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Author Topic: Marinov Generator  (Read 33841 times)
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... If you mistakenly put (v×∇).A when you meant to put the convective term (v.∇)A that I have banged on about then I still don't see why you expect the Hall sensor might detect the A field.

You're right. It's (v.∇)A that I wanted to talk about. By dint of jumping from the vector product of Lorentz force to the vector potential, we end up mixing the formulas.  :-[
However, the idea remains a good one.

Unlike a disc where the speed of electrons is obtained by its rotation, in a Hall effect sensor it is an input current that makes the speed.
But as in a Faraday disc where a transverse voltage (radial) is measured, it is this transverse voltage that the component outputs.
The transverse voltage is due to the Lorentz force according to the classical explanation, and to the force related to the spatial gradient of A in the explanation by the vector potential.

This spatial gradient of A must therefore produce the same effect as the Lorentz force where it exists and B does not, and consequently influence the Hall effect sensor outside of a magnetic field, which is to be verified.



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You're right. It's (v.∇)A that I wanted to talk about. By dint of jumping from the vector product of Lorentz force to the vector potential, we end up mixing the formulas.  :-[
However, the idea remains a good one.

Unlike a disc where the speed of electrons is obtained by its rotation, in a Hall effect sensor it is an input current that makes the speed.
But as in a Faraday disc where a transverse voltage (radial) is measured, it is this transverse voltage that the component outputs.
The transverse voltage is due to the Lorentz force according to the classical explanation, and to the force related to the spatial gradient of A in the explanation by the vector potential.

This spatial gradient of A must therefore produce the same effect as the Lorentz force where it exists and B does not, and consequently influence the Hall effect sensor outside of a magnetic field, which is to be verified.
OK but I must point out that a primary feature of (v.del)A is its longitudinal components that are absent in vXB,  And the longitudinal induction will not create the Hall effect.  Still worth doing though.
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OK but I must point out that a primary feature of (v.del)A is its longitudinal components that are absent in vXB,  And the longitudinal induction will not create the Hall effect.  Still worth doing though.
Smudge

So what is for you the equivalent of vXB for A?

For me: there is no longitudinal induction in the Faraday disk, only a transverse one due to the relativistic effect of length contraction, because there is no length contraction when the observed length is colinear to the speed vector. The equivalent of vXB for A comes from the Lorentz transformation of the electromagnetic 4-vector which combines A and the scalar potential.
It is named Aµ. Aµ=(φ/c,Ax,Ay,Az). Each coordinate of Aµ are function of the space-time position (ct,x,y,z) we are looking at. Aµ is transformed into A'µ as follows:

|φ/c|    |γ -γβ  0 0 | | 0 |
|A'x | = |-γβ  γ 0 0 | |Ax|
|A'y |    | 0  0  1  0 | |Ay|
|A'z |    | 0  0  0  1 | |Az|

At the beginning, we have no scalar potential in the referential at rest: Aµ=(0,Ax,Ay,Az). Suppose that A is only along x, so Ay=Az=0. You obtain φ/c=-γβAx and A'x=γAx. We are interested here in φ/c which is the scalar potential that appears in the referential of the moving charge from the relativistic effect.
When the velocity v is different at different places in space, as is the case along the radius of a rotating Faraday disc, then φ/c=-γβAx changes with the speed which is included in β=v/c and increases from the center of the disc to the rim. Therefore we obtain a potential difference along the radius, which corresponds to the electric field E=vXB that you see with the Lorentz force.

About the longitudinal induction:
in absence of a scalar potential, a longitudinal induction (say along x) means a longitudinal potential difference viewed by the moving observer (the charge) 𝝯φ/c = γAx1-γAx20, or γAx(ct1,x1,0,0)-γAx(ct2,x2,0,0)0, i.e. that Ax has not the same value at both positions, which implies either a time dependent variation of A (classical induction), or a longitudinal spatial gradient of A along x, or a not constant speed of the observer, the charge (this last case is to be verified with GR, as the observer's referential is no more inertial).

