Exploring alternative methods to store energy from solar arrays.

[Chet K]

I had asked a question

solar energy {PV} and methods for storing excess energy to use at night or ??

I suppose my real question is the feasibility of pumping and storing water during the day for overnight use .

it would all be linear ,so scalable ...so lets put the Need at 1kw [I have a goal of 5KW [wish list goal]

How much "stored" water at what height... to supply continuous 1KW for 10hrs ? [obvious turbine efficiencies to consider.

Now for the real Kicker ,here for the water Pump we will explore Rob's [EA] HHOP pump A "Charge pump" or sorts.
so as to get some idea of pumping costs

if pumping costs are low enuff ....maybe we'll Jack the house up too    or consider pressure accumulators or other energy storage methods

so first the Pump test to see how Rob's HHOP pump compares to conventional high efficiency pumps .
@NOTE
I will absolutely be building this too.

[TinselKoala]

Store it in plants.
Plants only use light from the red and blue ends of the spectrum. The green color of plants represents light that is reflected, not used by the plants to grow.
But the PV uses the entire visible spectrum plus a little more around the edges to generate electricity.
So you use the PV output to drive grow-spectrum LEDs, essentially converting the light colors wasted by the plants into spectra that they can use to grow.
Pave over your greenhouse surfaces with panels that are PV arrays on one side and grow-spectrum LEDs on the other side, and grow biomass, tomatoes,  herbs, medicine etc. in your greenhouses at greater efficiency than when lit simply by unaltered sunlight.

(a pipe dream if I ever heard one...)

[TinMan]

How much "stored" water at what height... to supply continuous 1KW for 10hrs ? [obvious turbine efficiencies to consider.

Lot's

If you have 1 liter of water at 1 meter high,you have close to 10 joules of stored energy.

So,for 1 Kw hour,you need around 3600 kilojoule's
So 3600 x 1000 /10=360 000
So,you need 360 000 liters of water at a height of 1 meter to produce 1 Kw hour of power,minus system losses.

So,for 10 hours at 1Kw,an olympic pool full of water at a hight of 2 meters should do the trick .


Brad

[Chet K]

Tinsel
pipe dreams are good ,....besides.... growing crops and fish is a part of this plan [ultimately]

Brad
so a benchmark is set ??

a good start for discussions 

also  offers some perspective on just how powerful the energy density from the sun actually is...mind boggling

3 or 4 silly little solar panels can do the same work as an Olympic sized swimming pool 2 meters off the ground 

[Centraflow]

How about compressing CO2 to liquid in a tank, then pass it through an air heat exchanger on it's way to a turbine/generator (closed loop).

I wonder if this would increase the efficiency of the panels by 2 or 3 times

Just thinking allowed

Regards

Mike

PS. You would also get drinking water from the heat exchanger, would work great in a tropical type climate like mine.

[evolvingape]

Store it in plants.
Plants only use light from the red and blue ends of the spectrum. The green color of plants represents light that is reflected, not used by the plants to grow.
But the PV uses the entire visible spectrum plus a little more around the edges to generate electricity.
So you use the PV output to drive grow-spectrum LEDs, essentially converting the light colors wasted by the plants into spectra that they can use to grow.
Pave over your greenhouse surfaces with panels that are PV arrays on one side and grow-spectrum LEDs on the other side, and grow biomass, tomatoes,  herbs, medicine etc. in your greenhouses at greater efficiency than when lit simply by unaltered sunlight.

(a pipe dream if I ever heard one...)

Are you OK ? my friend.

[evolvingape]

hhop gen 2 hybrid is what you want for this project Chet.. 

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2288.msg51806#msg51806

Aim for a displacement chamber capable of 1 liter which is also 1 Kg and time how long it takes to pump to a reservoir at 1 meter. Building a replica of Graham's hhop gen 2 would work well with the addition of a shut off valve to convert it into a hybrid. Use any hho cell you like or already have but it must be capable of a pressure seal with the hhop pump system. You will not need more than a few atmospheres (1atm = 15psi) of pressure, put a pressure gauge in the liquid part of the system sump.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2288.msg51811#msg51811

Nice idea. Have you tried this to get an idea of what pump rates are possible vs current drawn.

I guess it would follow simple calculations based on gas evolution and liquid displacement. Just a matter of sizing then.

You can measure the electrical energy it takes to do this, eventually being supplied by your solar panels. You now have an electrical to gravitational potential energy store. (and a nutrient pump for your fishies and algae)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaculture

Some formulas for you to calculate what you need 

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2288.msg50712#msg50712

Because you are using the hybrid the two cycles are separated and you have the gas to burn as an input to another system, which might be fun because Mike said:

How about compressing CO2 to liquid in a tank, then pass it through an air heat exchanger on it's way to a turbine/generator (closed loop).

