Climate change gets a new twist ..in a court of law.

[Chet K]

https://www.technocracy.news/index.php/2017/07/04/fatal-courtroom-act-ruins-michael-hockey-stick-mann/

Thanks to member ronee for the link.

Chet K

[TinMan]

Well i guess the polar ice cap's are melting because ?the water is too salty?

Anyway,just across the border


https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/jul/07/tesla-to-build-worlds-biggest-lithium-ion-battery-in-south-australia?CMP=share_btn_tw


Brad

[ronee]

https://www.technocracy.news/index.php/2017/07/04/fatal-courtroom-act-ruins-michael-hockey-stick-mann/

Thanks to member ronee for the link.

Chet K

Thanks Chet, there is a difference... I should have posted the graph, so here it is...



Ron

[Kator01]

what I found today

https://thsresearch.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/ef-gast-data-research-report-062717.pdf

Mike

[ronee]

what I found today

https://thsresearch.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/ef-gast-data-research-report-062717.pdf

Mike

Good one Mike. I am literally aghast at the deliberate misrepresentation of GAST.  Yet so many people swallowed it hook line and sinker. Thanks for you confirming link.

Ron

[Chet K]

more news on this topic

http://climatechangedispatch.com/breaking-michael-mann-doubles-down-over-contempt-issue/

[TinMan]

Well im not sure how anyone thinks that there has not been a temperature increase-even in the last 40 years.

I remember as a young kid,we use to spend all day,both days of the weekend,down at the river swimming.
Never did we wear a shirt or sunscreen,and never did we get sun burnt. We use to ride around the streets on our pushbike's all day without a shirt on,and never got sunburn.
But now-now you spend just 1/2 an hour in the summer sun,and your cooked.

These were just some thoughts/memories of my past childhood to today,and i have been alive long enough to see the change for myself.

So,i thought i would look up Australia's history on average temperature's over the last 40 years 

The evidence seems to agree with my account of temperature change in the last 40 years.


Brad

[Allcanadian]

@Tinman

I remember as a young kid,we use to spend all day,both days of the weekend,down at the river swimming.
Never did we wear a shirt or sunscreen,and never did we get sun burnt. We use to ride around the streets on our pushbike's all day without a shirt on,and never got sunburn.
But now-now you spend just 1/2 an hour in the summer sun,and your cooked.

I remember spending endless days on the river fishing, boating and exploring in my teens. Hell as a farm boy the only time I ever went inside was to eat or when it was too dark to do anything outside. As you say it ain't like that anymore and things have changed. I fear my children and my grandchildren may never know what we knew which is why I do what I do. This isn't about me or my opinions and I have no problem with being wrong about anything. Hell I'm wrong about most things but not climate change because it's so in your face it's impossible to deny.

It's here and it's happening and the only question which remains is what are we going to do about it?.

Tim Ball seems to have a interesting past...rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tim_Ball.

http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/personfactsheet.php?id=1164
Retired - Professor of Geography, University of Winnepeg
Senior Scientific Advisor, Friends of Science Chairman and Chair of the Scientific Advisory Committee, Natural Resources Stewardship Project (NRSP)

Tim Ball was a "scientific advisor" to the oil industry funded Friends of Science, an organization well known for its climate skepticism and politically charged attack ads. Ball is a member of the Board of Research Advisors of the Frontier Centre for Public Policy, a Canadian free-market think tank which is also predominantly funded by foundations and corporations. Ball is also a writer for Tech Central Station, a climate denial website run by the PR firm DCI Group.
Tim Ball was a professor of geography at the University of Winnipeg from 1988 to 1996. He is a prolific speaker and writer in the skeptical science community.

So he is a professor of geography not climatology and an oil industry advisor so we should be clear he is not a climatologist and the list just goes on and on. When we do the research it always comes back to the fact all these fake organizations and research groups are simply fronts for the oil and gas industry.

