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OverUnity Research > General - Free Energy Related > Most Promising FE Tech > electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply
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Author Topic: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply  (Read 278079 times)
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img  lost_bro
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #425 on: 2015-06-04, 18:47:59 »
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Posts: 281
Quote from: evolvingape on 2015-06-04, 17:35:40
Energy has been wasted yes, our opinions differ on defining that wasted energy.
Not withstanding, there are some very bright people that attend this forum regularly, it is ashame that great minds are most often accompanied by big egos :D

Quote from: evolvingape on 2015-06-04, 17:35:40
The witch hunt exists only in your mind,

Yes, you are correct, as ALL Things exist in/and are product of the mind, the mind as such being embodiment of cognitive function which allows us to process sensory perceptions............

Quote from: evolvingape on 2015-06-04, 17:35:40
Les was invited to talk about this stuff (cos that's all he can do, talk) here and it was understood that he would not be postulating an impossibility without the proof to back it up. Les has broken that proffer and claimed he stated that very thing. So he has been challenged on it, ok.

I have not spoken for Les, and have only *reiterated some of the facts of the matter*. I am not responsible for Les's claims/actions and as such cannot be held accountable, so no need to ask my approval, OK?

Quote from: evolvingape on 2015-06-04, 17:35:40
Synthetic fuel ?
Yes, the N.A.S.A report dealt with the Methane Reformer process and a '69 Cadillac motor. But in the end it is still Hydrogen.

Quote from: evolvingape on 2015-06-04, 17:35:40
The studies are great thanks, nice to see you injecting some real educational material in your post.  O0
Glad to be of service......... ;)

take care, peace
lost_bro
   
img  evolvingape
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #426 on: 2015-06-04, 20:12:39 »

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Everyman decries immorality
Quote from: lost_bro on 2015-06-04, 18:47:59

I have not spoken for Les, and have only *reiterated some of the facts of the matter*. I am not responsible for Les's claims/actions and as such cannot be held accountable, so no need to ask my approval, OK?

I am not asking for your approval, nor do I need it. I was also reiterating some facts of the matter to which you were not aware, hence the imaginary witch hunt in your mind. Do try to keep up..


---------------------------
Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #427 on: 2015-06-04, 21:03:49 »
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Err... oh kay....

Meanwhile back at the ranch...

I've completed the PLL chip VCO section of the "nanopulser" circuit from the first page. Using the timing values given in the schematic, the frequency range is from about 2.4 kHz to about 271 kHz.  Since I don't have the magic SIT device I'm just relying on the mosfet itself. In order to attain a suitably narrow pulse width I had to change the C4 capacitor from the given value of 1 nF, down to 100 pF. This gives a minimum usable pulse width of about 120 ns, and a cutoff slope of under 6.5 ns. (Max pulse width is about 900 ns.)  This is into the small lightbulb load (GE CM161). I'm also using a 74c14 hex schmitt trigger inverter instead of the specified 4584. The circuit is now complete, except for the output transformer and the SIT device. And of course the electrolysis cell itself.

(I haven't yet connected the "gating" inverter gates of the 74c14, so I just connected the PLL chip's Inhibit pin 5 directly to the ground rail so the chip's output is always on.)
   
img  muDped
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #428 on: 2015-06-05, 06:00:52 »

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Nearly five years ago Grumpy provided a document
which explains how to generate nanosecond pulses
of considerable amplitude using high speed thyristors.

Excellent resource for study and application.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #429 on: 2015-06-05, 09:51:09 »
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Yes, that's interesting. There are lots of ways to get fast high-power pulses and it's nice to have that document as a reference. Unfortunately the document doesn't describe any circuits that are supposed to yield "8 times Faraday" electrolysis, like the circuit Banki posted on Page 1 of this thread.

   
img  muDped
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #430 on: 2015-06-05, 21:24:21 »

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There seem to be several ways of going about electrolysis
which will exceed "Faraday" levels of efficiency.

The nanoSecond pulsing method which Les brought to our
attention as described in the Journal of Applied Electrochemistry
is attached below.  The document does detail the specifics of
the unusual process.  The sharp pulse and the secondary
sustained current (inductive discharge) seem to be key.

Two other documents describing the high voltage Plasma method
are also attached.  
« Last Edit: 2015-06-05, 22:17:05 by muDped »


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For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #431 on: 2015-06-06, 01:24:03 »
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Well.... here's where I am "currently" at. The first shot below shows the various testpoint traces of the nanopulser circuit with just the small lightbulb as load. The second shot shows the same testpoints with a small pot-core transformer 10:30 turn ratio as load, with a 34 ohm resistive load on the secondary.

