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Author Topic: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube  (Read 83730 times)

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Interesting, I did not know about an accoustic popping sound with delayed coil pairs. ???

'Popping coil' was just the name of the demonstration, I'm not sure if it refers to the popping action or the popping sound.

PeterAE explored it for a while.

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=272.0
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=37.0
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=366.0
   

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Thanks much Grumpy, I was having a hard time finding that thread :)


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Thanks much Grumpy, I was having a hard time finding that thread :)

That thread will lead to a working TPU, if followed.

You need that pulse, sequential pulsed in a circle(edit: or some other method to make it rotate), a static magnetic field perpendicular to the rotating pulse field, and a collector coil in the right orientation (capacitive or inductive).

As an aside, I'm trying to work out a simpler design than the AVEC, which is expensive and time-consuming to build, but modular.  So, I'm looking at this compressed pulse again, coincidentally.
   
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Thanks for the clarification Jerry. :)

One more Q, where do you think the 'asymmetry' come from in the power supply?  In other words, what kind of mechanic/principle do you think might be involved?  And why doesn't it show up often in 'normal' EE works?

The asymmetry comes from the varying potentials on the concentric grid cylinders of the multi gap condensers shown as 25 and 26 in the motor patent.  These require non classical energy to function.  And this surely doesn't come from the illustrated power supply.  I mean, how does waveform 19A turn into 21A?  Something is missing from the picture.

The other image shows Gray's very first motor.  (edit: image courtesy of Mark McKay). A basic, unmodified, 110 V AC unit.  It's powered by the same Black Box the underwater light bulb is plugged into.  Other pictures provided by Mark McKay show this box is powered by a car battery, but also contains a six V motorcycle battery.  Two bucking 12 V pulse trains, one fed through the 6V battery, produces a constant potential difference which vibrates up and down.  (I've also seen this depicted as over/under sign waves, for a shape resonance application).  THIS is the non classical energy.
« Last Edit: 2022-09-30, 22:11:18 by Jerry Volland »
   
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If we intend to replicate Gray's CSET, the first thing we need to consider is his statement - in the patent - that it is a "proposed invention".  It isn't something to replicate, or even reverse engineer.  He laid out the various basic elements, but it's up to US to extend the engineering effort.  WE have to take the summation of what he learned, then figure out how to modify and enhance his idea, to make it do what we, ourselves understand that it can do.

I've been working on this for quite a long time, even before the Internet came out and I found out he had the four patents.  I'm attaching a picture of my latest bench layout.  I do have a completed Tube.  (Not shown).  And I'm willing to share my discoveries, and what I've learned.  But only with a respectful audience.
   
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Jerry
If you start a build topic
I can assure you it will be respectful here ( forum terms of service at a builders bench )
 
Plus you will be moderator!

Respectfully
Chet K


   
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Jerry
If you start a build topic
I can assure you it will be respectful here ( forum terms of service at a builders bench )
 
Plus you will be moderator!

Respectfully
Chet K

Thanks, Chet.  That might be a good option, although I don't know how long I'll be here.  This Ed Gray stuff is my primary area of research.  Other than Centrifugal ReAction Propulsion, which most people think is 'CRAP'.  That would be off topic here, anyway.

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One place Gray missed the boat, so to speak, was his assertion in the Tube patents that the carbon resistor can be either internal or external to the Tube.  With his motor carts, he showed a carbon rheostat plugged into one of the holes in the side of the control cabinet.  (The Demo Cart motors are not complete without these current limiting resistors closing the various circuits).  The LV current contributes to the Overshoot potential, and this current must be regulated, to prevent inefficiency, and even potential damage to the capacitors during the recharging pulses.  This rheostat box he was holding was around four inches on each side, and contained a number of thin carbon discs tensioned against a spring, with greater pressure between the discs resulting in lower resistance.  The resistor in the patent drawing is depicted as a number of discs (one option) so this provides a clue to the CSET's anticipated diameter.

The four point spark gap switch in the circuit diagram will work with an external resistor.  But my tests have shown that it is an essential internal element of the CSET itself.

