Cop 400 claim for hydrogen production comes to market

[Chet]

thx to LancaIV at OU.com for link
here
http://www.overunity.com/14401/hydrogen-production-breakthrough/msg393946/#msg393946
--------------------------
info here

http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/03/solar-hydrogen-trends-claims-breakthrough-hydrogen-production-system-cop-400-claimed/

Principles involved are commenting on technology and actively seeking investigation by qualified 3rd parties and media

A Snip from the link [by a principle of the company]

"" SolarHydrogenTrends • 4 days ago

Dear Colleagues,

I am closely following all the discussions on multiple forums.

I really like your judgments and their proximity to understanding
the processes that occur in reality in the hydrogen reactor "Symphony
7A".

Unfortunately, according to the existing ethics in the
scientific community, the authors are not encouraged to discuss about any research
results with the media before they are published in scientific journals.

However, in order for you to understand what a great discovery
GOD gave to us all please try to find answers
in the following questions:

1. If the working substance in the reactor is water, how
come the output is almost only hydrogen ?

2. After splitting water where do molecules of oxygen
disappear?

3. What role in stunning efficiency of "Symphony
7A" plays a collective excitation of nucleons in the nuclei of atoms of oxygen?

4. Is it possible at a rate of 0.5 kW energy hour and at
operating temperature 60 degrees centigrade, to have a nuclear fission and fusion?

5 . To produce 1kg of hydrogen it is necessary to split 9
liters of water, then how or in what way in this hydrogen reactor
"Symphony 7A", it takes only 1 liter?


Sincerely,

Konstantin Balakiryan

PhD, Professor""

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

thx
Chet

[Centraflow]

The oxygen can be converted into oxides (SMD) and generate energy which reduces the input power, that is one answer, but how to change that then into hydrogen which does not come from the water I will have to look into that. This answers 1 and 2.

I would presume that the "oxide" has a high Hydrogen content which has come from the consumable electrode, so we have to look at what oxides there are which have a high hydrogen content!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! any ideas anyone.

3 could be a high alternating magnetic field moving the bond angle and creating small chain link water clusters which act like capacitors in series.

4 you tell me, can it be done at 60c "Steven you come in here".

5 If we knew that we would not be here asking questions, a bit silly really.

There is a patent application and peer review you can foreget about if this is not demonstrated, the patent neither will be fruitful, the national security clause will be used for sure.

Are they following here? under another name? Peter what do you know?

regards

Mike

[Centraflow]

P S. I'm waiting for an activation code on that site, seems they don't like me, or is it because it is sunday!!!

Mike

[Centraflow]

My activation code was in spam, so now accepted.

I have replied to the forum here

http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/135-Solar-Hydrogen-Trends-Inc-Claims-Breakthrough-Hydrogen-Production-System-COP-400/?postID=343#post348

we will see what response I get

regards

Mike

[PhysicsProf]

Thanks for the heads-up comments on this claim, Centraflow and Chet.  Very interesting   

"There is a patent application and peer review you can foreget about if this is not demonstrated, the patent neither will be fruitful, the national security clause will be used for sure."

I share the concern, but perhaps the "word will get out" enough ...

I'll be studying the thread on this one.  Will get back again later.
Thanks again.

[Paul-R]

"There is a patent application..."

Filed in what country?

I checked the USPTO and EPO for solar hydrogen trends and the two principles and found nothing.

[Chet]

Paul R
That "patent application" quote was from Centraflow post #1

thx
Chet

[Paul-R]

Paul R
That "patent application" quote was from Centraflow post #1

They claim to have an application. Where is it filed?

[Centraflow]

No Idea, it came from the LENR forum, see my link above

Regards

Mike

[Farrah Day]

Well this is all a little odd to say the least, and I for one am really not sure what to make of it!

On the one hand we seem to have them (Solar Hydrogen Trends Inc) claiming some super, super-dooper efficient dissociation of the water molecule...

Konstantine Balakiryan, Founder, CEO/Chief Scientist and driving force behind the seven models of the hydrogen reactor, added "With our technology, a hydrogen plant with 150 million cubic feet per day production would provide enough hydrogen to power 200 thousand homes. With only 500 watts/hour of input energy we produce 2,797 cubic feet or 79,098 liters per hour of hydrogen or 221 kWh energy equivalent – at the cost of only $1.80USD. Our hydrogen reactor technology could very well be the biggest breakthrough of our time."

...but then we seem to be having Konstantin Balakiryan - the chief scientist - posting questions about their very own process!?  

Dear Colleagues,

I am closely following all the discussions on multiple forums.
I really like your judgments and their proximity to understanding the processes that occur in reality in the hydrogen reactor "Symphony 7A".

Unfortunately, according to the existing ethics in the scientific community, the authors are not encouraged to discuss about any research results with the media before they are published in scientific journals.

