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most people are unaware(I was) that the us backed a coup there in 2014 backing actual neo nazis.

Where is the evidence for this?
« Last Edit: 2022-03-03, 23:59:55 by Paul-R »
   

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most people are unaware(I was) that the us backed a coup there in 2014 backing actual neo nazis. 1st casualty of war is truth. I do not know enough about the conflict to pick a side but my tv watching mates think they do, yet they don’t know about the coup. Conditioning is amazing

That IS totally false, you need to look at the history of Ukraine before making a statement like that, I have some Ukrainian friends who can tell you the real story, look up how Ukraine became an independent democratic country from Russia.

Putin is a dictator who has gone totally insane, he wants to take back all the independent countries that were once part of the Soviet Union, which does not exist anymore, read up on your Russian history as well. Ukraine has been wanting to join the European Union, which automatically would make Ukraine part of the Atlantic alliance, NATO.

There are many false people writing and talking a lot of false rubbish, it's a very sad world we live in atm.



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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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These socialists from 2014 disagree with you https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2014-coup-ukraine
   
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JR Nyquist’s latest.  I don’t know of many analysts who know Russia’s leadership better than Nyquist.
J.R. Nyquist Blog - https://jrnyquist.blog/

I would touch on a few key points...
1)No military deploys that much fire power to intimidate and Russia had every intention of invading Ukraine and possibly Europe from the start.

2)The western threat is a common theme globally which translates to "they are afraid of the future".
Society and technology is changing at the speed of light and many countries completely dependent on fossil fuel
revenue understand there in big trouble. Russia quite literally has no tech sector to fall back on and once oil goes they
would only have farming, heavy industry and weapons. Western farming and heavy machinery will be fully autonomous within
a decade thus Russia would be reduced to an agrarian state dealing with global warming and drought.

3)At this point Russia has nothing to lose because there finished either way.
To be cornered with very few options is a very dangerous position to be in.

There is one common theme which applies universally to what were seeing globally...
The younger generation under 30 want to move forward to become a technologically advanced society.
The older generation over 50 want to move backwards to the way things were.
We cannot do both and something has to give...

Regards
AC








 


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These socialists from 2014 disagree with you https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2014-coup-ukraine

Come on Jim I thought better of you, this is a Russian backed web site set up to try and make Putin a socialist, which he is far from, he is a dictator, extream right. Hitler did the same, pronounced he was for the people, a socialist, how far from the truth can you get.

If you want to be a socialist, not extream left which is comunist, you do not dictate and accumulate billions in personal wealth like Putin along with his mafia friends.

Could write more but typing from my phone.


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Buy me a beer


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Come on Jim I thought better of you, this is a Russian backed web site set up to try and make Putin a socialist, which he is far from, he is a dictator, extream right. Hitler did the same, pronounced he was for the people, a socialist, how far from the truth can you get.

If you want to be a socialist, not extream left which is comunist, you do not dictate and accumulate billions in personal wealth like Putin along with his mafia friends.

Could write more but typing from my phone.
you thought better of me? Sorry I can’t support nazis. https://youtu.be/KfaAyiP8Wuc The leader of c14 in his own words.
   
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...Sorry I can’t support nazis...

That's easy to say.  But consider this...

Your government has become corrupt financially and oppressive to its people, and then, your president ignores the will of the people and the vote of its parliament and decides all on his own to align with Russia instead of the EU (search Euromaidan and the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement).  You, mere citizens, not in control of the military or the police, decide to protest and ultimately revolt and throw that president out of office.  Just as you likely would in Australia, you would welcome the assistance of your fringe neo-nazi movement, because they have weapons and the desire to fight (see Azov Batallion, a group of around a thousand militants in a population of 40 million at the time).  As they say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend...

With the help of this small group, you are successful in overthrowing your government and ousting the corrupt president.  Russia invades in the East, so you send that same group (Azov Battalion) to fight in the east.  And yes, there are all kinds of reported human rights violations due to this group as they slog it out with the Russian invaders, but again, a blind eye is given, they are doing your dirty work (war itself is a human rights violation).  And yes, the west supported these neo-nazis as well, as they were willing to fight.  But what would you do if Russia invaded a portion of your country, took Crimea and your offshore oil and gas?

So now, two democratically elected presidents later, the majority of the people still want to align with the EU, and are still trying to weed out the corruption that had become so common place.  You are, however, somewhat between a rock and hard place with regard to your neo-nazis.  You want to once again minimize their influence and make them the fringe element they once were, but hey, they fought for you, they feel they deserve more. 

So yes, there is a neo-nazi presence in Ukraine (as well as in many other countries, including the USA and Australia).  Today, they estimate that somewhere around 10-20% of the Ukraine military espouse to be neo-nazi, although that designation is more often associated with white nationalist extremists (this is an issue with the large military organizations of many countries).

