Asymmetric Capacitor

[Peterae]

We Know that asymmetric capacitors can produce thrust and from when i did work on this about 5 years ago the total amount of thrust was not accounted for in physics, most of the thrust was the result of ionic wind, when i carried out experiments i worked with a 0.1 gram weighting scales and was producing enclosed asym caps which lost weight when  powered, this cancelled out the ionic wind movement, the effect is proportional to cathode mass, voltage across the dielectric and related to diameter of the anode(The smaller the diameter the greater the effect)

Anyway to my point, i am not sure if this makes sense but does anyone have any idea how to construct the equivalent asymmetric inductor or is it even possible to create an asym inductor.

[BEP]

Anyway to my point, i am not sure if this makes sense but does anyone have any idea how to construct the equivalent asymmetric inductor or is it even possible to create an asym inductor.

Maybe these will help.

Left and right have ferrite magnet cores. The center one has a common button magnet on one end of a powdered iron core. I'm sure you've seen them before 

[BEP]

Here is a little reference material for the middle choke.  http://www.google.com/patents/about/5179322_Linearity_correction_apparatus.html?id=KjQeAAAAEBAJ

I haven't needed to find documentation before so I haven't found anything on the other two.

The middle one is a bit unique but the outer ones work the same as if the core was not magnetic but a separate DC bias coil was included.
In other words.... The inductance (and therefore the impedance) is different depending upon the frequency or direction of current applied (and for some of these... the intensity of current).

I would call that an asymmetric inductor 

Of course, since the static field of a magnet has absolutely no affect upon a coil - the folks designing these must have been quacks 

[Peterae]

Maybe these will help.

Left and right have ferrite magnet cores. The center one has a common button magnet on one end of a powdered iron core. I'm sure you've seen them before

Thanks for posting the images WW

The left and right coils, i have seen similar in TVs but never remember any with a bias wind, the convergence coils are so long ago for me now to remember working on them, i wish i could find some circuits of those early TVs.

The middle coil i have seen many over the years but never realized there was a magnet on top, they always looked like a ferrite top, it's times like this i wish a filled my loft space with old chassis, we would dump them by the Tons twice a year 

So you are saying that this makes an asymmetric inductor, now that is good news

[Paul-R]

I am a bity at a loss here, probably because I am not up at the level of you lot.

An asymmetric cap has a large plate, a bit of dielectric and a small plate. This means
that the pull of the large plate on the "gap" is more than the pull of the small
plaste on the dielectric gap, and a consequent resultant force.

If a cap can do something, then maybe an inductor can as well. Neat idea. But
how do we get forces out of coils in an inductor?

Put in a magnetic field, a coil carrying a current will receive a force. If there are
two coils, then there would be a resultant force, but then there was a resultant
force in the first place anyway.

I think there is an idea in here somewhere.

Paul-R

[Peterae]

Hi Paul-R

indeed just trying to get like minds working.

With the cap the unknown developed force i believe is related to the shape of the electrodes and the way the ions are released from the anode, hence a smaller diameter wire creates a greater force, because there is less cross sectional area, asymmetrical caps can be created by using a flat disc with the anode as a vertical pin standing up in the middle of the disk but insulated from the disc

I guess with respect to a conventional transformer where the primary is smaller diameter and the secondary is larger diameter we are part way, if the core was removed and the secondary was flat i wonder what would happen then, in this case we would have a asymmetrical capacitive transformer   A sort of bifilar with 1 thin wire on top of the edge of a wide flat wire.

I wonder what would happen if the inductor started with a thick wire gauge and progressed to a smaller diameter along it's wound length and then this thing was pulsed at high frequency.

Many ideas here for experimentation.

[ion]

Perhaps a shaped magnetic field like a tapered inductor or something similar to Walter Russells square function coils.

[BEP]

Motive force is the target?

If so, only the center coil in my pic may have a chance.

The two outer ones have a full length cylindrical magnet core. Any forces developed between the magnet and coil will be radial and even all the way around.

The center one is different in that the magnet is only at one end. Yes, the core it is glued to is ferrous but the right amount and direction of current will separate the magnet and core, magnetically (into separate fields). One current direction will aid attraction between the magnet and core. The other will hinder attraction. If the latter is strong enough (equal to the magnet's field) a radial field will be developed between the coil/core and the magnet. Any possible motion detected would on have the ambient field to push against.

I know that happens but I haven't looked for unidirectional motion.

After my homework is finished and there is time before bed I'll try it.

As far as special shapes of coils.... I doubt there will be a positive result as the potential of the B field doesn't change from one end of the coil to the other. The same amount of 'field lines' enter as exit.



 

[ion]

From WW

As far as special shapes of coils.... I doubt there will be a positive result as the potential of the B field doesn't change from one end of the coil to the other. The same amount of 'field lines' enter as exit.

Maybe and maybe not. The idea is to have a difference in the density i.e the lines taper outwards at the less dense region. The # of lines could still be the same.

In the asymmetrical capacitor there is a dense region of charge and a less dense region of charge.

