magazine carrying a six page article titled:
"Limitless energy from HYDROGEN POWER" by Paul Harrington.?
Yes, it was/is all about Stephen Horvath (a nuclear physicist, by the way) and his technology.
There are pictures, diagrams and explanations.

!!The outstanding point to note WHY the demonstration was done with Hydrogen from a hydride tank in the boot instead of using the original, patented method which derives it from WATER!!
Anyone with half a brain between their ears (instead of saw dust) would instantly know that he would NEVER be allowed to demonstrate it in its original form!!

Here are some facts about that news release in 1979. In 1979 sir Joh Bjelke peterson was queensland's premier at the time,and it was him that organised the presnetation. Joh wanted to be the first to release this new found tech,as he was all for cleaner energy systems. Here is what took place.
The car was ready to go,and all camera's were up and running. But apparently some one run off with the key's O0 ,and of course the car could never be shown running-->whats the chances of that C.C

Now the real reason they had to use hydride tanks was because his system was not yet finished-didnt work yet. Stephen Horvaths system was based around muon-catalysed fusion,and was not completed by 1979.

A quote from Stephen's biography
By 1979, Stephen had developed the prototype for a car powered through fusion-enhanced hydrogen burn as part of his ongoing research into alternative fuel sources. When the then Queensland Premier, Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen learned of the project, he invited Stephen to display his work publicly. Unfortunately, Sir Joh's foresight to bring about a pollution free hydrogen economy has not eventuated as yet.

As a result, an announcement was made which put Stephen in an awkward position, since he knew his work was incomplete and he had never wanted to promote the "hydrogen car" project as a finished product.

Nature is not very kind to inventors and entrepreneurs, not all of the innovative ideas have come to fruition - although each one has deepened Stephen's knowledge and understanding of his ultimate scientific goal - to unlock the secret to releasing energy via sustained muon-catalysed fusion.

Les-we have heard it all before-time and time again. And time after time no one has ever shown without doubt that a looped HHO system has ever worked-this is fact. We get the same old excuses you have posted here on this thread-EG:Anyone with half a brain between their ears (instead of saw dust) would instantly know that he would NEVER be allowed to demonstrate it in its original form!!
Like i said,and most here have seen time after time-same old men in black rubbish-only this time the inventor had the backing of the queensland premier,but some one lost the keys :P . You said you watched the presentation on TV,but what you failed to mention is two things-1,the car was never started in one presentation,and 2-the one that showed the car running was not using his hydrogen system-it was simply a demondstration showing that an ICE could run on hydrogen-this we already know.

You now have people here(good people) spending time and money on parts for a system that has never been proven to work,only words,words and more words. I may have missed it some where,but how dangerous is this muon-catalysed fusion system?. :o

Hi All,

I have been thinking of the possibility to make an PCB based electrolysis cell system.
Using stainless steel will result in a very heavy cell design. So I looked for other alternatives.

I think it will be possible to make a light unit by using a gold plated PCB with thickness 1mm
and rubber gaskets also 1mm thick. The weight of the PCB plates for an 121 plate cell system
will be approx. 9 Kg. Then add the rubber gaskets and some plexiglass end plates, tubes etc.
My design will be very simple to build. And I think it should be possible to laser cut the rubber
gaskets and the plexiglass parts for the cell design.

What do you think? Is this possible?

Peter: I can mail you the Gerber files if you want to check how much 121 PCB's will cost.
        ( PM me your email address if you want the design files.)

GL.

Hi GL
If you ever need cheap PCB's Grace is the person to use, if you ever need some, you can arrange payment to grace but get them sent to me and i will post them on to you if that makes it cheaper in your country, but yes if you wanted me to get a price i can do that also.

I am wondering how robust Nickle would be, it's a pretty robust metal from corrosion i think, it's used in the alkaline Edison battery with no degradation over a 100 year use period, i think it is Potassium Hydroxide or sodium hydroxide they use as well, and Nickle can be home plated.

Peter

Quote from: Peterae on 2014.09.28, 08:15:40
Hi GL
If you ever need cheap PCB's Grace is the person to use, if you ever need some, you can arrange payment to grace but get them sent to me and i will post them on to you if that makes it cheaper in your country, but yes if you wanted me to get a price i can do that also.

I am wondering how robust Nickle would be, it's a pretty robust metal from corrosion i think, it's used in the alkaline Edison battery with no degredation over a 100 year use period, and Nickle can be home plated.

Peter

Peter,

I can never afford to buy so many PCB plates here in Norway. It will cost me approx. 10.000,- NOK. Way too much.
The factory can gold plate PCBs. The factory uses ENIG Gold (Ni/Au) system. The gold layer is very thin so it doesn't
cost much. So if the first gold layer is broken then the next layer will be Nickle anyway.

I can email you the design files just to see what price you can get. Remember to specify 1mm PCB, GOLD plated.

GL.

The PCBs are done and on their way  O0

Hi Groundloop
Yes i understand your boards are expensive in your country, what i am saying is if you need pcbs made, talk to Grace via email, arrange payment to her but get them shipped to me and i will post them on to you, this way you pay via paypal to grace her cheap prices and i post them to you, this way you have cheap PCBs, I can post on anyboard you get made with no problem  O0

Peter

Quote from: Peterae on 2014.09.28, 08:37:59
Hi Groundloop
Yes i understand your boards are expensive in your country, what i am saying is if you need pcbs made, talk to Grace via email, arrange payment to her but get them shipped to me and i will post them on to you, this way you pay via paypal to grace her cheap prices and i post them to you, this way you have cheap PCBs, I can post on anyboard you get made with no problem  O0

Peter

Peter,

I don't have PayPal or any other means to buy anything on the net or via email.

At this stage I only want to see how much you must pay for the boards. Can you
PM you email address, and I will contact you asap, with the design and PCB files.

GL.

Why can nobody on this planet find just one car that runs on water?

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.09.28, 03:52:56

Those who are looking for "visible evidence" for water cars running on the streets anywhere are unbelievably NAIVE!!

That will only happen after all of the SELF APPOINTED CRIMINAL RULING "ELITE" CONTROL FREAKS have been eliminated!  Yes, eliminated!
(perhaps unbeknown to most of you, that process is well and truly in progress!)

Cheers,
Les Banki

...because Les Banki said so.

There is one big problem in the EU, I don't know about the rest of the world, but to get an inspection certificate the car must not be altered from the manufacturers spec's

That is the stop safe guard >:(

regards

Mike 8)

I do know people that retro fit LPG and electric conversion and they pass the MOT test OK, even the insurance companies treat them as they were originally as long as you tell them, although i would not like to mention Hydrogen LOL

The governments have givin Us a very big stick to beat them into submission ...

Global warming

Water Fuel would end this Horrific and catastrophic "global Warming"  :D

pitty the polotition that would stand in the way of That.

PS
Les
This project is in no way derailed nor is this thread ,quite the contrary we are proceeding as planned.

Quote from: Chet K on 2014.09.28, 10:49:41

This project is in no way derailed nor is this thread, quite the contrary we are proceeding as planned.

...and I believe that everyone reading or commenting here wants to see it succeed.

But calling people that read or post here stupid, ignorant, egotistic,
endowed with half a brain, smart-assed, and naive requires a reply.
He is the only one here doing that.

Mookie
Please do not think for an instant that you stand on the same Ground as TinMan when you DEMAND information....

He is a replicator here and has willingly Shared Thousand of hours of his hard work ,Time and money...

You on the other hand have refused requests for assistance on projects being worked on here in the past,choosing to remain silent when asked .

perhaps you should practice some silence here....?

and show a smidge of Gratitude?

respectfully

Chet

Quote from: Chet K on 2014.09.28, 14:27:02
Mookie
Please do not think for an instant that you stand on the same Ground as TinMan when you DEMAND information....

He is a replicator here and has willingly Shared Thousand of hours of his hard work ,Time and money...

You on the other hand have refused requests for assistance on projects being worked on here in the past,choosing to remain silent when asked .

perhaps you should practice some silence here....?

and show a smidge of Gratitude?

respectfully

Chet

Thank you for your observations and kind advice.

@LB

Been following the thread from the start just mainly because I am mostly interested in all atomic level of interaction where things happen in the very small. I am not yet close enough but here is a quick sample. If anyone reading this thread has access to an atomic microscope, maybe this type of set-up can be tried. I would love to eventually see a water molecule actually split. hahaha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbpLVSwIkeE

Seeing this video has given me so much more insight but I will not interject any more then I have to fully respect your thread and its orientation.

All the best.

wattsup

Quote from: wattsup on 2014.09.28, 21:23:10
@LB

Been following the thread from the start just mainly because I am mostly interested in all atomic level of interaction where things happen in the very small. I am not yet close enough but here is a quick sample. If anyone reading this thread has access to an atomic microscope, maybe this type of set-up can be tried. I would love to eventually see a water molecule actually split. hahaha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbpLVSwIkeE

Seeing this video has given me so much more insight but I will not interject any more then I have to fully respect your thread and its orientation.

All the best.

wattsup

Great video wattsup.
A very clear example that your HHO cells are a parallel capacitor/resistor,and will keep producing HHO regardless of wether the cell is pulsed or not. The higher the frequency,the lower the voltage drop across the cell between pulses.Once you reach about 100Hz,the current flow between cells is pretty much DC,as the cell itself provides the current during the off time.

Quote from: Centraflow on 2014.09.28, 10:30:46
There is one big problem in the EU, I don't know about the rest of the world, but to get an inspection certificate the car must not be altered from the manufacturers spec's

That is the stop safe guard >:(

Here in the US, no one actually owns the vehicle parked in their driveway.  All vehicles are owned by the State, unless you happen to have the original MSO (Manufacture Statement of Origin).  This is why They can enforce all these draconian measures--it's not your car to be tampering with.

Quote from: Groundloop on 2014.09.28, 08:24:11
I can never afford to buy so many PCB plates here in Norway. It will cost me approx. 10.000,- NOK. Way too much.
The factory can gold plate PCBs. The factory uses ENIG Gold (Ni/Au) system. The gold layer is very thin so it doesn't
cost much. So if the first gold layer is broken then the next layer will be Nickle anyway.
GL.

Groundloop,

PLEASE forget that idea!  Get it out of your head!

Not because you can't afford to get circuit boards made in a country where EVERYTHING is too expensive. 
I lived there (in Bergen) for almost 15 years before migrating to Australia, so I know.

Clearly, electrolysis is not your 'field' of research.

If you ever put that idea into practise, it would be a DISASTER.
A total waste of your time, energy and money!

