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Author Topic: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil.  (Read 58678 times)
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It's turtles all the way down
From Peter

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I need a new scope really

Your need will be addressed by the community soon.

Peter, you have been generous in funding this site for many years without any help that I know of, now it is time for the community to give back to you.

P-Prof, and Chet.....if you agree, lets start beating the bushes. If 25% of the membership that use this site gives $10 to $20 it should easily cover a new scope for Peter.

I can think of no more deserving  recipient than Peter. In addition to funding and maintaining this site, his experiments are predominately in line with the OUR mission statement, i.e the quest for OU. There is no advertising on this site and Peter has stated that there never will be.

Peter, do you have a Paypal account that we can make a direct deposit?

Regards
ION
« Last Edit: 2015-02-26, 15:59:46 by ION »


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  Great idea!  count me in for $50 for a scope for Peter!
--Steve

PS - I'm going with visiting family today... back later
   

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Thanks for your offer ION & PhysicsProf, It makes it worth while running the site with such good members like yourselves making use of it for research, still no need for donations though, although i am thinking if i send someone in the US the money and P&P money maybe someone could post it on to me.

Smudge
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(ignoring your 74.23 COP which is a math error  Roll Eyes )
Oops yes i got the decimal place in the wrong place 0.7423 will go back and edit that in the original post. Thanks  :-[

I'm not convinced about the earth problem because i tried several methods of obtaining the measurements, one being to use the Sig Gen earth as the scope earth point, then measure LCV and then Across Sig gen input, using a calculator to subtract LCV from Sig Gen gave me my Current I.

If i do this from now on then i don't think there can be any problem, just means i have more number crunching to do, i will try knocking up a spreadsheet to do the hard work.  O0
   
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Peter
Please let us do this for you...

I just hung up with the Vendor and they are sold out until later in March
also discussed shipping [no problem]

perhaps a little more discussion this weekend...?



   

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I have another problem with the Owon scope it has pulsed noise on lower sensitivity, looks like switched supply noise, maybe some caps drying out.

So back to using the hantek.

So tonight i re did all the tests but this time at 100khz intervals.
This time i used the 2 Chanel's to match the current and voltage phases, and once that alignment was done, i then used just 1 channel to get each value to reduce any chance of a second Chanel causing inaccuracy's.

I also used the pk-pk voltage, all measurements were take with respect to the Sig gen ground, so i had to subtract LCv from the Current waveform to isolate just current, i converted pk-pk to amplitude (/2) i then multiplied by 0.7071 to get Rms and worked my Pin, Pout & COP from there.

I employed the use of a spread sheet to do all the maths  :)

Load=516 Ohm
NIR=10 Ohm

The only problem i can see here is that because i am only using 1 probe to measure each parameter i am hoping that the phase did not shift when i removed the 2 back to back probes during inital phase alignment.

I'm still getting high value COPs are they too good to be true.

Something i am unable to get my head round, i must be dissipating energy in my NIR

If i take 400KHz for example then my voltage across NIR 10 Ohm is 3.27-1.96 = 1.31/2 =0.655 * 0.7071 =0.4631505 Vrms
P=V^2/R P=21.45mW

So if i have this correct and i am dissipating 21.45mW in my NIR then how can i have a Pout of 31.48mW & a Pin of 32mW?

Something is very wrong here somewhere  :D
« Last Edit: 2015-02-26, 21:58:25 by Peterae »
   
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The subtraction that means you get just the voltage across the LC and not across R means that your input power calculation V*I does not include the power dissipated in R.  If you are doing anything different to that with your subtraction then please let us know.

Those high COP values seem good to me when you consider your transformer is unusual in having bucking coils.  And you have many more parameters to look at in fine detail like optimum load, optimum turns and turns ratio, wire gauge, litz wire and so on.  Not to mention waving a PM around near the core (but don't do that yet, we don't want the core to get any magnetization that changes everything for ever).  If any of those yield COP improvements it bodes well for going OU.

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The subtraction that means you get just the voltage across the LC and not across R means that your input power calculation V*I does not include the power dissipated in R.  If you are doing anything different to that with your subtraction then please let us know.

I am measuring the pk-pk waveform across the LC and then measuring the pk-pk waveform across LCR and then subtracting LC from LCR to get just NIR waveform pk-pk value.

The waveform across LCR is the same as measuring the waveform across the Sig Gen.

