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Author Topic: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils  (Read 157054 times)
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You only get to "remove" or "modify" your own posts, and you have to be logged in!
   

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You only get to "remove" or "modify" your own posts, and you have to be logged in!

Probably something more needed...
But I can survive without it  :)


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Your posts must be to important to be able to be removed, its a special status   O0




Meanwhile, here a spectrogram of the signal into the circuit at 1Mhz.
It was taken from across the 51 Ohm load resistor as on the input lead it loaded down the FG signal somewhat, but peaks are similar.

It shows how pure (or not) the input signal is.
Frequency span is 9Khz to 40 Mhz


Itsu
   
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Well, that's strange. Maybe you need more "experience", that is more posts, before the "remove" button appears.

In any case, as long as you have the "modify" button, you can just delete the contents of the post you want to remove, and replace it with a "." or some other neutral content. The post will still be there in the thread but there will be nothing in it except the dot.
   
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Frequency sweep from 50 kHz to 25 MHz in 30 seconds, linear, 2 full sweeps shown.    ???

   
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Another pair of 30 second sweeps from 50 kHz to 25 MHz, with CH4 being the voltage induced in the monofilar pickup coil clamped 1.2 cm away from PBF coil.

   
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Another pair of 30 second sweeps, this time logarithmic from 50 kHz to 25 MHz . The big spike in CH4 is at about 1.7 MHz. 

   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Some may find this document interesting and/or helpful regarding these investigations. Talks mainly about coil self-resonance and self-capacitance.

It contains tests/experimental setups, and is not overly technical.
   

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Buy me some coffee
Some may find this document interesting and/or helpful regarding these investigations. Talks mainly about coil self-resonance and self-capacitance.

It contains tests/experimental setups, and is not overly technical.

Ah-there you are.

Great to see you back again Poynt.


Brad


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Buy me some coffee
Ok,below is the new coil i just finished.

There are two layers on it,the first is on winding,and the second layer is the second winding.

This coil has a low resonant frequency for an air core coil,at just 71KHz exactly.

Inductance value is-- 2.54mH
Capacitance value is-- 4.8nF-->with the two coils open.
Resistance of each coil is 3.8 ohm's,and 7.5 in series.

So,here is the bomb shell.

With this coil,i can get an exact 90* phase shift between voltage and current--pure reactive circuit,and still get 450mV across the R2 resistor.
But my scope is playing funny buggers,and CH2 is very noisy-until i give the scope a good thump,then it clears up.
Im thinking a dry joint on the PCB inside the scope some where.

I can also make the coil either more inductive or capacitive(voltage leads or lags current),as well as a ratio of the two,so the coil is being seen as a pure resistance-voltage and current in phase.

This coil is much easier to tune in many way's,but dose not give the OU results that the BPC dose.
Maybe just the wrong geometry ?


Brad


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It is known that that electric forces and magnetic forces between moving charges are two manifestations of the same effect, magnetic forces being v/c times the electric ones.  It is the historical evolution of electromagnetic knowledge that has labelled them as separate forces.  So there is some characteristic of space that creates or carries this velocity dependent force.

Now imagine you are an observer within your laboratory reference frame where you observe a ball coming towards you at a certain velocity.  The ball is spinning and it has some observable characteristic that tells you the spin axis.  You can discern the angle between the arriving velocity direction and the spin axis.  Now imagine that you are moving relative to the reference frame.  That particular ball will not now appear as travelling towards you it would pass you by.  However another identical ball travelling at the same velocity and on a path parallel to it and having the same spin orientation would appear as travelling towards you.  But now the angle between the spin axis and the arrival direction would be seen to be different.  I believe that this simple velocity dependent spin angle is the basis for the link between electric and magnetic forces.
 
