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Author Topic: Bi-toroid  (Read 129483 times)
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Grumppy:

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What is the equivalent of rotational inertia in an electrical circuit?

Using the same mathematical analogies between mechanical and electrical systems as previously discussed then charged capacitors or energized inductors can be considered equivalent to rotational inertia.

The rotational energy stored in a spinning disk is 1/2 M v-squared, where "M" is the moment of inertia and "v" is the angular velocity.

Look at the equivalent formulas for capacitors and inductors: 1/2 C v-squared and 1/2 L i-squared.

Both capacitors and inductors are capable of outputting extremely high levels of power for a short amount of time.  For a cap, you connect it to a low resistance, for a coil you connect it to a high resistance.

MileHigh
   

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Either something is missing, or Tesla's Magnifier did not magnify energy.   His Counsel asks if voltage, current, or both are increased and he replies "Yes". 

How did he magnify "energy"? 

Is there something in or around the coil that we are not aware of, that is increased when a coil is impulsed? 

Is there some way to cause self-induction to reverse and become additive? 

What mechanism of gain is at play here?
   
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Either something is missing, or Tesla's Magnifier did not magnify energy.   His Counsel asks if voltage, current, or both are increased and he replies "Yes".  

How did he magnify "energy"?  

I did read the interview that you posted and it's pretty clear to me Tesla was simply talking about an LC resonant system.  So the key thing to realize is that the term "magnify" was being loosely interpreted.  The more appropriate term would have been "accumulate" energy.  You somehow pulse energy into a giant LC resonator with a timed spark gap or something like that and voltage and current levels keep on increasing.

So in all likelihood there was no "energy magnification" going on at all in that particular experiment.

I can easily envision Tesla enthusiasts without a strong background in electronics reading that material and being utterly convinced that Tesla was talking about a free energy system that magnified energy in a literal sense.  That's really unfortunate.

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What mechanism of gain is at play here?
I'm batting for 'Negative Induction'  ;D
   

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What if there was a true magnification?  How might this be accomplished?

(Are familair with the events along a wire "before" electrons start to drift?)
   
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Look, all of the phrases hi-lighted telling you that Tesla is talking about working with a very large LC resonator that he is pulsing energy into.  It operates at a relatively low frequency and has very little internal resistance so that the voltages and currents can get very high as the energy gets accumulated:

Quote
This coil, which I have subsequently shown in my patents Nos. 645,576 and 649,621, in the form of a spiral, was, as you see, [earlier] in the form of a cone. The idea was to put the coil, with reference to the primary, in an inductive connection which was not close -- we call it now a loose coupling -- but free to permit a great resonant rise. That was the first single step, as I say, toward the evolution of an invention which I have called my "magnifying transmitter." That means, a circuit connected to ground and to the antenna, of a tremendous electromagnetic momentum and small damping factor, with all the conditions so determined that an immense accumulation of electrical energy can take place.

Counsel

Mr. Tesla, at that point, what did you mean by electro-magnetic momentum?

Tesla

I mean that you have to have in the circuit, inertia. You have to have a large self-inductance in order that you may accomplish two things: First, a comparatively low frequency, which will reduce the radiation of the electromagnetic waves to a comparatively small value, and second, a great resonant effect. That is not possible in an antenna, for instance, of large capacity and small self-inductance. A large capacity and small self-inductance is the poorest kind of circuit which can be constructed; it gives a very small resonant effect. That was the reason why in my experiments in Colorado the energies were 1,000 times greater than in the present antennae.

Counsel

You say the energy was 1,000 times greater. Do you mean that the voltage was increased, or the current, or both?

Tesla

Yes [both]. To be more explicit, I take a very large self-inductance and a comparatively small capacity, which I have constructed in a certain way so that the electricity cannot leak out. I thus obtain a low frequency; but, as you know, the electromagnetic radiation is proportionate to the square root of the capacity divided by the self-induction. I do not permit the energy to go out; I accumulate in that circuit a tremendous energy. When the high potential is attained, if I want to give off electromagnetic waves, I do so, but I prefer to reduce those waves in quantity and pass a current into the earth, because electromagnetic wave energy is not recoverable while that [earth] current is entirely recoverable, being the energy stored in an elastic system.

Counsel

What elastic system do you refer to?