However, in order for you to understand what a great discovery GOD gave to us all please try to find answers in the following questions:

1. If the working substance in the reactor is water, how come the output is almost only hydrogen ?

2. After splitting water where do molecules of oxygen disappear?

3. What role in stunning efficiency of "Symphony 7A" plays a collective excitation of nucleons in the nuclei of atoms of oxygen?

4. Is it possible at a rate of 0.5 kW energy hour and at operating temperature 60 degrees centigrade, to have a nuclear fission and fusion?

5 . To produce 1kg of hydrogen it is necessary to split 9 liters of water, then how or in what way in this hydrogen reactor "Symphony 7A", it takes only 1 liter?

Sincerely,
Konstantin Balakiryan

PhD, Professor

They also state that there are altogether a set of 16 different processes, both physical and chemical acting simultaneously on the hydrogen bonds. That's an awful lot of processing going on simultaneously! And unless we have some idea of what those processes are, then we could be theorising on what's actually happening forever and a day.

Why is the chief scientist posting on forums, asking questions about his own process?  Or is this just his way of dropping a few teasing snippets to whet our appetites...or dare I say, attract funding? Nevertheless, how does he think that anyone can even attempt to answer those questions in order to understand what is happening without knowing what the 16 physical and chemical processes are?

Unless I'm missing something major here, then this altogether smells a little fishy and clearly something is seriously not right!

One thing for sure though, given that 1 litre of water weighs 1 kilogram, then they cannot be getting 1 kg of hydrogen from 1 litre of water. And it does not matter how many times they do the maths, you can't get more hydrogen out of water than there is in it in the first place. (and please no one bring up that bloke who supposedly fed 5000 people with 5 fishes and a couple of loaves of bread!).

They're also claiming that 93% hydrogen is being produced, so yes, a good question is, "what can be happening to the oxygen?". Well obviously if it's not being produced as a gas then it must be reacting at some stage during one of the 16 processes to form an oxide, (but this won't produce any excess electrons), it will simply form a new compound.  But perhaps the very action of forming this new compound is one of the 16 processes that acts as a catalyst to dissociate the water molecule. Who knows, we really have nothing to go on yet, so at best can only speculate.

Rather oddly there is next to nothing on their website: http://www.solarhydrogentrends.com/

I'm also wondering where the 'Solar' part of their name comes in? That said the whole name is a little odd.

It will be interesting to see where this goes, but I've already got a 'symphony' of alarms bells going off.

And here's something really weird, the good professor seemingly spells his own name wrong. On their website it is spelled 'Konstantine', but he spells it 'Konstantin' in his posted reply?

[giantkiller]

It will be interesting to see where this goes, but I've already got a 'symphony' of alarms bells going off.

I hear banjos too...

[Chet]

So we have a federally certified EPA lab hanging there reputation on this test .
all the principles are learned men and highly educated in their fields.

They are well aware of the "heresy" of the claim and as a result to prove their point even more make up a list of  "powerpoint" questions
that is sometimes reffered to as "in your face marketing".

Plus responding to folks on open and public forums!

I would not pile too many stones yet.............

thx
Chet
PS
there is the possibility of a contribution from the members of this company at this forum
please keep that in mind when making comments here

[Farrah Day]

I would not pile too many stones yet...............

You've never piled any stones in your life, Chet...    yet there is a whole graveyard of bogus and defunct claims!

Best not to get too excited yet, eh?

At 250lbs it's quite a heavy device for its size, and they do state that it contains internal cartridges that have to be replaced every 2 - 3 weeks. So clearly there are consumables, which probably explains where the oxygen is going.

Aluminium comes to mind as a possible consumable, as if you can somehow remove the protective oxide coating then the aluminium will react with water to form an oxide and release hydrogen. So if aluminium is used, then I would speculate that they are using some innovative process that destroys the protective oxide layer and exposes the very reactive underlying aluminium.

Whatever they are doing, I very much doubt that it is any kind of standard electrolysis.

[Chet]

Farrah
This info initially came OUR way via Mark Dansie ,he goes way out of his way to Check certain boxes before he releases any " News".

A level of experience and Scrutiny I have grown to appreciate.

thank you for your interest.

Re Consumables
Quote
""With only 500 watts/hour of input energy we produce 2,797 cubic feet or 79,098 liters per hour of hydrogen or 221 kWh energy equivalent – at the cost of only $1.80USD. ""
---------------------------------------------------
1.80 USD for that amount of product makes the Consumables Moot in the cost analogy



Chet

[Farrah Day]

Well you know me Chet, 'Scepticism' is my middle name. 

That said I do always like to keep an open mind... until I find holes big enough to poke a stick through.

[Farrah Day]

So we have a federally certified EPA lab hanging there reputation on this test .
all the principles are learned men and highly educated in their fields.