The number of people in the military in Ukraine makes up less than 1% of their population, and 10-20% of that 1% espouse to be neo-nazi.  There are also neo-nazis that are not in the military, but all in all, they represent a very small portion of the population, and their views are not the views of the majority of that population.  To say you can't support Ukraine because you don't support nazis is a bit simplistic and condemns an entire country because of a fringe element that had become a necessary evil at one time.   

Supporting the majority of the people of Ukraine in their fight for independence and the elimination of corruption within their government, does not have to mean you support nazis...

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Deleted double post...
   

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That's easy to say.  But consider this...

Your government has become corrupt financially and oppressive to its people, and then, your president ignores the will of the people and the vote of its parliament and decides all on his own to align with Russia instead of the EU (search Euromaidan and the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement).  You, mere citizens, not in control of the military or the police, decide to protest and ultimately revolt and throw that president out of office.  Just as you likely would in Australia, you would welcome the assistance of your fringe neo-nazi movement, because they have weapons and the desire to fight (see Azov Batallion, a group of around a thousand militants in a population of 40 million at the time).  As they say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend...

With the help of this small group, you are successful in overthrowing your government and ousting the corrupt president.  Russia invades in the East, so you send that same group (Azov Battalion) to fight in the east.  And yes, there are all kinds of reported human rights violations due to this group as they slog it out with the Russian invaders, but again, a blind eye is given, they are doing your dirty work (war itself is a human rights violation).  And yes, the west supported these neo-nazis as well, as they were willing to fight.  But what would you do if Russia invaded a portion of your country, took Crimea and your offshore oil and gas?

So now, two democratically elected presidents later, the majority of the people still want to align with the EU, and are still trying to weed out the corruption that had become so common place.  You are, however, somewhat between a rock and hard place with regard to your neo-nazis.  You want to once again minimize their influence and make them the fringe element they once were, but hey, they fought for you, they feel they deserve more. 

So yes, there is a neo-nazi presence in Ukraine (as well as in many other countries, including the USA and Australia).  Today, they estimate that somewhere around 10-20% of the Ukraine military espouse to be neo-nazi, although that designation is more often associated with white nationalist extremists (this is an issue with the large military organizations of many countries).

The number of people in the military in Ukraine makes up less than 1% of their population, and 10-20% of that 1% espouse to be neo-nazi.  There are also neo-nazis that are not in the military, but all in all, they represent a very small portion of the population, and their views are not the views of the majority of that population.  To say you can't support Ukraine because you don't support nazis is a bit simplistic and condemns an entire country because of a fringe element that had become a necessary evil at one time.   

Supporting the majority of the people of Ukraine in their fight for independence and the elimination of corruption within their government, does not have to mean you support nazis...

PW

Very well explained PW.

Jim, I do not support Nazis either, I'm a center socialist, I suppose you could call it Liberal, I do not like extremists, that means either side of the spectrum.



---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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“But consider this”?????? O.m.g. The ends justifies the means is the doctrine slaughtering maniacs.
   
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“But consider this”?????? O.m.g. The ends justifies the means is the doctrine slaughtering maniacs.

Jimboot,

Again, small group, amplified on news/social media by those that push an agenda.  All sides put their spin on the "facts".  As they say, the first casualty of war is truth, and we've heard variations of this story before in other conflicts.

However, I find it rather silly to be outraged by the "pigfat" and not the bullet itself.  If an AK round is ripping thru my body, I doubt I'll be worried about what lube was used on the bullet. 

In any event, if the Chechen Kadyrov would have stayed out of this conflict and within their own borders, and not bragged of their ruthless prowess in assisting Putin's conquest of Ukrainian cities, they would not be dealing with any of this.  But, if something as harmless as pigfat causes a few to think twice about their involvement and go home, so be it.  More lives saved...

If Chechen Muslims attacked your homeland, would all other weapons and methods of destruction be OK, but you would somehow draw the line at using pigfat on bullets because it scares the enemy due to their religious beliefs?   

War is hell...

PW

       
   
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Now it's Denazification?.

This justifies my theory that most people will accept almost anything no matter how ridiculous to support there narrative.

So Putin, the ruthless dictator, who rules with an iron fist and claimed to have no fear of the West is frightened by a few neo-nazi's next door?.
It sounds kind of fickle and weak in my opinion.

AC





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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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I thought this was interesting...

https://interestingengineering.com/elon-musk-increase-oil-and-gas-output
Elon Musk calls for increasing oil and gas output

I agree with Musk and have come to understand much of mankind has proven they do not have the capacity to change.
It seems like every time we have a problem most go into denial, then claim it's not a problem then become outraged at any possible solutions.