My space is inhabited by particles that resemble neutrinos whizzing through it at light velocity coming from all directions and at a huge number-density.  They have momentum so on impact with a matter particle there is a force impulse.  They carry spin that is an independent vector which can have any orientation with respect to the velocity vector.  Absorption of these space particles by matter particles and subsequent emission obey rules that use the velocity dependent spin angle to determine the resultant force endured by the matter particle.  It is the pattern of those spin angles that is imprinted onto the vast collection of arriving space particles that are the photons that drive our conduction electrons.  Or rather the pattern as seen by each moving electron.  We have the ability to create patterns that produce measurable effects.  Note that there are two patterns involved, that which drives the output electrons and that which drives the input electrons, and normally the measured effects yield COP<1.  We have this two way communication between output and input, but the forces involved are always due to interaction between the electrons and the space particles.

Now in the experiments being performed here the electrons in the output are being driven by a combination of both magnetic and electric forces.  That combination is being produced in an unusual manner.  IOW the pattern imprinted onto the space particles that will arrive at the output electrons is unusual.  And the pattern imprinted onto the space particles that will arrive at  the input electrons is unusual.  I see no reason why those patterns should not produce COP>1 or even COP=infinity.

Smudge 
   
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Ok,below is the new coil i just finished.

There are two layers on it,the first is on winding,and the second layer is the second winding.

This coil has a low resonant frequency for an air core coil,at just 71KHz exactly.

Inductance value is-- 2.54mH
Capacitance value is-- 4.8nF-->with the two coils open.
Resistance of each coil is 3.8 ohm's,and 7.5 in series.

So,here is the bomb shell.

With this coil,i can get an exact 90* phase shift between voltage and current--pure reactive circuit,and still get 450mV across the R2 resistor.
But my scope is playing funny buggers,and CH2 is very noisy-until i give the scope a good thump,then it clears up.
Im thinking a dry joint on the PCB inside the scope some where.

I can also make the coil either more inductive or capacitive(voltage leads or lags current),as well as a ratio of the two,so the coil is being seen as a pure resistance-voltage and current in phase.

This coil is much easier to tune in many way's,but dose not give the OU results that the BPC dose.
Maybe just the wrong geometry ?


Brad

Brad, this is interesting and answers one question I've had about concentric wound coils regarding MEI.  Do I understand that you are seeing this 90 degree input voltage current phase difference in the 60-90kHz range while still having a small positive output? 

FWIW, as a delay line, the Td = 3.5us, Z = 727 ohms, and velocity v = 285.7e3 m/s.  At this low velocity, you may very well be able to achieve 1/2 wavelength at a reasonably low frequency and could be calculated knowing the length of wire in one winding.

Pm
   
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Since my oscilloscope does not have isolated channel references (like Russ Grier's TDS2024b does), it is necessary to disconnect all the probe reference leads in order not to create a groundloop when measuring across the two resistors separately.  So to measure the current through R2a, I connect the probe tip close to one side of the resistor and the probe reference to the other side. Then I move the probe and its reference to either side of the R2b resistor. If some other probe reference remains connected to the "ground" side of R2a, the common ground point, then this point is shorted to the side of the R2B resistor which has its probe reference connected. 

My FG's "black" output (bnc shield) can be isolated by a switch. It is pretty neat the way the F43 achieves this; its metal box is grounded to the mains cord ground pin, but the circuit board is isolated and all the BNC connectors (it has 5 on the front panel) are insulated bulkhead feedthrus. The circuit board is only grounded to the case at a single point and this point is connected through the switch (which is normally on the back panel but I have relocated it to the front panel for convenience.) Of course as soon as one connects a BNC patch cord from the F43 to another, grounded, instrument this isolation goes away, but in this case I have not done that.
 
My ElCheepo DDSFG is powered by a 2-pin 5 VDC wallwart power supply so its outputs are also isolated from the mains ground, unless patched to another grounded instrument.

You are of course correct in that this results in some capacitive coupling to true Earth ground, but this doesn't seem to be a problem with measurements of this circuit. The important feature of the "isolation" is that the Black (bnc shield) FG lead is not directly connected to the mains cord ground pin and thus to the chassis ground and probe ground references of the oscilloscope or other mains-powered and grounded instruments.


To completely delete or "remove" a post.... click on the "remove" button next to the "quote" and "modify" buttons at lower right.

