Indoor vertical farming of Crops and Fish

[Chet K]

Under construction.....will be adding more info {LUC will also be adding ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILzWmw53Wwo

[Slider2732]

Will watch the vid shortly.

Am just wondering how you would vertically farm a fish ?
I mean, I know that salmon swim upstream for spawning, but the term 'extreme living' applies if its head was pointing at the sky all its life.



Edit after watching vid - Yup, no disagreements from me. That's the idea and is the direction.
If I can grow trees from seeds, in a bedroom in winter, then just build the things and grow whatever you want (legally of course).
My USB powered method uses white LED's too, but that's common sense to see what is growing and any leaf discolourations etc. The only pest trouble ever here over the last couple of years was when I opened the window for airflow and air change for a couple of days. The resulting spider mites were ridded with washing up liquid sprayed on the leaves...zero chemicals in the soil and zero added any other time.

[gotoluc]

Under construction.....will be adding more info {LUC will also be adding ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILzWmw53Wwo

Thanks Chet for starting a topic on this interesting food growing concept. It would be great if grocery stores would add a few floors to their existing buildings and start using these new growing technology.

Now that you brought this to our attention, in the next few days I will share some of my own ideas and work experience of alternative ways of growing plants.
This past winter I was doing some volunteer work in a semi Southern location where it does not snow. One of the many things I was helping with is maintaining a hydroponics plant growing system.  After some months I had new ideas to improve the existing system.  However, these improvement ideas were always put on the back burner until the very last month of my stay. So unfortunately I didn't even have time to take pictures or do a video. I will email the person responsible as I think he has some pictures of it when it was first setup which will help with the explanations. Once I have them I'll get back to the topic.

Luc

[Chet K]

Mark and Luc

I am trying to get some info on power needs for these Vertical indoor LED Light  farms ,it seems The Chinese have advanced greatly in this area however I cannot
find much info [formal info] only bloggers commenting on Hydroponic and similar Blogs.

In the Northeast USA we have many, many abandoned factories on rivers and streams, the hydro power available to run this type of farming indoors  is staggering.
I have started meeting with local government reps about utilizing this wasted empty space for very useful research and development.

I believe Luc's ideas as well as some others can make this a win win scenario ,If we ever do happen upon an OU power generation device this type application would be
most irresistible ,Hydroponic farming uses 99% less water, scrubs carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and vertical farming concepts can bring yield per acre into
the thousands of percent higher efficiencies than standard open field methods.
not to forget No pesticides and such required.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILzWmw53Wwo

Please share any thoughts and info...
respectfully
Chet K
PS
Also to note is Rob Mason's work [evolvingape] which would most likely make this Viable in any location .completely autonomous of the grid ]

[Slider2732]

For lighting needs:
Think of how many times you might have seen a Slayer Exciter, running off 5V and say 100mA, able to light banks of LED's.
Replace (most of) the whites with red and blues.

Or...a pump is presumably used to carry water around the system. A drop in height of the water from the top tier to the bottom again, will be able to turn a water wheel generator. It may be more efficient conventionally to run a gravity based system, but depending on the grow area design, with the lighting needs factored in, it may prove to be effective running it another way around. That other way bringing the opportunity for the waterwheel.

Or...solar panels on the roof could supply to Li-Ion batteries. The Tesla PowerWall sort of concept could be used for solar storage.

Or...perhaps there can be thoughts on Peltier units within the walls of the building. North facing, for the harshest of weather in Northern climates, the difference between the growing area temp and outside could generate quite the output.


There's no need to think conventionally about the power needs of the lighting system

[PhysicsProf]

  Indoor vertical farming -- what a great concept!

  I'm enjoying the discussion.  As Mark said, these little circuits are great for lighting red and blue LED bulbs, which are used for indoor plants.

Good ideas also, Chet and Luc!

[TinMan]

If you want to breed fish as well,then the fish will feed the plants,and the plants filter the water for the fish.
Sounds like a winner to me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Nfcat6jXBo

[Chet K]

Yes this combination is win win
I believe luc has taken the dry food out and replaced it with worms !
That are part of the systems filtration (they grow in abundance)

For clarity the dry foods for raising fish can be quite suspect in there ingredients
I remember heavy metals and such were found in cheap dryvfish foods
Imported from China

Raising the food for the fish as part of their filtration as well as plant fertilizer
Is a goal which makes a small self contained Eco system.

