Exciting results. Really. "Anomalous xs heat" accompanied by RF

[ion]

Steve:

Thanks for getting some of those questions answered.

I can take issue with one or two of the answers, but not at this time as these are fine points and would only deflect focus.

It is more important to concentrate on details of cell construction and a more complete description of the test setup, equipment used etc so that replication is assured..

[PhysicsProf]

Steve:

Thanks for getting some of those questions answered.

I can take issue with one or two of the answers, but not at this time as these are fine points and would only deflect focus.

It is more important to concentrate on details of cell construction and a more complete description of the test setup, equipment used etc so that replication is assured..

I agree, Ion.  My friend is evidently struggling with understanding the increase of input power (seen in the plots of data) from a "constant power" source -- you hit the nail on the head with your question.  At another time, he briefly referred to "excess voltage" during an xs heat episode; but he wasn't very specific about that.

I really found his brief description of the cell and "no nuclear products" intriguing:

It will be in the paper. planer geometry, two Pt foils with the Pd cathode in the middle (1cmx4cmx50 microns) spacing about 2-3 mm between foils
...
no gammas or neutrons and no activation of the cathodes after heat events.  working on low energy x-rays but not there yet.

I look forward to his paper, a standard scientist's approach -- but this can take months, even years.  We can't wait IMO.  And so I'll try Lynx's ideas.

[ion]

So where can we get some platinum and palladium foils at a reasonable price.

Do we have any wealthy benefactors on board?

http://www.goodfellow.com/E/Palladium-Foil.html
http://www.goodfellow.com/E/Platinum-Foil.html

[PhysicsProf]

He says "Pd" for short, but the data plots state that the cathode is actually 90%Pd and 10% Rhodium.
If you can find off-the-shelf foils like that, pls let me know.

I'm thinking I'll go with the hypothesis that the effect occurs because of the addition of NiSO4 (which is cheap) -- he says this sometimes triggers the effect; it appears a necessary if not sufficient condition.  So I'm looking at oxidized nickel electrodes in light water, with NiSO4 added to distilled light (H) water, following the Tesla-Davey path rather than the LENR path which he follows.
The goals are the same:  REPRODUCIBLE EXCESS HEAT.

[ion]

I've got a supply of the following metal and metal alloys. These are thermocouple grade relatively high purity.

Chromel: Nickel 90%, Chromium 10%

Alumel: Nickel 95% Al 2% Mn 2% Si 1%

Constantan: Nickel 45.00% Copper 55%

Nichrome: 80% Nickel 20% Chromium

Electrolytic pure copper

Iron: 99.5+%

And a few assorted others (Karma alloy, Alloy#11, #19, #20, Manganin). Do you feel any of these are useful for a cell of the type you would like to experiment with?

Platinum/Rhodium alloys can be had from thermocouple suppliers as it is used in R,S, and B types. I don't stock those types.

[PhysicsProf]

Hmmm...  Alumel and Chromel sound pretty good to me:

Chromel: Nickel 90%, Chromium 10%

Alumel: Nickel 95% Al 2% Mn 2% Si 1%

Thanks, Ion.  Cost for foils about the size he used?

Meanwhile, last year / early this year I started experiments of the Davey-bell type.  Turns out I used NICKEL crucibles as the bells in one paired-case.  I may try that again (I did not see confirmed xs heat at the time) -- but adding NiSO4 to distilled water, instead of using tap water.  Also, I was using mains 120V input.  I should go to DC or pulsed DC.
One straightforward way to get pulsed-DC from the grid is to place a diode in the line...  I've started experiments along those lines this week; also in response to input via phone call from a friend interested in Davey devices in particular.  

(Again I ask -- are the "LENR" cells and Davey cells really the same au fond? Both have electrodes in water-electrolyte and both claim xs heat .)

As always, we are going to have to measure Pinput and Poutput accurately.  The friend asked that I compare power output running loads from:
A- the 120V- grid;
and
B - half-wave rectified using a diode in series with the grid.

I'm uploading a vid which will show the set-up -- its 57% uploaded as I post this.

Test 1:  Adding a 1N5408 diode in series with a 40-Watt light bulb.  DSO shows half-wave gets through as expected.  Three power meters show 23-24Watts, about half the 43 W measured with full grid input power.  However, the light output, measured via the light box and its light meter, drops by a factor of nearly 4, 1/2-squared.  