Here is why:
In a series cell electrolyser, there MUST NOT be holes in the plates.
Your idea would be the equivalent of perforated metal plates.
Such a set-up would be nothing more than a SHORT CIRCUIT!
It would blow all your fuses, INSTANTLY!

Further, what would be the reason for using gaskets when ALL your plates are full of holes????

In addition to all the above, you would not even save on the weight of such a unit.
You mentioned 9kg for 121 circuit boards.
My 139 cell design (for 240V operation) has 138 plates of 180x100mm, 0.55mm thick SS316, the total weight of the plates (including the end plates where the power is connected) is just under 11kg.

But that is not all.

ANY 'plating' would be STRIPPED off with astonishing speed, due to the combined actions of the electrolysis process, contact with HydrOxy, the VERY corrosive electrolyte (KOH or NaOH) and the elevated temperature of the electrolyte.
Once a tiny hole is formed in the 'plating', the copper on the circuit boards would also be etched away in a very short time.
Needless to say, to see these effects in action you need a normal set-up, WITHOUT holes in the plates.
Yes, pure Nickel is the BEST metal for electrolysis but it is expensive, unless very thin foil is used.

Lastly, I wish to point out (again) that once the nano-pulse electrolysis method is worked out, series cell set-ups will no longer be used.

But that's another story....

I have attached one drawing to give you an idea how a 139 cell unit is made.
(It was drawn by Pete, based on my original design.)

Cheers,
Les Banki

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.09.29, 02:54:52
Groundloop,

PLEASE forget that idea!  Get it out of your head!

Not because you can't afford to get circuit boards made in a country where EVERYTHING is too expensive. 
I lived there (in Bergen) for almost 15 years before migrating to Australia, so I know.

Clearly, electrolysis is not your 'field' of research.

If you ever put that idea into practise, it would be a DISASTER.
A total waste of your time, energy and money!

Here is why:
In a series cell electrolyser, there MUST NOT be holes in the plates.
Your idea would be the equivalent of perforated metal plates.
Such a set-up would be nothing more than a SHORT CIRCUIT!
It would blow all your fuses, INSTANTLY!

Further, what would be the reason for using gaskets when ALL your plates are full of holes????

In addition to all the above, you would not even save on the weight of such a unit.
You mentioned 9kg for 121 circuit boards.
My 139 cell design (for 240V operation) has 138 plates of 180x100mm, 0.55mm thick SS316, the total weight of the plates (including the end plates where the power is connected) is just under 11kg.

But that is not all.

ANY 'plating' would be STRIPPED off with astonishing speed, due to the combined actions of the electrolysis process, contact with HydrOxy, the VERY corrosive electrolyte (KOH or NaOH) and the elevated temperature of the electrolyte.
Once a tiny hole is formed in the 'plating', the copper on the circuit boards would also be etched away in a very short time.
Needless to say, to see these effects in action you need a normal set-up, WITHOUT holes in the plates.
Yes, pure Nickel is the BEST metal for electrolysis but it is expensive, unless very thin foil is used.

Lastly, I wish to point out (again) that once the nano-pulse electrolysis method is worked out, series cell set-ups will no longer be used.

But that's another story....

I have attached one drawing to give you an idea how a 139 cell unit is made.
(It was drawn by Pete, based on my original design.)

Cheers,
Les Banki

Les,

Thank you for the cell drawing.
No, electrolysis is not my 'field' of research.
And yes, I have dropped the idea.

GL.

Dear All.

After yet another bubbler disintegration yesterday afternoon I decided to do some trawling to see what Flash back arresters were available. I came across this video.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FBdQPbgldM

Do any of you guys over the pond know if this group are now running on the road ??

Cheers Grum.

Quote from: Grumage on 2014.09.29, 11:30:34
Do any of you guys over the pond know if this group are now running on the road ??

Steve is still in business, though his broad range of products has narrowed quite a bit.

I use his flashback arrestors on my HHO welding station, never had a bit of problem with them.


"Running on the road"  ???    Definitely not without petrol.  Steve uses his cells strictly as a boost to gasoline.  Never has his vehicle run on water alone.

Hi,

Can somebody explain to me how this cell design works, since there are two large holes
in all his plates?



GL.

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.09.29, 12:53:39
Steve is still in business, though his broad range of products has narrowed quite a bit.

I use his flashback arrestors on my HHO welding station, never had a bit of problem with them.


"Running on the road"  ???    Definitely not without petrol.  Steve uses his cells strictly as a boost to gasoline.  Never has his vehicle run on water alone.

Dear Matt.

Perhaps if the love affair of such massive " Cubic Inch " engines could be ended or at least reduced maybe he could run solely on HHO ??   :)  Do you know what the CC is on that truck ?

Here in the UK  3 Litre and above is considered BIG !!  I personally run a 2 Litre Diesel BMW M sport, it is more than adequate on our roads. And don't forget we can still legally do 70 mph, aren't you limited to 55 mph ?

That said, thanks for the thumbs up on the arrester I will probably make my own. However Bronze wool is not available here in the UK for some reason  ???  Perhaps THEY don't want us messing with HHO !!  :)

Cheers Grum.

Quote from: Grumage on 2014.09.29, 14:49:34
Dear Matt.

Perhaps if the love affair of such massive " Cubic Inch " engines could be ended or at least reduced maybe he could run solely on HHO ??   :)  Do you know what the CC is on that truck ?

Here in the UK  3 Litre and above is considered BIG !!  I personally run a 2 Litre Diesel BMW M sport, it is more than adequate on our roads. And don't forget we can still legally do 70 mph, aren't you limited to 55 mph ?

That said, thanks for the thumbs up on the arrester I will probably make my own. However Bronze wool is not available here in the UK for some reason  ???  Perhaps THEY don't want us messing with HHO !!  :)

Cheers Grum.

I suspect that Dodge Ram is a 360 cubic inch, much smaller than my 6.7L Cummins Diesel.   :)   Of course mine has 800 ft/lbs of torque.    :D  And still gets 18 MPG with my modifications.   :-X   Plus I have more yet to do to it.   O0

If you poke around Delvis11 videos, you'll find where he road tests that truck and the mileage gains he gets, but I assure you it still has gasoline injected.  It doesn't run on water.

I have one of Steve's bigger flashback suppressors that I'm sure you could make yourself.  It's just a water filter filled with 6mm airsoft pellets and some stainless steel screens.  Works like a charm.
http://www.greenfuelh2o.com/product_p/gf-fb.htm

Quote from: Groundloop on 2014.09.29, 14:14:02
Hi,

Can somebody explain to me how this cell design works, since there are two large holes
in all his plates?

GL.

Its a dry cell-same as i have. One hole go's to the top of the cell to allow the gas to flow out,and the other hole go's on the bottom to allow the water to flow through all the plates. Water flows into the bottom hole,and water and gas flow out the top hole into a water reservoir that is above the cell. The water recycles,while the gas flows to a bubbler.

Quote from: TinMan on 2014.09.29, 21:29:15
Its a dry cell-same as i have. One hole go's to the top of the cell to allow the gas to flow out,and the other hole go's on the bottom to allow the water to flow through all the plates. Water flows into the bottom hole,and water and gas flow out the top hole into a water reservoir that is above the cell. The water recycles,while the gas flows to a bubbler.

TinMan,

Thank you for taking time to answer my question. Since all the holes (the one in the top and the one at bottom)
is common for all the plates in the dry cell, how much leakage current do you get between the cells in the unit?
How much loss in % does the holes in the plates add up to compared to the current usage of a cell design that
does not uses holes in the plates?

GL.

Anybody know the answer to the above posting?

Quote from: Groundloop on 2014.09.29, 21:47:15
TinMan,

Thank you for taking time to answer my question. Since all the holes (the one in the top and the one at bottom)
is common for all the plates in the dry cell, how much leakage current do you get between the cells in the unit?
How much loss in % does the holes in the plates add up to compared to the current usage of a cell design that
does not uses holes in the plates?

GL.

There is no current leakage around the hole's,as the hole edges are sealed with epoxy resin.
Quote:  compared to the current usage of a cell design that
does not uses holes in the plates?

I must ask-if it is a dry cell,and there are no holes in the plates,the water and gas flow between them how? ???


The whole current leakage thing is another bit of rubbish by the way,as the whole ruddy S/S plate leak's current.You need X amount of current to produce Y amount of gas-and NO ONE has proven otherwise.I have used perforated plate in sted of solid plate,and the gas output for the same P/in was exactly the same.This thing about current leakage is absolute ballony. You need current to make gas,and thats the bottom line.

Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.01, 13:37:29
There is no current leakage around the hole's,as the hole edges are sealed with epoxy resin.
Quote:  compared to the current usage of a cell design that
does not uses holes in the plates?

I must ask-if it is a dry cell,and there are no holes in the plates,the water and gas flow between them how? ???


The whole current leakage thing is another bit of rubbish by the way,as the whole ruddy S/S plate leak's current.You need X amount of current to produce Y amount of gas-and NO ONE has proven otherwise.I have used perforated plate in sted of solid plate,and the gas output for the same P/in was exactly the same.This thing about current leakage is absolute ballony. You need current to make gas,and thats the bottom line.

Thanks for the answer. The other design is like the one Les posted. Plexiglas with grooves for the plates and the gas
up at the top. So in that design you do not need any holes in the plates or any rubber gaskets.

GL.

Quote from: Groundloop on 2014.10.01, 13:43:36
Thanks for the answer. The other design is like the one Les posted. Plexiglas with grooves for the plates and the gas
up at the top. So in that design you do not need any holes in the plates or any rubber gaskets.

GL.

As i recall,Les is using 5mmS/S plate that slides into 6mm grooves. Unless he seals the edge of all the plates,he will have a whole lot of this (so called) current leakage around all the plate edges. He is using what is called a flooded cell design. These are old school,and quite dangerous,as they hold a good volume of gas in the top section of the cell,where as the dry cell pumps out the gas with the Elite-very little HHO in the cell at any one time.The dry cells also run the coolest ,as they continually circulate the Elite from cell to tank-some even run the Elite through a small radiator.

Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.01, 13:53:42
As i recall,Les is using 5mmS/S plate that slides into 6mm grooves. Unless he seals the edge of all the plates,he will have a whole lot of this (so called) current leakage around all the plate edges. He is using what is called a flooded cell design. These are old school,and quite dangerous,as they hold a good volume of gas in the top section of the cell,where as the dry cell pumps out the gas with the Elite-very little HHO in the cell at any one time.The dry cells also run the coolest ,as they continually circulate the Elite from cell to tank-some even run the Elite through a small radiator.