I wonder if this would increase the efficiency of the panels by 2 or 3 times

You can also increase CO2 gas pressure by heating it, and you have a potential hho torch as a turbine gas preheater before the compressor. If a plasma point from the hho can be generated (heat a solid catalyst) that the CO2 has to pass through further reactions may be possible and you might get a new fuel as a waste product from the turbine exhaust.

[evolvingape]

You can also increase CO2 gas pressure by heating it, and you have a potential hho torch as a turbine gas preheater before the compressor. If a plasma point from the hho can be generated (heat a solid catalyst) that the CO2 has to pass through further reactions may be possible and you might get a new fuel as a waste product from the turbine exhaust.

You will need a compressor stage for the air to feed the hho torch, with the Hydrogen and Oxygen sucked in via venturi, creating a plasma flame that will heat your solid catalyst.

The CO2 will be sleeved around the hho system, gaining increased pressure from the heat transfer to the cold gas. A small bypass (also by venturi) will direct CO2 through the reaction chamber.

Maybe Mike could tell us what products we could expect from this type reactor with what kind of solid heated catalyst ?

[Paul-R]

Try Electrolyte Flow (redox) batteries.

[evolvingape]

Flow batteries sure look interesting!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery

[Chet K]

I believe this was under 10 watts and it can pump [conservatively ] to just under 500 ft [I think 200psi was the cutoff for safety sake [dieseling or Auto ignition concerns]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqBq5aTvCOE

so will be building this one on this side of the pond... for input / output measurements [power in over head height]

perhaps just a pressure test will suffice?
any suggestions on this test appreciated
seems a wonderful and ingeniously simple unit for pumping energy into the gravitational field or perhaps other pressure storage methods?

and we also Have Mike N's SMD to perhaps supply the fuel !! [have to make this work or at least try .

Been wanting to play with this one for quite some time 

the 2.5 version is even more intriguing

[CITFTA]

Has anyone considered the Edison nickel iron battery.  From my understanding they are very low maintenance and unless physically damaged have an almost unlimited life.  Many of them have been in continuous use for over 20 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93iron_battery

[evolvingape]

I believe this was under 10 watts and it can pump [conservatively ] to just under 500 ft [I think 200psi was the cutoff for safety sake [dieseling or Auto ignition concerns]

6 Watts i think over about 6 or 7 minutes to reach 200 psi ? Video is long gone so cannot remember, sorry. 200 psi was the cutoff because that is the strongest spring I had in the dimensions that would fit the snapvalve governor assembly. This was a private video for friends demonstrating the snapvalve governor running on hho off Faraday electrolysis using my tube cell design, whose designs had been disseminated into the energy research community years previous. take a breath..

so will be building this one on this side of the pond... for input / output measurements [power in over head height]

perhaps just a pressure test will suffice?
any suggestions on this test appreciated

You can simulate 200 psi of pressure head with a valve to atmosphere whose cracking pressure is 200 psi. Measure the drips per hour at 6W 

and we also Have Mike N's SMD to perhaps supply the fuel !! [have to make this work or at least try .

Been wanting to play with this one for quite some time 

Mike's SMD could potentially be sleeved inside a hhop system, producing an ethane product.. liquid or gas fuel output for use as a source into another system.. we are cautiously talking about it due to the unprecedented surveillance threat we live under.

the 2.5 version is even more intriguing

being able to exploit the liquid to gas phase transition

[Chet K]

EA
Quote

being able to exploit the liquid to gas phase transition

----------------------------------------

I suppose liquid to Steam should also be looked at  , member Kampen did a parabolic solar array to superheat oil/water a few years back.



RE batteries: 35 year old tech.. zinc /chloride
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp25EqyKlww

[evolvingape]

EA
Quote

being able to exploit the liquid to gas phase transition

----------------------------------------

I suppose liquid to Steam should also be looked at  , member Kampen did a parabolic solar array to superheat oil/water a few years back.



RE batteries: 35 year old tech.. zinc /chloride
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp25EqyKlww

I am chuckling to myself here Chet..  That wasn't a cryptic message, it was an unfinished post that I hastily clicked send on when the doorbell went, my mate was early! He is never early  So anyways, knowing I wouldn't get back till today I sent it out unproofread hoping it would get you thinking along the right lines.. and what did you do ? almost understood! That's progress my friend! 

hhop gen 2 as you know primed the vertical exhaust tube by putting electrical energy into the cell and using the liquid to hho gas volume differential to do work displacing the water directly below it. The hho is then combusted rapidly creating a very fast overpressure situation that squirted water out, and the resultant vacuum created oscillations also exploiting the volume differential phase transition of hho gas to water. Then the process oscillated (as in Grahams video of his hhop gen 2) until the energy input to the system was dissipated.