Tesla

I mean this: If you pass a current into a circuit with large self-induction, and no radiation takes place, and you have a low resistance, there is no possibility of this energy getting out into space; therefore, the impressed impulses accumulate.

Peterae:

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I'm batting for 'Negative Induction'

I am not sure if you are serious or not and I am not a Tesla expert.  Did he play with tubes a lot?  Negative induction is a theoretical concept that exists on paper.  It can only be done in real life with an active circuit that consumes power and uses that power to create what looks like a negative inductance across two nodes in a circuit.

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MH

I know from pulsing my own coils with HV impulses of a few ns that very little conduction current in delivered to the coil and the capacitance of the coil is extremely low.  Granted Tesla used a ground plate and raised terminal to form a capacitor, the capacitance is not that high with so great a distance with a dielectric that is mostly air.  Also, Tesla talks of using [earth] currents and not electromagnetic waves and speaks of specifically not using EM waves as all the energy is lost with them.  Tesla is not charging a battery or capacitor that would hold the charge.  The energy is only present while the system is operating, like some sort of kinetic energy. 

Sorry, I do not buy the LC resonance explanation.

   
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Grumpy:

We will agree to disagree about the LC resonator.  Since Tesla states it works at a low frequency you need a significantly-sized cap and coil to get low frequencies.

When the LC resonator is at it's peak voltage, you can short out the cap and get massive power output with super-high currents.  Alternatively when the LC resonator is at it's peak current, you can open-circuit the inductor and get massive power output with super-high voltages.

I can only guess that that's the kind of experimenting that Tesla was doing with his large LC resonator, assuming it was indeed a large LC resonator.

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Here is a paper that I ran across a long time ago that discusses how "current" diffuses slowly into conductors and that transmission via copper could not occur without displacement current.

http://espace.library.uq.edu.au/eserv/UQ:9792/saha-edwards-aup.pdf

I agree about inductors and caps, but Tesla was getting a magnification of 1000 or more.
   

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The following is tounge in cheak and may be wrong:

What I'm getting at is that there is an aether flow along a conductor when it is first connected to a power supply.  This aether flow is what causes electrons to flow, by dragging them along, per se.  Tesla was working with this aether flow and found he could build it up to high levels.  Aether flows through everything, and by altering this flow of aether, Tesla increased the energy in his magnifying coil.
   
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It's turtles all the way down

For your comments about the TPU:  It is pretty simple, you are describing basic magnetic induction principles.  A transformer is a classic example of this.  So I am going to suggest to you that the challenge for any TPU builder is twofold.  They need to make measurements on power out vs. power in and demonstrate over unity. Then they should try to reverse-engineer the device with timing diagrams and various measurements and explanations to explain how the device works.  This will be a tall challenge because everything we know about magnetic induction says that it is an under unity process obeying the law of conservation of energy.

MileHigh

Sorry for bringing this into the fray at this time, but the first point you make in bold above is simply not possible as no one has a device

And as you might expect the second point is also not possible as no one has even the faintest clue how such a device could work.

So we are left with an enigma. Because of your last statement, we are left with just a few choices.

1) agree that the unit was a fake, powered by hidden batteries (end of story)

2) agree that we have already discovered all the possible means of enticing a current to flow in a conductor, we need look no further. (end of story)

3)  agree that standard induction will never yield OU so give up on that method (end of that story)

4) try to come up with a different approach of enticing a current to flow in a conductor

5) try to engage the very best minds to discuss how a different method might be possible, research some possibilities of methods that do not use standard induction principles.

 Those who understand that it will not be done by standard induction have a greater chance of discovering something unique as opposed to the Thane's of the world that get deeply lost in the "standard induction forest" because of their lack of understanding of those principles.

 In other words, it is incumbent upon those well versed in standard magnetic principles to make the required leap into the world of undiscovered possibilities.

I totally disagree with others on the forum that express a disdain for the educated electromagnetic engineer. Their belief is that someone traditionally educated will never find something new.

I watch some of these folks totally lost in the world of standard induction, only deluding themselves that they have something new, because they lacked the experience that would show them otherwise.

So unfortunately, we don't have a TPU to work on or make those measurements, we are all mostly lost in the forest of standard induction. Your twofold challenge cannot be taken at this time.

We do have an enigma, worthy of study even if from a distance. There is much to learn. I encourage you to read the DR. Schinzingers tests reports and find how deep the rabbit hole goes.



