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Author Topic: Marinov Generator  (Read 21983 times)
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...If we place the conductor on the other side of the PM,we see the fields flow is in the opposite direction. So on one side of the PM the conductor would be attracted to the magnet,and on the other side it would be repelled. And as i have stated before,the magnetic field is at it's most concentrated at the center of the magnet,not at each pole.
...

The wire moves through the field gradient and "falls" to the position of minimum magnetic potential energy. No surprise.


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The wire moves through the field gradient and "falls" to the position of minimum magnetic potential energy. No surprise.

F6,

Would you show more clearly by graphic means what you are saying?  It appears the wire does more than "fall" as it seems to be "pinned" to it's position!

Regards,
Pm
   
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Ok,this is indeed odd,and maybe some one here can explain it,but i cant.

I have found it depends on which way your PM is facing as to whether the current carrying conductor is attracted to the center of the magnet,or repelled away from it.

So far i have found the following

1-the current carrying conductor is repelled by both the north and south fields of the PM,even though the current flow direction remains the same.

2-if the current carrying conductor is attracted to the center of the magnet,you can either invert the current flow through the inductor,or spin the magnet 180* to make the conductor become repelled by the center of the magnet.

3-The conductor is always repelled by the center on one side of the PM,but attracted to the center on the other side of the PM.

I think this effect is caused by the field within the center of the PM,and not the outer field of the PM.

If we look at the picture below,where we see the field of the PM,and the field of a current carrying conductor,and we take note of the PMs field inside the magnet,and disregard the field around the PM,we see that if the conductor is on one side of the PM,the magnetic field flow is the same direction. If we place the conductor on the other side of the PM,we see the fields flow is in the opposite direction. So on one side of the PM the conductor would be attracted to the magnet,and on the other side it would be repelled. And as i have stated before,the magnetic field is at it's most concentrated at the center of the magnet,not at each pole.

This would explain what we see in my video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5SKYiSxSBk

Im calling this the Partzman effect  O0


Brad

Brad,

Thanks for doing your experiment and creating the video! 

Your video confirms IMO that perhaps we do not have the magnetic field properly defined around the cylindrical PM or solenoid coil.

Regards,

Pm
   
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Below is a photo that best explains my answer to what is happening with this simple PM/wire experiment.  This was taken from this website-

http://www.ferrocell.us/images/2-anothermoebius3.jpg

and here is the caption for the pix-

"Cylinder magnet on top of 50mm rear lit cell using a
small incandescent lamp. Note indent right, center
and bulge left center."


Most of our current depictions of flux lines in a bar or cylindrical PMs magnetized on their long dimension show continuous lines from N to S.  This is all wrong IMO as these simple experiments seem to indicate as is also seen in the backlit ferrocell views.  IOW, the N flux lines return to the center of the PM as do the S flux lines.  Also IMO, these lines are anything but straight as is always depicted.

If this is the case, then the mystery is solved as to why the wire attracts to the positions it does by considering the attraction and repulsion of the respective flux fields.

Regards,
Pm     
   

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The wire moves through the field gradient and "falls" to the position of minimum magnetic potential energy. No surprise.

Not sure if you watched my video i posted,but your answer is incorrect.
The wire can either be attracted to,or repelled from the center of the magnet.
There is no !falling! .


Brad


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Buy me some coffee
Below is a photo that best explains my answer to what is happening with this simple PM/wire experiment.  This was taken from this website-

http://www.ferrocell.us/images/2-anothermoebius3.jpg

and here is the caption for the pix-

"Cylinder magnet on top of 50mm rear lit cell using a
small incandescent lamp. Note indent right, center
and bulge left center."


Most of our current depictions of flux lines in a bar or cylindrical PMs magnetized on their long dimension show continuous lines from N to S.  This is all wrong IMO as these simple experiments seem to indicate as is also seen in the backlit ferrocell views.  IOW, the N flux lines return to the center of the PM as do the S flux lines.  Also IMO, these lines are anything but straight as is always depicted.

If this is the case, then the mystery is solved as to why the wire attracts to the positions it does by considering the attraction and repulsion of the respective flux fields.

Regards,
Pm     

Well whats the chances of that.
I see a figure 8 magnetic field  ;)

Way back in 2015 i was grilled by the ex-spurts when i stated that the magnetic field around a PM is in the form of a figure 8. This is when i spent many months mapping field lines around PM.