I did spend some hours last weekend studying dry cells. I think the easiest design to build
was the one that uses the bolts (insulated) around the steel plates and rubber gaskets
between the plates. So right now I'm looking for a firm (locally) that can make the plates
for me. The rubber gaskets can easily be cut by hand. (Or maybe cut on a laser cutter?).

Thanks for the information, I learning new stuff every day.

GL.

Quote from: Groundloop on 2014.10.01, 14:09:45
I did spend some hours last weekend studying dry cells. I think the easiest design to build
was the one that uses the bolts (insulated) around the steel plates and rubber gaskets
between the plates. So right now I'm looking for a firm (locally) that can make the plates
for me. The rubber gaskets can easily be cut by hand. (Or maybe cut on a laser cutter?).

Thanks for the information, I learning new stuff every day.

GL.

Once your up and running GL(and all),here is a simple MMW calculator.
http://www.hho-generator.de/en/hho-mmw-calculator.htm

Dear All.

One step closer !!

Looking forward to receiving the PCB !!

Les.

Do we have any further info on the transformer ?  I shall probably order from this firm in the UK, they are very, very reliable !!  http://powermagnetics.co.uk/pace-components-home-page

Cheers Graham.

Grum
What are you going to use to drive that injector?

Cheers
Peter

Quote from: Peterae on 2014.10.02, 17:08:10
Grum
What are you going to use to drive that injector?

Cheers
Peter

Dear Peter.

At this moment I have not a clue !!  :)

I do like the old fashioned approach, probably due to my life's work restoring our former work horses !! So perhaps a more mechanical approach for me, timing disc on the camshaft ??

However I am still a long way away from a trial but at least I now have a nice Honda OHV 3Kw single phase gen set to play with !!

Cheers Grum.

I'm sure some of the other guys are more skilled in the art and can answer that for you then, i imagine a hall sensor with a magnet on the cam shaft and then trigger a monostable to control the pulse width may work, assuming that injector takes a 12V pulse but i would need to look at the datasheet to be sure as i never looked to see how they are driven from an ECU.

Les did mention an ECU, again not looked into that maybe there's another PCB to make  ^-^

Quote from: Grumage on 2014.10.02, 20:34:40
Dear Peter.

At this moment I have not a clue !!  :)

I do like the old fashioned approach, probably due to my life's work restoring our former work horses !! So perhaps a more mechanical approach for me, timing disc on the camshaft ??

However I am still a long way away from a trial but at least I now have a nice Honda OHV 3Kw single phase gen set to play with !!

Cheers Grum.

If going mechanical Grum,i would use a push button switch(normally closed) operated from the inlet valve rocker arm. Set it up so as when the inlet valve opens,the switch is in the closed position.

Peter
Yes there is an ECU and we will be getting that sorted.

thx
Chet

Guys,

The simple reason why some of you are CONFUSED is because you don't READ my files!

How many times do I need to repeat that my WFGP Folders contain 58 files of which 18 are text document files, holding all the necessary information for the project.
I have explained every damn thing to the best of my ability!

Many months ago, the links to my two Dropbox Folders have been published on several Forums but for your convenience, here they are again:

http://goo.gl/ZgF7aS

http://goo.gl/8zY8Um

Those who are seriously interested in this project are required to become familiar with the details.
ASSUMPTIONS, guesses and jumping to conclusions will not do!

Take the ECU issue, for example.  Again, you are confused because you did NOT read my explanations.  My entire WFGP design IS the ECU!!

Unlike an ECU for a car ('black box' approach), mine is spread out over several circuit boards, which, combined, IS the Engine Control Unit. (ECU)

As for the 'mechanical' approach to gain ignition/injection point information from the engine, you may encounter problems.
Again, when you read HOW I gain that information from the engine, you will understand WHY you may have problems mixing the mechanical and the electronic information.

I like to remind you all (again) that engine management has never been simple for ANY fuel!
Period.

Cheers,
Les Banki

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.10.03, 02:57:00
I like to remind you all (again) that engine management has never been simple for ANY fuel!
Period.

But it's a WHOLE lot easier on a constant speed single cylinder generator running HydrOxy than a mulit-cylinder Formula racing engine running M85.

Speaking of which Les, any chance you could take a snapshot of your injector arrangement?

I'm having a bit of trouble finding a good angle for the injector with a straight pipe manifold.  Did you use an elbow for your manifold and drill through the top for your injector hole?

Hi GL,

You wrote:
"The other design is like the one Les posted.
Plexiglas with grooves for the plates and the gas up at the top.
So in that design you do not need any holes in the plates or any rubber gaskets."

Since you are interested to learn more about electrolysis in general and series cell electrolysers in particular, I have addressed this post to you but it is really for ALL who are interested...

(Judging by the number of 'reads' of this thread, there seem to be some interest....!
Because I started this thread, I kind of feel 'responsible' for it and the information posted here!
I try to make sure that ALL information presented here is TRUE and CORRECT!
If not, I EXPOSE false or misleading information and those who post it and I make no apologies for that!)

"So in that design you do not need any holes in the plates or any rubber gaskets."

You are absolutely correct!

Before you go any further, do yourself a favour by reading my document named:
"HydrOxy-generator 'closed loop' set-up.doc".
You should also read at least the first two pages of "Re-filling series cell electrolysers.doc" which gives detailed info on plate thickness, grooves, leakage current, etc.

If you REALLY want to understand how series cell electrolysers work, you should STUDY the Patent by its inventor, Dr. William Rhodes.  (US Patent 3,310,483)

I advise you to IGNORE the following comments:
"The whole current leakage thing is another bit of rubbish by the way,..."
and
"This thing about current leakage is absolute ballony."
and
"As i recall,Les is using 5mmS/S plate that slides into 6mm grooves. Unless he seals the edge of all the plates,he will have a whole lot of this (so called) current leakage around all the plate edges. He is using what is called a flooded cell design. These are old school,and quite dangerous ..."

The above are clear examples of what happens when people refuse to READ the provided info!

After all, my WFGP Folders contain 58 files of which 18 are text file documents,
holding all the necessary information for the project.
Those who are seriously interested in this project are required to become familiar with the details.
ASSUMPTIONS, guesses and jumping to conclusions will not do!

The plates are 0.55mm thick, grooves are 0.6mm wide, 5 mm deep and there is NO need for gaskets or any other type of 'seal' as it is CLEARLY explained by Dr. William Rhodes!

IF you drill just ONE hole in every plate of a 139 cell unit, you know what is going to happen??
Electricity is rather 'weird', as you know!  It always finds the easiest path to flow.
Where the least resistance is.
Say your holes are 5mm in diameter.
Then you have KOH electrolyte of about 20% concentration.  (The saturation point is about 26%.)
20% concentration conducts like crazy!
The result??
A certain portion of your current is now flowing through the holes, DIRECTLY between your power leads, WITHOUT passing through the plates!
It is all common sense.

Current which does not produce gas is a DEAD LOSS!
But according to 'tinman', "current leakage is absolute ballony."
So what would you like to call this effect??
Do you still think its strange that I use colourful language when I comment on this kind of NONSENSE?? 

How about this one:  "He is using what is called a flooded cell design. These are old school,..."
Oh yes, they are "old school" all right but most (if not all) of the so-called 'dry cells' are nothing but distortions of the original series cell principle and thus mostly unsuccessful in producing looped set-ups.
You don't have to believe any of this. 
Go ahead and build some variant of a 'dry cell' with just a handful of plates, lots of bolts, holes, gaskets and what have you but don't complain if you don't get your generator to loop and produce useful extra power!

And while you are at it, don't forget to fit your automatic refill for 24/7 operation! ;D C.C

Cheers,
Les Banki

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.10.03, 03:58:55
Hi GL,

You wrote:
"The other design is like the one Les posted.
Plexiglas with grooves for the plates and the gas up at the top.
So in that design you do not need any holes in the plates or any rubber gaskets."

Since you are interested to learn more about electrolysis in general and series cell electrolysers in particular, I have addressed this post to you but it is really for ALL who are interested...

(Judging by the number of 'reads' of this thread, there seem to be some interest....!
Because I started this thread, I kind of feel 'responsible' for it and the information posted here!
I try to make sure that ALL information presented here is TRUE and CORRECT!
If not, I EXPOSE false or misleading information and those who post it and I make no apologies for that!)

"So in that design you do not need any holes in the plates or any rubber gaskets."

You are absolutely correct!

Before you go any further, do yourself a favour by reading my document named:
"HydrOxy-generator 'closed loop' set-up.doc".
You should also read at least the first two pages of "Re-filling series cell electrolysers.doc" which gives detailed info on plate thickness, grooves, leakage current, etc.

If you REALLY want to understand how series cell electrolysers work, you should STUDY the Patent by its inventor, Dr. William Rhodes.  (US Patent 3,310,483)

I advise you to IGNORE the following comments:
"The whole current leakage thing is another bit of rubbish by the way,..."
and
"This thing about current leakage is absolute ballony."
and
"As i recall,Les is using 5mmS/S plate that slides into 6mm grooves. Unless he seals the edge of all the plates,he will have a whole lot of this (so called) current leakage around all the plate edges. He is using what is called a flooded cell design. These are old school,and quite dangerous ..."

The above are clear examples of what happens when people refuse to READ the provided info!

After all, my WFGP Folders contain 58 files of which 18 are text file documents,
holding all the necessary information for the project.
Those who are seriously interested in this project are required to become familiar with the details.
ASSUMPTIONS, guesses and jumping to conclusions will not do!

The plates are 0.55mm thick, grooves are 0.6mm wide, 5 mm deep and there is NO need for gaskets or any other type of 'seal' as it is CLEARLY explained by Dr. William Rhodes!

IF you drill just ONE hole in every plate of a 139 cell unit, you know what is going to happen??
Electricity is rather 'weird', as you know!  It always finds the easiest path to flow.
Where the least resistance is.
Say your holes are 5mm in diameter.
Then you have KOH electrolyte of about 20% concentration.  (The saturation point is about 26%.)
20% concentration conducts like crazy!
The result??
A certain portion of your current is now flowing through the holes, DIRECTLY between your power leads, WITHOUT passing through the plates!
It is all common sense.

Current which does not produce gas is a DEAD LOSS!
But according to 'tinman', "current leakage is absolute ballony."
So what would you like to call this effect??
Do you still think its strange that I use colourful language when I comment on this kind of NONSENSE?? 