I don't understand -- the power falls to half, that makes sense with half the wave getting through the diode, but the light output from the bulb drops to one-fourth (rather than dropping by half).  If I put this bulb in the water and measure temp-rise, will this simple calorimeter show 23 W output through the bulb?  or just 11W?  Where does all the power go, if not into light production?  heat somewhere?

I may try this -- but immersing a bulb in water is a bit hazardous...


Test 2:  Adding a 1N5408 diode in series with a 300-Watt immersion heater.  Here, I measured the temp rise of the water, 22.0C to 27.8C in about 4 minutes.  Delta-temp = 5.8 C.
1.5 liters H20 = 1500 g.
Qout = 4.19 * 1500g * 5.8C = 36450 Joules.

Power in, read by the Kill-A-Watt (KAW) meter, 0.01 kW-h = 10W-hours = 10*3600J = 36000 Joules, very good agreement with the calorimeter (water-temp-rise) measurement.

This meter read and the other KAW meter read about 150-152W during the run, half the rated 300W of the immersion heater.
150 J/s * 4min*60s = 36000J, good agreement.  
So that says half the power in, heats the water at the expected half-power rate.

The Wanf meter did not do well for this, reading 38W for the half-wave driven immersion heater rather than 150 W.  It works just fine with the heater running straight off the grid, full-wave.

I checked the Wanf vs KAW meters for various light bulbs, with the HALF_WAVE input, and found good agreement on watt-readings for 25W (both read 14.5 watts), 40W bulbs (both read 23-24 watts); and not bad agreement for 60W light bulbs (31W on Wanf, 34 on KAW).

For 75, 90, and 100W, the Wanf fell behind, staying at around 36-38 W reading while the KAW meters read around 56% of the rated wattage (note the voltage here is about 122V, so higher wattage than rated is expected).

Can we make sense of this?  do we trust the redundant watt-meters, at least up to 60 W loads?  should we go to voltmeters and ammeters?  the question is -- how do we measure input power accurately?

The water calorimetry makes good sense, but...
Why does the light output drop by nearly 4 when the power is cut by the diode by a factor of just 2?

[PhysicsProf]

  The first vid, with diode in series, is up:  http://youtu.be/ZqpC4XBOe28
The second vid is almost uploaded fully, no diode, http://youtu.be/5RRzvrcJahs

Shows some of the equipment I'm using.  I'm wondering if the light meter has a hard time with flickering -- there is noticeable flickering in the bulb with the diode in place.

PS -- same basic result with a 25W bulb -- all three watt-meters read about 14W input, but the light output is 1/4th (with the diode) -- compared to the light output straight off the mains.

[ion]

Prof:

Why does the light output drop by nearly 4 when the power is cut by the diode by a factor of just 2?

This probably has to do with the pass band of your light meter. As the bulb goes towards infra red,visible luminosity drops of drastically, however the total energy radiated would be 1/2 power (vs) 1/4 luminosity.

"The radiant luminous efficacy (LER) is the ratio of the visible light flux emitted (the luminous flux) to the total power radiated over all wavelengths. The source luminous efficacy (LES) is the ratio of the visible light flux emitted (the luminous flux) to the total power input to the source, such as a lamp."

"At temperatures where the tungsten filament of an ordinary light bulb remains solid (below 3683 kelvins), most of its emission is in the infrared"

What type of light meter are you using?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy

We have also found that the WANF and Kiill A Watt meters do not read correctly with 1/2 wave rectified output load, even with a pure resistive load that is linear.

[PhysicsProf]

Prof:
This probably has to do with the pass band of your light meter. As the bulb goes towards infra red,visible luminosity drops of drastically, however the total energy radiated would be 1/2 power (vs) 1/4 luminosity....

"At temperatures where the tungsten filament of an ordinary light bulb remains solid (below 3683 kelvins), most of its emission is in the infrared"

Yes, I find this is a reasonable explanation.

What type of light meter are you using?

LX1010B = http://www.amazon.com/Light-Meter-LX1010B-Luxmeter-display/dp/B000JWUT6O

We have also found that the WANF and Kiill A Watt meters do not read correctly with 1/2 wave rectified output load, even with a pure resistive load that is linear.