I then make sure i have the Amplitude or pk-pk/2 and then multiplying by 0.7071 to get my Rms value for current and voltage, i then multiply the LCVrms * Irms to get Pin
« Last Edit: 2015-02-27, 19:44:32 by Peterae »
   

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It did not like a 10 Ohm Load
   
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Peter,

Now that you are using a larger value NIR for your current monitor why not use this as the load and forget about transformer action.  Just use the device as a pair of bucking coils.  Then you don't need the subtraction.  Your voltage across the NIR indicates the output power (dissipated in the NIR) while your voltage across the series LCR indicates the input power.  Since the current is the same the ratio of those two voltages is the COP.  It would be obvious if the L was creating some negative resistance because the input voltage (across LCR) would then be smaller than the output voltage (across R).

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Hi Smudge
Just trying to clarify see diagram.

It certainly would save a lot of measuring and time.

Thanks
Peter
PS sorry about drawing it upside down, short of time right now  O0
   
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Hi Peter,

That looks OK even though it is upside down.  Hope it doesn't give you upside down waveforms ;)

Smudge
   

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LOL  O0

Not had much time last couple of days but have week off work next week  O0

I keep hovering over the buy button on this scope, It's a bit cheaper in Germany but sill have VAT @ 20% Grrrr
http://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Rigol-DS1074Z-S-Digital-Oscilloscope-p/ds1074z-s.htm
   

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Well i finally found the courage to press the buy button so i now have a nice 4 channel scope on the way and it has 2 * 25MHz dds multi function generators built in as well  ???
   

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The Scope works well  :)
Yellow=LCR
Cyan=LC
Purple=L

Problem is that at resonance LC is virtually zero and whats left is adjusted to be in phase with LCR and because of this i fail to see how the voltage across R will ever be larger than LCR or Sig gen.

What am i doing wrong?

R=516 Ohms.

The Sig gen is a DDS built into the scope  O0
   
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Peter,

You are not doing anything wrong, you would expect the voltage across R to be almost equal to that across LCR or sig gen.  But if LC has some induced negative R then the voltage across R will slightly exceed that applied across LCR, and that is what you are looking for.  But don't expect it to appear without some trial and error work.  What you should do is find the conditions that maximises the voltage across R for a given input across LCR which you do by calculating COP each time.  When you get to the optimum COP near unity then you can estimate the losses in L, C and coil R to see whether there is any real OU present.  If so you look towards reducing those losses to see if you can get COP>1.  If that proves impossible there is still the possibility of deliberately increasing the time delay through the core by adding intermediate coils and capacitors to create something approaching a lumped constant a magnetic delay line.

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Hi Smudge
Thanks for clarifying things, i could do with a resistance box to switch different NIR values in place but instead i will use a 25 turn 5K pot, each time turning to a LCR measured value, should be easier than having a bunch of odd value resistors loose on the bench.

Does not look as if i can get 700KHz working, same problem as before, Inductor capacitance, thus with a really small value C it's hard to adjust it.
Cheers
Peter
   

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Wow that was easy, set the pot in 100 Ohm steps from 100R to 2000R took a scope shot each time.
This is for 600KHz will process the data and append when i get a chance.
yellow=LCR, Cyan=LC, Purple=L, Blue=Yellow-Cyan or LCR-LC=R

I did get a bit of drift on the pot which was not ideal and it varied, could do with precision resistors really  :-\

EDIT OK uploaded spreadsheet with COP & data Table
« Last Edit: 2015-03-08, 21:15:42 by Peterae »
   
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> If that proves impossible there is still the possibility of deliberately increasing the time delay through the core by adding intermediate coils and capacitors to create something approaching a lumped constant a magnetic delay line.
Smudge

Hi Smudge,

Yes, actually when I first saw this thread, I thought it was going to be a discussion of using these capacitance- loaded shorted coils.  These coils would actually make the device a magneto-electric delay line as shown in your paper. I encourage you and Peterae to try this at some point-- I have a hunch. There are several types of negative resistance, and this type with the coils bucking the input flux but with a delay, has an element of partial superposition that hints of overunity to me.