I believe he will be posting on this  Monday with a few pics too ??

[Slider2732]

Looking forward to Luc's update.

Can't see myself raising fish...in the bedroom LOL
Never mind a bunch of worms crawling around  

The fish in the bearded dudes video would need earmuffs, not sure where all that noise is coming from. It's a good overview, thanks TinMan for the vid.
Particularly attractive, are systems where the fish pond looks like any other garden pond. Powered by a solar water pump, fish are able to mix around the water system, it gets moved up to the plants and looks like a garden feature, not industrial. Plumbing can be colour coded to match any fencing, trellis, walls etc. Plants are in sections by type, similar to a nursery.
The right kind of planning could produce a very attractive system, where it doesn't look like a green scrapyard of bits. Couple of white lawn chairs, drinks table, you get the idea

[TinMan]

My son just bought this around for me. Its a pump with filter system.
240 volt AC-mains.
1000 LTRs an hour @ 1.5 meters head,or 500 LTRs an hour @ 2.5 meters head.

The bottom tray is full of filter rocks,so im thinking that is where the slow release fertilizer will be going.

Now for a strip and clean.
The LED lights i will probably make my self,as it will work out at about 1/5th the cost to buy the same already assembled.

Next job-clean out the garage for our indoor vegie garden.

[JimBoot]

If you want to breed fish as well,then the fish will feed the plants,and the plants filter the water for the fish.
Sounds like a winner to me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Nfcat6jXBo

best fertiliser for my vegie patch is water from the dam that is full of Southern Smelt also known as mossie fish. They keep the wrigglers at bay (mossie larvae)

[Peterae]

A good vegtable to try would be Runner Bean in the UK, although tall, Pygmy bushing varieties are available, the thing with runner beans is the root will remain viable for more than one year, the only thing in the UK is that when outside any frost kills the root otherwise they would re grow next year as well.
If the nutrients can be got right they are a big cropper and Delicious.

In the garden we did well this year so far, we are eating fresh Runner beans, Peas, Parsnips, Potatoes, Spring Onions, Large Onions & Beetroot

[Slider2732]

A good mini-database, would be to assemble grow notes from people here who are going to try indoor growing.
Regular practices, crops grown, yield, nutrients used and compare results against what would be expected.
In the spring, plant the new growth that have germinated over winter and those that have survived winter, compare against regular seed grown.
With LED's, you can begin growing whenever you like and take outdoors whenever you like, if you even take them outdoors.

Your example Peterae would be ideal of the Runner Bean. Can the root be kept going ?
I would say that's a great project. As long as your house is normally above freezing point that is !
Hang on....it's the root. Just lift a 2ftx2ft sod of soil and stick it in the airing cupboard LOL
   

[Chet K]

@ Brad That looks like a good Pump  and the price was right  
Making the LED arrays is a terrific plan.

@
Yes Picking the best crop for the application would be Wise [high nutrition fast growth good yields] ,also I wonder how hardy the plants leaves would be if the Hydroponics
are kept warm ?

I will be calling  High power Pink LED lighting manufacturers this week to get a grasp on power needs for these facilities ,and to see just how helpful they are with
sharing there findings/research in this field as well as bulk pricing for their products.

Jim
perhaps you can price the LEDs in your area Too ? [I will be getting part numbers and such here]

also
Tinsel and Mark E are  working on a super efficient circuit for high power LED's at OU.Com here
http://overunity.com/15976/high-efficiency-led-for-joule-thief-etc/msg459159/#new

and just a reminder of one goal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILzWmw53Wwo

raising fish to be added [Talapia has been one recommendation]

[Peterae]

Apparently to get the correct wavelength and proportion of wavelength they look to be using as one choice Cree XP-E series

http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/LED%20Components%20and%20Modules/XLamp/Data%20and%20Binning/XLampXPE.pdf

3 red (620-630nm) to 1 Royal Blue (450-465nm)

[TinMan]

also
Tinsel and Mark E are  working on a super efficient circuit for high power LED's at OU.Com here
http://overunity.com/15976/high-efficiency-led-for-joule-thief-etc/msg459159/#new

@Chet

For best growth,the LEDs need to be in an on state-no pulses.
Plants work on the same principle as solar panels-->photons. The more photons the better.
You might fool the eye,but you wont fool the plant
The most efficient way to drive an LED to get the most light from them is straight DC. Pulsed systems give the illusion of putting out more light for less power,but this is only what your eyes see. The plants will see through this little scam lol.