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The following is tounge in cheak and may be wrong:

What I'm getting at is that there is an aether flow along a conductor when it is first connected to a power supply.  This aether flow is what causes electrons to flow, by dragging them along, per se.  Tesla was working with this aether flow and found he could build it up to high levels.  Aether flows through everything, and by altering this flow of aether, Tesla increased the energy in his magnifying coil.

That would be the electric field flowing along inside the conductor.  That causes the electrons to flow.  The gradient of the electric field is the electric field intensity.  So in a wire with moderate current flow the electric field is very weak and there is almost no voltage drop.  So the voltage drop and the electric field intensity are related.  Then the current flows through a resistor and the electric field is very strong and is doing the work of pushing the electrons through the resistance.  Inside the resistance is where the main voltage drop happens.

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Ion:

I can't disagree with you that you have to somehow both think outside of the box and be outside of the box, and also produce results.

You never know, there may be someone out there that has all of their ducks lined up in a row!

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That would be the electric field flowing along inside the conductor.  That causes the electrons to flow.  The gradient of the electric field is the electric field intensity.  So in a wire with moderate current flow the electric field is very weak and there is almost no voltage drop.  So the voltage drop and the electric field intensity are related.  Then the current flows through a resistor and the electric field is very strong and is doing the work of pushing the electrons through the resistance.  Inside the resistance is where the main voltage drop happens.

MileHigh

An electric field is just a divergence of the aether currents.

I am referring the instant in time before the universe knows this is an electrical circuit.  First there is the aether flow from each end of the circuit.  Note that these are not opposing flows but opposite direction of propagation.  So, they do not cancel but meet and then conduction current flows in the opposite direction of the aether flow.  This aether flow is a circulating flow that is perpendicular to the conductor, it rolls into and back out of the side of the conductor, like a homogeneous set of rolling gears along the conductor.


4) try to come up with a different approach of enticing a current to flow in a conductor

5) try to engage the very best minds to discuss how a different method might be possible, research some possibilities of methods that do not use standard induction principles.

Those who understand that it will not be done by standard induction have a greater chance of discovering something unique as opposed to the Thane's of the world that get deeply lost in the "standard induction forest" because of their lack of understanding of those principles.

In other words, it is incumbent upon those well versed in standard magnetic principles to make the required leap into the world of undiscovered possibilities.


SM stated toward the end of the UEC video that the TPU utilizes another form of induction, another way to make electrons flow to produce electrical current.

   

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The TPU is based on complex interactions of the fields not conduction or induction. The TPU is a 3 layer (virtual) Tesla coil that produces controlled interactions in the fields and on the conductors. A good example is Hutchison using 2 Tesla coils and a transducer. The TPU is a device that produces a minor Hutchison effect. The matter is not altered but the field is. That action is then read by the conductors. The process is like looking at a Teseract. This explanation includes many layers that are never taken as a group or inclusive. The reason why no one has a TPU is because no ones sees farther out than than their limits. No derogation intended. I have yet to hear any explanations to the level of Aspden, who in my opinion has the deep view to the process. Bib De Has has this view also. All the OU devices have sparkgaps or high speed eclipsing of fields. To this day I have seen no other type of process. Why do you think Spherics put the atom bomb detonation picture and a detailed field arrangement in his document? Why do you think he mentioned the GK4 test explicitly? My tests revealed the uncontrolled complexity, like the randomnous of Hutchison. Spherics pointed this out because he wanted all of us to take it up a notch into field control or bending. I could go deeper with with this but I will suffice to say that once the coils are wound and driven then in order to get the OU return ones seeks the next tests are very dangerous, as SM mentioned. And that is where my bigger tests stopped and I went into smaller tests to chop this process up as small as possible to try to garner the insight to a harmonic process and not play with noise. Why do you think I am getting the metal extracted from my body? BS? Think what you want. I choose not to curse the darkness. My experiences have taken me past the standard into the next order of business of this configuration. We all know enough to make the next step and we have seen all the pieces it takes. I am talking about the last configuration. How else can you take a pound of copper and make it vibrate with a 9volt battery?


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Giantkiller:

I mentioned once that some people speak in a language that I can't understand and you are one of them.  Please don't take offense.  The only way to find common ground is to look at results.  If you have results to report perhaps you can share them with us or make some YouTube clips one day.