TK,

The schematic you provided showed four probes connected to the circuit, with two of those probes across R2b.  I thought you were just measuring the difference between those two probes for the R2b Vdrop.  Did you confirm that removing the other probes from the circuit had no effect on the R2b Vdrop or phase angle?  (Luc's measurements changed just from switching a probe's attenuation factor)

Was R2b positioned close to the FG's output or the coil?  What does the Vdrop across R2b look like with R2b positioned right at the FG output

I would be very cautious about connecting a shield to various measurement points and just assuming it is having no effect elsewhere on this circuit.  Floated grounds should only be considered as isolating the signal and chassis/AC ground via a capacitance in parallel with a large resistance.  That capacitance and resistance can be measured.

I could not find a remove or delete button, apparently newbies don't have full driving privileges.

No worries, some kind soul cleaned up my mess...

PW
   
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It is known that that electric forces and magnetic forces between moving charges are two manifestations of the same effect, magnetic forces being v/c times the electric ones.  It is the historical evolution of electromagnetic knowledge that has labelled them as separate forces.  So there is some characteristic of space that creates or carries this velocity dependent force.

Smudge,

Thanks for your input!  So I can grasp what you are saying and meaning above in the highlighted area, could you elaborate on this please.  For example, is the "v" above the velocity of the electromagnetic longitudinal wave in the transmission  line equivalent or......?   

Quote
Now imagine you are an observer within your laboratory reference frame where you observe a ball coming towards you at a certain velocity.  The ball is spinning and it has some observable characteristic that tells you the spin axis.  You can discern the angle between the arriving velocity direction and the spin axis.  Now imagine that you are moving relative to the reference frame.  That particular ball will not now appear as travelling towards you it would pass you by.  However another identical ball travelling at the same velocity and on a path parallel to it and having the same spin orientation would appear as travelling towards you.  But now the angle between the spin axis and the arrival direction would be seen to be different.  I believe that this simple velocity dependent spin angle is the basis for the link between electric and magnetic forces.
 
My space is inhabited by particles that resemble neutrinos whizzing through it at light velocity coming from all directions and at a huge number-density.  They have momentum so on impact with a matter particle there is a force impulse.  They carry spin that is an independent vector which can have any orientation with respect to the velocity vector.  Absorption of these space particles by matter particles and subsequent emission obey rules that use the velocity dependent spin angle to determine the resultant force endured by the matter particle.  It is the pattern of those spin angles that is imprinted onto the vast collection of arriving space particles that are the photons that drive our conduction electrons.  Or rather the pattern as seen by each moving electron.  We have the ability to create patterns that produce measurable effects.  Note that there are two patterns involved, that which drives the output electrons and that which drives the input electrons, and normally the measured effects yield COP<1.  We have this two way communication between output and input, but the forces involved are always due to interaction between the electrons and the space particles.

Now in the experiments being performed here the electrons in the output are being driven by a combination of both magnetic and electric forces.  That combination is being produced in an unusual manner.  IOW the pattern imprinted onto the space particles that will arrive at the output electrons is unusual.  And the pattern imprinted onto the space particles that will arrive at  the input electrons is unusual.  I see no reason why those patterns should not produce COP>1 or even COP=infinity.

Very interesting!  As we go "a little further down the road" as the blues song says, I hope to see replications of particular configurations of the MEI device that have produced infinite COP results on my bench.  Perhaps TK has already seen this but I'm not sure.  It would be nice to have theoretical math to support the results seen so coil designs could be optimized with various parameters for various functions.

Edit-

Pm
Quote
Smudge

   
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Another pair of 30 second sweeps, this time logarithmic from 50 kHz to 25 MHz . The big spike in CH4 is at about 1.7 MHz.

TK,

This is very interesting!  Is this the same coil you started with that you previously posted the specs for?  Also having the dimensions we could calculate the MLT to determine the number of turns if you don't have that info.  I'm curious as to what your interpretation is of this peaked induction?

Pm 
   

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It shows how pure (or not) the input signal is.
Notice, that the cos(phi) power factor is applicable only to the 1MHz peak.
All others are unaccounted for.
   