[TinselKoala]

Little scam?

I hate to disappoint you but the LED + AP2502 combo does NOT pulse the LED(s) unless you either connect it to a JT, or modulate the Enable pin with a PWM signal.  

In the two demonstration videos I've posted so far, Yes the LED is pulsed: In the first short one I'm pulsing the Enable pin to demonstrate how bright the LED is at only 6mW average applied power (10 percent duty cycle), and in the second one I show that the combo works as a JT load, where it is pulsing at about 50 percent ON duty cycle but with an input voltage to the JT of less than 1.5 V. Neither of these videos show the LED running at 20 mA without pulsing, because it is just _too bright_ to show up well on the camera. And at the 100mA that the LED is rated for.... it's blinding.

The LED that I use in those demonstrations is current-limited by the AP2502 to 20 mA. But each of the 4 "output" sinks in the chip can be paralleled onto a single LED, so you can drive the LED with 20 mA, 40 mA, 60 mA or even 80 mA... and that particular LED is STILL not fully bright at even 80 mA current. The chip is a linear current regulator, not a switchmode device.

Hopefully I have some more of the LEDs coming to me, and then I'll do a demonstration where I actually drive the LED at 80-100 mA DC without pulse modulation. The LED I use is practically the most efficient LED on the market, and the AP2502 current sink regulates the current very efficiently without the losses incurred by using an inline resistor.




Do you think that fluorescent growlight systems aren't pulsing/flickering faster than the eye can see? CFLs? How about ordinary LED replacement bulbs driven by the mains? Flickering, or not?

[TinMan]

Little scam?

I hate to disappoint you but the LED + AP2502 combo does NOT pulse the LED(s) unless you either connect it to a JT, or modulate the Enable pin with a PWM signal.  

In the two demonstration videos I've posted so far, Yes the LED is pulsed: In the first short one I'm pulsing the Enable pin to demonstrate how bright the LED is at only 6mW average applied power (10 percent duty cycle), and in the second one I show that the combo works as a JT load, where it is pulsing at about 50 percent ON duty cycle but with an input voltage to the JT of less than 1.5 V. Neither of these videos show the LED running at 20 mA without pulsing, because it is just _too bright_ to show up well on the camera. And at the 100mA that the LED is rated for.... it's blinding.

The LED that I use in those demonstrations is current-limited by the AP2502 to 20 mA. But each of the 4 "output" sinks in the chip can be paralleled onto a single LED, so you can drive the LED with 20 mA, 40 mA, 60 mA or even 80 mA... and that particular LED is STILL not fully bright at even 80 mA current. The chip is a linear current regulator, not a switchmode device.

Hopefully I have some more of the LEDs coming to me, and then I'll do a demonstration where I actually drive the LED at 80-100 mA DC without pulse modulation. The LED I use is practically the most efficient LED on the market, and the AP2502 current sink regulates the current very efficiently without the losses incurred by using an inline resistor.




Do you think that fluorescent growlight systems aren't pulsing/flickering faster than the eye can see? CFLs? How about ordinary LED replacement bulbs driven by the mains? Flickering, or not?

Lol-what I ment by scam is from the plants point of view-not your pulsed LED driver.
Plants know and feel the difference between pulsed light and continuous light-just like a solar panel dose.
Never used CFLs for growing plants, always used sodium, and like the sunlight, they have no flicker-not sure about CFLs flickering unless the globe or starter is RS-I dont think a good CFL flickers, as the gas dosnt have time to cool between pulses.

[TinMan]

As i have many powerful white LED's,and apparently we need red and blue for best results,i ask this question.
Is there any reason i cant just use a transparent red and blue color plastic like cellophane to change the color of the light output from the white LED's. I mean-if the light is turned from white to blue and red,do we not have the correct wave lengths of light needed?.