[Allcanadian]

@Tinman
I remember spending endless days on the river fishing, boating and exploring in my teens. Hell as a farm boy the only time I ever went inside was to eat or when it was too dark to do anything outside. As you say it ain't like that anymore and things have changed. I fear my children and my grandchildren may never know what we knew which is why I do what I do. This isn't about me or my opinions and I have no problem with being wrong about anything. Hell I'm wrong about most things but not climate change because it's so in your face it's impossible to deny.

It's here and it's happening and the only question which remains is what are we going to do about it?.

Tim Ball seems to have a interesting past...rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tim_Ball.

http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/personfactsheet.php?id=1164
Retired - Professor of Geography, University of Winnepeg
Senior Scientific Advisor, Friends of Science Chairman and Chair of the Scientific Advisory Committee, Natural Resources Stewardship Project (NRSP)
Tim Ball was a "scientific advisor" to the oil industry funded Friends of Science, an organization well known for its climate skepticism and politically charged attack ads. Ball is a member of the Board of Research Advisors of the Frontier Centre for Public Policy, a Canadian free-market think tank which is also predominantly funded by foundations and corporations. Ball is also a writer for Tech Central Station, a climate denial website run by the PR firm DCI Group.
Tim Ball was a professor of geography at the University of Winnipeg from 1988 to 1996. He is a prolific speaker and writer in the skeptical science community.

So he is a professor of geography not climatology and an oil industry advisor so we should be clear he is not a climatologist and the list just goes on and on. When we do the research it always comes back to the fact all these fake organizations and research groups are simply fronts for the oil and gas industry. The funding and affiliations always point to the oil and gas industry thus they have no credibility.

[TinselKoala]

https://xkcd.com/1732/

[Centraflow]

Yes it is happening, you don't need to look at others investigations, of which as shown are all manipulated, just look at WHAT YOU SEE FOR YOURSELF

It's not a question of "warming" as much as of change. Areas of the planet have changed their climate, where it was very cold in winter is now less cold, where it was not very wet is now very wet, floods etc. some areas where there was reasonable rain now has next to no rain. In the UK I was brought up with winters of snow and -10c every year without fail, and now very little or no snow and -5c. Last May one of my sons had 32c in the wash area of England (North Atlantic), never ever seen before and he is a geography professor.

If people can't see for themselves the changes, then we are doomed, and makes me wonder who they work for!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look at all the natural disasters in the last 20yrs, they are on a "huge" increase, floods, areas of no rain, earthquakes, landslides, volcano activity, ice thickness and area in the poles, you can't  put your head in the sand and say it is not happening, because it is.

Come on guy's, things are not normal, I go along with Tinman and Allcanadian on this, we are in trouble, and getting in deeper.

Regards

Mike

[Allcanadian]

If people can't see for themselves the changes, then we are doomed, and makes me wonder who they work for!

I also found it a little odd that all of the people I know who have a vested interest in fossil fuels also have strong feelings climate change is not real. I don't mean some of them I mean all of them without exception. Then we have the conspiracy nut jobs who seem to have fallen prey to the biggest conspiracy in history. They have bought into the "climate change hoax" conspiracy hook, line and sinker.

Myself I didn't believe climate change was possible at first but after looking at all the facts I changed my mind. After looking at all the data and tracking down the real sources of all this fake media against climate change it became apparent to me we do in fact have a real problem.

I grew up in the oil and gas industry and I have seen first hand the stupid shit they do. Worked pipeline, the rigs, field operations and operating heavy equipment. The boys don't like to talk about climate change when I'm around because they know I do not tolerate stupidity. So when they bring up this climate change hoax BS it only takes a few minutes to teach them the error in their ways. In fact I hear the last hard core oil man I talked with is in the process of building a 10 MW solar farm. Their not all stupid it's just that they see no way out or other options. Show them a better way to make a living and most will jump at the opportunity.

Climate change is real and it's quite possibly the biggest threat we have seen in our lifetime. Those are the facts and at some point were going to have to deal with it.