Quote from thread at OU.com -->It seems all well and good for the(so called) !know all! scientist to place lines around a magnet to represent the magnetic field,but when i draw my lines that separate the TWO different fields around a magnet ,and show where each individual field is strongest,every one of the guru's say thats crap. Well,to bad,my mapping of the two different fields dose form a figure 8 pattern relative to the magnetic field strength of each individual field-north and south.

The whole thread here-->

https://overunity.com/14974/magnet-myths-and-misconceptions/870/

Now,after all these years of being told i was wrong,look what turns up  C.C
Aint that a hoot  ;D

Partzman
I agree with you 100%
In fact,i agreed with you long before you posted this lol.

This is a moment to remember for sure.
Everything changes now  O0


Brad


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Brad,

Yes, if what we see and speculate regarding the field lines is correct, it begs the question of can be benefit in any way from this knowledge in the various PM motor and generator designs?

BTW, Ken Wheeler has been preaching along these lines for years for those who may not know.

Regards,
Pm
   

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Why does this "8" not show up with the iron fillings test?

Itsu
   
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Why does this "8" not show up with the iron fillings test?

Itsu

Itsu,

I'm not qualified to answer that however, look closely at the white space that is between the iron filings attached to the PM and the distant iron filings!  What do you see?  The iron filings also show flux lines that are discontinuous which we are told do not exist under normal conditions like this.  Also, how does one justify the wire movement and position based on the iron filing flux indication?

Regards,
Pm
   

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Not sure if you watched my video i posted,but your answer is incorrect.
The wire can either be attracted to,or repelled from the center of the magnet.
There is no !falling! .


Brad


Well if we visualize the magnetic field of the magnet(outside the magnet from pole to pole) and then the field of the energized wire(the circumference of the wire field in the space between the wire and the magnet), I can see the magnet field in opposition to the wire field in one polarity of input and attraction in opposite polarity input.  The sides of the cylinder magnet do emanate pole fields outward from each half on either side of length center. 

The floating and attraction effect should be easy to visualize as the poles in the circular field around the wire are either in attraction or repulsion to the poles of the magnet, like just bringing in another magnet parallel to the first magnet where its attracted, then flipping the magnet for repulsion

So lets say you have the wire on this side of center and polarity to do the flip around effect. Flux is in a general outward direction(some at angles toward the other pole closer to the middle of the magnet),so when we apply the current when the wire is off center, the wire is going to move in the same direction as if it were started off in front of the pole, around the say N field that is emanating out of the N end of the magnet.  Now we move the wire to the other side of center and now it reacts to S pole field that emanates around that half of the magnet.

If you make a window motor with just 1 wire as you show, just on 1 side of the rotor around the magnet, it will be a similar effect I believe. But still a good effect to see the wire having the ability to do what it is doing without the restrictions of just going around in a predetermined circle.



Mags
   
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F6,

Would you show more clearly by graphic means what you are saying?  It appears the wire does more than "fall" as it seems to be "pinned" to it's position!

Regards,
Pm

Hi PM,

It is "pinned" when it is on the right side (the one where its potential energy is minimal), otherwise it is sent back to the other side.
You can see it in Brad's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5SKYiSxSBk&feature=youtu.be&t=121


...
The wire can either be attracted to,or repelled from the center of the magnet.
There is no !falling! .
...

Hi Brad,

"falling" is just used by analogy with gravitational potential. The same reason that will make a balloon roll from the top to the bottom of the hill, makes the wire move from one side of the magnet to the other: the moving object loses the potential energy acquired by its starting position.


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"Chance favours only the prepared mind."  Louis Pasteur
   
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...
http://www.ferrocell.us/images/2-anothermoebius3.jpg
...     

If it's not a simple mechanical effect on the surface, I don't believe for a second that this magnet would be a simple cylindrical magnet axially magnetized. It would be more like the attached file.
And if it's a mechanical effect, either due to the magnet weight or to magnetic forces on the magnet because of ferromagnetic objects in the surrounding, no conclusion can be drawn about the magnetism.
« Last Edit: 2019-06-11, 10:22:43 by F6FLT »


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Itsu,

I'm not qualified to answer that however, look closely at the white space that is between the iron filings attached to the PM and the distant iron filings!  What do you see?  The iron filings also show flux lines that are discontinuous which we are told do not exist under normal conditions like this.  Also, how does one justify the wire movement and position based on the iron filing flux indication?

Regards,
Pm

Do not confuse the map with the territory. Iron filings are not the field lines, they line up along the field lines. But there are grain irregularities and also friction forces on the surface that make there are never only continuous lines while the field lines are.
The field lines are not even a physical reality, at least at the scale of iron filings. They are just mathematical lines of magnetic equipotentials.
If the field lines were not continuous, the magnetic force would not be conservative, and SMOTs would have been successful for years.