Keep in mind that if for example you make a clip that claims over unity, that you can expect some scrutiny from people including myself.  Your measurement techniques will be questioned and people will want to see your data and so on.

I also stated that I think Hutchison is a con artist and I will assume that you disagree.  He has no credibility as far as I am concerned and if you do enough digging online about him you will find references to him faking some of his clips.  I know that you can attribute that to the "MIB" if you choose to.

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First of all please do not send me any more PM's of the nature you sent me. It is insulting. You think OU research just relies on EE. You are wrong. You can play with your ideal coil and spring all year long, it will not teach you anything. In the shout out I asked you a few questions but you could not answer them and quickly changed subjects. Good move. But stories of ideal coils are supposed to support some concrete idea, then you are riding a double standard here. You can analogize of ideal coils and we are supposed to take it to the bank, while nothing in OU can be considered half seriously. Just write it all off as standard EE. Sorry but I do not buy it. Now instead of demeaning me in PM's, just write what you want in the open threads.

Now, if you are really serious of bringing this discussion forward, then answer my six simple questions and then I will ask you some more. Better still forget it. I will remove them from here and ask them on OU.com. I know some EEers extremely forthcoming and are not all bent up on sounding like a broken record. Sorry, but your PM really ticked me off and I realize now that talking with you is totally useless. You do not want to hear what makes us tick here. You just want to hear yourself talk and talk about the same old same old. Bravo, chock one up for progress. 


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Wattsup:

I suggested that you try to learn the basics about electronics so that you could get more out of what you are doing as a private message.  Why would you state this publicly?  You shouldn't be insulted when someone tries to give you sound advice privately and your posting about my PM is inappropriate.

I can't remember your shout-out questions.  Post them if you want.

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I too recieved a PM calling me just about every foul name under the sun, maybe we are asking the wrong questions. In my personal opinion if the discussion is not related to obtaining free energy then it is pointless and has no place in this forum, that however is just my opinion.
Regards
AC


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@Grumpy
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How did he magnify "energy"?

Is there something in or around the coil that we are not aware of, that is increased when a coil is impulsed?

Is there some way to cause self-induction to reverse and become additive?

What mechanism of gain is at play here?

I think these are the right questions everyone should be asking, as well where is the dicussion of the Bi-toroid? This is the Bi-toroid thread in a Free Energy forum but I have heard no discussion whatsoever on the Bi-Toroid nor how to obtain free energy, I personally find this very odd.

Quote
How did he magnify the Energy?
We know LC resonance is what it is, we know an induced current will produce a magnetic field which will oppose the magnetic field which induced it so why induce a current?

Quote
Is there something in or around the coil that we are not aware of, that is increased when a coil is impulsed?
I have found that any amount of electrical energy can be induced and stored in a radial electric field between coil windings just as if the wires were plates of a capacitor. The radial electric field gradient then evolves at 90 degrees to the conductor and does not "flow" in the conductor thus no current evolves, which means no induced magnetic field and no opposition to the source which induced it. In this respect we can store energy for a given time and release it as an electric current to oppose the source at a later time. Thane has stated this is exactly what he has been doing all along and he learned this trick from the works of one Nikola Tesla as I have.

Quote
Is there some way to cause self-induction to reverse and become additive?
I will have to think about this question a little more, that is a very good question  ;)

Quote
What mechanism of gain is at play here?
If we can induce a great amount of electric energy in an "electric field" and store it without opposing the source which induced it then no work is required by the source. If we discharge this electric energy stored in the electric field at a later point in time as an electric current then this current can oppose the source which initially induced it. An approaching magnetic field will see no opposition while inducing an electric field but will be repelled when the electric field is discharged as a current, this is what Thane is doing. No induced current flow or opposition on approach of a magnetic field and a discharging current to repel the magnetic field as it leaves --- a gain, now Thane is trying to apply this process to a motionless generator ---- The Bi-Toroid.
This will be my last post for a while, Im going to take a break and concentrate on some major builds I have in mind, to be honest the forums just do not have the same appeal they once had. I think they have strayed from there purpose, not to endlessly debate points but to also make tangible progress which just is not happening in my opinion, you guys have a good one.