« Last Edit: 2019-06-14, 11:44:27 by F6FLT »


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So what is for you the equivalent of vXB for A?
I am not well versed in using the determinant form of vectors to it will take me some time to convert your 4 vector into something meaningful for me.  My version is in equation A2 of my paper in Reply #51 of this thread.
Quote
About the longitudinal induction:
in absence of a scalar potential, a longitudinal induction (say along x) means a longitudinal potential difference viewed by the moving observer (the charge) γAx1-γAx20, or γAx(ct1,x1,0,0)-γAx(ct2,x2,0,0)0, i.e. that Ax has not the same value at both positions, which implies either a time dependent variation of A (classical induction), or a longitudinal gradient of A along x, or a not constant speed of the observer (the charge).
I don't disagree with that and the non curl A fields can have just that longitudinal gradient of A along x.  Those longitudinal gradients appear in the convective derivative (v.del)A.  But they don't appear in the (vXB) term.  My take on this is that the curl function creates a field where you can't get a longitudinal effect.  So they don't appear in the Faraday disc.  But in a non-curl A field they do exist.  And it is up to us to find that effect.
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I am not well versed in using the determinant form of vectors to it will take me some time to convert your 4 vector into something meaningful for me.  My version is in equation A2 of my paper in Reply #51 of this thread.I don't disagree with that and the non curl A fields can have just that longitudinal gradient of A along x.  Those longitudinal gradients appear in the convective derivative (v.del)A.  But they don't appear in the (vXB) term.  My take on this is that the curl function creates a field where you can't get a longitudinal effect.  So they don't appear in the Faraday disc.  But in a non-curl A field they do exist.  And it is up to us to find that effect.
Smudge

The advantage of using relativity in electromagnetism is that it is complete, because we are really in a 4D universe, and contrary to what we would think, it also makes it easier to imagine qualitative effects.

By using 4-vectors, no more approximations or oversights are made.
For example, a movement relative to the magnetic vector potential will show you a scalar (electric) potential. But also you will no longer see the same vector potential.
However, the electrical potential, as well as the magnetic vector potential, change in a covariant way, hence the interest of treating them together in a formalism that supports it, rather than separately.

For example, we know that the field is derived from a potential. In a 4D space, a vector, like the potential vector, has 4 coordinates.
If we want to move to the fields, we have 16 gradients, one for each difference between each of the 4 coordinates of the 4-vector potential at one point in space-time and each of the 4 coordinates of the 4-vector potential at another point in space-time.
So we get a 4x4 matrix, and this one really gives us _all_ the electromagnetic information at one point in space-time, it's the electromagnetic tensor.

It is noted Fµν=∂µAν - ∂νAµ, according to Einstein's convention. And this gives us the fields we are familiar with:
Fµν=
| 0      -Ex/c  -Ey/c  -Ez/c |
| Ex/c   0      -Bz      By    |
| Ey/c   Bz     0       -Bx    |
| Ez/c  -By     Bx      0      |

If we see so many contradictory opinions in electromagnetism, it is because traditional formalism is insufficient.
Special relativity is not new to me, but its use in electromagnetism, yes. I am trying to familiarize myself, and I regret that electromagnetism was not taught to me on this basis, it is really elegant, complete and uncompromising.



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For anyone interested in here is my latest paper looking into motional induction from the magnetic vector potential A field.  By taking account of both the change of vector amplitude and the change of vector orientation with distance it is possible to obtain classical E = (v × B) motional induction directly from the time-rate-of-change of the magnetic vector potential A. When this procedure is applied to a non-curl A field where B is zero it predicts both a longitudinal {equations 8 or 11} and a transverse {equations 10 or 12} induced force on moving charge.
Enjoy!

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Hi Smudge

I find your paper fascinating, can I pass a question by you as what you think would be the outcome in the following:-

A coax cable which has the center core of iron with a coating of copper, a dielectric insulator and then a copper screen.
The coax is bent to form a loop or multiple loops (coil) where the ends are magnetically and electrically looped together.
So we now have a ferromagnetic core and an inductor/capacitor with an insulating dielectric between the inner and outer copper conductors.
Around the now toroidal looking loops we wind a secondary coil or coils (our output) at 90º.
To the two copper conductors of the coax, we supply an alternating HF current which is at the natural resonant frequency of the capacitive/inductive coax coil/ toroid.

I am thinking of the magnetic fields interreacting with the capacitive charge (a possible magnetic or electron accelerator which would induce charge into the secondary coil).

