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Author Topic: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply  (Read 296922 times)
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Les
thank you for the links and your patience.[I will repost those links here at the top of this page]

thx
Chet




 
« Last Edit: 2014-09-23, 15:03:30 by Chet K »
   

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Dear All.

I am standing firm !!

The "Otto" or 4 stroke IC Engine uses  2 revolutions of the crank to complete it's cycle.

The induction stroke is half of the first revolution second half is compression. Start of second revolution, power stroke followed by exhaust.

My simple logic is telling me that induction is therefore one quarter of the running speed!!

Am I correct?

Cheers Graham.
Edit-had to rethink that Graham
Induction stroke is 1/2 the running speed,as it happens once every 2 revolutions.If your motor is running at 3000 RPM,then you will have 1500 induction strokes.(4 strokes,but 2 revolutions) So it is 1500 divided by 60 seconds =25. So you will be injecting 25 times every second,or once every 40 milliseconds. The duration of the induction stroke is half this,so you inject every 40 milliseconds for a period of 20 milliseconds for the full induction stroke.

Brad
« Last Edit: 2014-09-23, 14:06:36 by TinMan »


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Edit-had to rethink that Graham
Induction stroke is 1/2 the running speed,as it happens once every 2 revolutions.If your motor is running at 3000 RPM,then you will have 1500 induction strokes.(4 strokes,but 2 revolutions) So it is 1500 divided by 60 seconds =25. So you will be injecting 25 times every second,or once every 40 milliseconds. The duration of the induction stroke is half this,so you inject every 40 milliseconds for a period of 20 milliseconds for the full induction stroke.

Brad


Dear Brad.

Ok I see where you are coming from but from my perspective I still see Induction as being a quarter of the complete cycle.

The main reason behind me pushing this however is the fact that we could effectively beat the 300 mS half life that Mike mentioned yesterday and get the super energetic gas into the cylinder !! Mike told me via Skype that it is quality not quantity that is required.

My apologies for brain teasing !   :)

Cheers Graham.


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Dear Brad.

Ok I see where you are coming from but from my perspective I still see Induction as being a quarter of the complete cycle.

The main reason behind me pushing this however is the fact that we could effectively beat the 300 mS half life that Mike mentioned yesterday and get the super energetic gas into the cylinder !! Mike told me via Skype that it is quality not quantity that is required.

My apologies for brain teasing !   :)

Cheers Graham.
It's quite simple to work out Graham. All you do is ask your self-how many times will the inlet valve open in 3000revolutions,as we know the induction cycle is when the inlet valve opens. So the answer is 1500. So we have a motor running at 3000 RPM,and the inlet valve opens 1500 times in that minute. 1500 divided by 60 seconds = 25. So our inlet valve opens 25 times every second,or once every 40 milliseconds-as dose our exaust valve right befor that.As there is both the exaust stroke and inlet stroke in the same revolution,we know each must be half in time of that 40 millisecond's,.So each complete stroke of the piston takes 20 millisecond's.

In regards to the 300millisecond time limit-well all i can say is yes,i understand this fully.


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Might be helpful to think of 2 and 4 cycle engines as 2 and 4 stroke engines, the conrod is attached to the crank and the piston makes two strokes for each revolution of the crank one up stoke and one down stroke, a four stroke engine fires once every two revolutions of the crank = 4 strokes, a two stroke engine fires every revolution, which is why a two stroke engine can produce more power for weight and work better as single cylinder engines. Large bore single cylinder 4 stroke engines like for example a 600 cc motorcycle engine make quite lumpy power but of course a 4 stroke engine is more efficient than 2 stroke. 4 stroke brush cutters are not good, the best brush cutters are 2 stroke. The best motocross/scrambler bikes are two strokes, a YZ 465 scrambler built in 1980's can eat modern 600cc 4 strokes for breakfast in the bush. The fastest and best Grand Prix motorcycles were four cylinder two stroke engines. I don't watch Grand Prix bike racing any more because now they are all 4 stroke engines. If ever one wants to buy the very best radical road bike for gong nuts on I would suggest finding an RZ500 or similar.  ;) Not many left in one piece.