Ah-- how did you determine this?  I have above provided data that checks the KAW meter (kW-h) with temp rise of water (Q in Joules) and for a pure resistive load -- an immersion heater.  Quoting from my post earlier today,

Test 2:  Adding a 1N5408 diode in series with a 300-Watt immersion heater.  Here, I measured the temp rise of the water, 22.0C to 27.8C in about 4 minutes.  Delta-temp = 5.8 C.
1.5 liters H20 = 1500 g.
Qout = 4.19 * 1500g * 5.8C = 36450 Joules.

Power in, read by the Kill-A-Watt (KAW) meter, 0.01 kW-h = 10W-hours = 10*3600J = 36000 Joules, very good agreement with the calorimeter (water-temp-rise) measurement.

This meter read and the other KAW meter read about 150-152W during the run, half the rated 300W of the immersion heater.
150 J/s * 4min*60s = 36000J, good agreement. 
So that says half the power in, heats the water at the expected half-power rate.

Summary:
Pin (Kill-A-Watt meter) = 36,000 J
Pout (Q via temp rise in water) = 36,450 J
  So agreement was within 2% in this measurement.

How do the numbers compare in your measurement with the Kill-A-Watt meter?  I would be interested in how "far off" was the KAW meter, by your measure.

[ion]

Prof:

How do the numbers compare in your measurement with the Kill-A-Watt meter?  I would be interested in how "far off" was the KAW meter, by your measure.   

I was working with Chet on this. We used a one ohm resistor in series with the load and tested full wave and half wave ampere draw by measuring the voltage  across the one ohm shunt with a Fluke true rms meter and multiplying by voltage across the load.

We compared the readings with a KW meter. I'll put all data into a spreadsheet as soon as I recheck the numbers.

[PhysicsProf]

Prof:
I was working with Chet on this. We used a one ohm resistor in series with the load and tested full wave and half wave ampere draw by measuring the voltage  across the one ohm shunt with a Fluke true rms meter and multiplying by voltage across the load.

We compared the readings with a KW meter. I'll put all data into a spreadsheet as soon as I recheck the numbers.

Sounds good -- and then we need to reconcile with the data acquired with the water calorimeter.  That is, I maintain the water calorimeter provides just as good a "control" test as a Fluke meter reading of amps X voltage across the load.

[ion]

May I suggest the Ensupra watt meter.(ebay $20 free shipping) It gives 3 digits to the right of the decimal point for kWHr instead of 2 for the KAW meter, thus pushing 1/2 LSD rounding errors to the 1/1000 of a kWHr vs 1/100.

Precision on amps scale is also 00.000, Watts readings include tenths 0000.0

Not sure of the precision of the Wanf on kWHr setting, can't find a manual for it.

I am currently evaluating the Ensupra against the KAW-P3.

Here is the excel file.......now it seems I can't trust my Fluke true rms meter! The readings across the one ohm do not correlate well at all with the KAW data.?? I did not consider a power factor multiplier as it would have made the Fluke readings even worse.

Note that I also tested 2- 100 W lamps in series vs 1- 100 Watt lamp and diode.

In addition I tested with a large variable power resistor set to 3.00 amps

[Lynx]

Here is a schematic of my test setup.  You can get aluminum wire and a galvanized end cap from a hardware.  Any scrap styrofoam will do.  Tin or aluminum foil adhered to the styrofoam with 3M  super 77 spray adhesive.  Push lengths of aluminum wire through the foil and styrofoam, sand the bottom flush when done.  Use a digital or analog temp probe under the metal cup and in contact with it to sense temperature changes.  Build a blocking oscillator of a Joule thief type or Joule Ringer or Lynx Joule lamp type.  Experiment with reversing the HV from the circuit to the galvanized end cap and the aluminum wires.  Frequency will be around 90 Khz using an LJL circuit.  Adjust voltage in, observe frequency, amp draw, and temperature of solution.  You are looking for rapid rise in temperature that wouldn't be expected with small power input.

[PhysicsProf]

May I suggest the Ensupra watt meter.(ebay $20 free shipping) It gives 3 digits to the right of the decimal point for kWHr instead of 2 for the KAW meter, thus pushing 1/2 LSD rounding errors to the 1/1000 of a kWHr vs 1/100.

Precision on amps scale is also 00.000, Watts readings include tenths 0000.0

Not sure of the precision of the Wanf on kWHr setting, can't find a manual for it.

I am currently evaluating the Ensupra against the KAW-P3.

Here is the excel file.......now it seems I can't trust my Fluke true rms meter! The readings across the one ohm do not correlate well at all with the KAW data.?? I did not consider a power factor multiplier as it would have made the Fluke readings even worse.