How about this one:  "He is using what is called a flooded cell design. These are old school,..."
Oh yes, they are "old school" all right but most (if not all) of the so-called 'dry cells' are nothing but distortions of the original series cell principle and thus mostly unsuccessful in producing looped set-ups.
You don't have to believe any of this. 
Go ahead and build some variant of a 'dry cell' with just a handful of plates, lots of bolts, holes, gaskets and what have you but don't complain if you don't get your generator to loop and produce useful extra power!

And while you are at it, don't forget to fit your automatic refill for 24/7 operation! ;D C.C

Cheers,
Les Banki

Les,

Thanks for the information. I will study the patent this weekend. I have already read most of you documentation, but
will study it more "in the deep" as time goes by. I must add that I'm not a stranger to electronic design, both analog
and digital. I have not build any electrolysis cells, but as I said, I'm here to learn. I was a fisher man in my younger days
so colorful language does not work on me. :-)

GL.

Dear Les.

I am old enough to have seen the transition and evolution of the Motor car, from a time that almost anyone with a modicum of intelligence and some decent tools could repair one !!  Today you plug the damn thing in !!

Please forgive me for trying to keep things simple.

I am not the best with electronics, more with heavy electrics and even better when placed in front of a Lathe !!  :)
I will re read your documents and look forward to building a successful replication.

With respect,

Cheers Graham.

@ Les
I am baffled as to how you think you have something wonderful,when you have no idea as to what is happening to the flowing current within a cell of any type C.C

Lets have a look at what you said in reply to my comments-wich by the way,you just proved to be correct in your own word's,although i doubt you understand what you actually said your self.

Quote: IF you drill just ONE hole in every plate of a 139 cell unit, you know what is going to happen??
Electricity is rather 'weird', as you know!  It always finds the easiest path to flow.
Where the least resistance is.

Les-could you please tell everyone here what has the least resistance-the resistance across the thickness of your .55mm S/S plate,or the resistance across a .55mm section of the Elite(the hole)?

2nd- Quote: A certain portion of your current is now flowing through the holes, DIRECTLY between your power leads, WITHOUT passing through the plates!
It is all common sense.

Common sense you say. So that current is flowing from where to where? C.C

Here is a little thought experiment for you Les. lets make a 2 plate cell,one plate the anode ,and one the cathode. these two plates are going to be S/S washers !with a hole in the middle Les!. Now lets put them in a jar of Elite,and send some current through them. So please tell me how much current is flowing through the holes Les. That's right-NONE.

Quote: Current which does not produce gas is a DEAD LOSS!
But according to 'tinman', "current leakage is absolute ballony."
So what would you like to call this effect??
Do you still think its strange that I use colourful language when I comment on this kind of NONSENSE??

Well there is certainly NONSENSE going on here,but it isn't from me Les.This part is a doozy-Quote: Current which does not produce gas is a DEAD LOSS!
But according to 'tinman', "current leakage is absolute ballony."
Les-here is a small bit of news for you--> the plates are the only current leakage points in the cell-not the holes. Once again Les,current flows from where to where?

Here is a simple question for you Les.
If we have say a 13 plate series cell,and we remove the middle plate and replace it with a perforated plate(lots of so called current leakage holes)-->will the cell draw more current or less current?-I look forward to your answer on this one.

Here is something interesting. After looking back on my HHO cell note's,the series cell made from S/S perforated plate was 3.4% more efficient than any other cell configuration i made-food for thought.

Leakage Current within an electrolyzer is a characteristic
of the series cell plate configuration.  It has to do with the
Overvoltage needed to sustain electrolysis once the gases
are evolved at the electrodes.  Holes in the intermediate
plates offer a path for current flow that bypasses the
overvoltage at the metallic plate.

Have you ever noticed that the series plate electrolyzer
tends to operate as a current source immediately after
power (electrolysis current) is cut off?  This is the result
of gas adsorption at the metallic plates.  A surprising amount
of energy exists briefly in that condition.

Quote from: TinMan
If we have say a 13 plate series cell,and we remove the middle plate and replace it with a perforated plate(lots of so called current leakage holes)-->will the cell draw more current or less current?-I look forward to your answer on this one.

The current will increase by a small amount due to
leakage current.  The potential available at that
point in the series string to cause leakage current
is not great.

If more of the intermediate plates were perforated
the leakage increase would be much greater, particularly
if the perforated plates were adjoining.

Hi Graham,

You wrote:
"Dear Les.

I am old enough to have seen the transition and evolution of the Motor car, from a time that almost anyone with a modicum of intelligence and some decent tools could repair one !!  Today you plug the damn thing in !!

Please forgive me for trying to keep things simple.

I am not the best with electronics, more with heavy electrics and even better when placed in front of a Lathe !! 
I will re read your documents and look forward to building a successful replication.

With respect,

Cheers Graham.

I certainly agree with your statements on cars as well as on simplicity in general! 
I use the KISS principle wherever I can.

HOWEVER, there are cases where simple designs are simply NOT good enough!
More than 30 years ago there was an article in an electronics magazine I used buy regularly, titled:
"The PERILS of simple design."  (I still have a copy of it - somewhere!)
It gave many real life examples where simple designs just could not deliver the desired results!

One such case - which concerns us - is the method of gaining ignition/injection TIMING information from our engines.

I wanted to raise this issue before your post so now I use this opportunity to explain.

This explanation is directed at those who entertain the idea of using 'mechanical' means to gain the TIMING information from their engines.

It is assumed that everyone know that in an engine, ignition and injection occur at different times.
Therefore, TWO signals (pulses) are required from the engine.
From this, it should be clear that ignition pulses cannot be used for injection and injection timing pulses cannot be used for ignition!

Obtaining ignition timing pulses may be relatively simple for those who can do the mechanical modifications to their engines but obtaining injection pulses may not be so simple.

Needless to say, for those who don't want to use injection but have a continuous flow of gas, (at the risk of losing some of it) there is no need for a second signal.
But those will have another problem to solve.
RPM control.

Here comes ELECTRONICS to the rescue!
My design requires only ONE signal from the engine, using a small 'Samarium-Cobalt' magnet glued to the exhaust valve's rocker arm and a Hall switch.  (which is outside the engine!)
You can find detailed explanations in my "Igninje5 circuit description.doc".
Once you understand how it all works, you will also see HOW a seemingly 'complex' (to some!)
circuit arrangement can easily solve problems which would be difficult to solve by other means!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Quote from: muDped on 2014.10.03, 19:05:12
Leakage Current within an electrolyzer is a characteristic
of the series cell plate configuration.  It has to do with the
Overvoltage needed to sustain electrolysis once the gases
are evolved at the electrodes.  Holes in the intermediate
plates offer a path for current flow that bypasses the
overvoltage at the metallic plate.

The current will increase by a small amount due to
leakage current.  The potential available at that
point in the series string to cause leakage current
is not great.

If more of the intermediate plates were perforated
the leakage increase would be much greater, particularly
if the perforated plates were adjoining.

Thanks for the answer muDped-now we are getting some where.
You are of course right,and with that comes the next question.
Now that we know that by having holes in the neutral plates allows more current to flow(commonly known as current leakage!!incorrectly!!),and that current is delivered to the cell by the positive plate(first plate),and continues out through the negative plate(last plate)(using conventional current flow),can you please tell us if those two plates without the holes in them will be producing more gas,or less gas?-now that a higher current is flowing through them.

My point is this-->the MMW will be the same with or with out the plates with holes in them,as the holes are a current path,NOT a current leakage.The dry cell is the best design so far,as there is no large area in them to store the HHO gas.The Elite is also continually circulated,which helps in keeping the cell temperature down.

I'm not saying that Les's cell isn't an efficient cell,in fact,it will be just as efficient as a dry cell. The only thing i don't like about them is that they have a large area to store gas,and the Elite can slosh around in the top half of the cell. You could of course add baffles,but that doesn't eliminate the large gas storage area.If by some chance you get blow back to the cell,and that cell has(i think it was) 2LTRs of HHO at a pressure of 21 psi-what do you think the result would be :o

I guess it comes down to what you think will be cheaper and easier to build. Do you have the machinery to build a cell such as Les's-machineing .6mm groves in plexiglass so as they are all exact. Then being able to glue all the cell walls,bottom and seal the top so as it's all water tight at a pressure of 21 psi. Or would it be easier to drill some holes in S/S plates,and bolt the whole thing together with rubber gaskets between the plates.

I shouldn't have posted this in Les's thread-i should have made a thread for this topic. So i wont be cluttering this thread with any more about cell design or this current leakage stuff.

I have the board and injector on the way-thanks to Chet.I also went a purchased a brand new 3Kw generator for the project. So from here on in,i will be building just as Les has specified,and we will see what we end up with.

My apologies Les for cluttering up your thread.

Brad

Guys the 2 PCBs have arrived, get your orders in so i can send out today otherwise it will be next week, so PM me your address.  O0

Peter
great news !!

I know you are too busy with other projects to closely follow this effort.[ we all only have so
many hours in the day. :(]

Thank you for taking the time and money to help this move forward.
Also Thanks to Physics Prof for his contribution Too.




Respectfully
Chet

Boards have been shipped from UK this morning, no tracking info but they are first class Air mail.  O0

Chet
Not forgetting Les Banki for the board design and hard work over the years he has tirelessly put in to this.

I am glad to help out with PCBs

Peter
PS i have 4 sets left so if anyone else comes along at some point then PM me and i will post a set out.  O0
Grace sent me 11 sets instead of 10  :-*

Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.04, 07:50:28
I shouldn't have posted this in Les's thread-i should have made a thread for this topic. So i wont be cluttering this thread with any more about cell design or this current leakage stuff.

My apologies Les for cluttering up your thread.
Brad

@TinMan

Please open a new thread as I want to post some stuff there also that will refer to my last youtube, as both are relevant but do not belong in @LB's thread. 

Sorry for the intrusion.

wattsup

Quote from: muDped on 2014.10.03, 19:05:12
Leakage Current within an electrolyzer is a characteristic
of the series cell plate configuration.  It has to do with the
Overvoltage needed to sustain electrolysis once the gases
are evolved at the electrodes.  Holes in the intermediate
plates offer a path for current flow that bypasses the
overvoltage at the metallic plate.

Have you ever noticed that the series plate electrolyzer
tends to operate as a current source immediately after
power (electrolysis current) is cut off?  This is the result
of gas adsorption at the metallic plates.  A surprising amount
of energy exists briefly in that condition.

The current will increase by a small amount due to
leakage current.  The potential available at that
point in the series string to cause leakage current
is not great.