The first picture shows Gray's four point gap switching element and how the yellow arc transfers to the grid, on each side of the internal arc, when the grid is commutated to a polar mass, such as a coil or tape measure, using a single wire connection.

The second picture shows my test component, without the carbon, or any input connection to the LV rod.  It just has the grid wire coming from the T-tap between the system capacitor and the 'one way energy path' diode, for which Gray used an Ignitron.

Next, I have the carbon slipped over the LV rod, and the grid input.  It still has the faint sparks between the grids and the end of the HV rod.  But there's also a spark between the rods, with no LV connection.  The longer, stronger spark from the T-tap connection at the grid,  over to the piece of charcoal, then through the carbon, and the spark gap, proves that the carbon resistor does increase the spark's voltage.  (The weak sparks between the grids and the HV rod are still there).

This demonstrates that the two grids have different potentials when the LV rod is connected.  (Fourth picture).  Energy has more carbon to travel through to reach the outter grid, from the contact points between the carbon and the LV rod.  So the outter grid has a higher potential than the inner grid.

For pulse forming applications, in a delay line, a higher potential should begin slightly later than a lower one.

Part of the Scientific Method is to report your findings.
   
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That's about all I've got at this point.  I'm still working, and I may, or may not, open source the next part of it.
   

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Enjoy your trek through life but leave no tracks
Next time someone says there is no such thing as zero-point energy see this recognition.
   
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The text above is anything but a proof of FE.

A patent is not a proof, the patent office does not build any machine to verify them.
An investor is not a proof, more than one has been fooled in the past, and all of them regarding free energy.

It is really with this kind of nonsense that we understand that the requirement of proof is totally insufficient in the FE movement, and that we will never get machines that work from people who are satisfied with it and where showing off is enough.


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That's about all I've got at this point.  I'm still working, and I may, or may not, open source the next part of it.

I've been slowly accumulating extra car batteries.  Now that I have four of them, I'll add the third electrode to my Overshoot Switch and test for energy recovery, as claimed in Gray's GB patent.  Hackenberger mentioned in an interview that only five percent of the energy was actually consumed, and that 95% could be recovered.
   
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Dear Marvin Cole & Richard Hackenburger  (E. V. Gray) Researchers,

I would like to say that Mr. Hakasays and Dr. Aadrian Marsh together proposed a serious working model for the operation of all the "Gray" devices. The Electrostatic Generator, the CSET, and the series of pulse Motors. They did this at the Energetic convention held in Spokane, WA around July 11, 2022.

If you have a moment this is the concept:

A section of iron wire or rod is excited with a current large enough to bring it to super saturation. Then this current is quickly interrupted through a high resistance switching mechanism. The iron element has to be isolated from all other components during this transition. Mr. Hakasays maitains that under these conditions the iron core effectively disappears. Dr. Marsh then points out that all of the classical energy stored in the original magnetic field has to go somewhere. Most likely, he conjectures, it converts to a huge electrostatic field that quickly propagates in all directions. The engineering challenge with this technology is harvesting, storing, and utilizing the resultant pulse.

For me this model explains all the technical and historical information I have been able to collect over the last 20 years.  So, moving forward I'm going to be exploring this concept in detail. Right now I've reproduced a Stubblefield coil to see how it responds to a 3 kV pulse from a 40 uF capacitor. bank The primary is copper (#12 AWG) and the secondary is iron garden wire (#18 AWG). Both 250' long. It is interesting but the inductance of the iron winding is 10 H at a resistance of 20 Ohms. I can see why "Gray" had to use such high excitation voltages.

Using this concept it is not to difficult to see how this idea was employed with the CSET and the Electrostatic Generator.

I can now see why the original "popping coils" had four conductors. One winding was the low resistance copper primary that allowed maximum current flow. The iron winding was an isolated secondary but wired to be shorted with the opposing coil connected in series. When the saturation current was reached the circuit was opened, and all Hell broke loose for a few microseconds. Each of the previous devices did the switching in different ways. For the repulsion motor it was the huge electro static pulse that drove the rotor. The other two devices attempted to extract some kind of classical or "Radiant Energy" - which turned out not to be as effective conversion process.