[Chet K]

Good question
Will try to get an answer

[gotoluc]

If you want to breed fish as well,then the fish will feed the plants,and the plants filter the water for the fish.
Sounds like a winner to me

Yes, growing fish at the same time as plants is an excellent combination as you can use the fish tank water which will contains fish excrements (poop) to water the plants and at the same time fertilize them.
I volunteered 6 month of my time last winter at an organization which was researching alternative energy and self sustaining living, so part of the help I did was to maintaining the Aquaponic system they had for experimenting on self sustainability.

The below picture is the tanks they used on the project. The below picture is what the tank aka CAGE TOTE looks like unmodified.
These tanks are used in industry to transport liquids, so the ones used in the food industry can safely be used (after cleaning) as an inexpensive fish tank. They are a good idea since they are light (when empty) to pickup. Even when full they can be moved with a floor pump truck as they are mounted on a wood skid.
The idea here is to cut a small part of the upper part of the tank and flip it over on some added steel electrical conduit pipes (across the steel frame) to support it, which is what you are seeing completed in the picture. This upper tank is what is used for the plants and the bottom tank is for the fish.

I will continue posting later on tonight as there is a lot to this.

Luc

[TinselKoala]

As i have many powerful white LED's,and apparently we need red and blue for best results,i ask this question.
Is there any reason i cant just use a transparent red and blue color plastic like cellophane to change the color of the light output from the white LED's. I mean-if the light is turned from white to blue and red,do we not have the correct wave lengths of light needed?.

The wavelengths are already there. A coloured plastic "gel" only filters out some wavelengths and allows the others to pass. They don't magically increase the intensity of parts of the spectrum, they just decrease the intensity of the colours you don't want to see.

A "white" LED is putting out a combination of colours to make your eyes think it's seeing white light. Some work by actually making UV and using that to make a chemical coating fluoresce "white". Others work by using actual R, G, and B LEDs all emitting together to make "white" light as perceived by the eye.

So putting coloured filters between the white LED and your plants will only decrease the total light available and won't actually intensify any particular colour.

[TinMan]

Yes, growing fish at the same time as plants is an excellent combination as you can use the fish tank water which will contains fish excrements (poop) to water the plants and at the same time fertilize them.
I volunteered 6 month of my time last winter at an organization which was researching alternative energy and self sustaining living, so part of the help I did was to maintaining the Aquaponic system they had for experimenting on self sustainability.

The below picture is the tanks they used on the project. The next picture is what the tank aka CAGE TOTES  looks like unmodified.
These tanks are used in industry to transport liquids, so the ones used in the food industry can safely be used (after cleaning) as an inexpensive fish tank. They are a good idea since they are light (when empty) to pickup. Even when full they can be moved with a floor pump truck as they are mounted on a wood skid. The idea here is to cut a small part of the upper part of the tank and flip it over on some added steel electrical conduit pipes (across the steel frame) to support it, which is what you are seeing completed in the picture. This upper tank is what is used for the plants and the bottom tank is for the fish.

I will continue posting later on tonight as there is a lot to this.

Luc

Thanks for your help on this project Luc

[TinMan]

The wavelengths are already there. A coloured plastic "gel" only filters out some wavelengths and allows the others to pass. They don't magically increase the intensity of parts of the spectrum, they just decrease the intensity of the colours you don't want to see.

A "white" LED is putting out a combination of colours to make your eyes think it's seeing white light. Some work by actually making UV and using that to make a chemical coating fluoresce "white". Others work by using actual R, G, and B LEDs all emitting together to make "white" light as perceived by the eye.

So putting coloured filters between the white LED and your plants will only decrease the total light available and won't actually intensify any particular colour.

Thanks for the info TK.
So white LED's should do just as good as mixed blue and red one's?-given they have a decent power output.

[Slider2732]

You know, in a broad and cursory way I agree with TinMan and certainly see the thinking.
White is a combinations of all colours.

I will educate myself on the construction of different LED's.
See, a red LED with low forward voltage and high lumens, could, to my thinking become a blue LED, or at least magenta, by using blue plastic in its construction.
But, reds use the least power, greens most and all others traditionally sit between.
Why not make 1 efficient diode and then stick different coloured plastic over the material for colour variations ?


Thanks Luc for the highly interesting insights into the project experience