If more of the intermediate plates were perforated
the leakage increase would be much greater, particularly
if the perforated plates were adjoining.

Hi 'muDped',

I just want to THANK YOU for your excellent explanation and I hope that all readers here understand and appreciate it!
It is certainly MUCH better than the 'explanation' I provided!
You clearly have an admirable ability to express yourself!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.04, 07:50:28

My apologies Les for cluttering up your thread.

Brad

Hi Brad,

No problems, man! ;D

There is no need for any apologies! :)
Don't worry about the thread either.  It has been WAY off topic for some time but if you guys are happy with the direction
it took, it is all right with me!
After all, this thread is for YOU guys, not me.  I only started it.

While I am at it, just a couple of comments/corrections.

The intended pressure is NOT 21 PSI, only 10.  Perhaps even less, due to the large capacity of the injector.
The pressure and/or injection time can be reduced since I have made them adjustable.

My electrolyser design is NOT 'set in stone'.
It can be altered, provided the operating principle is not violated.

As for the dangers involved, anyone who read my documents knows about my WARNINGS.

Cheers,
Les Banki

Good day All:

FYI:

The NGK U.S. patent which describes in detail the make and function of the S I Thyristor used in said patent.

As soon as I have time I will send an email to my contacts in China to check the availability there of this device.  Maybe we will get lucky O0

Take care, peace
lost_bro

Dear Peterae.

The two PCB's arrived safely late this afternoon.

Just a short note to say thank you.   O0

Cheers Graham.

All,

PCBs for the WFGP

Realizing the considerable difficulties and expense of small, individual orders for 15 different pcb's directly from manufacturers, I have decided to help those who want to 'replicate' the project by offering a pcb package.

The package will include all 15 boards required for the FULL project, plus the small CFL unit needed to complete the CDI board.
(For details about this, please refer to the 'CDI circuit description.doc'.)

Cost will be A$100.00, plus postage.

Note that ANYONE can order, you don't have to be a member of this Forum!
Those who are interested can email me directly.
(My email address is at the bottom of my post #5 in this thread.)

In the 'subject' line of your email, please write:  'WFGP pcb package'

Cheers,
Les Banki

Thanks for letting me know Grum  O0

All,

PCB parts lists

Some readers have raised the issue of 'parts lists' for the PCBs.

Anyone who is even just vaguely familiar with CAD PCB files, would/should know that a CAD pcb file has every single piece of information about that particular PCB, INCLUDING parts list!

In 'Protel', it is called 'Bill Of Material' (BOM).
It is EMBEDDED in the pcb file and needs to be EXTRACTED.

In short, all the PCB files I published in their original Protel (PFW) format, have everything needed for making (completing) those boards.

However, to access all the necessary information, those files must be OPENED (with the correct software – PFW – and the information EXTRACTED.
Period.

The problem is that most people don't have the PFW software and even if they download the still 'free' version of 'Protel 99SE', most would not know how to open the files and access the BOM file(s).

Therefore, to help those who don't know to do it, I have EXTRACTED the BOM (small text file) from all 14 pcb files.
After the extraction, all files ended up with .BOM extensions!

But since this Forum does not accept .BOM extensions, I changed them to .txt!
It worked!  (at least for me!)

I hope this helps....

Cheers,
Les Banki

For those who may wish to download all of Les's
Parts Lists at once.

Electrolyser instructions

Since there seem to be a sudden surge of interest in my WFGP, perhaps it is time for some explanations & instructions for how to make the electrolyser.

While the process is straightforward, there are some important rules to follow and some construction details to observe.

Please read the attached document and look at the drawing 'doubtank.pdf'.

Cheers,
Les Banki

@ Les
As some of us have the boards coming,what configuration is the single test cell for the nano pulse board's,as you said the nano pulse system wont work with multi plate cell's.

Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.23, 10:24:26
@ Les
As some of us have the boards coming,what configuration is the single test cell for the nano pulse board's,as you said the nano pulse system wont work with multi plate cell's.

Brad & others,

Here is the link to an excellent idea/project which was published back in 2003 on 'oupower.com'.  It is described in great detail over several pages!

http://oupower.com/index.php?dir=_Other_Peoples_Projects/AntDavison/kettle%20c.2003

Personally, when I want to evaluate a new electrolysis method, I use a two stage approach:
First, I use a simple, two plate cell, submerged in the electrolyte, just to have a visual proof of reasonable production of 'bubbles'.
If I think it has merit, I make a closed cell which I connect to one of my self-made HydrOxy "flow meters" and start measuring both gas volume
and power consumption.

By the way, I am getting many emails which indicate confusion about the nano-pulse method in general and my circuit and pcb designs in particular.
In my next post I will try to clear up the technical issues.

Cheers,
Les Banki

Hello to All,

I am new member in this group.
I am working/replicating the WFGen project from Mr. Les Banki.

I certainly hope that I can make a real working genset running on HydrOxy gas only, it will be a game changer.
Imagine a genset unit supplying (FREE) electric power for household.

Yes, this would be terrific.

Here is my backflash/bubbler safety arrestor.
See enclosed picture(s)

Greetings, Alex

Kampen72
Welcome to the forum and the Builders group,yes a true game changer indeed.

Very nice looking flame arrestor.

Thx
Chet

@ Peter

The boards turned up in the mail today Peter-they look sweet.
Big thanks from me. Off now to see if altronics has all the bits i need.

Cheers O0
Brad

Greetings Everyone,

I have been reading only so far and made only one post (flashback arrestor) because I don't have anything to show.
Les informed me that there is a much easy er and not that labor intensive way to make a flashback arrestor with commercial available waterfilters.

Message from Les, see below:
I am simply going to use 1 micron water filter cartridges (which stops the flame) and housings (two in series for extra safety), which are cheap and readily available!

Further, they also remove moisture from the gas!

If the housing is a CLEAR one, one can also see the accumulated water and empty it when needed.
Fittings are also common, readily available just about anywhere!
To save explanations, here is a link to just one of those housings I refer to:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10-x2-5-Clear-Tinted-Water-Filter-Housing-1-4-BSP-12mm-Ports-NO-FILTERS-/121145268832?clk_rvr_id=644627629642#

Supplyer in Europe:
German Website: http://shop.purway.de   
for the water-filter unit with the CLEAR housing and also the 1 micron Polyspun cartridge.

All credit for this simple solution goes to Les Banki.

Now I am awaiting the PC B's from Les.
Having these ready made is a great help, saves much time and money too.

Thank You,
Alex

That's Great Tinman Thanks for letting me know

To the new members, i still have some free pcb's if you require any, they are for the Les Banki experimental water splitter, you will find the details a few pages back, i got them made up and sent some out as free gifts, so if you require these PCB's PM me your full name & address and i will send some out when i get a chance.

Cheers
Peter

Hi Peter,

Just to let you know that the nano-pulse circuit boards you sent me have finally arrived today, after 24 days in 'transit'!
MUCH appreciated!

Cheers
Les Banki

Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.27, 13:29:48
Off now to see if altronics has all the bits i need.
Cheers O0
Brad

Brad,

Altronics (being my MAIN supplier) will have most (but not all!) parts you need for those boards.
To make it perhaps a bit easier for you, here are some Altronics part numbers for some of the components:

H-0655 - heath sink
H-0665 - heath sink
R-1978 - 100k pot. (P1)
R-2479B - 5k pot. (P2)
S-5983 - M205 fuse clips

They don't stock the 0.1 ohm resistor (except in 5W), nor do they stock the MOSFET driver TC4420 or the ETD49 ferrite transformer.
You can get them from RS.
Here are the links to those:

http://au.rs-online.com/web/p/through-hole-fixed-resistors/0135487/

http://au.rs-online.com/web/p/mosfet-power-drivers/6811124/

http://au.rs-online.com/web/p/transformer-ferrite-cores/6479468/?origin=PSF_430736|acc

http://au.rs-online.com/web/p/coil-formers/6531207/?searchTerm=ETD49+core&relevancy-data=636F3D3226696E3D4931384E44656661756C74266C753D656E266D6D3D6D61746368616C6C7061727469616C26706D3D5E5B5C707B4C7D5C707B4E647D5C707B5A737D2D2C2F255C2E5D2B2426706F3D3926736E3D592673743D4B4559574F52445F4D554C54495F414C5048415F4E554D455249432673633D592677633D4E4F4E45267573743D455444343920636F726526 

http://au.rs-online.com/web/p/mounting-kits/6479474/?origin=PSF_430734|acc

Also, please note that the 20 holes for the transformer pins are a bit small and needs to be enlarged with a 1.2 or 1.25 mm drill.
Then the transformer will be easier to fit.

I hope this helps....

Cheers,
Les Banki

Dear Les,

Thanks and Yes, all your information helps us in replicating.

Allow me a question:  can you tell the dimension/size in mm of the SAMARIUM Cobalt magnet?
Can You recommend a supplyer with part no. for this.

At my place impossible to get these, only neodymium's and these are not heat resistant I know.

Thanks,
Alex

@ Les,

Hope You can read this, sent You an e-mail and it was rejected with 505 server error.
I am pleased to inform You that today I received the WFG PCB sets in good order.
Very nice and proffessional boards.

This is good NEWS.

Fast processing and NO custom fee or TVA charged.  :-))
Normally they charge ca. € 20,00 for customs handling + 21% TVA for the value of imported goods from outside the EU.

Greetings, Alex

Quote from: kampen72 on 2014.10.28, 15:51:18
Dear Les,

Thanks and Yes, all your information helps us in replicating.

Allow me a question:  can you tell the dimension/size in mm of the SAMARIUM Cobalt magnet?
Can You recommend a supplyer with part no. for this.

At my place impossible to get these, only neodymium's and these are not heat resistant I know.

Thanks,
Alex

Alex,

Yes, you need a 'Samarium Cobalt' magnet which can take 250-300 degrees C, without losing power.
They are sold by several companies but here is the link to one in the UK:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Strong-Samarium-Cobalt-rod-magnets-5mm-dia-x-10mm-S2-17-craft-fridge-fishing-/141000283138?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item20d4459402

Cheers,
Les Banki

Hi Guys

My name is Peter. I am from Qld Australia .
A big thanks to Les and all the others here who have a positive input to this thread. I really do appreciate you guys who are actually doing something and shareing what your doing , even if you find out later you did it wrong ( like I just have )  I appreciate your courage and your efforts to share . No one ever achieved anything positive with out the help of others.

I am the person who Les refers too as the carpenter\builder on Reply #73
Everything Les has said about me is true and correct . Ive known Les for about 3 or 4 years now . One of the great things I like about Les is that he struggles to exaggerate and hates lies. Fairly opposite to me really, I have been known to do  both with ease.