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Hi PM,

It is "pinned" when it is on the right side (the one where its potential energy is minimal), otherwise it is sent back to the other side.
You can see it in Brad's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5SKYiSxSBk&feature=youtu.be&t=121


Hi Brad,

"falling" is just used by analogy with gravitational potential. The same reason that will make a balloon roll from the top to the bottom of the hill, makes the wire move from one side of the magnet to the other: the moving object loses the potential energy acquired by its starting position.

So here is what we have.
Pic 1--If we see the current flowing into the page through the conductor,the conductor is pushed up away from the magnet. It is not attracted to either the north or south field,but repelled by both.
Following the green lines,the conductor can travel either way around the magnet,and then be pulled up toward the center of the magnet.

Pic two--
By flipping the magnet over,we see the conductor pulled straight down to the magnets center.
We also get the same effect by swapping the polarity of the current flow,and leaving the magnet as it is.

So how is it that the conductor is repelled by both the north field and the south field ?.

The last 2 pictures make more sense.


Brad


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Buy me some coffee
Why does this "8" not show up with the iron fillings test?

Itsu

Iron filings are no good at showing field lines as such,as each filing particle becomes a temporary magnet it self,and so just stick together how ever they like.


Brad


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Brad, Itsu, PM, F6, Guys,
You are comparing apples to oranges.  Field lines are lines of force, and here we have two different lines of force.  First off the B field lines show the direction of a force that would apply to an isolated magnetic N pole.  Such an isolated N pole would be repelled from the N pole of the magnet and would travel along one of those field lines to reach the S pole of the magnet.  We don't have isolated poles but you can do an experiment that will show this effect.  Make a long thin magnet by magnetizing a length of rigid piano wire, then suspend this from a ceiling so that it hangs down as a pendulum with the S pole at the suspension point, a pendulum that can follow the surface of a cone.  Then place a small magnet directly below it to see the N pole of the pendulum repelled from the N pole of the magnet.  You will see that N pole follow a curved trajectory as depicted in the rather poor image attached.   That is showing you the B field line.  It is a line of force and if you integrate that line from The N pole of the magnet to the S pole you get the energy (force times distance) or work done.  So from that starting position there is that potential energy available.  It is not just some vague potential, it is potential energy.  If you started somewhere else on the force line you would get less potential energy.  If you wanted to you could draw other "field" lines like lines of equipotential energy.  Iron filings are magnetized by the B field to become tiny magnets and they do link up to form strings that follow those B lines.

Brad's figure of eight field lines are a different field.  They are not the force on an isolated N pole, they are the force on a line element of current.  Brad is correct to see them as field lines, and to call them magnetic field lines as clearly they come from magnetism.  They need a different terminology.  We already have magnetic A fields, magnetic B fields and magnetic H fields.  Perhaps we should call them F8 fields because of that figure of 8.  Or maybe we could use FLH fields as they obey Fleming's LH rule.  Or why not just magnetic F field?  Since by Fleming's LH rule the force is always at right angles to the B field, you can easily plot the F field lines as shown in the second image.   And being lines of force there is potential energy available so you could also plot lines of equipotential energy of you wanted to.
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So here is what we have.
Pic 1--If we see the current flowing into the page through the conductor,the conductor is pushed up away from the magnet. It is not attracted to either the north or south field,but repelled by both.
Following the green lines,the conductor can travel either way around the magnet,and then be pulled up toward the center of the magnet.

Pic two--
By flipping the magnet over,we see the conductor pulled straight down to the magnets center.
We also get the same effect by swapping the polarity of the current flow,and leaving the magnet as it is.

So how is it that the conductor is repelled by both the north field and the south field ?.

The last 2 pictures make more sense.


Brad

Case 1:
You can see that the field lines generated by the wires near the magnet are about the same as if the wire were a small N'-S' magnet parallel to the real magnet and oriented in the same direction. It is therefore repelled.

Case 2
The equivalent small magnet that the wire simulates has now is S'-N' poles reversed, it is attracted.