It's even more problematic when people become so desperate and fearful there willing to overthrow there own government, start wars or even suggest using nuclear weapons. I think certain segments of society have made it pretty clear there willing to take everyone down with them if we try to force change and evolve too quickly.

As the saying goes..."You Cannot Reason People Out of Something They Were Not Reasoned Into"

Regards
AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Now it's Denazification?.

This justifies my theory that most people will accept almost anything no matter how ridiculous to support there narrative.

So Putin, the ruthless dictator, who rules with an iron fist and claimed to have no fear of the West...

There are suggestions that his puffy face might point to the use of steroids arising from cancer, parkinson's or similar. Is he trying to cement his legacy in a rush with less time to do it in than he imagined? That is something to be really alarmed about.
   

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There are suggestions that his puffy face might point to the use of steroids arising from cancer, parkinson's or similar. Is he trying to cement his legacy in a rush with less time to do it in than he imagined? That is something to be really alarmed about.

Could be he wants to take the world with him.


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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Could be he wants to take the world with him.

I don't think this is far fetched. Russia needs a Klaus von Stauffenberg.
   

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Enjoy your trek through life but leave no tracks
I don't think this is far fetched. Russia needs a Klaus von Stauffenberg.

Re the ET and the reported effects of nuclear testing on dimension barriers, hence the ET presence concerns.

If ET can interfere with ICBM launch codes and neutralizing the things perhaps
it's time for them to take control away from the psychoses and there visions of grandeur!
Perhaps War lords should go the front lines instead of cowardly hiding away from the action they
have created in there secret bunkers.


Sil
   

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Jimboot,

Again, small group, amplified on news/social media by those that push an agenda.  All sides put their spin on the "facts".  As they say, the first casualty of war is truth, and we've heard variations of this story before in other conflicts.

However, I find it rather silly to be outraged by the "pigfat" and not the bullet itself.  If an AK round is ripping thru my body, I doubt I'll be worried about what lube was used on the bullet. 

In any event, if the Chechen Kadyrov would have stayed out of this conflict and within their own borders, and not bragged of their ruthless prowess in assisting Putin's conquest of Ukrainian cities, they would not be dealing with any of this.  But, if something as harmless as pigfat causes a few to think twice about their involvement and go home, so be it.  More lives saved...

If Chechen Muslims attacked your homeland, would all other weapons and methods of destruction be OK, but you would somehow draw the line at using pigfat on bullets because it scares the enemy due to their religious beliefs?   

War is hell...

PW

     
im appalled at you and others  justifying nazism. You have become the thing you hate. Truly sickening. Ordinary people can do monstrous things as goebells showed. I’m not wasting any more time in this toxic thread good bye. Disgusting.
   
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im appalled at you and others  justifying nazism. You have become the thing you hate. Truly sickening. Ordinary people can do monstrous things as goebells showed. I’m not wasting any more time in this toxic thread good bye. Disgusting.

It seems Jim has upped his game...

The logical fallacies by order--
1)Appeal to emotion
2)strawman
3)false cause
4)Ad hominem
5)special pleading
6)slippery slope
7)tu quoque

I have never seen this many logical fallacies in one statement before, well played, lol.

AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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im appalled at you and others  justifying nazism. You have become the thing you hate. Truly sickening. Ordinary people can do monstrous things as goebells showed. I’m not wasting any more time in this toxic thread good bye. Disgusting.

Jimboot,

Apparently you missed the points I was trying to make...

I am appalled at war in general.  People die, bodies are ripped apart.  War is truly horrible.

And yes, you are correct, in war, ordinary people can do monstrous things, that is the nature of all wars, regardless of sides, labels, and justifications.     

"Mankind", a very sad oxymoron...

PW 
   
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PW
Quote
I am appalled at war in general.  People die, bodies are ripped apart.  War is truly horrible.
And yes, you are correct, in war, ordinary people can do monstrous things, that is the nature of all wars, regardless of sides, labels, and justifications

I fail to see how one can claim to believe or be free then be so indifferent they would hate and carpet bomb women and children like were seeing in Ukraine. The rationale eludes me and any rational thought... can anyone explain this?.

AC


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“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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PW
I fail to see how one can claim to believe or be free then be so indifferent they would hate and carpet bomb women and children like were seeing in Ukraine. The rationale eludes me and any rational thought... can anyone explain this?.

AC

Where were you when Ukraine was bombing Donbas for eight years with the death toll estimate of 14,000?

Quote
Viktor Yanukovych, who had been called to the White House right after his 2010 electoral win and was asked by Obama to help to push his country toward joining NATO (though all of the opinion polls that had been taken of the Ukrainian public showed that the vast majority of Ukrainians viewed NATO to be their enemy, no friend of Ukraine).