Brads right a four stroke engine opens it's intake valve once every two revolutions of the crank, once ever four strokes of the piston. The only way to modify the opening and closing of the valves is to alter the camshaft, lumpy cams in the old days opened the valves wide and quickly, double valve springs and so forth help to close them quicker. If the valve times are too wide problems can occur at high revs due to physical restrictions of valve movements. Two stroke don't have that problem.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=4+cycle+engine&client=firefox-a&hs=CHq&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&tbm=isch&imgil=9OQjCq1dJpJdIM%253A%253Bk7QjePWNg3THNM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ict4us.com%25252Fr.kuijt%25252Fen_strokeengine.htm&source=iu&pf=m&fir=9OQjCq1dJpJdIM%253A%252Ck7QjePWNg3THNM%252C_&usg=__QJVmrdImYjGwTCxuYQC_mJ7fHjo%3D&biw=1280&bih=647&ved=0CEEQyjc&ei=OawhVJLAK4Om8AWy1YGAAg#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=9OQjCq1dJpJdIM%253A%3Bk7QjePWNg3THNM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ict4us.com%252Fr.kuijt%252Fimages%252Fen_strokeengine.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ict4us.com%252Fr.kuijt%252Fen_strokeengine.htm%3B450%3B296

I think 4 and 2 stroke conventional IC engines are outdated and not very efficient by design, which can never be overcome while the piston pushes down on a rod that is near the top of the rotation of the the big end. A lot of the force would seem to want to push the crank down out of the engine but because it cannot it deflects the thrust to the side to rotate the crank. Seems wasteful to me. Kinda like trying to improve a steam engine in a way. I don't think the future will have IC engines in the current configuration getting very efficient overall.
..

In my opinion reliability wins out over efficiency for a transport vehicle anyway. When HHO can power a car reliably and similarly to how my 2001 Holden runs on unleaded then I will be impressed. It can take me across the country at almost 10 klms a liter or it can barrel down the highway at over 200 klms per hour it's reliable safe and not overly expensive to buy or run. However I cannot service and tune it like I used to do with my 1971 HQ premier, which would make a pancake out of the 2001 Commodore if they had a head on collision.  :(
« Last Edit: 2014-09-23, 19:19:45 by Farmhand »
   
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Hi Farmhand,

Nice, 10 years of MX here, did have old engines from Andre Vromans or Hakan Carlqist! ;-))

--------------

Nice tested alternative for pistons engines and perfect in combi with HHO: Take just a Rotary-Vane air-motor, PTFE / Teflon with Bronze particle filled vane's.

Enter / Inject some HHO at the entrance , ignite, and rotation,  at the closed exit (back-side) of the roter automatically the contraction, drain with small small gear-pump the rest or remaining water.


Regards, Johan
   
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Dear All.

I am standing firm !!

My simple logic is telling me that induction is therefore one quarter of the running speed!!

Am I correct?

All I know is you guys drive your cars on the wrong side of the road.   ;D

http://www.animatedengines.com/otto.html

Best if you don't mix speed with angle.  The rule I have always used since the days of building Formula SAE engine management systems is to think only about angle, 0 - 720 degrees.  Once you have it certain in your head WHERE everything happens, then go back and look at it again WHEN things happen.  Plot those events out for three or four different crankshaft speeds and it will become clear what your boundaries are.

Fuel injection is one of those inverse relationships where the faster the engine turns (more shaft horsepower), the less time you have to push more air and fuel into the engine.  The concept is called volumetric efficiency and is what sets the limitations of an ICE.

As Les has stated, you can inject fuel during the entire 720 degree cycle provided your intake valve is properly sealing, by doing this however beyond just the 180 degrees of intake value opening, all you will accomplish is to richen the fuel mixture, something we don't want to do with HydrOxy.  Here we want the leanest mixture possible, so we need to move the HydrOxy rapidly, with low pressure at the most optimum time, when the intake valve is open and the piston is drawing in air.  So 20ms at 3000 RPM is way too long.  At most 10ms plus the lag of the injector opening, minus the lag of the injector closing.  We want no residual HydrOxy in the intake manifold; it all needs to be sucked into the engine.  The terminology I use is fuel charge and for HydrOxy the fuel charge must be completely aspirated for each intake stroke.

Les has it exactly right, timing is everything.
   
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Fuel injection is one of those inverse relationships where the faster the engine turns (more shaft horsepower), the less time you have to push more air and fuel into the engine.  The concept is called volumetric efficiency and is what sets the limitations of an ICE.

As Les has stated, you can inject fuel during the entire 720 degree cycle provided your intake valve is properly sealing, by doing this however beyond just the 180 degrees of intake value opening, all you will accomplish is to richen the fuel mixture, something we don't want to do with HydrOxy.  Here we want the leanest mixture possible, so we need to move the HydrOxy rapidly, with low pressure at the most optimum time, when the intake valve is open and the piston is drawing in air.  So 20ms at 3000 RPM is way too long.  At most 10ms plus the lag of the injector opening, minus the lag of the injector closing.  We want no residual HydrOxy in the intake manifold; it all needs to be sucked into the engine.  The terminology I use is fuel charge and for HydrOxy the fuel charge must be completely aspirated for each intake stroke.

Les has it exactly right, timing is everything.