[CITFTA]

Hi AC,

Only a fool would say the climate is not changing.  Anyone over the age of 50 or so can easily remember the colder winters with lots of snow.  At least in the area I grew up in.

My problem is the reasons given for the change and the exaggerated claims about how bad things are going to get because of some warming of the earth.  Both sides of the issue have given lots of false data to back up their claims.  You say you don't believe in any conspiracy theories yet you claim the oil companies are doing just that with their claims of no climate change and their backing of the climate change deniers.  A problem I have with the conspiracy theory is that most people believe the oil companies control big government, yet it is big government that is promoting the idea of global warming.  Something doesn't make sense there.

The fact is the earth has always been changing and will probably continue to do just that.  An increase in CO2 is not a death knoll for the earth.  Some independent studies have looked at data from the past and determined the earth went through a great warming trend during the middle ages.  In fact it was much warmer then than now.  Any fool could probably figure out our earth is heated by the sun.  The energy from the sun is not always exactly the same.  Any ham radio operator is familiar with the sun-spot cycles that normally occur every 11 years.  These cycles do have an effect on the earth. 

Yes there are some downsides to an increase in global temperature, but all the alarmist are totally ignoring any benefits the warmer climate will have.  Their arguments are so one-sided as to be ridiculous.

Many plants thrive on an increase in CO2.  Our heating costs in the north will and have gone down because of the warmer winters.  Our costs for snow removal have also gone down.  The number of auto accidents caused by slippery roads will go down.  Our growing season is now getting longer in the U.S.

By the way in one of your posts you claimed someone had predicted about 10 years ago that the southern U.S. would become a desert with all moisture moving north into Canada.  Well ten years have past and all signs of a drought we went through a couple of years ago are now totally gone.  We have had two years now of above normal rainfall.  So it appears the drought we had was just one of the normal cycles the earth goes through from time to time.

While I applaud your efforts to do something I still think they won't make a lot of difference.  I do agree we should all do more to create less pollution and conserve what resources we have.  That is one of the reasons I have spent time and money working on free energy projects hoping to make a difference.  But I just don't buy into all the crap the alarmists keep putting out.

Respectfully,
Carroll

[Room3327]

Hi AC,

Only a fool would say the climate is not changing.  Anyone over the age of 50 or so can easily remember the colder winters with lots of snow.  At least in the area I grew up in.

My problem is the reasons given for the change and the exaggerated claims about how bad things are going to get because of some warming of the earth.  Both sides of the issue have given lots of false data to back up their claims.  You say you don't believe in any conspiracy theories yet you claim the oil companies are doing just that with their claims of no climate change and their backing of the climate change deniers.  A problem I have with the conspiracy theory is that most people believe the oil companies control big government, yet it is big government that is promoting the idea of global warming.  Something doesn't make sense there.

The fact is the earth has always been changing and will probably continue to do just that.  An increase in CO2 is not a death knoll for the earth.  Some independent studies have looked at data from the past and determined the earth went through a great warming trend during the middle ages.  In fact it was much warmer then than now.  Any fool could probably figure out our earth is heated by the sun.  The energy from the sun is not always exactly the same.  Any ham radio operator is familiar with the sun-spot cycles that normally occur every 11 years.  These cycles do have an effect on the earth. 

Yes there are some downsides to an increase in global temperature, but all the alarmist are totally ignoring any benefits the warmer climate will have.  Their arguments are so one-sided as to be ridiculous.

Many plants thrive on an increase in CO2.  Our heating costs in the north will and have gone down because of the warmer winters.  Our costs for snow removal have also gone down.  The number of auto accidents caused by slippery roads will go down.  Our growing season is now getting longer in the U.S.

By the way in one of your posts you claimed someone had predicted about 10 years ago that the southern U.S. would become a desert with all moisture moving north into Canada.  Well ten years have past and all signs of a drought we went through a couple of years ago are now totally gone.  We have had two years now of above normal rainfall.  So it appears the drought we had was just one of the normal cycles the earth goes through from time to time.

