The Flywheel ?

[Duncan]

Well some of the maths seems to add up ... still I wonder what some of you guys with a better  mechanical acumen than me make of this writing  http://www.backgauges.com/Gen-E-Sys%20II/ I did read through it and then emailed Mr Frost .. a very friendly guy, he spent a deal of Skype time with me. having had several recent heart issues he is eager to pass on his experiences whilst he still may. The owner of a  fabrication factory in Wisconsin he is alas no longer able to run it at capacity. He does however have many machines to show some of which he was kind enough to show me over Skype and some he was reluctant to point a camera at.                

[TinMan]

Quote from the link-:1. A Man in good health is capable of developing less than 100 watts or Joules of sustained "energy" per second without a machine.

2. The same Man can easily develop 300 watts per second with a simple machine known as the flywheel. (In reality it can be much more)

3. The 300 watts of energy in the flywheel per second can be transferred to another wheel which would then also have 300 watts for one second.

4. If the flywheel rotates once per second - the same man could place a circular array of 5 identical flywheels in motion in one revolution, each additional flywheel having 300 watts for one second.

5. 5 times 300 is 1500 no matter whether done by an imbecile, or a brain surgeon.

6. 1500 divided by 100 is 15. The same logic applies. Except that this shows the machine amplified the Man's 100 watts of input "energy 15 times. = COP 15 no problem.

Lets look at this statement-: The 300 watts of energy in the flywheel per second can be transferred to another wheel which would then also have 300 watts for one second.
NO-each flywheel would have 150 watts of stored energy,minus losses through the transfer(belts,gears),and also losses through the bearings.This is asumeing that the flywheels are of the same size,and are now spinning at the same speed.


Now this one-:  If the flywheel rotates once per second - the same man could place a circular array of 5 identical flywheels in motion in one revolution, each additional flywheel having 300 watts for one second.

First up,time has no meaning-the flywheels have 300 watts of stored energy wether it's removed from them in one second,or one hour.The time it takes to depleete this 300 watt's is dependant on load.
The man would have to put 1500 watts of energy(+ losses)into the 5 flywheels (of same size)for each of those flywheels to have 300 watts(or joules) of stored energy.

Im afraid the mans thinking in this book is all wrong.

[Duncan]

oh dear poor guy! I hope there's a flaw in that some where timman from what I saw Michael has spent thousands and thousands of dollars already. and what he has built certainly isn't small scale . I have often thought there may be an unknown x factor in a flywheel action but of course it wouldn't be seen in  standard dogma. The point where he seems to deviate from the simple explanation he offers and you quote,is in practice  the input is a series of  rapid and variable pulses (duty cycles) . from an experiment point of view I see lots of troubles here ... not least accurately measuring the input power. still the claim is that with the correct mass , frequency and duty cycle this arrangement is COP >1 of course the 'self runner' is what we want to see as proof positive , I wasn't shown that         

[Grumage]

Dear Duncan.

Having spent the last two months or so with my mechanical "hat" on, which is a much closer tolerance fit than my electronic one !!     I am writing to let you know that I have a little faith in the proposed Flywheel experiment.

I have attached a picture of the "ingredients" that will be assembled in the next week or so.  This is while I wait for some parts to come for another project I am currently working on.

The only second hand parts are the flywheels. The smaller one from a 1/2 HP 1910 Town Gas engine and the larger one is from my 3/4 HP 1890's Robinson "X" Town Gas engine. Both have a substantial weight to them and should prove one way or the other the feasibility.

The drive motor is a 3/4 HP Chinese lathe motor and the Alternator is a 6 KVA Italian made brushless excitation 3000 RPM for 50 HZ. Both are Brand new !!

Let the gravity field commence !!

Cheers Grum.

[Chet K]

Duncan
Also I will throw My hat in the ring for a visit to your friend in Wisconsin if need be. [would be a big trip for me]
if it will help in the replication?