It's interesting to see the various delays introduced by the inverter and mosfet driver chips.

   
img  lost_bro
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #432 on: 2015-06-06, 02:24:13 »
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Quote from: muDped on 2015-06-05, 21:24:21
There seem to be several ways of going about electrolysis
which will exceed "Faraday" levels of efficiency.

The nanoSecond pulsing method which Les brought to our
attention as described in the Journal of Applied Electrochemistry
is attached below.  The document does detail the specifics of
the unusual process.  The sharp pulse and the secondary
sustained current (inductive discharge) seem to be key.

Two other documents describing the high voltage Plasma method
are also attached.  

Good Day muDped

"Continuous generation of hydrogen above levels predicted by Faraday’s law is observed when temperature, current density, input voltage and electrode surface meet certain conditions. Although only a few observations of excess hydrogen gas production have been made, production is sometimes 80 times higher than normal Faradic electrolysis gas production."

Well......... that takes the cake!  in excess of 80 Times Faraday electrolysis O0  and from another Scientific Journal study.

That's an order of Magnitude increase on Les's original claim :D


take care, peace
lost_bro
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #433 on: 2015-06-06, 03:06:43 »
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You need to understand scientific paper jargon. The phrase "Although only a few observations of excess hydrogen gas production have been made" translates to ordinary speech as "We saw a lot of gas once or twice."
And "production is sometimes 80 times higher than normal Faradic electrolysis gas production" translates to "those times we saw all that gas, somebody did some rough calculations and came up with an absurd value that sounds good enough to attract further funding and citations."

And the reason that those kinds of jargon phrases are made, is to secure further grant funding and get citations in the literature.


Meanwhile... I'm having fun playing with the scope and the nanopulser circuit. Now I've connected a probe across the 1-ohm Current Viewing Resistor that is in series with the 33 ohm Carbon resistor stack that is the load on the secondary of the little pot-core output transformer. Is it possible to have too much information? The first shot below is an "overview" and the second shot is a detail of the same thing at a faster timebase.
The DRN is the signal at the mosfet Drain, the VCO is the signal coming from the PLL chip before the pulse width RC network, the Gate signal is the signal from the TC4420 to the Gate of the mosfet , and the Iout is the current in the load.
   
img  muDped
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #434 on: 2015-06-06, 05:33:42 »

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Within the past 10 years or so a number of Experimenters
have attempted to unravel the mysteries of the Stan Meyer
circuitry and how it purportedly produced an exceedingly
efficient pulsed electrolysis response.

The most successful of those experimenters discovered
that placing an inductor or two in series with the electrolyzer
cell had a marked effect in increasing the gas production
and the efficiency.

Could it be that Stan Meyer's technique and the nanopulse
method have something in common?

The "secret" may be in the yet obscure essential properties
of the Pulse Transformer and/or Inductors.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  Matt Watts
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #435 on: 2015-06-06, 12:06:39 »
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Quote from: muDped on 2015-06-06, 05:33:42
The "secret" may be in the yet obscure essential properties
of the Pulse Transformer and/or Inductors.

The secret is to devise a set of components that simulate a water cell.
Then assemble two identical drive systems:  One for the simulated cell
and another for an actual cell.  Next we operate the two systems side-by-side
with parameters adjusted by a microcontroller coded with a genetic algorithm.
The goal of the genetic algorithm is to find and optimize any variances
between the two systems.

What I would expect to see is:  The simulated water cell deviates considerably
from the actual water cell, due to the behavior of the water molecules themselves.

This experiment would bring forth characteristics that assist our understanding
of how electrolysis really works and what parameters are critical in achieving an
ultimate solution.  As the behavior of the real water cell becomes better understood,
the simulated water cell could also be improved and the experiment run again.
I presume this is what has been referred to as the Scientific Method.   ;)
   
img  Paul-R
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #436 on: 2015-06-06, 12:42:35 »
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Quote from: muDped on 2015-06-06, 05:33:42
The most successful of those experimenters discovered
that placing an inductor or two in series with the electrolyzer
cell had a marked effect in increasing the gas production
and the efficiency.

Could it be that Stan Meyer's technique and the nanopulse
method have something in common?

I haven't been following this thread closely and so, hope this comment is not too irrelevant.