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It is known that that electric forces and magnetic forces between moving charges are two manifestations of the same effect, magnetic forces being v/c times the electric ones.   
...and gravitational forces being v/c times the magnetic ones.

Aren't such musings better suitable for this thread?
   

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Notice, that the cos(phi) power factor is applicable only to the 1MHz peak.
All others are unaccounted for.

Does that mean that these unaccounted peaks are NOT properly being reflected into the input power?  But still are there causing this COP>1 output?
   

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Does that mean that these unaccounted peaks are NOT properly being reflected into the input power?  But still are there causing this COP>1 output?
I do not have data on reflections in this circuit, but the cos(phi) power factor can be used for the phase correction of the VRMS * IRMS product only for purely sinusoidal waveforms.  Any peak besides the first one indicates a departure from a pure sine wave, and the energy content of these peaks is not properly accounted for by the single cos(phi) power factor.

P.S.
I'm posting from a mobile phone now and I don't remember whether your spectrogram represented input current or input voltage.
   

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...and gravitational forces being v/c times the magnetic ones.

Aren't such musings better suitable for this thread?

You are probably right , but I wanted to inject it here as a steer towards a means for solving the dilemma.  I think there might be a way forward that looks at each part of the transmission line taking into account the electric (capacitive) coupling which is mainly local and involves surface charge plus the magnetic coupling that is more far reaching and influencing those surface charges.  That unusual combination of effects at each point along the line could perhaps supply a theory that fits the measurements, then the space particles theory explains where the energy comes from.  I'll have a stab at creating the theory.

Smudge
   
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A lot to catch up with, but I wanted to get this down first.


OK, so I made a "coupling transformer" using a toroid, according to ION's suggestion. I connected this transformer's higher turns winding to the Interstate F43 FG, and the lower turns winding to the input of the PBF system. So the system is fed only through the transformer, no direct wire connection to the FG, not even a common ground.

The probe positions otherwise are normal. I have the active coil sandwiched with the monofilar coil but no load is connected to the monofilar coil.

1.2386 MHz, phase shift -81.98.

IN:
Math average 19.1 mW
2.44 x 0.0396 x cos-81.98 = 0.01348 W or 13.5 mW

OUT:
0.7612/19.8 = 0.0292 W or 29.2 mW

COP 2.16
   

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Smudge,

Thanks for your input!  So I can grasp what you are saying and meaning above in the highlighted area, could you elaborate on this please.  For example, is the "v" above the velocity of the electromagnetic longitudinal wave in the transmission  line equivalent or......?   

No, it is the velocity of the conduction electrons both within the conductors and on the surface, but there are an awful lot of them so they don't move very fast to create a measurable effect.  Note that the velocity of the output electrons forming the current supplied to the load resistor will not be the same value all along the line because of the electric coupling pulling electrons to the surface or pushing them away so the number density of electrons is not constant along the conductor within the transmission line.  I think it is the weird combination of these effects that could explain the results.

Smudge
   
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OK, one more with the F43 output amplitude cranked right up near the top.

1.2422 MHz, phase shift -81.49 degrees

IN:
Scope Math average 60.7 mW
4.58 x 0.0746 x cos(-81.49) = 0.05056 W or 50.1 mW

OUT:
1.382/19.8 = 0.09618 W or 96.2 mW

COP 1.92
   
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I  can't help it, these are just soooo pretty....

 8)
   
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Well, we have apparently eliminated the objection about the location of the CVR at least. However I think we still don't know if the whole probing scheme is the proper way to test this circuit.  Does the Vrms2/Rtotal calculation accurately give a real output value? Do the resistors heat up enough?
Mine do feel slightly warm but remember I'm using the F43 at over 20 v p-p input.

It's a great puzzler all right. But so far in my testing with the Gyula Doubler on the output, the "ou" effect goes away when that is connected.

Hi TinselKoala,

Would you mind to share some details on this?
What I am mainly curious about is
-phase shift at input goes away and retuning is needed to get the -80 to -82 degree phase shift when the resistor R1 removed from L2
-any other detail you have done on this test when you have a few minutes

Thanks
Gyula

   
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