@ Grum
very nice... very nice indeed....

thx
Chet

[Centraflow]

Wow Guy's, just when >I thought it safe to come back to the forum

After spending a few days playing tenis with one on EF over flywheels and the like, I came here

I will be watching with gusto graham

regards

Mike

[Tommey Reed]

Hi All.

I might be able to add this to my summer projects, is there any videos on this flywheel?

Tom

[Grumage]

Dear Mike.

A little story...

My engineering skills were mostly taught me by an old hand. His name was Alex, he had a small precision engineering unit near where you were based in Wrexham. Sadly, Alex has passed on but his son still runs the business.

Some months back I called in to "Cadge" some 1" Dia bar for this very project. Tim asked what I was up to, I of course told him and to my surprise he said that a chap not to far away from me was running successfully something on the same lines !!     And had been doing so for the last 17 years !!  Tim had made him the solid steel flywheels. I asked Tim if he could put me in touch but nothing has surfaced as yet.

I am hoping to "put this one to bed" either proving or disproving this perennial myth !! 

Cheers Graham.

[Grumage]

Hi All.

I might be able to add this to my summer projects, is there any videos on this flywheel?

Tom

Dear Tom.

You must have seen this ??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgk0HfXhU9M

Let's see what we can achieve !!

Cheers Graham.

[Tommey Reed]

Hi All,

Now I remember seeing this video, I do believe he is on to something.

Inertia is a stored mechanical energy like a capacitor, would be a interesting project.

Those flywheel looks big and heavy, lots of metal to build that project.

Maybe concrete flywheel in a drum might work?

It's cheaper and you could make any size you need.

Thanks Graham for the video

Tom.

[ion]

Small flywheels as used in toy gyros have the mass concentrated in the rim, the stuff closer to the axle can be a waste of material.

Some of these small units are filled almost all the way with fine sand and can be self balancing.

I was thinking the same thing can be done with a tire filled partway with sand if you don't go too fast.

It may need a steel reinforcing band welded from the rim to the outside to contain the force, but you could get lots of rotational self balancing mass on the outside and on the cheap.

Disclaimer: Don't try this it is dangerous. 

[Duncan]

Hi Chet .. I have emailed you contact details for Michael with his permisso , email and skype, (his preference is skype)  its a long haul for you to take in person, I suggest you skype Michael have a look and listen and then decide for yourself best wishes Duncan

[TinMan]

Dear Tom.

You must have seen this ??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgk0HfXhU9M

Let's see what we can achieve !!

Cheers Graham.

Ah yes,Mr Chas-a man that dosnt know the difference between start up currents,and run currents. A 2000 watt grinder dosnt use 2000 watts unless under full load.


The flywheel is an energy storage device,not an energy making device.

[Chet K]

Duncan
I am working out of town ,when I get back home I will contact him [tonight]
@Brad
If there is one thing we do know how to do here,...
its measure input and output,


thx
Chet

[ion]

Never tried this and I don't know if it is real, but consider the Aspden Effect in a flywheel.

http://www.haroldaspden.com/lectures/30.htm

[wattsup]

@all

There is a complete thread at OU on Chas going back some time. Suggest anyone interested in such a device look it up before doing any major works.

Just remember that any generator will have a minimum RPM requirement before it can start to dish out some juice. But then you have your prime mover and its gear/pulley ratios to reach that generator RPM. Then you have the fact that when you increase RPM at a given motive force, you decrease torque, so higher RPM is not always the best answer. Then you have conventional generator drag and prime mover losses which may then push one to custom build a smart motor and generator set. The story can go on and on for years and years like pulling on an elastic band increases the pressure exertion but thins out the rubber, this dance of give and take is not an easy tune to follow.

Just make sure the drive motor and generator shafts and all gears, pulleys and wheels are supported by two bearings otherwise your motors will bear the brunt of any misalignments.

Also, please know that should you accept this project, then in the event that you or anyone associated with this project should die or are missing in action, this department will deny any involvement. This post will self-destruct in 5 seconds ....., ....., ....., ....., ....., hehehe.

wattsup

[Paul-R]

Ah yes,Mr Chas-a man that dosnt know the difference between start up currents,and run currents. A 2000 watt grinder dosnt use 2000 watts unless under full load.