I'm sure there is more to this than this simple proposal. If you see any merit in this concept go for it and make a bee-line to the patent office. But be aware if it does work anywhere near the performance of the "Gray" technology then plan for the Powers that Be to snatch it from you with no compensation.

Thank you for you time and curiosity.

Mark McKay, PE EE
   

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Dear Marvin Cole & Richard Hackenburger  (E. V. Gray) Researchers,

I would like to say that Mr. Hakasays and Dr. Aadrian Marsh together proposed a serious working model for the operation of all the "Gray" devices. The Electrostatic Generator, the CSET, and the series of pulse Motors. They did this at the Energetic convention held in Spokane, WA around July 11, 2022.

If you have a moment this is the concept:

A section of iron wire or rod is excited with a current large enough to bring it to super saturation. Then this current is quickly interrupted through a high resistance switching mechanism. The iron element has to be isolated from all other components during this transition. Mr. Hakasays maitains that under these conditions the iron core effectively disappears. Dr. Marsh then points out that all of the classical energy stored in the original magnetic field has to go somewhere. Most likely, he conjectures, it converts to a huge electrostatic field that quickly propagates in all directions. The engineering challenge with this technology is harvesting, storing, and utilizing the resultant pulse.

For me this model explains all the technical and historical information I have been able to collect over the last 20 years.  So, moving forward I'm going to be exploring this concept in detail. Right now I've reproduced a Stubblefield coil to see how it responds to a 3 kV pulse from a 40 uF capacitor. bank The primary is copper (#12 AWG) and the secondary is iron garden wire (#18 AWG). Both 250' long. It is interesting but the inductance of the iron winding is 10 H at a resistance of 20 Ohms. I can see why "Gray" had to use such high excitation voltages.

Using this concept it is not to difficult to see how this idea was employed with the CSET and the Electrostatic Generator.

I can now see why the original "popping coils" had four conductors. One winding was the low resistance copper primary that allowed maximum current flow. The iron winding was an isolated secondary but wired to be shorted with the opposing coil connected in series. When the saturation current was reached the circuit was opened, and all Hell broke loose for a few microseconds. Each of the previous devices did the switching in different ways. For the repulsion motor it was the huge electro static pulse that drove the rotor. The other two devices attempted to extract some kind of classical or "Radiant Energy" - which turned out not to be as effective conversion process.

I'm sure there is more to this than this simple proposal. If you see any merit in this concept go for it and make a bee-line to the patent office. But be aware if it does work anywhere near the performance of the "Gray" technology then plan for the Powers that Be to snatch it from you with no compensation.

Thank you for you time and curiosity.

Mark McKay, PE EE

Heya Mark, long time no see ;D

I overviewed our 'investigative chat' in this post, hopefully I didn't stray too far from reality:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=18.msg101180#msg101180


Quote
A section of iron wire or rod is excited with a current large enough to bring it to super saturation. Then this current is quickly interrupted through a high resistance switching mechanism. The iron element has to be isolated from all other components during this transition. Mr. Hakasays maintains that under these conditions the iron core effectively disappears.

A bit off, but close enough for rock-and-roll.

My personal bias is towards Dollard-Steinmetz mathematics relating to parametric variation.  That the changing parameters of space is where the asymmetry in every device comes from.   Nowadays I look at everything in terms of that relation, whether it be changing inductance of iron or changing permittivity of a dielectric.'

When an iron wire core is partially saturated by another current, what happens to the field when an impulse is applied to the iron wire coil?   There is a two-pronged effect, because not only is this impulse current generating a magnetic field, but it's also saturating the iron, reducing permeability.
What happens to the contained magnetic flux in the iron if the coil's inductance goes from 100mH to 10uH in a few nanoseconds?  The flux would have to be ejected from the core at equal velocity, no?


Thanks for stopping by Mark, I'm sure there's a bunch of us here with some oddball questions that will certainly help them in their work :P O0


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Heya Mark, long time no see ;D

I overviewed our 'investigative chat' in this post, hopefully I didn't stray too far from reality:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=18.msg101180#msg101180


A bit off, but close enough for rock-and-roll.