Regards
AC
« Last Edit: 2010-11-17, 17:52:39 by allcanadian »


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@wattsup
I too recieved a PM calling me just about every foul name under the sun, maybe we are asking the wrong questions. In my personal opinion if the discussion is not related to obtaining free energy then it is pointless and has no place in this forum, that however is just my opinion.
Regards
AC

Indeed you did.  That's because for the past three months you have been harassing me.  First it was with the use of passive English in almost every reply made to me implying that I was stupid.  Then you switched tactics to making rebuttals to my technical postings that were completely out of context and made no sense.  When you posted that you were going to continually pursue and harass me in this way you got a piece of my mind.  Subsequent to that you stated that you were going to ignore my postings and that's how I would like it to be.  Please keep your word and don't reply to my postings.

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Agree to disagree.
These kinds of diatribes make the human race look like waring ants. No wonder we still pound ground, pound fists, pound knowledge yet produce nothing!
Go ahead and waste precious time gripping your unworthy possession of self righteousness.
It is obvious who can't grasp the boundary leap it takes to see what SM has done. Same group of minds that couldn't understand Tesla.
When you have a huge magnetic field from resonance you can store energy in it at differing rates. This variable pressure can be used in ways status quo can not understand let alone can learn.
Tesla stated 'With the correct frequency I can split the planet'. All else is cake.

If you were to take the tests I showed on youtube and raised the mass and/or power, you too could break your house. That is what Hutchison shows. And what about fraud? Plz splain me dis crazy metal he has? He wretched solid matter. Has anyone felt that warm fuzzy wave go through their head when powering certain combinations? Many OU oldheads testified to me how close I am. How about in it?

I give story:
I have 'Mighty little' hanging from my mirror in my truck. Fellow employees have asked what it does. I explain. They all say 'Hmmm'. Then next question is how so then?'. I state 'Your reality is based on moving electrons. It is called current. But the TPU commits kinetic action through resonance.' They reply 'When will we see this used in every day places? I say 'fluorescence lighting, nuclear detonation, rogue waves, ultrasound dental cleaning'. The power is awesome. And from what?

Imagine what Keely saw when he was pumping the pipes in that huge resonant chamber called the church.



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Giantkiller:

What's your YouTube channel?  Just curious, are you working on an over unity demo for sometime in the future?

For Hutchison pieces that show two solid objects merged together, they could simply be props.  I have seen the pictures and clips and they look convincing.  However, if you go to Hollywood you can find people that work in the film industry that specialize in this kind of thing.  For the right price, they will make any kind of sci-fi-looking prop you want.

As far as the TPU and related devices go, if they do one day make the transition from mysterious video clips that you see on YouTube to real tangible devices that can be manufactured, then the world will change and it will be the dawn of the Age of Aquarius like I just said in another posting.  In that vein I sometimes check in on MagnaCoaster and Steorn with their SS Orbo.  There is still nothing tangible from those two groups.

Believe me, I will be ecstatic if free energy becomes a reality.  In short order there will no longer be any need to fight wars and famine could be wiped out and the deserts made green.

MileHigh

   
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Giantkiller:

As far as the TPU and related devices go, if they do one day make the transition from mysterious video clips that you see on YouTube to real tangible devices that can be manufactured, then the world will change and it will be the dawn of the Age of Aquarius like I just said in another posting.  In that vein I sometimes check in on MagnaCoaster and Steorn with their SS Orbo.  There is still nothing tangible from those two groups.

Believe me, I will be ecstatic if free energy becomes a reality.  In short order there will no longer be any need to fight wars and famine could be wiped out and the deserts made green.

MileHigh


I will reiterate that the TPU is in a class of it's own, there are no related devices. Forget Steorn, Orbo, Magnacoaster.

Problem is the well has been so poisoned, it is extremely difficult to separate the truth nuggets from all the hoax video's that have been posted claiming to be working TPU's or works in progress by other builders.

Your keen detective and analytical skills would be much appreciated in dissecting the original SM offerings. I am somewhat disappointed that you will not go there or will only give an offhand cursory analysis, somewhat lacking the depth of study you have given to present day scammers, which are far more unworthy of your efforts.

I have to somewhat disagree with your last statement. It is my belief that if FE becomes a reality, it will lead to an even more wasteful society than what we now have. Perhaps if it is already known and kept secret, it is because we have not evolved enough to use it wisely, as well as economic reasons and for control of the "beehive"

But for the most part, we agree.


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