I am a biased believer in "Overunity" especially where Hydroxy concerned  and I have NO proof or evidence to support this belief at all (other than my own small experiences) . Plus I don't care if others don't believe and I don't like to argue the pros and cons either. One thing I do believe strongly is that "Tesla" 70 years ago understood twice as much about  "Energy" then most electrical engineers  today (with all the so called advancements in technology and this great shareing tool called the internet) sometimes too much information can destroy ones ability to experiment for ourselves and think outside the box.  Tesla's biggest problem was he didn't approach business people with enough respect and savvy . Other wise this energy equation would have been solved by now .

For a while, I wasn't going to post anything here , my technical explanations would only probably do more  harm then help. And really I am just a simple replicator\builder who pays others to do things. I'm no genius . I just have a simple vision. Water contains power and there is a way to unlock , contain and deliver it in a safe and economical way.

I am not interested in arguing or debateing anything at all , so I probably wont respond to anyones post . If you are a biased believer like myself and want to ask simple questions , you can PM me . If by your own past posts , you come across as an agitator , don't be surprised if I don't reply.  I probably wont respond straight away  either , because I work fairly big hours .
The main reason that I felt to say something right now is that we had a small but quite dangerous explosion a few weeks ago . We had planned to make a video to show Les and within 30 secounds the device exploded . The quality of our build was slightly poor and inaccurate , proving to us how dangerous and volatile Hydroxy is . Please be carefull. Always wear eye protection, the liquid koh can blind you .

We have to rebuild the outer case and seal off the arcing . Testing , testing and more SAFE testing is the key. Do not get complacent, or you will get hurt.

I will try and attach some photos of the smashed caseing . Also if you are thinking of building an electrolyser , please be warned , its expensive and very time consuming . Plus there seems to be great periods of time where there seems to nothing happening , cause your waiting for people or supplies to get to you . Do your home work before you start building . Count the cost . I now see it as this great adventure of discovery  .

Too all the mad scientists and experimenters  , I salute you. Down with the naysayers , off with their heads . Enjoy the chase .

Peter B

Welcome Peter, that was quite a build, pity it blew up :'(

I work on the small scale to prove an item and let others build big once the proof of concept is there.

Keep up the good work, and be careful

regards

Mike 8)

Dear Peter.

Oh my goodness, what a mess !!  Is that case made from Polycarbonate ?

I have attached a little drawing that might help save the cell case from total destruction. It would allow the expansion to simply lift the top cover just like a large safety valve.

As an aside, I remember reading about the specification for the early Brayton cycle engines. These engines mixed air and Town gas and then compressed it into a storage chamber that was also part of the engine's construction. It was stated that the casing must be made of the finest Ordnance Bronze to withstand a blow back, which, from what I can gather, they suffered quite often !! They too had a large diameter cap held down by springs as a safety device.

If it is of any consolation we are now into double figure bubbler destruction !!   :)

Cheers Grum.

Dear Peter,

Sorry to hear about your accident with your Electrolyser tank.
Just saw the picture(s).
Hope You are safe and NOT get hurt too much by the explosion.

Can you recap/analyse what went wrong and caused the arcing with the fatal outcome.

Please share it, we can all learn from previous mistakes.

Greetings, Alex

Quote from: Grumage on 2014.11.01, 13:40:41
I have attached a little drawing that might help save the cell case from total destruction. It would allow the expansion to simply lift the top cover just like a large safety valve.

As an aside, I remember reading about the specification for the early Brayton cycle engines. These engines mixed air and Town gas and then compressed it into a storage chamber that was also part of the engine's construction. It was stated that the casing must be made of the finest Ordnance Bronze to withstand a blow back, which, from what I can gather, they suffered quite often !! They too had a large diameter cap held down by springs as a safety device.

If it is of any consolation we are now into double figure bubbler destruction !!   :)

Cheers Grum.

Graham (& others),

Excuse me saying so but destroying flash-back arrestors one after the other, is the WRONG  approach to 'solve' flash-back problems!

It should be obvious (and logical!) that the very first thing which MUST be done is to ELIMINATE the source or reason for the 'flash-backs' in the first place!
Period.

It is perfectly possible to make backfire-free set-ups, where flash-back arrestors are only needed as safety devices, in case of malfunctioning parts or equipment.

Further, it is also perfectly possible to make electrolysers which can withstand the full force of any flashback!

Graham, I would like to point out that the spring-loaded top would NOT save the electrolyser from blowing to pieces!
I can give you two examples of WHY that is so:

One is an experiment done by Dr William Rhodes, the inventor of the multi-cell electrolysis,
the other is my own, repeated experiments, proving the same point!

Here is a quote from a document written by Dr William Rhodes:

"It is noted that any sharp metallic whisker in the storage atmosphere could cause an explosion, similar to the dangers of storing high percentage hydrogen peroxide,
where the entire contents can burst into high pressure steam with disastrous results, just because somewhere in the interior someone forgot to round off a sharp edge.

On the other hand, these mixed gases were ignited repeatedly in a 4 liter container of 16 gage iron with flat ends and spark plug. 
The only evidence of ignition was a sharp click, with no damage to the vessel.

A recent report revealed one experimenter was wounded with shrapnel from such explosion.         
The only way this might happen is from accumulation in an unusually thin container, or one made from an easily fractured plastic.

However, a duplication of the original multicell unit was constructed of 3/4" Plexiglas with an interior volume of 8 liters.   
Half of this was filled with electrolyte leaving 4 liters for foam and gas accumulation, (Identical to the volume of the iron container).
The multicell had a 2.5" diameter rupturable diaphragm of food grade Saran wrap.                             

The unit was set on a stand in the open and ignited.                                                                                   

The resultant pop splintered the case into many pieces which were all deposited within a radius of 5 feet around the stand.                                                                                                                                         

The diaphragm remained intact.

Such indicated the sonic wave front was responsible instead of pressure which would have ruptured the diaphragm.

These tests allowed us to design electrolyzer tanks of materials and thicknesses that could contain flashbacks.                                                                                                                                                           

Viewing the permanent Plexiglas multicell in operation, electrolyte foam rises upward, but at maximum elevation allows sufficient gas space above.

Therefore no purpose is served with designs containing more gas than necessary for conduction out of the reservoir.   
Extrapolation of chart curves indicate a possible diesel type explosion as pressure approaches 400 psi.                                                                                                                                         
However, this is not conclusive.                                                                                                                 
Generation of such single ducted gases appears to be an event not found in nature, unless lightening produces them.

(For more details, see attached article.)

The second example is my own experience.

My first 120 cell electrolyser – without a top - was used for a large number of explosion tests!
It was simply placed in a large, open plastic box on the floor so any electrolyte spill was contained.
Every time someone who was interested in water fuel visited me, I was showing them the power of 'Brown's Gas'!

The "test" was simple.
Applied power to the electrolyser for just a few seconds, bubbles formed on the entire top surface,
then turned the power off.
Lit a match and threw it on the top of the electrolyser!
DEAFENING explosions with just a few bubbles, NO pressure involved!
You probably can't imagine the effect of this 'demo' on most people!

The point of the story is that after a few of those 'explosions', the 15 mm thick Acrylic casing was cracking MANY places and started leaking electrolyte (but it did not explode).
All that with an OPEN top.

So yes, SHOCKWAVES, NOT pressure which does the damage!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Dear Les.

Thank you for taking the time to explain what actually happens, it is appreciated.

I am most familiar with our, what I see now as rather benign gasses!!   :)

It would seem that the utmost care and attention to detail should be employed in the cell construction.

For me, Perspex, or Plexiglass, as most know it would be a bad idea as it is very brittle. I would use Polycarbonate and perhaps a large concrete bunker !!   :)

Thanks again.

Cheers Graham.

Interesting read:

http://www.rexresearch.com/spiros/spiros.htm

Surely there's something in there we have missed.

Hi  Mike, Grum, and Alex

Thanks for the encouragement .  Alex , the machinist had trouble slitting the acrylic , so we had to alter the design a smigen. . Bottom line , when ever your building something,  you have never built before , things will go wrong .  The lesson is test in 5 secound intervals . Dont let the gas build up . The positive of our disaster is no one got hurt and our respect and knowledge grew  very quickly. Amatures have to get lucky every so often . .

We should have the outer case finished in about 10 days

Onwards and upwards

Pete B

Quote from: Grumage on 2014.11.03, 11:03:47
I would use Polycarbonate and perhaps a large concrete bunker !!   :)
Cheers Graham.

Graham,

While Polycarbonate is 'bullet proof' (and expensive!), if you decide to use it, keep in mind that it is NOT
compatible with KOH so you need to use NaOH with it.  (slightly less efficient)

The "concrete bunker" can be substituted with a tight fitting, 2 mm thick steel 'skin' all around the electrolyser! ;D

Cheers,
Les Banki

Dear Les,

Thank You again for sharing your idea:
The "concrete bunker" can be substituted with a tight fitting, 2 mm thick steel 'skin' all around the electrolyser!

I certainly will apply and adapt this 2 mm thick steel "skin" on my electrolyser, for safety reasons.

All,

Nano-pulse system notes....

Judging by the feed-back I am getting, there seem to be a lot of confusion and misunderstandings about the nano-pulse electrolysis method.

First of all, many readers don't seem to understand WHY the nano-pulse method will only work with single cells but NOT with multi-cell arrangements!!

Yet, the reason is clearly explained in the original Japanese article: "A novel method of hydrogen generation by water electrolysis using an ultra-short-pulse power supply"

The other, MAJOR problem seems to be the failure to understand the operating principle of the IES (Inductive Energy Storage) unit used in the nano-pulse set-up.

All those who have read the Indian and Japanese articles (and others) on the nano-pulse subject know that NO explanation was given as to the operation of the IES unit!!

In my opinion, that is the most likely cause of failed experiments by several researchers!

I have put some technical explanations in a document format, mainly to retain text formatting and emphasis which, regrettably, is mostly lost in Forum posts!

Note also that I have made a MAJOR design change by completely eliminating the SIThy or its substitute.

More about all this in the "nano-pulse system technical details.doc".

Cheers,
Les Banki

Looking back at my old publications I find that I wrote a paper in 2010 about pulse charging of lead-acid batteries.  This made the point that a very fast pulse would supply electric charge to the electrodes of energy value determined by the electrical capacitance, and having nothing to do with the chemical reactions since they won't have got going.  Then when the chemistry does get going you get charging that could be OU.  Thought it might be of interest to this thread.