My personal bias is towards Dollard-Steinmetz mathematics relating to parametric variation.  That the changing parameters of space is where the asymmetry in every device comes from.   Nowadays I look at everything in terms of that relation, whether it be changing inductance of iron or changing permittivity of a dielectric.'

When an iron wire core is partially saturated by another current, what happens to the field when an impulse is applied to the iron wire coil?   There is a two-pronged effect, because not only is this impulse current generating a magnetic field, but it's also saturating the iron, reducing permeability.
What happens to the contained magnetic flux in the iron if the coil's inductance goes from 100mH to 10uH in a few nanoseconds?  The flux would have to be ejected from the core at equal velocity, no?


Thanks for stopping by Mark, I'm sure there's a bunch of us here with some oddball questions that will certainly help them in their work :P O0

Hakasays and Mark,

I have a question regarding the highlighted above.  In a standard transformer core material, when saturated, the flux leaves the core to the surrounding airspace as you well know, but then returns to the core as the mmf subsides.  What happens in this case of the saturated iron wire?  Is there evidence the that flux re-enters the wire or ......... ?

Regards,
Pm
   
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Dear PM,

The "Gray" technology employed open core designs, akin to the core in a standard ignition coil. I understand that this configuration forces most of the classical magnetic energy into the air space around the core. So, what happens in a classical power transformer does not really apply here directly. From my reading the electrical impact of the open core is to reduce the coupling constant k between the windings. In the ignition coil this allows the secondary to oscillate at a different frequency than the primary. I understand that the optimum k value is around 0.56 to promote 3rd harmonic addition. You have to really butcher a standard power transformer to achieve that low of a value.

At the moment I really doubt that harmonic addition was a goal here. I think the intent was to get more field outside of the core/wire.

The Pulse Motors, the CSET, and the Electrostatic Generator, all use open core designs. I'm sure that the actual physics of the "Radiant Event" will turn out to be more complicated.

Mark McKay, PE
   
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Hi Mark, good to talk with you again.

That's interesting, about using iron for Tesla's Hairpin circuit.  (Tesla used a "stout copper bar", bent into a narrow horseshoe shape).  I've been using a galvanized steel rod in my Switching Tube, for convenience.  I'm curious if I'll get the same preliminary results with a copper rod for the HV anode?

Also, the coil in my cone popping video has an air core - no part of this inductor attracts a magnet.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_wzrAFAz0eQ
   
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Mark,

Very interesting!  Thanks you for your response!

regards,
Pm
   
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Nikola Tesla "The Problem Of Increasing Human Energy"
Publication:
CENTURY MAGAZINE
Date: 1900-06-01

Obtaining Sun  energy from ambient source using iron.  O0
   
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Nikola Tesla "The Problem Of Increasing Human Energy"
Publication:
CENTURY MAGAZINE
Date: 1900-06-01

Obtaining Sun  energy from ambient source using iron.  O0

What I remember from reading that article some time in the past, was the crux of that dissertation, mentioned late in his discussion, was his discovery that Nitrogen can be fixated by applying 100 kHz, at 120 kV, to an electrode.  (The so called 'Flaming Sword').  (Somewhere else he said it was 100 kV).  I do remember Tesla powered his electric car by pushing two iron rods into a box.  That worked day OR night, and, in my carefully considered opinion, involved a LENR effect, rather than Radiant Energy from the Sun.
   
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Dear Hakasays

"So now we're down to 3 coils, 1 on one side and 2 on the other, with at least one winding ferromagnetic.  Triggered by a high-voltage impulse of 3kv in some unknown configuration."

The coil configuration of the EMA4 (The machine tested by Crosby Research) was composed of two electromagnets opposing an identical set of coils. Each pair had it own chopper (later a transistor) power supply. These made up the "Major" and "Minor" coils. The "Minor coil can be seen in the GD photos. It appears to be a simple two wire electromagnet.
The "Major" electromagnet has three wires coming from it, but is actually two windings.  One of the windings is connected internally  to the iron laminated core so that the opposing cores on the stator can arc to the rotor cores and thus the arc can be struck and then stretched. If the rotor speed is above 500 rpm the arc is quenched and the "Radiant Event" can take place.