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Woops! I got the direction wrong (used Brad's image).  Each line crossing obeys Fleming's LH rule so here is the revised image.  You can see it is one half of Brad's figure of eight field.
Smudge
   

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Woops! I got the direction wrong (used Brad's image).  Each line crossing obeys Fleming's LH rule so here is the revised image.  You can see it is one half of Brad's figure of eight field.
Smudge

 ;)    Yup.  When you have a vision of the fields, its pretty simple. ^-^

Mags
   

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One thing about this that has my mind going is when doing the loop around is the outward push on the wire while it is being drawn around from one side of the pole the other. Not that I dont understand it, just how can we maybe use this and could it hold any possible advantages. When we have like I described earlier, a window motor type rotor to hold the wire in the circular path, these other inward and outward forces are not apparent as when the wire is loose.  Like I said before, it is still interesting to see what we wouldnt have before this. O0

Mags
   

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Apply ac to the wire.  Remember those light bulbs back in the 70s and 80s with a filament in the shape of a candle flame outline with a little magnet mounted between the 2 posts that the filament is connected to?  ^-^

Mags
« Last Edit: 2019-06-13, 00:10:52 by Magluvin »
   

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Brad, Itsu, PM, F6, Guys,
You are comparing apples to oranges.  Field lines are lines of force, and here we have two different lines of force.  First off the B field lines show the direction of a force that would apply to an isolated magnetic N pole.  Such an isolated N pole would be repelled from the N pole of the magnet and would travel along one of those field lines to reach the S pole of the magnet.  We don't have isolated poles but you can do an experiment that will show this effect.  Make a long thin magnet by magnetizing a length of rigid piano wire, then suspend this from a ceiling so that it hangs down as a pendulum with the S pole at the suspension point, a pendulum that can follow the surface of a cone.  Then place a small magnet directly below it to see the N pole of the pendulum repelled from the N pole of the magnet.  You will see that N pole follow a curved trajectory as depicted in the rather poor image attached.   That is showing you the B field line.  It is a line of force and if you integrate that line from The N pole of the magnet to the S pole you get the energy (force times distance) or work done.  So from that starting position there is that potential energy available.  It is not just some vague potential, it is potential energy.  If you started somewhere else on the force line you would get less potential energy.  If you wanted to you could draw other "field" lines like lines of equipotential energy.  Iron filings are magnetized by the B field to become tiny magnets and they do link up to form strings that follow those B lines.

Brad's figure of eight field lines are a different field.  They are not the force on an isolated N pole, they are the force on a line element of current.  Brad is correct to see them as field lines, and to call them magnetic field lines as clearly they come from magnetism.  They need a different terminology.  We already have magnetic A fields, magnetic B fields and magnetic H fields.  Perhaps we should call them F8 fields because of that figure of 8.  Or maybe we could use FLH fields as they obey Fleming's LH rule.  Or why not just magnetic F field?  Since by Fleming's LH rule the force is always at right angles to the B field, you can easily plot the F field lines as shown in the second image.   And being lines of force there is potential energy available so you could also plot lines of equipotential energy of you wanted to.
Smudge

Perhaps that helps explain those !other! experiments ?.


Brad


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Perhaps that helps explain those !other! experiments ?.
Brad
With an open magnet near the slip-ring there is always the possibility that we are measuring vXB induction (Fleming's RH rule), as F6 tried to point out.   The first image below shows that induction occurring at the brush contacts with voltage induced across the slip-ring width, not around its circumference.  Then it might be possible that we see a voltage at the brush contacts if they are off to one side (as shown).  Scientists who are brainwashed into believing that vXB is the only form of induction and that a non curl A field (no B field) can't induce will always put up this argument.

To dispel that argument we really need to eliminate the external B field, i.e it should be contained within a closed magnetic circuit.  The second image shows such an experiment using a PM where the magnetic flux is shunted through soft perm material.  The third image is the real killer, that uses a ring core with a toroidal winding on it.  If that produces an induced DC voltage across the slip-ring when there is DC current in the coil, or an AC voltage when there is AC current in the coil, then we have definite proof that the non-curl A field can be detected and used.

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Hi Smudge,

If -E=(v×∇).A, the simplest proof is a Hall effect sensor submitted to A where B=0. Only the Lorentz force is the presumed cause of their functioning.
It's an easy test to do, we avoid mechanics. These sensors output from 1 to 5 mV/Gauss, so they are quite sensitive. If they react with A instead of B, we win.
I don't have much time now and I have to order this cheap electronic component, but I will experiment it.



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Hi Smudge,
If -E=(v×∇).A, the simplest proof is a Hall effect sensor submitted to A where B=0. Only the Lorentz force

My book tells me that triple product (v×∇).A is a scalar so I don't see where you are coming from.
Edit>  If you mistakenly put (v×∇).A when you meant to put the convective term (v.∇)A that I have banged on about then I still don't see why you expect the Hall sensor might detect the A field.
« Last Edit: 2019-06-12, 21:02:03 by Smudge »
   
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