Smudge 

Quote from: Smudge on 2014.11.24, 16:19:03
Looking back at my old publications I find that I wrote a paper in 2010 about pulse charging of lead-acid batteries.

This is classic desulphating procedure.

Did you observe any desulphating processes? You were probably not looking and were not using dodgy batteries.

Hello All,

see enclosed pictures of my test-setup for making the grooves for the Electrolyser tank.

Electrolyser Tank assembly test-setup.

Alex,

I hope you don't mind if I make some comments about your last two posts.

On your illustration/drawing of the electrolyser, I see you are still repeating the same error which I have already pointed out to you, TWICE!

The ERROR is that you have placed the two grooved sides on the TOP of the grooved bottom!
In that case, you will have 138 OPEN groove ends on BOTH sides, which will render the filling system completely USELESS and could have a SERIOUS current leakage!

On the groove machining method, please note that in order to assure PERFECT line-up of the grooves between the two sides and the bottom,
the grooves SHOULD be machined on a SINGLE piece of Acrylic (or whatever you are using) and then cut into 3 pieces.

This may not apply if a PRECISION CNC machine is used for cutting the grooves.

Note, however, that the size 500 x 500 mm Acrylic board indicated in my 'Electrolyser instruction.doc' only applies if vacuum clamping of the work piece is used.
Otherwise, the board(s) must be larger in order to accommodate the clamps.
After all the grooves have been cut, the excess must be cut off and the pieces trimmed to correct sizes.

Some of you who read this may already know that I have designed/made a dedicated, semi-automatic "groove cutting machine" (GCM), somewhat similar to a CNC router/milling machine.
It has been operational for about 6 months.

(It will be pulled apart later in order to paint it since MDF is sensitive to moisture/water!)

Further, I also designed/made an automatic vacuum work holding system for this machine. 
There are NO clamps, NO bolts, NO holes in the work table!
Work piece is fitted & released in seconds!

For those who may be interested, I have attached a few photos of the GCM, showing some details.
Points to note about this machine are:

The X-axis drive and the saw motors are both reversible, 12V DC, 100W, 2930 RPM.
Even with a very slow feed, a 100W motor is unable to cut 5 mm deep grooves in a single cut!

I cut only 1.25mm deep in each 'pass', thus 4 'passes' to get 5mm deep groves.
(Note here that to cut in a single pass would require a motor of at least 500-800W rating!)

I use a rack & pinion drive system for the Y-axis, operated by a small (but very powerful!) geared motor (50:1) which can deliver a massive 50kg torque at 55RPM! 
(see photo – GCM_Y-axis_drive_motor.jpg)

This 12V DC motor is also reversible and I designed/made the control logic and reversing circuits for all the motors.
The 30A speed controller (PWM) is commercially made since one cannot even buy the parts for the price of a ready made one!

The switch mode power supply is 12V/29A, supplying everything, including several LED strip lights on the machine.

There is also a digital counter for the number of grooves.

The 'pitch' of the X-axis lead-screw (12mm diameter SS all-tread) is 1.75mm, thus 2 turns for 3.5mm spacing between groove centres. 

The vacuum is adjustable and it is set to about 23 in/Hg, with a Hysteresis (also adjustable) of about 3 in/Hg.
Thus, the vacuum pump only operates for a few seconds every 3-4 minutes.

It took me about 18 months to design/make this machine and I dare say it may not be for everyone!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Thanks for the remark, Les.
I noticed the error, my mistake in assembling bottom and sidewalls and Yes I will change it following your instructions.

About your GCM, what can I say, it's a remarkable piece of engineering and machine work.

My COMPLIMENTS for your work.

You are a talented man in electronics, engineering and constructions.

Greetings, Alex

Hi Alex,

Thank you for the compliments but you are also doing excellent mechanical work yourself!

You have the right idea to fit the slitting saw assembly to your milling machine.
(It seems to be a very LARGE machine!  Is it CNC equipped?)

I hope others will 'pick-up' on this also.

Further, if such a slitting saw assembly is fitted to a suitable CNC machine and the programming is done correctly, cutting the grooves will be a trivial task, "a piece of cake"!

Which leads me to another point:

Some readers may wonder WHY I decided to go to all that trouble and expense to design/make the GCM!?
No, it wasn't only an engineering challenge!

Initially, I requested quotes from companies using CNC machines of various types and sizes.

But guess what! 
The quotes were between $1200 – 1500!!!
For a piece of Acrylic with 138 grooves!

I was thoroughly disgusted, nay - pissed off - with the GREED so I decided to make my own machine!

(I do have a fair size milling machine which I fitted out with a 3-axis digital readout a few years ago but it is MANUAL (no power feed) and it is not big enough for this job!)

So there you have it....

Cheers,
Les Banki

Bloody hell les! You have got some mad skills. I'm in awe.

kampen72 and JimBoot have said it well!

Ditto

Incredible work Les!

@ All,

about making the grooves: very expensive
Yes, I can confirm that. Done this job by a commercial CNC-workshop is incredible expensive.
Requested quotes from 3 different companies the price is between € 1300 up to 1500, Yes that's the price in euro (at my place The Netherlands)
Update: that's the reason I decided to make it by myself with a abandoned CNC-machine.

@ Les,
Now we succeed in perfect fitting/adapting the slitting-saw and Yes this unit is CNC equipped, works fantastic now for this job.
During CNC-slitting machine is making the grooves we can drink coffee. O0

Greetings, Alex

Quote from: kampen72 on 2014.12.05, 18:41:34

Requested quotes from 3 different companies the price is between € 1300 up to 1500, Yes that's the price in euro (at my place The Netherlands)

Do you have a nearby University with a department of Mechanical Engineering? If so, they will have an extensive workshop and they may do it for relatively little, a few pints of beer or even nothing at all. You might get a second year student interested in co-operating.

@ All,

this is the setup  for the CNC machine (for making the grooves)
Adapting  METABO OFE-738 (600W) with the circular cutting-saw.
Cutting saw-blade HSS with center hole 6mm outside diam. 60mm with 60 teeth, blade thickness 0.55mm.
Spindel speed 10.000, feed rate moving-speed 350 mm per/min.
Board HDPE-1000 Green, thikness 20 mm, size 550 x 550 mm

Updated:
See below pictures showing the details.

Good Day All

First off I would like to say thanks to Peter for the PCB boards, they arrived here this week O0

OK, I have studied the two boards and notice that the design has provisions for the 2nd MOSFET (SITHy substitute) on the XFRMR board.

Now I see that Les Banki has made a further revision to the design eliminating the 2nd MOSFET completely (revision #8).

My questions:

Has anyone begun to assemble this PCB yet?

Should the board be modified to eliminate the 2nd MOSFET as in the Les Banki revision #8?

Regarding the XFRMR, should be fly-back style.....  any ideas on final step-up voltage?  N1/N2=?

Any suggestions?

Take care, peace
lost_bro

Quote from: lost_bro on 2014.12.11, 16:08:57
Good Day All

First off I would like to say thanks to Peter for the PCB boards, they arrived here this week O0

OK, I have studied the two boards and notice that the design has provisions for the 2nd MOSFET (SITHy substitute) on the XFRMR board.

Now I see that Les Banki has made a further revision to the design eliminating the 2nd MOSFET completely (revision #8).

My questions:

Has anyone begun to assemble this PCB yet?

Should the board be modified to eliminate the 2nd MOSFET as in the Les Banki revision #8?

Regarding the XFRMR, should be fly-back style.....  any ideas on final step-up voltage?  N1/N2=?

Any suggestions?

Take care, peace
lost_bro

Hi 'lost_bro'

You can still use those boards (despite the design changes) with some minor modifications. 
Just follow the circuit diagram 'nanopup8.sch.pdf' but also look at the pcb pattern of the new, single board.

Note that the MOSFET (Q1) is a HV type (1500V) as the expected fly-back pulse amplitude is around 1000V or more!
Also note that there is NO "step-up" in the transformer!
The turns ratio is 1:1.

I hope this helps....

Cheers,
Les Banki

Quote from: Les Banki on 2014.12.12, 01:46:19
Hi 'lost_bro'

You can still use those boards (despite the design changes) with some minor modifications. 
Just follow the circuit diagram 'nanopup8.sch.pdf' but also look at the pcb pattern of the new, single board.

Note that the MOSFET (Q1) is a HV type (1500V) as the expected fly-back pulse amplitude is around 1000V or more!
Also note that there is NO "step-up" in the transformer!
The turns ratio is 1:1.

I hope this helps....

Cheers,
Les Banki

Thanks Les,

Ok, I will study the version 8 pdf...... Have some 1.6KV Cree SiC MOSFETS lying around waiting to be put to good use.  I'll check out the driver specs and figure out what I'll need to change to integrate them into this project. O0

I take it you recommend making the modifications necessary as to follow version 8 prototype and eliminate the 2nd MOSFET altogether.... The SiC MOSFET will fit pattern (TO-247) on the XFRMR PCB so I will have the driver on the first PCB and the MOSFET on the 2nd PCB......

Take care, peace
lost_bro

@ All,

Updated:
this is the setup  for the CNC machine (for making the grooves)
Adapting  METABO OFE-738 (600W) with the circular cutting-saw.
Techn.Specs:
Cutting saw-blade HSS with center hole 6mm outside diam. 60mm with 60 teeth, blade thickness 0.55mm.
Spindel speed 10.000, feed rate moving-speed 350 mm per/min.
Board HDPE-1000 Green, thikness 20 mm, size 550 x 550 mm

Updated: see message # 272
See pictures showing the details.

Hi Alex & those who might be making electrolysers....! O0

Here is a dead simple, "fool-proof" test set-up for the electrolyser!

It eliminates the possibility of 'measurement errors' and unlike the 'ss2kweps', it does not need the 12V power supply!

Make up a power cord which can handle at least 10A.

A standard (10A) mains plug, a 15A fuse or circuit breaker in series, connected to the bridge rectifier (400V/35A) AC connections.
The negative connection of the bridge rectifier is connected DIRECTLY to the electrolyser and the positive is connected to the +10A DC 'moving coil' panel meter and the other (-) of the meter is connected to the electrolyser.
(make sure the polarity is correct!)

See attached circuit diagram.

By the way, this meter is intended to be permanently attached to the electrolyser, in order to continuously monitor the current.
The mechanical inertia of the 'moving coil' integrates the pulsating DC current nicely and the current reading is accurate enough for this purpose.

The bridge rectifier MUST be mounted on a heath sink with "thermal grease".