Smudge, when you refer to negative resistance in the thread title, are you referring to NR in the 1st and 3rd quadrants, or in the 2nd and 4th 'active power' quadrants? There are plenty of delay devices in all realms which get NR in the 1st and 3rd.
Such a device does not need to consume power, as you no doubt know, but also does not deliver excess power, as you hope to do.
There is some confusion about this matter in free energy discussions. I'm going to be talking about the seemingly conventional 1st and 3rd quadrant in my adiabatic thread, so I would like clarify things a bit.. if that hasn't been done already, somewhere that I missed. 

orthofield


   
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Smudge, when you refer to negative resistance in the thread title, are you referring to NR in the 1st and 3rd quadrants, or in the 2nd and 4th 'active power' quadrants? There are plenty of delay devices in all realms which get NR in the 1st and 3rd.
Such a device does not need to consume power, as you no doubt know, but also does not deliver excess power, as you hope to do.
There is some confusion about this matter in free energy discussions. I'm going to be talking about the seemingly conventional 1st and 3rd quadrant in my adiabatic thread, so I would like clarify things a bit.. if that hasn't been done already, somewhere that I missed. 

orthofield

I am talking about true negative resistance whose VI slope passes through the origin hence it exists in 2nd and 4th quadrants.  I think the question "where does the energy come from?" is answered when you consider a very fast pulse.  Initially electrical energy is converted into magnetic energy within the core halves before the wavefronts from the two coils overlap.  The high mu of the material ensures that the aligned atomic dipoles supply considerably more energy to the air space between atoms than you actually put in.  When the wavefronts overlap you get cancellation and that excess energy has to go somewhere.  As in standing waves caused by waves moving in opposite directions the magnetic energy lost where there is a magnetic null appears as electric energy at the electric peak.  So it seems reasonable that we should see some electrical energy returned from that otherwise hidden energy in the air space within the core.

Smudge
   

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I have always suspected there was a shorted turn in the TPU's for 2 reasons, the open TPU looks like it has a shorted turn at the end of each visible winding and also electrostatic speakers were mentioned as a possible cue for SM finding the effect he needed to get the devices working and when i investigated the circuit for the electrostatic speakers there were shorted turn delays built into the speaker system.
   

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When winding 1 shorted turn on the core, there is very little change, i can still achieve resonance and get near unity, i will run the tests i did before at 600KHz and vary the resistance and post the data for comparison, although in the last test it looks like my phase drifted off a little.
   
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Peter,

Been looking at your recent 600KHz results.  I have calculated the (low value) input resistance of the series L and C (at resonance) and it is about 44 ohms.  It jumps about a bit, see the attached chart.  I think it can be assumed that this loss resistance is mostly in the L and not in the C, and is a combination of coil and core losses.  I have looked back to see what your bucking L is and I can't find a result.  I found your primary bucking L as 15uH, and assuming a 6T primary and a 36T secondary I calculate your bucking secondaries to be about 540uH.  Perhaps you can confirm this and that you were using the 36T bucking secondaries in your measurements.  If so you might find this interesting.

At 600KHz the 3C90 complex mu data has us' of about 2500 and us" of about 150.  The sub s indicates series values (parallel values are different) and it is the effective series loss resistance that we are interested in.  The us' determines series inductance and the us" determines series loss resistance.  At 600KHz the reactance of a 540uH inductor is 2035 ohms.  To get the series loss resistor representing core losses you have to divide that reactance by us' and multiply it by us".  So the expected value is 122 ohms.  When compared to the measured value of 44 ohms that could indicate the presence of some induced negative resistance.  But this is all rather tentative at this stage.

Edit. Darnation, forgot to add the image.

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Hi Smudge
Data is here for the 32Turns but i cannot remember if i posted the bucking details, i will re test this tomorrow.
LCR Test @ 10KHz
L = 4.366mH
Z = 274.41 Ohm
R = 0.785 Ohm
Q = 35
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2773.msg45915#msg45915

Innacuracies in the data does not surprise me, i am getting load resistor drift and phase shift drift.
   

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The bucking config parameters are
LCR@10KHz
380uh
R=0.32 Ohms
Q=74.5
Z=23.93 Ohms
   

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OK results for 500 KHz
I will process the data and add that later, there's a lot of noise across the LC, i guess this is because such a low value cap is used, i have a 20-500pf variable cap in my cap box, all switchable caps are off and am using the variable to bring into resonance, i am also using flying leads to the cap box.

Again i was getting load resistance pot drifting.
Each scope shot represents a 100 Ohm increase, i went upto 1K5 this time hence scope shot 15

EDIT added the data, quiet interesting as the cop falls off and comes back.
« Last Edit: 2015-03-12, 20:18:25 by Peterae »
   
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