Thanks in advance

Regards

Mike 8)
ADDED
PS the whole has a ferromagnetic core, the inner conductor
« Last Edit: 2019-07-28, 17:27:15 by Centraflow »


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Hi Smudge

I find your paper fascinating, can I pass a question by you as what you think would be the outcome in the following:-

A coax cable which has the center core of iron with a coating of copper, a dielectric insulator and then a copper screen.
The coax is bent to form a loop or multiple loops (coil) where the ends are magnetically and electrically looped together.
Not sure what you mean here.  Are the inner and outer ends connected so we have a shorted turn of it iron wire that is surrounded by a shorted turn of the coax outer?  Please clarify.

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Not sure what you mean here.  Are the inner and outer ends connected so we have a shorted turn of it iron wire that is surrounded by a shorted turn of the coax outer?  Please clarify.

Smudge

Sorry I was not clear.

Take a piece of coax which has the center core made of iron but coated with copper (that is then a ferromagnetic core and a conductor. Make multiple turns and connect the center core ends together, then the screen to screen ends together so as both inner and outer wires are independent. We would now have both a capacitor and a coil which has a magnetic core.

Hope that explains a bit better :)

Regards

Mike 8)


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OK Mike,
I get it now.  The coax outer will be a shorted turn to the secondary coil wound over it.  Thus the field from the secondary induces eddy currents around the coax and those eddies will cancel out the field thus acting as a magnetic shield preventing the inner core from being magnetized.  Only at very low frequency will that inner core work as an inductor to get any excitation.  And then it can't be resonant.
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OK Mike,
I get it now.  The coax outer will be a shorted turn to the secondary coil wound over it.  Thus the field from the secondary induces eddy currents around the coax and those eddies will cancel out the field thus acting as a magnetic shield preventing the inner core from being magnetized.  Only at very low frequency will that inner core work as an inductor to get any excitation.  And then it can't be resonant.
Smudge

Hi Smudge,

ok, both the inner (copper coating on the iron) is a shorted turn and the outer is not shorted turn so they are like the two plates of a capacitor, in my case 1.22nF, and 0.415mH inductance on the outer screen if not shorted, the inner of course is a shorted turn. The resonant frequency is 223.7kHz.

Around this wound at 90º is the secondary, question is will the secondary see the primary? will the iron center core have eddy currents? what will happen to the capacitive charge in relation to the magnetic field of the core?

Can you see what I am getting at?

Regards

Mike 8)


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Can you see what I am getting at?

Regards

Mike 8)
Not really.  Can you show a sketch or a picture of the set up please?  Just the single loop of coax would do to show me where the input is fed.

Smudge

 
   

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Smudge

see your PM's

Regards

Mike 8)


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Here are a few images showing the A field external to a core.  If the flux in the core is varying with time, for any closed circuit that encloses the core we of course get an E field driving current around that circuit.  For a closed circuit that does not enclose the core there are still E fields, but they do not drive current around the circuit because they cancel out wrt to voltage induction.  But they can polarize the circuit, produce surface charges at different parts of the circuit.  Could this be used to advantage?

For constant flux the A field doesn't vary with time, but electrons moving through that non-linear A field can "feel" a time changing A and therefore an E field.  That E field at any point is proportional to the electron velocity.  In any closed circuit, if electrons travel at constant velocity the sum of any induced voltage is zero, there is no motion-induced voltage to maintain any current.  But there are some parts of the loop where the motion-induced E field supports the current and other parts where it opposes the current.  Again this will create surface charge on the conductor.

In the Marinov generator the motion induced voltage across the slip-ring, coming from relatively high slip-ring velocity, is not negated by the motion-induced voltage from the rest of the closed circuit, because there the velocity is only trivial drift velocity.  So the generator can drive current through a load.  And since it doesn't work in reverse as an electric motor it should be inherently OU.

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A revision of Maxwell Theory, supporting the Marinov's Generator.
Published by Mario J. Pinheiro from the University of Lisbon.
   

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I am re-invigorating this topic in the hope that someone might carry out the experiment.  Tinman (Brad) posted a budget version on this thread in 2018, see first image below.  I posted another image on another thread in June 2019 where Brad said he would have a go, image 2 below.  Brad is a very busy man so I'm hoping someone else will take up the challenge.

Of all the OU devices I have worked on this one promises to come true since we can see where the energy comes from.  The version presented here can have DC current in the toroid thus becoming a replication of Marinov's version using magnets.  The advantage of the toroid is that we can drive with AC and that allows us to use a transformer to step up the small output voltage to more meaningful levels.  If it is shown to work it will answer a fundamental principal that is still the subject of much controversy in the scientific world, can you extract energy from a magnetic vector potential A field where there is zero magnetic B field, where curl A = zero.