I suggest that you first fill the electrolyser only half way and read the current on the meter.

The rest should be obvious.....

If you also wish to monitor the total AC power consumption of the electrolyser, you can use one of those simple, cheap - and surprisingly accurate - power meters which are available just about everywhere!
Just so you know what I am talking about, I have attached an image of one.
There are many brands.  Expect to pay around $20 – 30. 
(The one in the photo is $25.00)

Cheers,
Les Banki

Thank You Les,
very clear and understandable your instructions for TESTING the Electrolyser.

Today I finished in thermal hot-air welding the side walls and bottom of the Electrolyser tank.

Continue assembling the Electrolyser tank.
See below picture(s)

Alex,

Sorry to be a "kill-joy" this time but while you do EXCELLENT mechanical work, unfortunately you seem to regularly either overlook or deliberately ignore some details of my writings/explanations!

As a result, you are going to experience problems which you may NOT be able to solve yourself!

One such 'problem' is the electrolyte (water) level detection and refill.

Everyone should read the short article I wrote many years ago, titled
"Re-fiiling electrolysers.doc".
(attached)

This post is intended to serve as a reminder to all those who intend to 'replicate' my set-up:
there is a technical REASON for all the design details!

Quote from my 'Electrolyser_instructions.doc":

"My electrolyser design is based on 0.55mm thick SS316 plates and the 'housing' material is
15-20mm thick CLEAR Acrylic (for the time being), for several reasons:
Compatibility with KOH, temperature resistance, ideal for optical level sensing & observing electrolysis activity, easy detection of electrolyte contamination, easy machining, etc."

Clearly, both the inner and outer electrolyser tanks you are making cannot use the optical level sensing I designed for this set-up. 

Basically, there are only two other options:
Fit CLEAR (Acrylic) "windows" for the IR beams (which is possible but is NOT an easy task!) OR,
some other detection method (capacitive or magnetic proximity) needs to be developed.
In either case, you are on your own!!

Further, you seem to have also ignored my drawing of the end view of the double tank arrangement, which clearly shows the bottom to be removable (note the gasket!).
You choose to weld on the bottom of the outer tank, thereby having NO access to set up and adjust  the filling lever!

Cheers,
Les Banki

There are loads of automatic liquid level detection and top up systems. It is a common industrial problem.

Quote from: Paul-R on 2014.12.17, 15:05:37
There are loads of automatic liquid level detection and top up systems. It is a common industrial problem.

Paul-R,

No, this post is NOT just "having a go at you" but is intended to set the record straight for everyone about my entire WFGP design, which is simply NOT up for discussion or arguments.

It is what it is - take it – or leave it!

If anyone wants to change it in some way - by all means – DO IT!
But DON'T complain if it does not perform the way it was meant to!

The issue here is liquid level sensing and re-fill.

Has it ever occurred to you that I am familiar with virtually all available methods and have even designed some in the past few years for various purposes?

Sure, there are MANY different types commercially available but if you find one and try to implement it for this purpose, I wish you LUCK! 
You will need it!

It is obvious that you don't know the technical implications of sensing highly corrosive electrolyte level in the inner tank, which is inside another tank, also containing the same corrosive electrolyte!

Note that in my set-up – using OPTICAL (IR) sensing, there are NO sensors (or even parts of any  sensor or wire connection) in either tank!

In short: the entire level sensing in both tanks are done from the OUTSIDE!

Well, then, IF any of you can do better than that – be my guest!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Dear Les,
thank you for your remark and warning note.
It's good to know that you are watching and helping.

Let me explain;
I have chosen to make the Electrolysertank with the HDPE board (black) because this is relative low cost, also the cell-tank board HDPE-1000 (green)
is low cost. HDPE-1000 black/green price euro 85,- and 110,- p/m2.

At my place the Acrylic transparent board in 20 mm thickness is insane expensive cost euro 450,- p/m2 without cutting, for each cutting they charge euro 7,50 extra.

Note: this is my first attempt to make a serie Electrolysertank and I want to explore the details in making it with relative low-cost material.

So far so good, now I succeed in making the groves and also the outside tank.
Next step is testing the outside-tank if it can hold 1 bar pressure without leaking, then I can testing it with electrolyte.
Later on I can always adapt the IR-level-sensing with optical lens.
Will continue next year, leaving tomorrow for Christmas Holidays.

Wish You all a MERRY CHRISTMAS and HAPPY NEW YEAR.
Greetings, Alex

Timer for the WFGP

In my "Timer & timer interphase.doc" I have indicated that a timer is NOT essential for this project.

However, it is still annoying to find that the timer I picked for the task all those years ago is now hard to obtain outside Australia.

I designed the interphase circuit for it in 2007.
The timer – model 870A – is still sold here by Dick Smith but Alex (kampen72) has reported that they refused to supply him!  (he is in the Netherlands)

This could mean that they would probably NOT supply to any other country either!

Finding the original supplier or manufacturer (in China, of coarse!) is just about impossible!
(But even if you did find them, they would most likely NOT be willing to supply "one-offs"!)

All this prompted me to look for another timer, which is easier to obtain.

Yes, I found one with almost identical functions but which works somewhat differently (technically) and thus require a new interphase circuit.
I have already modified one of the new timers and have designed an interphase circuit for it.

Keeping in mind that some people might find it physically challenging to modify these timers (both the new and the old types) it would probably be a better idea to supply the timer & interphase circuit combination, ready to be used.

To give you an idea what these timers look like, I have attached a photo of both.

Note that the "old" 'timerint.pcb' was NOT published in the WFGP folders but the circuit diagram and the description were/are.

For those who may be interested in the pcb layout, I have attached the file in the original Protel format.

A very useful feature of BOTH timer types is that in their "Count-up" mode, they DO NOT cut the power off after 24 hours but continue running INDEFINITELY!!

Cheers,
Les Banki

Dear Les,
Thank you for posting info about the NEW Timer.
Can You give us more details, model/type number and where we can order these?

I have now successfully finished the pressure test for my Electrolsyertank and also made a safety case for.
The Electrolyser tank is now fully covered shielded with a 3 mm thickness galvanised steel plate (as suggested by Les) and additionally the top/bottom
also the corners extra with a 3 mm thickness aluminium plate.

See below the pictures:
The black box with Amp/Voltage meter contains the electronic components for the Power Supply testing the Electrolyser (credit to Les)

Updated pictures:
Above the black box with Amp and Voltage meter contains the electronic components for the Power Supply for testing the Electrolyser (credit to Les)

Pictures below showing the Anode/Cathode SS-316L plate(s) with the EPDM sealing:
Note: the Anode and Cathode SS-316L plate(s) placed between the green HDPE bars are of course only for illustration purpose.
These must be mounted on the inside wall of the Electrolyser tank.

Updated pictures:
Assembling Electrolyser tank

Updated pictures:
Black box Power Supply with Amp/Voltage meter:
contains the electronic components for testing the Electrolyser (credit to Les)

Very nice workmanship O0

keep at it

regards

Mike 8)

Updated pictures:
Anode and Cathode END PLATES (2 pcs.) (90 x 100 mm with 2mm thickness) grade SS-316L
These must be mounted on the inside wall of the Electrolyser tank.

Updated pictures:
Anode and Cathode END PLATES are now mounted on the inside wall of the Electrolyser tank.

Amazing workmanship Kampen  O0

@ All,

Thank you for the compliments.......
Next week I will start with glasspearl blasting (non-ferro material, 80 grid) 2 of the cell-plates SS-316L just for TESTING.
When finished will show the picture(s).

Quote from: kampen72 on 2015.01.29, 19:14:35
Thank you for the compliments.......

Beautiful workmanship Kampen, really looking forward to seeing how this performs.  If it works anything like it looks, it's going to be a winner.

Please keep all your jigs and construction tools--you may be getting some requests for replicas.

Electrolyser Cell plate(s) surface treatment:

I have glass pearl blasted the surface of some cell-plates for testing purpose.
The surface of the SS-316L plates as you can see are very equal treated and testing these cells they perform excellent in making much gas, after a couple of minutes visible a milky water solution and NO bubbles are sticking at all on the cell-plates surface.

Unfortunately after the glass pearl treatment occurs massive distortion on the cell-plates and even with the lowest possible pressure (0.8 Bar) applied for blasting
the distortion occurs and this is a disaster in handling, unable to place them in the narrow slots.

Any advise and or help to solve this problem is welcome.
See below the pictures:

Quote from: kampen72 on 2015.02.04, 18:46:22
Electrolyser Cell plate(s) surface treatment:

I have glass pearl blasted the surface of some cell-plates for testing purpose.
The surface of the SS-316L plates as you can see are very equal treated and testing these cells they perform excellent in making much gas, after a couple of minutes visible a milky water solution and NO bubbles are sticking at all on the cell-plates surface.

Unfortunately after the glass pearl treatment occurs massive distortion on the cell-plates and even with the lowest possible pressure (0.8 Bar) applied for blasting
the distortion occurs and this is a disaster in handling, unable to place them in the narrow slots.

Any advise and or help to solve this problem is welcome.
See below the pictures:

Unfortunately, you are peening the surface, which relieve stresses in the material. This causes the distortion. You may be able to heat the plates in the oven (540 F or as close to it as you can get) for a period of time(15 minutes or so), and they may relax. I'm not sure about stainless. I know steel will.

James

Alex (& others),

My "Electrolyser_instructions.doc" gives a clear WARNING about 'sandblasting' and also describes how and why "cross-hatching" should be done!

You either did not read it or choose to ignore the advise.

Keep in mind that the instructions in that document are not only mine but also from those who have been working with HydrOxy even LONGER than I have!

Further, just WHY do you think I have published as much information as I have?
To waste Forum "band-width"???

No, you cannot "save" those buckled plates.
End of story.

Cheers,
Les Banki

Quote from: Les Banki on 2015.02.05, 00:39:03
Alex (& others),

My "Electrolyser_instructions.doc" gives a clear WARNING about 'sandblasting' and also describes how and why "cross-hatching" should be done!

You either did not read it or choose to ignore the advise.

Keep in mind that the instructions in that document are not only mine but also from those who have been working with HydrOxy even LONGER than I have!

Further, just WHY do you think I have published as much information as I have?
To waste Forum "band-width"???

No, you cannot "save" those buckled plates.
End of story.

Cheers,
Les Banki

Les,

Although I can't find your warnings about "sand blasting", Kampen didn't sand blast anything. He bead blasted it, and that is a totally different process. It does use air for propelling the media, but that is where the similarities end.

Can you state why bead blasting isn't an effective surface treatment?

James