Don't forget Bob Boyce's remarkable work in Patrick's Chapter 10 and also John Worrel Keely's work at 42.8khz.
   
img  Marshallin
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #437 on: 2015-06-06, 16:42:33 »
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It would be nice to separate two things from this thread:

First is Les project what some of people trying to replicate, and already spend money for it. Give them some space to discuss it together without aggressive scepticism. This have nothing common with "nano-pulses" at all. Even through we all know that Les attitude is not helpfull at all, still hopefully his input may help people finish this project.

Second is that "nano-pusle" electrolysis attempt. All this papers presented have one common thing. They do not present complete information and correct measurement's.
For example : Amount of bubbles dosent mean anything. LPM is almost useless too without expensive gas analysis.

If we cannot objectively evaluate performace of electrolysis cell, there is not much point of trying to do fancy stuff. First step in long way, is creation of some cheap way how to correctly compare different cells or electrolysis methods.
   
img  poynt99
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #438 on: 2015-06-06, 17:30:04 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
 O0
   
img  muDped
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #439 on: 2015-06-06, 20:03:24 »

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Quote from: Marshallin
If we cannot objectively evaluate performace of electrolysis cell, there is not much point of trying to do fancy stuff. First step in long way, is creation of some cheap way how to correctly compare different cells or electrolysis methods.


Marshallin,

You make several good points.

Veteran Experimenters usually keep their initial efforts
small and inexpensive while trying to isolate the source
of potentially anomalous activity.  Then, as results show
promise, gradually increase the complexity towards the
best application of the revealed principles.

Diving into a "build" head first, without sufficient comprehension
of what is happening and why, with full scale "replication"
can be a very costly learning experience.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #440 on: 2015-06-06, 21:59:22 »
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That's right! Just ask any FTW QEG builder!
   
img  muDped
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #441 on: 2015-06-06, 23:26:37 »

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Posts: 3055
Perzactly!  With emphasis on "Builder."


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  Marshallin
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #442 on: 2015-06-09, 00:13:50 »
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Guys i think that main issue is here attitude and expectation. Lets keep it simple and ask simple question.

Can Les HHO engine project works?
Probably not. But if i think about it, I never saw any real replication of HHO based engine to prove otherwise. All replication made so far are really bad. You should be are encouraging and helpfull. Finally we have chance to close this eternal topic about HHO powered ICE.

I personally rebuilding one engine to gaseous fuel too (not directly HHO at the moment). Plan is make simple ECU from some of developer board(maybe based on fuzzy logic). If there ICE specialist any help or ideas are appreciated (PM me).

Can any type of pulse electrolysis create any overunity?
It is possible but Probably not. As far as we know only way how to get energy is with Fission or Fusion.

Then is that way worth of presuiting?
Actually our energy crysis didnt stand on fact that we are not able to create energy. Problem is that we are not able to store energy. Pulse electrolysis can role out some negative factors keeping us from using hydrogen like energy storage, mainly lower the cost and minimize of hydrogen production. Of course it would be nice to solve energy crysis, so we can finaly lead wars for something meaningfull :D

Like i wrote before measurement is important and it create line between science and pseudoscience.
With electrolysers, instead of measuring gas coming out, we can measure what is left affer reaction (amount of water left in tank).
Efficiency of different type of reaction can be measured by temperature. Simply most efficient electrolysis method will leave no waste heat - or create extrem amount of it.

My last two cents here guys. You can continue arguing :D
   
img  muDped
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #443 on: 2015-06-09, 04:14:22 »

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Quote from: Marshallin
Can Les HHO engine project works?
Probably not. But if i think about it, I never saw any real replication of HHO based engine to prove otherwise. All replication made so far are really bad. You should be are encouraging and helpfull. Finally we have chance to close this eternal topic about HHO powered ICE.

Those who are most successful are not eager to show
off their workmanship.

Quote from: Marshallin
Can any type of pulse electrolysis create any overunity?
It is possible but Probably not. As far as we know only way how to get energy is with Fission or Fusion.

Those who are most successful have devised systems
which produce pulses and a sustained low level of
decreasing current flow between pulses or, pulses
superimposed upon a low level of steady current flow.


Unless, of course, the system is a Plasma Electrolysis
System.