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Just a note
Did start mirror topic
Here https://overunity.com/18889/builders-board-discussion-for-smudges-marinov-experiments/msg558803/#msg558803

(Smudge is moderator there also ( his section there)

With gratitude
Chet
   
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Smudge
That is an interesting concept and I have done quite a few experiments which relate to this subject.

1) A magnet made of conductive material spun on it's N-S axis will develop an induced voltage from the center to the perimeter not unlike a homopolar generator. This is true because the magnetic field exists in the space within and around the magnet itself and does not rotate with the magnet. I developed a magnetic bearing stabilizer based on this concept. I used an aluminum plate adjacent to the magnet and no eddy currents were induced by the spinning magnet until it moved off center in which case eddy currents were generated centering/stabilizing the spinning magnet. Obviously my stabilizer would not work and induce a large drag force if the magnetic field rotated with it's source ergo it does not.

2) A large turn coil like a Tesla coil spun on the horizonal axis with brushes on each end will also develop a voltage across it and a current in a closed circuit. This is true because the coil is in an electric field gradient, the Earth has a negative charge and the atmosphere a positive charge increasing with elevation. As such the free electrons are always repelled from the Earth and attracted to the upper atmosphere in a conductor. When we spin the coil the free electrons want to rise from both sides of the coil upwards however the conductor in spinning. Thus the free electrons trapped at the top of the coil find themselves in a conductor with a corkscrew motion and with each turn they move horizontally. The action is no different than a spiral pump shown below only the fluid is electrons instead of water.

This is the beauty of the scientific method in developing a basic fundamental theory of how stuff works for ourselves then proving it by doing relatively inexpensive experiments and gaining a wealth of knowledge in the process.

I use a very different approach than most and my thoughts revolve around forces and motion on whatever level they may occur. I try to avoid math and specific terminology as well as the usual trappings of circular logic supposing that just because something is considered normal here it is considered normal everywhere. The universe would seem to be a very big place with many different perspectives and I think we must have concepts common to everyone relating to nature.

Regards
AC






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I assume that the reason homopolar generators and motors attract little attention is because they operate in an unusual regime (low voltage, high current) where losses like brush friction and resistance make them unviable commercially.  However these objections can be overcome by using rolling contacts.  Of particular interest is the possibility of driving the Marinov generator with a classical homopolar motor (like the Faraday Disc).  The DC output of the Marinov generator could drive the homopolar motor (compatibility wrt low voltage, high current) which in turn mechanically drives the generator.  The OU potential of the Marinov generator offers the potential for the system to free run and at the same time deliver excess shaft energy to something else.  The electrical connection between the two would be via the axles of the rolling brushes, which can carry the high current needed.  Opportunities exist here for some innovative designs.  Unlike other free running magnetic motors, the excess energy can be accounted for via a visible link to the quantum domain.
   

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Smudge
That is an interesting concept and I have done quite a few experiments which relate to this subject.

1) A magnet made of conductive material spun on it's N-S axis will develop an induced voltage from the center to the perimeter not unlike a homopolar generator. This is true because the magnetic field exists in the space within and around the magnet itself and does not rotate with the magnet. I developed a magnetic bearing stabilizer based on this concept. I used an aluminum plate adjacent to the magnet and no eddy currents were induced by the spinning magnet until it moved off center in which case eddy currents were generated centering/stabilizing the spinning magnet. Obviously my stabilizer would not work and induce a large drag force if the magnetic field rotated with it's source ergo it does not.
Interesting demonstration that the magnetic field does not spin.  For myself I concluded that the trivial spin speeds we produce just can't compare with the spin speeds of orbital electron or the electrons themselves, hence our applied spin does nothing to the magnetic field.
Quote
2) A large turn coil like a Tesla coil spun on the horizonal axis with brushes on each end will also develop a voltage across it and a current in a closed circuit. This is true because the coil is in an electric field gradient, the Earth has a negative charge and the atmosphere a positive charge increasing with elevation. As such the free electrons are always repelled from the Earth and attracted to the upper atmosphere in a conductor. When we spin the coil the free electrons want to rise from both sides of the coil upwards however the conductor in spinning. Thus the free electrons trapped at the top of the coil find themselves in a conductor with a corkscrew motion and with each turn they move horizontally. The action is no different than a spiral pump shown below only the fluid is electrons instead of water.