I'd missed that pdf.

However it seems that all that AirKinetics do is analyse exhaust emissions. They do not hang there reputation on anything, they simply report their findings. And they measured a DC voltage of between 4 and 7 volts... but with a current of around 100 amps!!! Which now sounds more like some form of electrolysis.  

I sure wasn't expecting a current reading of 100 amps given that SHT claim just 500 watts per hour to produce nearly 80,000 litres of H2! That said, AirKinetics don't specify run times as it seems the object of the exercise is simply to determine what is exhausting and in what percentages.

But 5 volts x 100 amps is your 500 Watts right off, so I'm a little puzzled by that.  

No, actually AirKinetics do specify a run time: it's a minute. The gas is measured in cubic feet per minute, and if the 100 amps at 4 -7 volts is correct how do SHT come to the conclusion that they are producing nearly 3000 cubic feet of gas in an hour for just 500 Watts? They seem to have multiplied the ACFM by 60, but not bothered doing that with the current... so whatever's that all about?  

Anyone else find the 'SHT' abbreviation a little too convenient?  

[Chet]

Farrah
yes a very unorthodox method with an extremely high quality yield.

having worked ALL my adult life freelancing for test labs I can assure you that the
lab is well aware of the claims and Claimants ,and yes reputations are quite important in this venue.

to think otherwise would be quite naive.

respectfully
Chet

[Farrah Day]

Farrah
yes a very unorthodox method with an extremely high quality yield.

having worked ALL my adult life freelancing for test labs I can assure you that the
lab is well aware of the claims and Claimants ,and yes reputations are quite important in this venue.

to think otherwise would be quite naive.

respectfully
Chet

Not really sure what you're getting at with this post Chet. Like I said, all that AirKinetics do is report their findings. Their reputation lies simply in the accuracy of their reports. They have done their part and the results are there in black and white. What the client does with the information thereafter or what the client claims is quite irrelevant.  

[Chet]

Farrah
A test labs most important issues... Exposure to Liability and reputation.

While your "opinion" may seem to have merit at first glance,The bad press and allegations that can follow something like this would Never make the Fee worthwhile ,unless there was the utmost confidence that a fraud was not being perpetrated and complete confidence in the qualifications of the "customer".this Job would never make it to any Lab I know of.[

Their insurance companies require STRICT protocol to maintain coverage.
**The US has No Tort Reform* Liability Stifles industry at every turn,not so in th UK

How many claims from  highly Educated scientists ,real scientists actually working in their fields   with test reports from certified labs have you read in the last few years ?

these fellows are on the right road they are making all the right moves and seeking active investigation from qualified individuals ,as well as making themselves available to their peers for  public scrutiny.


more to come.........
thx
Chet

[Farrah Day]

Well, as usual Chet I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.

AirKinetics have simply analysed what's coming out the spout, that's what they do. I see no exposure to liability or reputation. I think you're reading to much into this.

[Chet]

Farrah
I attribute your position to the difference in the TORT laws in our countries.
In your country Tort reform has made things somewhat "Sane",In the US Liability stifles and chokes every aspect of industry, as a result the insurance [requiered] companies place Strict requirements on their exposure to Liability.

 in this case, in what will be part of a published peer reviewed paper ,the additional "Legal" scrutiny adds merit to the claim.

although as you pointed out there seem to be "holes" in the logic and some "unfamiliar" test protocol [input measurement]
Hopefully further information will help explain these and other questions.

Thank you for looking and commenting
Chet

[Farrah Day]

Time to email them I think.

We really need to clear this 500 watts per hour that SHT claim vs the 50 ACFM 5 volt, 100 amp current shown on the air Kinetics report.

[Chet]

Ok
I had a very nice chat with the project manager for the Lab.
The test utilised the Customers gauges on the DUT for data on Input power.[I did not ask for calibration info ]

I have other contacts but need to speak with the "fellows" first.

So to summarize
its all in the report .
The Device under test [DUT] applies a  500 watt load and yields [appx] 50 cu feet per minute of hydrogen at 93% purity

Thx
Chet
Ps
Yes there are some questions ,quite sure we will get answers.
Edit
I was asked to clarify a few things in this post .
I did!! 

[Centraflow]

Thanks for looking at this Chet.

I,m a little busy at this time of the year, but looking in as much as I can.

By the way electrons can be used for power before becoming part of a chemical transformation, as in hydrogen cell and finally creating water, these reactions are very complex when metals are involved as has been explained before.

Electrons are not created or destroyed, just used twice so to say in their path to final destination, this is a very important point to think about

regards

Mike

[Chet]

Ok
I had a nice Chat with the Co-owner of the company,He has taken a VERY cautious and Savvy approach
This has been in the works for quite some time,more communications are planned.

We shall see?



thx
Chet