The Kansas City era motors did away with the "Minor" coils.  I suspect the purpose of the "Minor" electromagnet was to provide some current regulation and to shift the magnetic field off center - for some unknown reason. I suspect that the larger electromagnet coils in the post 1979 motors were large enough that enough inductance was already present. The magnetic offset was achieved (about 10 degrees) by machining a slight angles in the opposing cores. These changes reduced the cost of construction greatly. I wonder if these modifications worked as well as the original?

The original popping coils (I believe I have photos of three of them) don't have cores. Some do have spacers between the opposing coils that are some kind of plastic, most likely Delrin. If you have ever worked with popping coil mass drivers you want to get the opposing coils as close to each other as possible if you are dealing with a purely magnetic effect. I wonder if the proposed "Radiant Event" is some kind of electrostatic process then maybe these added dielectric discs amplify the effect like an iron core amplifies the magnetic effect. This is pure speculation but I have no other ideas as to why these spacers were provided.

I say it would be safe to step over the "Minor" coil after we know just how much inductance is needed in the main coil.

Mark McKay PE

   

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Hakasays and Mark,

I have a question regarding the highlighted above.  In a standard transformer core material, when saturated, the flux leaves the core to the surrounding airspace as you well know, but then returns to the core as the mmf subsides.  What happens in this case of the saturated iron wire?  Is there evidence the that flux re-enters the wire or ......... ?

Regards,
Pm

I think in a normal transformer, the core is saturated directly proportional to the current flow.  Energy is stored in the parametric change and released when released.  Linear and symmetric (except for the saturation and hysteresis losses).

I'm not sure exactly what happens yet, mechanically, or what the exact ideal arrangement might be.   The overarching principle though is that we're changing the parameters of space for a signal in-transit.  Analogous to having a water balloon and squeezing it while water is shooting out the nozzle.  Or changing the mass of an object as it is being lifted/dropped.  Or changing the spring constant of a spring as it is being compressed+expanded.
There's probably more to it, but I like this approach because it's conceptually straightforward and maintains consistency with all standard electrical engineering formulas.

The Pulse Motors, the CSET, and the Electrostatic Generator, all use open core designs. I'm sure that the actual physics of the "Radiant Event" will turn out to be more complicated.

Mark McKay, PE

I suppose it HAS to be fairly complicated, otherwise everyone would already have it. :P

BTW Mark I've been wondering, do you remember who/where you came across the 'iron wire' component in your EV Gray research?


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BTW Mark I've been wondering, do you remember who/where you came across the 'iron wire' component in your EV Gray research?

Hakasays,

That piece of information came from a man named Kenneth Hawkins around 2004. I ran into him on the phone after I located Gary's lawyer Joe Gordon. Mr. Hawkins sent me the first promotion video of Gray's presentation in 1986 from Counsel, ID. No one had ever seen that information before. Since then two more videos have shown up that were made in Texas.

As I understand it Mr. Hawkins and Norm Wooten worked together on Free Energy projects however they had a big falling out over ownership of one of their devices and have not gotten back together since. I believe that it was Mr. Hawkins that made the trip to Dodge City to recover the Black & White Motors, the Start Motor, fragments of a large popping coil (the Space shuttle model), a power supply. and the #3 motor case (which I display in my living room as a plant holder). It was Joe Gordon that told them where to go and who to talk to. I would guess it was in these field discussions that he picked up on the iron wire idea. Mr. Hawkins also said that "Gray" used mica capacitors. however its hard to find large capacity mica capacitors. Mr. Wooten went on to make the 2000 Gray Motor presentation in Miami.

Since then I have attempted to contact Mr. Hawkins with no luck. I have developed a lot of specific questions about his adventure. All this equipment was sold to Al Francouer for $5K.

So, I sat on this information for years until I could find out where it might fit in.

Mark McKay, PE
   

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