Note that I also tested 2- 100 W lamps in series vs 1- 100 Watt lamp and diode.

In addition I tested with a large variable power resistor set to 3.00 amps

I have to agree with your questioning the Fluke results.  Remarkable that the KAW meter gives reasonable results whereas the Fluke does not...  

My immersion heater resistance is 42 ohms, about the same as your 40 ohm resistor.  What I did to check the KAW is to dip the immersion heater into water and run with the diode in series... and the water heating Qheat agreed with the KAW kW-h reading, to within a few percent!


I went ahead and purchased the Ensupra meter you suggested; I like redundancy (checking) in measurements.    
Thanks for posting your results, Ion, and for being willing to question the Fluke.  "If it works, its a fluke!"

Lynx -- just saw your post.  Thanks -- will get some galvanized today...

[ion]

Prof said:

Thanks for posting your results, Ion, and for being willing to question the Fluke.  "If it works, its a fluke!"

This is indeed puzzling, I will have to rethink my measurements and results. Also I will check the Fluke 87 against other true rms meters.

I do trust the KAW meter and your test results, however due to the limited precision and roundoff errors in the 0.01kWHr range of the KAW meter, I'm glad you accurately timed the test and used the Joules/seconds method to determine elapsed kWHr's.

Lynx:

Your experiment looks interesting. Have you any logged results of anomalous heat to share?

[Lynx]

Ion,

No I haven't done these experiments with this test setup per se.  Several months ago I was experimenting with this but I wasn't looking for heat.  I did note gas production on the aluminum, and a discernible vibration.  I assumed this was "Brown" gas but I didn't explore any further.  The reason I am suggesting the foam is for insulation and temperature measurement.  I think different metals should be tried but I will try aluminum and galvanized first.  I got this idea from the "sparkbangbuzz" website where a borax or baking soda aluminum rectifier is discussed.  I was intrigued by the results.
My hunch is that at certain frequencies a pulsed DC of high voltage might be causing heat and an increased voltage due to a fuel cell like recombination of H and O.

[Lynx]

Here is my test setup.  It is hooked up to a LJL blocking oscillator that puts out high voltage spikes at high frequency.  This is not AC, but chopped DC.  It happens that the DC bias is about 4.5 volts through H2O with baking soda and is perfect to reverse bias the 2N3055 power transistor.  I started with solution temperature of 66.5 F and ran for ten minutes.  End temp was 67.4 F.  The current draw off a 12.8 volt battery was 1.4 amps but it dropped to .998 amps after ten minutes.
One direction causes bubbling, reverse the HV leads and there is little bubbling.  A distinct whine can be heard while it is running.  I have read that a coating forms on the aluminum after several hours helping the aluminum to act as a rectifier.  We'll see.

[PhysicsProf]

Here is my test setup.  It is hooked up to a LJL blocking oscillator that puts out high voltage spikes at high frequency.  This is not AC, but chopped DC.  It happens that the DC bias is about 4.5 volts through H2O with baking soda and is perfect to reverse bias the 2N3055 power transistor.  I started with solution temperature of 66.5 F and ran for ten minutes.  End temp was 67.4 F.  The current draw off a 12.8 volt battery was 1.4 amps but it dropped to .998 amps after ten minutes.
One direction causes bubbling, reverse the HV leads and there is little bubbling.  A distinct whine can be heard while it is running.  I have read that a coating forms on the aluminum after several hours helping the aluminum to act as a rectifier.  We'll see.

Good stuff, Lynx

Qheat = 4.19 * mass of water in g * (rise in temperature in deg-C).  

1 liter = 1000g.   (delta deg-F)x5/9 = (delta deg-C)

Then you can compare that with electrical input power, Pinput.
If you decide to post on another forum also , pls let me know so I can follow along there too...

[Lynx]

I will quantify variables to grams/ml, centigrade, time, Pinput, frequency.  I just wanted to get this put together and verify that it conducts and that the solution acts to maintain the circuit oscillation.  It could have pulled too much power and burned out the transistor, or barely pulled enough power to do anything.  As GoldyLox says, "its just right!"

What do you make of the no gas production one way, and fierce production the other way round for the HV circuit?  Same power draw both ways.  Where is the power going when there is no gas production?

Also, am I way off in having this setup be relevant to what you guys are working on?  If I am way off, how should it be modified to be closer to what you want?