While I applaud your efforts to do something I still think they won't make a lot of difference.  I do agree we should all do more to create less pollution and conserve what resources we have.  That is one of the reasons I have spent time and money working on free energy projects hoping to make a difference.  But I just don't buy into all the crap the alarmists keep putting out.

Respectfully,
Carroll

I totally agree with you, If people were paying attention they would know that all the planets of the solar system have warmed up by the same amount in the same period of time.  A increase in the co2 level caused by us will cause vegetation to grow better and so on.  I don't think we can as a species really do much harm to a body the size of the earth excluding of course things like nuclear war.  Thank you for posting some common sense on this matter.

Room

[JimBoot]

The prediction that scared me the most was 50 million climate refugees by 2010

[Grumage]

The prediction that scared me the most was 50 million climate refugees by 2010

Panic over then??   

[TinMan]

   

Room

I totally agree with you, If people were paying attention they would know that all the planets of the solar system have warmed up by the same amount in the same period of time.

And who provided this information?.

A increase in the co2 level caused by us will cause vegetation to grow better and so on.

Well,as long as the plant's can grow.
Who give's a toss about what our children and grandchildren will be breathing.

I don't think we can as a species really do much harm to a body the size of the earth

I have to take that as a joke,as nobody could actually believe that--could they?.

Thank you for posting some common sense on this matter

.

I fail to see any common sense in any of that.


Brad

[Duncan]

So we aim to save the planet and rub the imaginary sore that is climate change better? not every bodies cup of tea I know but George Carling has something to say on the subject that might amuse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB0aFPXr4n4
And yes as pointed out by room the ice caps on Mars are also receding at a phenomenal rate (alledgedly), Does anyone realistically think that fossle fuels and plastic bags  used on earth some 35 Million (ish) miles away has anything to do it?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html
There are also of course many on this forum who are well aware that fossle fuels are totally unnecessary anyway.!
And so on to these overpaid worthless duds who are going to alter the weather and all the others who rush to offer an opinion
Ask them to look out of a window - hopefully there will be a few clouds up there - Millions of tons of water on the move!
The calculation is a little Tedious but not difficult with the help of an old school giving rainfall so I'll put it here for Interest quite apart from anything else its yet another so called 'unknown' system and  so point out that huge amounts of energy are freely available and that it is beyond any doubt.
Recently you will have watched the horrific fire in a block of flats in London, One of the major reasons such fires cannot be brought under control is the problem of lifting water which is very heavy to great heights in quantity and yet Nature does it with consummate ease unnoticed by most, constantly
To believe that the fundamental function of this huge engine is not fully understood by tptb (The powers that be) is crass and naive however the reasons that such information should be kept in the circle of 'the few' makes much more sense as you come to understand the politics of 'free energy'. .
I guess the first thing to dispel is 'water shortage' What water shortage? where has it gone ? where can it possibly go ? on a space ship perhaps?
There is surly as much water on our planet as ever there was not a penny weight more or less, Its true some may be in the sea or a river or as a temporary measure passing through you, or perhaps a dog,cow or other creature lucky enough to have access to pure clean water,
It is this huge natural irrigation system that provided the vast majority of this essential clean water.So what energy is required to drive this huge engine? I consider because IMHO that same unexplained energy source is the keystone to a lot of other devices - so to basics -
It transpires that the average rainfall for the entire earth is 32 inches per annum. If all that fell at one time the entire globe would be flooded to a depth of one meter. (sorry for mixing inches and meters tis an old atlas) This amount of water weighs about 480 million million tons so should always be handled with care (lifting with a straight back and wearing steel caped boots.)
Since water must be lifted by evaporation from every lake river river and ocean to an altitude of at least 1200 meters in order for it to fall as rain it works out that this massive irrigation effort requires the expenditure of 220 thousand million horse power continuously throughout the year. This irrigation system has been at work for millions of years and yet only a small part of the energy which impacts the earth is being used.
Using these figures alone every square meter of the earths surface receives over 1.25 K/W each day over a 12 hour period this is about 48,600 KW/hrs -- If you actually had to pay the nice electric man for this energy (and that doesn't include  the lawmakers and banksters bonuses) you would soon be bankrupt.
I put these figures here lest any doubt that this energy isn't available - Its working every day moving millions and millions of tons in plain view. however any key component is simply removed from the education system -- evaporation ? what that ? how that work ? no one know ?? Really - do you believe that no one knows and its a mystery ?
If you do then I'll have to move you from the 'stupid but savable category' down the ladder to where the other morons who believe the global warming/climate change  twaddle/swindle  live.
who removed the key components from the eduction system and started playing 'mind games'? well initially It seems Rockefeller and the 'energy' industry 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySnk-f2ThpE
eagerly followed by a grasping  hungry elite who are driving a very unpleasant political agenda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDPoZJNT1eM
so you tell me are you going to continue listening and reading great words of wisdom from tricksters who don't have the remotest idea of how a rain cloud works never mind 'save the bloody planet' ?
give the slimy shits a proper job preferably down a mine or perhaps digging taties (on minimum wage would be good) they are IMHO highly recompensed oxygen thieves.   