Yanukovych said no, and the Obama Administration began by no later than 2011 to organize their coup to take down and replace Yanukovych so as to get Ukraine into NATO in order for America to become able to place its missiles only a five-minute striking-distance away from Moscow, for a retaliation-prohibiting blitz nuclear first-strike attack.

During 2003-2009, only around 20% of Ukrainians wanted NATO membership, while around 55% opposed it.

In 2010, Gallup found that whereas 17% of Ukrainians considered NATO to mean “protection of your country,” 40% said it’s “a threat to your country.”

New Video Evidence of America’s Coup in Ukraine — and What it Means
Ukrainians predominantly saw NATO as an enemy, not a friend. But after Obama’s February 2014 Ukrainian coup, “Ukraine’s NATO membership would get 53.4% of the votes, one third of Ukrainians (33.6%) would oppose it.”

The 2014 coup in Ukraine was about two things: getting Ukraine into NATO, and seizing Russia’s biggest naval base, which ever since 1783 has been in Crimea, which (Crimea) the Soviet dictator had transferred to Ukraine in 1954 while still continuing Crimea as the Soviet Union’s biggest naval base. Obama, already by no later than June 2013, was planning to grab that naval base and turn it into yet another U.S. naval base.

However, in order to get that coup-installed new regime to last as being a ‘democracy’, Obama needed to be sure that Crimea, which had voted 75% for Yanukovych, and that Donbass, which had voted more than 90% for Yanukovych, be ethnically cleansed of those especially favorable-toward-Russia voters.

So, promptly as soon as the Obama-installed government received the reins of power in Ukraine, Ukraine’s top generals were replaced by rabidly anti-Russian ones, who planned this ethnic-cleansing of those ‘terrorists’, in what they called their “Anti-Terrorist Operation” or “ATO,” in, especially, Donbass. (Donbass is the farthest-east part of Ukraine’s “East” as shown in slide 26 here, and you can see there that ONLY Crimea was even more anti-U.S. than was Ukraine’s “East.”

Donbass was the most pro-Russian part of that “East.” Those were therefore the two regions where Obama especially needed the ethnic cleansing, the “ATO.”) But it also was done in Odessa, and in other Ukrainian cities that had voted heavily for Yanukovych. This would be the ‘democratic’ way to produce a permanently nazi-controlled Ukraine.

The Obama Administration was demanding that Ukraine quickly conquer Donbass; and, since the only air power over that region was Ukraine’s Air Force, Ukraine relentlessly bombed Donbass. One of their bombers got shot down, but that was only a minor loss for the U.S.-installed regime. Overall, the bombings caused massive devastation in Donbass.

Nonetheless, the U.S. Government’s hopes for a military conquest of Donbass were not fulfilled; and this got us to the current situation.

When, on 15 February 2022, the U.S. Government closed its Embassy in Kiev and relocated it to Lviv (which is the Ukrainian city that was the most ardently pro-Hitler during WW II), it scrubbed from its computers, and from the Web, its correspondences concerning the secret joint U.S.-Ukrainian bioweapons labs that have been built in Ukraine since the Obama coup. (Fortunately, at that link, one can find archived versions of those destroyed documents.) The U.S. Government likewise had established secret Pentagon bioweapons labs in Georgia.

The U.S. Government not only allows Ukraine to firebomb Donbass, but America’s think tanks that have discussed those firebombings have said the Ukrainian Government needs to do more of it.


Ukraine’s nazis also target school buses, so as to kill children, in parts of Ukraine that had voted heavily for Yanukovych.

Furthermore, in the more rightwing parts of Ukraine, nazis are invited into classrooms in order to spread anti-Russia hate and provide literature encouraging the students to join their movement.

This was the situation before Russia invaded Ukraine on 24 February 2022.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/new-video-evidence-of-americas-coup-in-ukraine-and-what-it-means/5430316?utm_campaign=magnet&utm_source=article_page&utm_medium=related_articles

Ron
   

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Where were you when Ukraine was bombing Donbas for eight years with the death toll estimate of 14,000?

https://www.globalresearch.ca/new-video-evidence-of-americas-coup-in-ukraine-and-what-it-means/5430316?utm_campaign=magnet&utm_source=article_page&utm_medium=related_articles

Ron

A Kremlin backed disinformation site with a a CA domain and run by an ex profesor.


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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A Kremlin backed disinformation site with a a CA domain and run by an ex profesor.

It is always good to look at the front page:

https://www.globalresearch.ca/

This includes in the frame on the LH side, an article saying that "By Using Ukraine to Fight Russia, the US Provoked Putin’s War". Links to such a site not only condemns the page highlighted but also the person who links to it.

What amazes me is how stupid these contributors must imagine we are.
   
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