You have missed the point of this.
http://www.free-energy-info.com/Chapter4.pdf
See page 4. (N.B. page numbers change as material is added or taken away).

[Duncan]

That's great Chet I know from conversations with Michael that working on the switching and pulse circuitry with him  is nvisser who I have also  met (he's also no stranger to MJN) . He certainly doesn't need ohms law explaining to him and I know he  has all the instruments over in Pretoria and knows how to drive them. It's of course possible that even Vissie can miss something obvious but for me it adds a lot of weight to the possibility that something out of the ordinary is happening here.

[Duncan]

Grum --- what a great collection of parts that are not easily found ! Its not easy to work on something that you don't fully believe in, and its hard to believe when the engineering  isn't fully understood and  pulsed flywheels are certainly slap bang in the middle of that! just consider this Grumage there are plenty of examples of these flywheel systems working or being claimed to work and very few of the folks have tried to profit or scam. as you say .. we'll see!   PS this is how not to do it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmXBebQzMyQ  but if you do sell the farm in order to build and end living in a horse box .. Its nice if you can still sing about it ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ79DqWYGI0

[Grumage]

Grum --- what a great collection of parts that are not easily found ! Its not easy to work on something that you don't fully believe in, and its hard to believe when the engineering  isn't fully understood and  pulsed flywheels are certainly slap bang in the middle of that! just consider this Grumage there are plenty of examples of these flywheel systems working or being claimed to work and very few of the folks have tried to profit or scam. as you say .. we'll see!                         

Dear Duncan.

I am a firm believer in my own skills, after all I have known me all my life !!    That assemblage has cost £450 ++ The alternator was the most expensive @ £325.00, Taperlock pulleys and Plummer blocks £135.00 then a little more cash for the various other bit's and bob's.

It was you and some others who spurred me on and I am also grateful to ION who has posted Harold Aspden. My workshop that is built into the side of a hill get's very wet in the winter months so I only venture into it during the summer months these days. AGE !! 
This is why I have only now got onto this project that has been simmering in my head for a very long time.

As I said previously, it's time to put this one to bed, one way or the other. I will give it my best shot. All that is left to do is Mill the keyways and weld up the 40 mm box section steel frame. I had presented this idea for belt pulsing, see attached sketch. What do our readers think ??

Cheers Graham.

[Duncan]

As you recall Grumage I was at  variance with your (or rather your buddy) regarding the source  of the gain, I know one or two guys who have built  these flywheel systems on accepted engineering principles just as your doing .. (one is Jetijs from energetics forum and to be honest I have rarely seen engineering to match his work.)  Still built like that they simply don't seem to work ... The ones that actually do work have awful engineering (at least load matching wise)with the main drive being terribly overloaded .. I think intentionally  .. in fact they are unable to start at all unaided. So that every one that works must have either assisted start or the load applied gradually (until overloaded.) I suspect this is because the drive has to be run in  state  where it is forced out of a comfortable synchronous condition so large reactive current can circulate. This is the view I explained before that most neither see or agree with, I also suggested that two Squirrel cage motors  be used (and not an alternator) I also if you recall suggested a dirt cheap source for alternators (if you were determined to use one).I suggested that grum because I don't think an alternator is the right tool here but again that's just my opinion, and I hope you prove me wrong, Of course I encourage research Grumage something is happening here under certain conditions that can't easily be explained. Still regarding the reason its happening we obviously have different views I don't believe this is a purely mechanical action. Although it may look that way. I doubt that pulse could be duplicated mechanically as its phase  is not accounted for in current mechanics, Regardless of my views you and your friend will buy manufacture and engineer exactly what you have envisioned, I too have little faith in what you picture and described working. As it is.  Still I do have faith in what may follow after the obvious is eliminated  we can only build what we imagine. Tesla was puzzled that folks failed ever to see the whole circuit and  that seems especially the case here, one part of the equation is the pulse broadcast forward onto the flywheel  what seems totally ignored is the inevitable equal and opposite effect reflected back at the supply. still you have most of the bits there to make a good fist of the project .... very nice                                      

[Centraflow]

Dear Mike.