Here is a picture of an asymmetric  ceramic cap (barium titanate) I had specially made at HIGH ENERGY CORP..

[Peterae]

Very interesting guys, ha ha the ions from the small wire in the asym cap could be equivalent to forcing more flux lines out from a small point, these flux lines then induce current over a large surface area or many wires at once.As ION said about shaped field

My mind keeps telling me we should be operating the coil above its first self-resonant frequency so it starts behaving like a capacitor instead of an inductor, the trouble with flux lines is that they are always referenced to their source, as we know with Lenz

[Peterae]

Wow love that cap  

We also know Tesla played with coils that shape

[BEP]

Very interesting guys, ha ha the ions from the small wire in the asym cap could be equivalent to forcing more flux lines out from a small point, these flux lines then induce current over a large surface area or many wires at once.As ION said about shaped field

My mind keeps telling me we should be operating the coil above its first self-resonant frequency so it starts behaving like a capacitor instead of an inductor, the trouble with flux lines is that they are always referenced to their source, as we know with Lenz

ION,

I don't currently have such a conical coil so I may need to make one to answer these questions.

Peterae,

Driving a coil to the negative inductance state may be the right answer.  

Time for homework, now.  

>>Edit...

No joy tonight. Homework has the best of me  ......

[exnihiloest]

We Know that asymmetric capacitors can produce thrust
...

It is only due to leakages. Thrust from asymmetric capacitors and without reaction has been dismissed by Nasa experiments.
http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/GLTRS/browse.pl?2004/CR-2004-213312.html
"It may be concluded that that the ion drift model explains how a thrust is developed by ions pushing on air."

There is another paper of a lifter negative test under very high vacuum but I don't retrieve it.

[EMdevices]

In my more energetic days after grad school, I was working for a defense contractor and interacted with a lot of interesting folks, some had worked at JPL even.    During that time, I learned about the lifters that people were playing with and asymmetrical capacitors in general, and I decided to developed my own Method of Moment code for calculating the net force on a asymmetric capacitor discretized with a fine grid.    At first I obtained a small net force or thrust and that got me very excited, but later I realized it was due to numerical error introduced by the fact that this was a discrete model not a continuous and smooth curved model.   So I made the grid finer in hopes of convincing myself the force might be real, and this net force just became smaller with a smaller grid size, than I refined the grid even more and the force went down even more, almost to 1e-16 N if I remember correctly, all of this while using high voltages like 1e6 volts, which were producing forces on the plates on the order of hundreds or maybe thousands of newtons, and that's when I realized that the forces will always balance out and there is no loop hole, just like theory dictates.   So yes, the small thrust observed is due to the ionic wind as proved by NASA and others.   

On the other hand,  if one desires field propulsion, an almost certain requirement is that we use electroDYNAMICS, not STATICS.

[BEP]

On the other hand,  if one desires field propulsion, an almost certain requirement is that we use electroDYNAMICS, not STATICS.

Hmmm....

We have:

Electrodynamic
Electromagnetic
Electrostatic
Electrostrictive

Magnetodynamic
Magnetoelectric
Magnetostatic
Magnetostrictive

Piezodynamic
Piezoelectric
Piezomagnetic
Piezostrictive

Thermodynamic
Thermoelectric
Thermomagnetic
Thermostrictive

(many more....)

An electrodynamically driven system is one which the mechanical forces are developed by the interactions of currents in a conductor and the magnetic field generated by those currents in reaction to the ambient magnetic field.

Are we saying the best bet is to build a powered compass?   

[Peterae]

It is only due to leakages. Thrust from asymmetric capacitors and without reaction has been dismissed by Nasa experiments.
http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/GLTRS/browse.pl?2004/CR-2004-213312.html
"It may be concluded that that the ion drift model explains how a thrust is developed by ions pushing on air."

There is another paper of a lifter negative test under very high vacuum but I don't retrieve it.

I was producing thrust when the asym caps were sealed in potting compound with zero air movement sourounding the potted caps, the potted caps were on weighing scales and i could easily see a lifting force occur.

It was further assumed that this current involves charged ions which undergo multiple collisions with air.

My tests were not related to collisions with air and definitely showed valid thrust.

Also last time i looked these devices were shown to work in a Hard vacuum some tests that had failed previously to show this were not using a good enough vacuum.

Vacuum-chamber testing for Lifters and Biefeld-Brown technologies have been difficult to conduct, because a hard vacuum is required to eliminate all trace-gasses from the chamber prior to testing. Nonetheless, a number of organizations have been able to achieve hard vacuum at 10–7 Torr or lower pressure, and have run experiments with varying results.

The suggestion of variance in vacuum-chamber results has been claimed to be the product of experimental error because of the conflict in overall results. Purdue University research Hector Serrano was able to create hard vacuum during testing, and yet still observed measurable thrust in his asymmetrical capacitor apparatus. Other testing, such as that by Dr. Jonathan Campell at NASA, indicate quite the opposite – without the presence of an atmosphere, Campbell saw no propulsive motion, which led him to the conclusion that ion-wind was the key to producing propulsive force in Lifters.