The earth's E field is little used.  At the surface it is something like 300V/m on a clear day (or night) but it does change when there is cloud cover, and that change can be a reversal of the field as a highly charged cloud moves overhead.  I did offer the possibility that dowsing uses the earth's E field.  The Y shaped stick that some dowsers use concentrates the E field emanating from the human-body shaped extension to the earth's surface, (it is well known that surface charge concentrates at sharp points).  The stick is held in a position of unstable equilibrium where the slightest change of the E force on the charged tip triggers its movement.  That change comes from the presence of the underground water, its higher electrical conductivity wrt the soil influences the surface E field.  A sensitive E field detector could detect the same thing.

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Smudge

Was uncertain as to the exact concept of the Marinov Motor/Generator until I found this video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTuDrJVzCpo

It would seem to be a variation of the homopolar motor/generator in my opinion. It's not common knowledge but supposedly closed magnetic paths are seldom if ever closed. I have measured external magnetic fields in all closed transformers well below saturation and closed circuits using magnets. I found this to be true because there is always leakage where laminations or magnets interface or imperfections in the domains. There is also the fact that one condition(a North pole) cannot transition to an opposite condition(a South pole) without moving through a zero plane or neither condition in the process. So any resistance/reluctance in a system must produce discontinuity on some level in principal.

Quote
Interesting demonstration that the magnetic field does not spin.  For myself I concluded that the trivial spin speeds we produce just can't compare with the spin speeds of orbital electron or the electrons themselves, hence our applied spin does nothing to the magnetic field.

It is no coincidence that the Magnetic, Electric, Gravic, Inertial fields and light do not spin with there source. No wave property does spin with it's source which gives us some insight into it's nature.

I find most peoples thinking on this subject to be bizarre to be honest. Now suppose I had a cam shaped cylinder spinning in water producing a periodic wave like disturbance due to the cam displacing a volume of water. Should I suppose that the displaced water or wave it produces must spin with the source?. It seems absurd because the displacement is always at right angles to the source of the displacement.

Quote
The earth's E field is little used.  At the surface it is something like 300V/m on a clear day (or night) but it does change when there is cloud cover, and that change can be a reversal of the field as a highly charged cloud moves overhead.

Many people know that Earth's E field is around 300V/m but few have considered that 300V/m is equal to 3V/cm or 0.3V/mm. So while the difference in voltage may appear insignificant on smaller scales it does not change the fact that Power is equal to the difference in potential times the rate of change or current. So if we could cycle a small difference in potential at a very high rate of change we still get tangible power generation.

As Einstein said... nothing happens until something moves however what he didn't say is that motion is energy. Thus the rate of change or motion must always be an integral part of our consideration of the Energy something has. The absolute "rate of change" has many facets to consider which also relates to the total energy of something within a system.

Regards
AC


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Smudge

Was uncertain as to the exact concept of the Marinov Motor/Generator until I found this video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTuDrJVzCpo
It would seem to be a variation of the homopolar motor/generator in my opinion.
That device is not true to the Marinov device, the slip-rings are in the wrong place.  And you may be right, that might be using classical flux cutting to produce the motion.

Quote
It's not common knowledge but supposedly closed magnetic paths are seldom if ever closed. I have measured external magnetic fields in all closed transformers well below saturation and closed circuits using magnets. I found this to be true because there is always leakage where laminations or magnets interface or imperfections in the domains. There is also the fact that one condition(a North pole) cannot transition to an opposite condition(a South pole) without moving through a zero plane or neither condition in the process. So any resistance/reluctance in a system must produce discontinuity on some level in principal.
I spoke with a professor at Delft University and he showed me what he thought was a great discovery, a leakage field in a transformer that had primary and secondary coils on opposite sides of the closed core magnetic path.  I had to explain that this was not something new, Lenz's Law produces a secondary field that counters the primary field and must drive flux outside the core if the secondary is not wound over the primary.

I don't think the Marinov generator is a classical homopolar device, classical physics does not allow induction along a moving conductor when the velocity of the conductor is along its length.  All classical generators use conductors that have their velocity vector at right angles to the conductor line-element.  This slip-ring generator induces voltage along the conductor while the velocity is also along the conductor.  That is something new.

Smudge
   
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