     

[Room3327]

And who provided this information?.

Well,as long as the plant's can grow.
Who give's a toss about what our children and grandchildren will be breathing.

I have to take that as a joke,as nobody could actually believe that--could they?.
.

I fail to see any common sense in any of that.


Brad

Q1,
Well Tinman, heres one article, I'm sure you can find more if you look.
www.space.news/2015-10-06-entire-solar-system-is-heating-up-scientists-blame-solar-warming.html

Q2,
Plants growing provide what? oxygen!

Q3,
I'll back off that claim just for you.

Q4,
I  fail to see the common sense coming from most of you, very subjective.

I know you don't like me but I'm still here aren't I.

[Chet K]

Well
I hope you fellows don't take this the wrong way..

most who contribute to Peter's forum fall into the "common goal" or "men of like mind" category .

I often think what an amazing group of fellows contribute here ,the talent level is very deep
and the goals very clear ..

we all agree the earthship is a mess ...the captains [gov'ts] are running her to ground and stepping on the gas.
she's got holes everywhere , and here we are ...

Talking about the weather ??

maybe we could talk about politics next ?
or religion?
or sports ?


we may not all be the best of friends ,but when I look around ...we're all in the same boat ,and all have skills ..
and most want the best for the future ...

I don't see anybody else throwing us a line ?


there are plenty of places to argue,and its all too easy when we're frustrated and angry.

how are we gonna fix this ? [the boat]

I must add, here the road has been filled with bumps and disappointments  ,but here the crew is better then they have ever been at spotting
dead ends and wasted paths ..

what an amazing bunch of fellows...

respectfully
Chet K

[Allcanadian]

@Duncan

Since water must be lifted by evaporation from every lake river river and ocean to an altitude of at least 1200 meters in order for it to fall as rain it works out that this massive irrigation effort requires the expenditure of 220 thousand million horse power continuously throughout the year. This irrigation system has been at work for millions of years and yet only a small part of the energy which impacts the earth is being used.

Here are some numbers Duncan.
Way back in 2014 the world primary energy supply amounted to 155,481 terawatt-hour (TWh) and around 80% of that is from fossil fuels. That is 155,481,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts or around 208 million million horse power. You see your supposedly massive natural irrigation system pales in comparison to the damage we do and energy consumption is rising fast as we speak.

Can you even begin to comprehend how many billions and billions and billions of tons of hydrocarbons we have pumped out of the ground and released into our atmosphere?. Obviously you seem to have literally no idea in my opinion. The fact, the irrefutable fact is that anyone who thinks we can remove billions upon billions upon billions of tons of hydrocarbons from the ground and vaporize them into our atmosphere and think nothing will come of it has serious mental issues they need to address.