A little story...

My engineering skills were mostly taught me by an old hand. His name was Alex, he had a small precision engineering unit near where you were based in Wrexham. Sadly, Alex has passed on but his son still runs the business.

Some months back I called in to "Cadge" some 1" Dia bar for this very project. Tim asked what I was up to, I of course told him and to my surprise he said that a chap not to far away from me was running successfully something on the same lines !!     And had been doing so for the last 17 years !!  Tim had made him the solid steel flywheels. I asked Tim if he could put me in touch but nothing has surfaced as yet.

I am hoping to "put this one to bed" either proving or disproving this perennial myth !! 

Cheers Graham.

Hi Graham

I am thinking of putting all I have found on the William Skinner machine here.

It has really opened my eyes once I realised how it works, it is quite brilliant and well thought out from start to finish, and imagine it was made in 1939 just before the war broke out, and with no internet, basicly I think it was not seen again and forgotten about.

All there is left is a short newsreel film and a still press photo.

Skinner was also the inventor of the plate heat exchanger, I did not know that and came as quite a surprise when I read his patent.

The more I delved into each part of the machine, I realised just what he had done, untilised gravity in conjunction with centripetal and centrifugal forces, I call it 3D because it is exactly that.

I will upload what I have onto a separate thread for people to judge for themselves

regards

Mike

[T-1000]

Hi guys,

Just spotted this topic going hot and I would like to add - when you have high rpm low power motor and very low rpm high power generator, it is possible to turn it with leverage effect. A bit of history - the Archimedes lever:



Cheers!

[TinMan]

You have missed the point of this.
http://www.free-energy-info.com/Chapter4.pdf
See page 4. (N.B. page numbers change as material is added or taken away).

I have missed no point at all. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction,and that is yet to be proven wrong. Chas Campbell never once applied a continual load to the output that equaled the input-little lone a larger load than the input.

No one to date has ever shown beyound doubt (through propper and third party testing),that these Qmogens work-another Stirling Allen fairy tale.
Lets take a little look at the PDF you posted Paul-R,and see what junk they talk about.


Quote Lawrence Tseung: This fact has recently been stressed by Lawrence Tseung who refers to the extra energy obtained in this way as being "Lead-out" energy. This gravitational feature has been part of university Engineering courses for decades, where it has been taught that the loading stress on a bridge caused by a load rolling across the bridge is far less than the stress caused if that same load were suddenly dropped on to the bridge.

Ok,so if the load were lifted say 5 meters,and it weighed say 5 ton,and then droped onto the bridge,it may hit the bridge with the force of say 50 ton-cool. Now take away the energy or force that it took to lift the load 5 meters into the air,and you are left with the same amount of loading stress(as they call it)as if the load was just rolling across the bridge.Nothing at all was gained-except a broken bridge,wich will now need more energy to repair.Adding a flywheel(wether pulsed or not),between a motor and generator,will do nothing but use more power,via losses through the belt's and bearings.

Some fact's
Motors of all kinds run less than 100% efficient = loss
Generator's are less than 100% efficient = loss
Belt's consume power = loss
Bearings consume power = loss
These are fact's,so no-i havnt missed the point.

[TinMan]

Ok,well some may think im being negative in regards to what i have said so far,but im just stating known facts.
But there IS some special effects that take place with the flywheel/gyroscopic forces that can be of great advantage. I will be as bold to say that although every action has an equal action,it dosnt necessarily have to be opposite.If we remove the !opposite! from the reaction through force diversion provided by gyroscopic effect's,we then have the ability to create uni directional force. Not a free energy machine,but a reactionless drive,as they call it.

I tend to steer away from,and are vary weary of the reality calls of youtube video's now day's,as i dont believe that youtube is a place you will see an actual working device.But please dont get me wrong,i still believe that the day will come when one of us has a breakthrough, and i wont stop trying to find it-that is the free energy machine of course.