Matt, Brad,

I am glad to see that both of you understand the timing issue!
(There are probably others who understand also but cannot post because they are on “read only”.)

I any case, there is one very important document which has been over looked by just about everyone is the “4 stroke engine timing cycle saw tooth” I have created. 
(it is named 'engtsawt.gc1.pdf' in the schematics Folder)


It is a graphical representation of the engine's work cycle.

It explains the HEART of my WFGP design and your success (or failure) depends on it!

Yes, this is the HI-TECH stuff which you need to understand to do the IGNITION and INJECTION timing for YOUR your engine and yes, you will need to refer to this chart during the engine timing set-up!!

As I have explained in the 'Igninje5 circuit description.doc', you will need a dual trace oscilloscope to do the timing adjustments.
Those who have a 4 trace oscilloscope will be able to see the pulses from the Hall switch, the 'saw tooth', the ignition and injection pulses all at the same time!
And guess what! 
What you will see is EXACTLY what you see in my “4 stroke engine timing cycle saw tooth” drawing!!!


So, I suggest you print out the chart and make a CLOSE study of it while carefully reading the circuit description!
Oh, I know its 11 pages but so be it!

I am attaching the 'engtsawt.gc1.pdf' file to this post and by the way, almost all the files I attach to my posts are part of the WFGP Folders.

Cheers,
Les Banki
   
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Peter,

Attached are the pcb layouts for the 2 boards, plus the slightly modified circuit diagram (test points added for the second board).

If you wish, you can use them as they are. (no need to re-draw them)

Note that I no longer use screw terminal connectors where I can avoid them!
I use Quick connector terminals 6.35mm and 4.8mm.
The only 'caveat' is that you need a decent 'ratchet' type crimping tool to fit the wire connectors.
(automotive type crimping tools are NOT good enough for most jobs)

Note also that I use 'loop' type test points (TP) but other types can also be used.

The transformer is an EPCOS ETD49 (20 pin).
The heath sinks are standard types here but may differ from what is available in other parts of the world.

[For all who read this, once again, please understand that the second board (with the transformer) is an EXPERIMENTAL circuit....]

That is all.

Cheers,
Les Banki
   
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FarmHand
A Holden....
here is one of your countrymen who has done something impressive with "hydrogen" and a Holden.
http://www.clean-air.org/commodore.html

perhaps invite him here to learn a much better way ?[and less costly]


thx
Chet
   

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Thanks Les
I have emailed Grace for a quote for 10 of each PCB.  O0

Regards
Peter
   
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For anyone in the USA looking to order the specified JET 21  injector from POLIAUTO
Western Union can do this for you to avoid Bank Wire transfer issues [COD transaction at your local Western Union Rep]

I also have some Leads to follow up from Doug H. at the American Hydrogen Association for a possible Domestic source.

I have invited Doug and his associates to view here .

Will keep you posted.

thx
Chet
   

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OK guys PCBs are being made, i will let everyone know when they land  O0
   
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It's turtles all the way down
FarmHand
A Holden....
here is one of your countrymen who has done something impressive with "hydrogen" and a Holden.
http://www.clean-air.org/commodore.html

perhaps invite him here to learn a much better way ?[and less costly]


thx
Chet

Unless I missed something, I would have left the original distributor and ignition system in place(single coil), clamped the advance or provided a dashboard adjustable advance. He could have picked off the injector timing from a high tension lead from the previous firing cylinder (capacitive) and added the necessary delay to allow the appropriate injector to open at the prescribed time. This would have shaved a lot of the cost.

Still, an admirable project.


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For anyone in the USA looking to order the specified JET 21  injector from POLIAUTO
Western Union can do this for you to avoid Bank Wire transfer issues [COD transaction at your local Western Union Rep]

I also have some Leads to follow up from Doug H. at the American Hydrogen Association for a possible Domestic source.

I have invited Doug and his associates to view here .

Will keep you posted.

thx
Chet

Please ignore my alarm, but that thing looks to me like a rolling bomb, if he was rear ended and the thing blew up and killed others he would be in deep kaka me thinks.

..
   
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What to do with the HHO can be worked out, solid results showing the 8 times Faraday limit would be nice to get from several people. Not keen on gas cylinders in cars even LPG, even produce on demand systems would need a safety to shut off production if the system is compromised in an accident.

Chet on a side note about the 1980 commodore, it's an old car, I had one of those as well, mine was 1981 first of the VH model, those cars are almost impossible to roll over and still had carby's.

My 2001 VS commodore, of course has a computer controlled fuel injected V6 engine, it has three ignition coils and the engine is packaged very nicely, the pictured engine is in my vehicle and has done only less than 90 000 klms with all services done at the dealer, 1 previous owner who was dead when I bought the car from his estate.
But the engine is designed to run on unleaded fuel with a specific octane range. The engine is designed for the fuel mainly, a different fuel should require a engine to be designed for that fuel.