Lets not forget Brown found the force originally using sealed stacked plates in a suspended box.
With lifters most of thrust is due to ionic air movement but there is also a small component of thrust which is to my knowledge unexplained bearing in mind i have not studied it for a number of years.
In my tests i also ruled out electrostatic attraction with regard to the movement, this was achieved by varying the orientation of the sealed device with which measurable thrust would follow orientation.

[Peterae]

I've always wanted to return to some experiments at some point, i built a variable frequency fet driven LOPTX stage, and use this to power my asym cells, and when i do the basic lifter style asym cap experiments the anode wire would ionize the air enough to see in the dark and makes the nodes visible and these are spaced under a cm apart in the low kHz, offcourse i wasn't interested in this at the time but could be a visible method of measuring pulsed dc spacing in a standard copper wire

[BEP]

http://jlnlabs.online.fr/plasma/html/oaugdp.htm

I have had a lot of fun with this, as well  

P.S.

I've had much better results with the coil made of coaxial cable with the outer insulation and shield stripped from the coil.

The 'resonance' of the OAUGDP coil plasma is of the plasma, not the coil. The plasma acts more like acoustic waves. You can vary the frequency to see the nodes/anti-nodes.

Make sure your room is dark and let your eyes adjust to the dark before throwing the switch  

[EMdevices]

@Peterae

I was producing thrust when the asym caps were sealed in potting compound with zero air movement sourounding the potted caps, the potted caps were on weighing scales and i could easily see a lifting force occur.

that's quite interesting Peter.   If that is realy a thrust and not attraction to the scales or some dynamic effect while charging (which I knows exists)  than it must be an effect that occurs in the dielectric.   The code I wrote years ago assumed vacum as the dielectric so it is not applicable to your device.  hmmm, I might have to start coding again.    

[BEP]

The code I wrote years ago assumed vacum as the dielectric so it is not applicable to your device.  hmmm, I might have to start coding again.    

I love to write code. Flipping the 'ON' switch for a real experiment is a whole lot more interesting. Sometimes grabbing my master 'Off' switch is even more fun (fire extinguisher hanging next to my bench).

Can you actually let that pesky smoke out of a circuit with your code? I don't need to write code for that. Letting the smoke out comes naturally to me.

Why just write the code?

[EMdevices]

good point WW,  experimentation is more fun.         

I like the simulation and modeling part because it uses theory, and I can improve a design and optimize it before I build it.  Also,  I can predict first, than build and test, and than compare results, and any discrepencies can be used to address the theory and refine it.  I saved companies where I worked over the years millions, by first simulating electromagnetic structures and showing them the predicted results before they had the courage to go build and invest the money.   Theory hasn't let me down yet, but I always look for loop holes and excercise the theory first to see if it supports a new radical view, so I guess I'm more of a theoretician, but I do like to build and play with stuff, that's always fun, but not the smoke part.   

[Peterae]

that's quite interesting Peter.   If that is really a thrust and not attraction to the scales or some dynamic effect while charging (which I knows exists)  than it must be an effect that occurs in the dielectric.   The code I wrote years ago assumed vacum as the dielectric so it is not applicable to your device.  hmmm, I might have to start coding again.

I have still got the dielectric, it just changed substances and because my new potted dielectric cannot move like air i do away with the ionic thrust.
I believe this proves that the asym cap will work in a hard vacuum also because the effect i was seeing is not related to the dielectric coefficient, the dielectric strength is important for breakdown, there are declassified papers saying military was spending millions on dielectric research, offcourse to build a viable craft it is obvious that a sulphurous foam was used for this purpose, it's self healing and can have very high dielectric strength.

[exnihiloest]

I was producing thrust when the asym caps were sealed in potting compound with zero air movement sourounding the potted caps...

Not relevant.
The relevant test is: asym caps in high vacuum. It is the only way to prove that ionized gas is not the cause of the thrust.
Asym caps failed the test. When the pressure was decreased down to µPa, the thrust decreased gradually down to zero.

The test had already been done in the 80's:
"Direct experimental results show that under high vacuum conditions... no detectable propulsive force was electrostatically induced by applying a static potential difference... between test device electrodes..."

The new test gave the same negative result.
Conclusion:
"In spite of decades of speculation about possible new physical principles being responsible for the thrust produced by ACTs and lifters, we find no evidence to support such a conclusion. On the contrary, we find that their operation is fully explained by a very simple theory that uses only electrostatic forces and the transfer of momentum by multiple collisions."
http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2004/CR-2004-213312.pdf

Sure it is a conspiracy from the army wanting to keep for itself a great discovery   

[Peterae]

I am not sure what is driving your comment here ex it has been proven that an asym cap does produce thrust under a hard vacuum

Here's another example and there have been other verified examples
http://www.gravitecinc.com/

[Peterae]

Here's another device built by the same company and then verified by NASA in a NASA research facility
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYMUv1VJ3VQ&NR=1