Quote from: Marshallin
My last two cents here guys. You can continue arguing :D

Arguments need not necessarily be violent or ugly as
most altercations tend to be.  Arguments should be
civil and respectful.  Your thoughts may be just as
important as any others in the ongoing discussion.
Join in whenever you feel the urge.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  verpies
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #444 on: 2015-06-09, 22:06:28 »

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Quote from: Matt Watts on 2015-06-04, 03:22:54
Cree makes some silicon carbide MOSFETs that have extremely fast rise/fall times, the only trouble is a handful of them cost more than your new scope.  Those devices however are about the only thing folks like us can get their hands on.
What's the part number of that MOSFET, you are referring to?
   
img  Matt Watts
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #445 on: 2015-06-09, 23:17:35 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2015-06-09, 22:06:28
What's the part number of that MOSFET, you are referring to?

See if this link works for you:
http://www.mouser.com/Cree-Inc/Semiconductors/Discrete-Semiconductors/Transistors/MOSFET/_/N-ax1sf?P=1yzs6io

If it doesn't, go to mouser and look at the Cree MOSFETs.  The one I bought for testing is the cheapest with part number:
C2M0280120D.

BTW, Good to see you back Verpies!

So my question is:  What's a suitable gate driver for something this fast?
   
img  lost_bro
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #446 on: 2015-06-10, 00:05:52 »
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Posts: 281
Good day Matt

Attached a handful of reference material in relation to your question regarding SiC gate drive circuits.
Some of the information directly from CREE points to IXYS and AVAGO technologies concerning gate drive components.

Guess it really depends on the application at hand but it seems that most manufactures are just starting to introduce components that can take advantage of the *potential* speed that a SiC device can deliver.  

Another outstanding issue is the recommended negative voltage component on the gate drive signal, this seems to be critical as the SiC fet can only withstand a max of 10v neg. on the C2M series.  That combined with the fact that the SiC requires a fast 20v pulse to take max advantage of it's capabilities rules out most of the *usual* mosfet gate drivers.

I still have a couple of CPWRAN10 driver units from CREE in the box, one day I will break'em out and put them to good use................
Attached a photo of my "SiC-Pack" , it's designed to switch *six* C2M0080120D SiC CREE mosfets in *series*, effectively making a 7.2kV switch.
It's combines both SMD and thru-hole components.  I opted for a ZETEX gate-drive product on this board.

Hope the information helps.

take care, peace
lost_bro
   
img  verpies
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #447 on: 2015-06-10, 00:54:20 »

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Quote from: Matt Watts on 2015-06-09, 23:17:35
So my question is:  What's a suitable gate driver for something this fast?
Note that this transistor has a huge 11.4Ω Internal Gate Resistance and 250pF Input Capacitance + Miller, which limits the gate charging rate when the +25V absolute maximum gate-source voltage is used to drive the gate.  With such gate drive voltage, the 2.8V VGS(th) should be reached within 12% of the RC constant.

There are some crazy engineers out there that drive gates with +300V using their own custom drivers in order to charge the gate-source capacitance very quickly.  With such gate drive voltage, the 2.8V VGS(th) is reached within 1% of the RC constant (which is 12x faster than with the +25V drive)   ...of course they must stop charging as soon as the gate-source capacitance reaches +20V because anything much above that risks puncturing the gate oxide layer.

As soon as the Miller plateau is overcome, the g-s voltage can be relaxed for the remainder of the "on" period, in anticipation for rapid turning off of the MOSFET, when the time comes (there is less gate charge to discharge then).
Turning off such MOSFET quickly, would require an application of a negative gate driving voltage in an analogous manner.

That technique relies on the expectation that the oxide layer is subject to the dielectric stress equal only to the voltage developed across it - not to the absolute voltage applied to the gate terminal.

Was it TinselKoala that experimented with this gate driving technique or Dave Jones?
« Last Edit: 2015-06-10, 02:37:05 by verpies »
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #448 on: 2015-06-10, 05:19:44 »
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Oh, I've done it once or twice.... not often on purpose though, and frequently with... er.... undesired results.
   
img  T-1000
Re: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply « Reply #449 on: 2015-06-10, 10:01:47 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2015-06-10, 00:54:20
There are some crazy engineers out there that drive gates with +300V using their own custom drivers in order to charge the gate-source capacitance very quickly.  With such gate drive voltage, the 2.8V VGS(th) is reached within 1% of the RC constant (which is 12x faster than with the +25V drive)   ...of course they must stop charging as soon as the gate-source capacitance reaches +20V because anything much above that risks puncturing the gate oxide layer.

Something like logical pulser circuit or MOSFET-based hgh-voltage nanosecond pulse circuit is applied to gate driving?
   
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