I'll post a video of it running sometime this weekend so you can hear the gas production and the whine of the frequency.

[ion]

Maybe have a bench set up and start a new thread for this version.

[Peterae]

Because there is limited access to this board it's probably better to keep it all here. 
It's easy for me to track the group boards that way.

[PhysicsProf]

I will quantify variables to grams/ml, centigrade, time, Pinput, frequency.  I just wanted to get this put together and verify that it conducts and that the solution acts to maintain the circuit oscillation.  It could have pulled too much power and burned out the transistor, or barely pulled enough power to do anything.  As GoldyLox says, "its just right!"

What do you make of the no gas production one way, and fierce production the other way round for the HV circuit?  Same power draw both ways.  Where is the power going when there is no gas production?

Also, am I way off in having this setup be relevant to what you guys are working on?  If I am way off, how should it be modified to be closer to what you want?

I'll post a video of it running sometime this weekend so you can hear the gas production and the whine of the frequency.

Very interesting, Lynx!   Isn't the input to your cell essentially AC, from the Lynx-lamp system?  If so, it "should" produce gas either way.  But if pulsed DC, then the gas should still appear IMO, just H2 and O2 switching electrodes.  

This is VERY relevant!  and I agree with Peter, pls keep it in this thread.

   An electrolytic cell with all the "tricks" we can think of to get it to produce xs heat, on demand.   Look, many scientists are now claiming xs heat in their electrolytic cells -- they just cannot get it REPRODUCIBLY.   And as my friend says, "no neutrons, no gammas, and no activation of the foils".  So while he is beginning to think it is NOT NUCLEAR in origin (this xs heat), we are ALREADY thinking along the not-nuclear lines.

[Lynx]

I don't plan on posting anywhere else.  I don't plan on starting a new thread unless we think my testing is irrelevant.  I am here more to help and throw some practical and not so practical ideas into the mix.

Steve, The output from a blocking oscillator doesn't sine wave positive negative like AC.  In this circuit there is a rush of current at intervals in one direction mostly.  All we are doing is exchanging amps for voltage.  There is a slight AC component to the output but mostly we look at the high voltage spikes.  When those spikes move across between anode and cathode we get a reaction or some form of work done.  The aluminum forms the cathode of the rectifier and can have in addition a lot of capacitance in the circuit.  In my test setup the aluminum has a N type negative resistance effect.  The anode can be just about any other metal.  Copper isn't so great because it discolors the solution.

[ion]

Chopping DC into a transformer will always produce equal amounts of energy above and below the "zero" line on your scope.

This is the nature of induction. You can have extremely high voltage low current spikes of one polarity and this will produce a value of energy below the zero line that will be equal to the high voltage spikes so it is a zero sum, but time displaced.

There is never a net DC component on the secondary of a pulsed transformer operated below saturation. Operated into saturation there are certain arrangements that can perform rectification.

Due to the impedance of the cell, the high voltage pulse will be more effective in producing electrolysis than the higher current, low voltage ringback, especially when the cell has rectification capability and is clamping the pulses in one direction.

Examine the voltage output of a blocking oscillator on a scope driving a non-inductive resistive load, and also logging current on another channel, the power into the resistor over one complete cycle should be the same for positive and ringback pulses.

Guys: No problem keeping these subject matters together, I just thought they might get hopelessly entangled and confused.

[PhysicsProf]

  One of the most important aspects of this research is the CONTROL.   For water calorimetry, I have mostly used immersion heaters (one at a time) as the control, immersed in water and measuring the temperature rise for a measured amount of Watt-hours input.   I recently purchased and have tested a low-wattage im-heater which was designed for both 220V and 120 V.  At 120V in series with a diode, it draws just 62 W, which is nice for comparisons with low-power devices (DUT's). 

  In general with these im-heaters, the heat rise agrees with the Watt-h input to within about 8%, that is, about 92%+ of the power actually heats the water.  Some heat is lost through the walls of the container -- but wrapping this in bubble wrap helps.  Often I get 97% heat transfer to the water.

   OTOH, Chet recently tried a 60 W bulb in water (brave guy!) and found that only about 60% on the input power actually heated the water.  Much of the output power goes into light which does not heat the water, evidently.   I prefer the simple resistive-heater as a control, and Chet agrees with me. 

I'm glad that people are trying different things and look forward to further input from Lynx.