Now would anyone in their right mind ruin that solid workhorse engine by trying to run it on hydrogen. 1980 commodores people set on fire for fun, they don't matter any more.

Anyway the most important thing in my opinion is to be able to get enough HHO from the input power to make it possible to power things very cheaply, if that is shown to be possible by many people then engines will get designed to run on it, by car manufacturers or similar.

..

 
   
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Farmhand
Les has mentioned there are fellows driving cars around your country on His technology [or similar?] for over a decade.
I suppose we shall see ?
BTW ,when I saw those cylinders in the back of the Hydrogen car I also felt concern ,but driving around with a tank full of water
and not polluting the environment,  is the goal here..


Chet
PS
Matt,  I see your post below [will watch later 4 AM here]
I want to add this link for consideration from Mike N [Centraflow]


That is to say The Hydrogen remains in a more energetic state for a very short time,  then becomes more passive [for our purposes]
as Les has said many times "timing is everything"
   
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I'd settle for this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3GDjVskYIs

Provided I can disconnect my home from the grid.
   

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Farmhand
Les has mentioned there are fellows driving cars around your country on His technology [or similar?] for over a decade.
I suppose we shall see ?

Chet



No-this is something you will never get to see Chet.
What you will get is the same old story-it's top secret,or the men in black have forbidden the owners to share there tech with anyone-if they do,of course they will just disappear,or wind up in a ditch on the side of the road.

I was born,and have lived here in Australia all my life,and have never heard a thing about any car running on water-and i am in the right circle of people to hear about things like this.

Water is not a fuel-it is an ash. It is the ash of HHO ,and ash doesn't burn. It is however an ash that can be turned back into the fuel that created it,and that's pretty cool.


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Brad
When I said "we shall see"  I did not mean from Les,  I meant from Our replication

Parts are coming and all the info is there [thanks to Les].

thx
Chet

   

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Break 2 H-H, break O=O and in recombination, 4 H-O bonds are made and release energy.

 Using the bond energies of H-H 104 kcal/mole, O-O 119 kcal/mole, and H-O 111kcal/mole  we have

327kcal to split H2O and 444kcal are released as energy when reforming giving a net gain of 117kcal.

we get per kg of H2O  1,361,750 kj of energy

this is all at 100% efficiency of splitting H2O

regards

Mike 8)


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No-this is something you will never get to see Chet.
What you will get is the same old story-it's top secret,or the men in black have forbidden the owners to share there tech with anyone-if they do,of course they will just disappear,or wind up in a ditch on the side of the road.

I was born,and have lived here in Australia all my life,and have never heard a thing about any car running on water-and i am in the right circle of people to hear about things like this.


You are not alone. There is no visible evidence of that in North America either.


   
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Mookie

we intuitively know and have been taught that water has ENORMOUS energy locked into it.perhaps there have been secrets ?

Secrets.... another word for Suppression

Benevolence is an attribute that does not come naturally to some, especially when they feel the pangs of greed or financial insecurity.
The Chinese ran an empire for 5000 years on the secret of a worm that spun silk....

For 5000 years men died trying to find the secret !

is it a secret that water has enormous energy locked into it ?

we have been taught certain things and others  "not so much" .

Now we have the internet , and the tower of Babble is getting reassembled a stone at a time ,soon we will all be able to speak with each other again in real time with true comprehension...

very interesting time we live in ....

I assume nothing regarding "Secrets"/Suppression,  and what is truly possible, I have payed attention to history.


Here we will replicate the work of Les Banki with Gratitude and appreciation,  and here as always we will share !


Its how we roll...

respectfully

Chet
Ps
To concerned parties Augusto [PaliAuto] confirmed shipment yesterday.
« Last Edit: 2014-09-27, 09:25:03 by Chet K »
   
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Here we will replicate the work of Les Banki with Gratitude and appreciation,  and here as always we will share !


And on embarking on this replication, hopefully "we" are all in agreement
with the fact that there is no visible evidence on this planet
of a car ever running on water.
   
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Mookie

 here we run a corvette on Water  [thanks Matt]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3GDjVskYIs

most interesting is the comment at 12:10

Secrets....Suppression or plain ignorance ?

I suspect Greed !

regarding the MO of the above video ,,Storage and release with heat.

Chris Hunter shared a similar effect with Zeolite and Propane ,he called it a solid state compressor.

It turns Propane Gas to liquid just by coming into contact,  and then you can release the liquid back to gas with  a one Volt charge.

Ridiculous energy savings and no moving parts...

is it a secret ???



Chet





   
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