Start your car in a closed garage then pump water vapor in ... WTF do you think is going to happen Duncan?. Your garage is now a good example of what will happen to this planet over time on a larger scale if we continue to pump hydrocarbons from the ground into the atmosphere. All that condensation will form carbonic acid from the CO2 and it will literally eat away and kill everything in sight. Do you people not even understand basic chemistry?.

What do you think is going to happen when we pump all those hydrocarbons which also contain heavy metals from the ground into our atmosphere?. You should know exactly what is going to happen so why are you peddling complete BS?.

[TinMan]

 author=Room3327 link=topic=3488.msg63306#msg63306 date=1499619443]

Q1,
Well Tinman, heres one article, I'm sure you can find more if you look.
www.space.news/2015-10-06-entire-solar-system-is-heating-up-scientists-blame-solar-warming.html

Uh ha
Quote: The warming of the entire solar system has been supported by some scientists.

Quote:A reverse in the sun's magnetic poles has opened the flood gates: the solar system is experiencing an overflow of star dust.

Cant have to much star dust now. 

Quote: What is puzzling scientists is the amount of star dust that continues to flood the solar system

See what happens when you have too much star dust--it confuses the scientist's. 

Quote: Scientists believe the sun's polarity may have not completely reversed in 2001. Instead of reversing, from north to south, the poles may have flipped only half-way

Oh,now they are not quite sure if the magnetic field flipped 180* or only 90*--must be all that star dust confusing them .

And you did see this statement-didnt you?
Quote: Their is no doubt that human activity is impacting climate change.

Q2,
Plants growing provide what? oxygen!

The bulk being from tree's--you know,the things we keep cutting down faster than they are replaced.
Plants also dont care to much for carbon monoxide 

Q3,
I'll back off that claim just for you.

Well-just saying 

Q4,
I  fail to see the common sense coming from most of you, very subjective.

Common sense 
You'd have to be brain dead if you think that most of the changes are of a natural nature.

I know you don't like me but I'm still here aren't I.

And why would you think that?-because i disagree with you?

One would have to wonder why you are here,if you feel everything is all fine and dandy with the world.


Brad

[Room3327]

Duncan, I thought that clip of Carlin's was very funny.

Chet I agree with you, Who keeps putting these kind of threads up?

Tinman, you know I don't think everything is fine and dandy with the world, I just think the problems with the world are different than what you think they are.  We can agree to disagree can't we?

Room

[JimBoot]

Thanks Chet, I think everyone here want's clean energy not only for the environment but to free ourselves from big oil. The predictions for me have continuously proved erroneous I consider myself a greenie. I stopped voting green when they wanted a carbon tax here. I'm a vego so I'm NOT (apart from my only farts which I grant you is significant, if you listen to my wife anyway) contributing methane, I have solar power and the access I push back to the grid. Our water supply is rainwater only. My vegie patch is fully organic. In 2007 I ran a site promoting Global warming scare. I can no longer subscribe to the CO2 theory though when you look at some of the fraudulent data from Mann, climate gate etc. NASA even deleted a post saying the sun was more influential than CO2. I saved it. http://jimboot.com/ice-age-coming-deleted-from-nasa

I find terms like denier and consensus as non scientific. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.. it's probably a duck. I like John Coleman's assessment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K56fms2VZTc

[evolvingape]

Thanks Chet, I think everyone here want's clean energy not only for the environment but to free ourselves from big oil.

I think your assessment is incorrect and naive. Nothing personal Jimbo 

http://campaignopposingpolicesurveillance.com/2017/05/14/another-spycop-outed-andy-coles-andy-davey/

'Davey was so well entrenched that he begun to produce the group's newsletter. Shortly afterwards he also transferred the mailing list onto a computer. We were in the era when some organisations still did not have their own PC or internet access and his IT expertise was considered invaluable. Spies are trained to exploit skills shortages like this, to ensure they become trusted and above suspicion.'