The hhop gen 2 hybrid does not have an internal combustion cycle but simply allows atmospheric pressure to equalise the system at full stroke displacement, using a valve instead of an ignition system. As a consequence you have lost the ability to draw water from below the defining boundary plane as there is no vacuum because no gas to liquid phase transition took place. The gas has been released for use as an input to another system.

This next system is where the gas is combusted by burning a hho torch to heat the water and give it specific heat (up to boiling point). Latent heat is energy beyond the specific heat boundary and phase transition occurs creating in this case a pseudo gas (steam). The hybrid is designed to desalinate water and then pump it up high to a reservoir, allowing a gravity feed drip irrigation system using micro bore pin pricked tubing.

A bladder type hydro pneumatic boundary may work well in the hybrid (if hho gas is found to contaminate the condensate pumped at boundary plane contact), with the gas on one side and pumping the condensate up the hill. A heat exchanger like a combi boiler uses would be necessary to condense the steam and recover the latent heat energy (upon condensing to liquid from (pseudo gas steam) for hho torch water preheating.

[Paul-R]

Flow batteries sure look interesting!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery

Do you reckon it might be a practicable proposition to build one?

[evolvingape]

Do you reckon it might be a practicable proposition to build one?

Yes, but you would have to combine flow battery technology with SMD and hhop technology.

[evolvingape]

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2288.msg49649#msg49649

How to Grow Food in the Middle of a Desert Using Seawater and solar panels and a neat little pump system

http://gizmodo.com/how-to-grow-food-in-the-middle-of-a-desert-using-seawat-1592148078

As conventional sources of clean water dry up, we're looking ever farther, wider, and deeper. In a long feature on unusual sources of water, Nature leads us somewhere especially unexpected—into the middle of a desert. The Sahara Forest Project wants to prove we can green the desert, turning barren land into oases of cucumbers and melons. And the water? It'll come from the sea.

The unusual idea is made possible by greenhouses, but not greenhouses as you know them. Instead of trapping heat, the Sahara Forest Project's greenhouses are cool and moist. Here's how Science described the pilot facility in the Qatar last year:

    At one end, salt water is trickled over a gridlike curtain so that the prevailing wind blows the resulting cool, moist air over the plants inside. This cooling effect allowed the Qatar facility to grow three crops per year, even in the scorching summer. At the other end of the greenhouse is a network of pipes with cold seawater running through them. Some of the moisture in the air condenses on the pipes and is collected, providing a source of fresh water.

Surprisingly, moist air leaking out from the greenhouse encouraged plants around the buildings, too. While cucumbers and tomatoes grew inside the greenhouse, arugula and barley could grow right outside.

The facility also takes advantage of one natural resource in abundance in the desert: sun. Solar panels generate electricity for the pump systems, and excess electricity can go toward desalination of additional seawater.

Last year, the Sahara Forest Project harvested the first crops from its pilot location in the Qatari desert. Their yield was comparable to a traditional greenhouse of the same size, and now they're aiming to build a larger test facility in Jordan. As all new tech goes, this is currently an incredibly expensive way to grow some salad. That could change, though, especially in an increasingly thirsty world.

The piece over at Nature has several other slightly crazy but somehow plausible water ideas, like harvesting fog and reviving 2,000-year-old waterworks. Just another reminder that getting clean water is a lot more complicated than turning on your faucet.

Electrolysis of Salt Water

http://aquarius.nasa.gov/pdfs/electrolysis.pdf

Growing food in the desert: is this the solution to the world's food crisis?

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/nov/24/growing-food-in-the-desert-crisis

[evolvingape]

Here you go Chet.. the Dosatron nutrient pump for your fishy and algae farm! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ0ZEIJim-A

[evolvingape]

Here you go Chet.. the Dosatron nutrient pump for your fishy and algae farm! 

You can pick up a Dosatron in America on Amazon.com:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G0PVXAY/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=toysyoulike-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B01G0PVXAY&linkId=41a81f9c33523b94d13fa47f5dfc89fd

They say there is no need for electricity and the system is powered by water pressure. If that water pressure is created by an electrical pump at the pumping station.. it still needs electricity! just not user supplied directly.. sink science!

You can use a hhop hybrid as a mini pumping station powered from a solar panel, and add a nutrient mixing valve if you wish, or just buy a Dosatron and plumb it on the water output as an accessory.

There are a few off the shelf siphon or flow mixers you can repurpose at a very reasonable price:

https://www.amazon.com/Jacks-Classic-70010-Hozon-Siphon/dp/B003TPBF1Q/ref=pd_sim_86_5?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B003TPBF1Q&pd_rd_r=JBS3SZTSS5RTXWPY4Y6C&pd_rd_w=aTzeR&pd_rd_wg=s84Os&psc=1&refRID=JBS3SZTSS5RTXWPY4Y6C

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01IROS5ZW/ref=psdc_553968_t2_B003TPBF1Q

[evolvingape]

8.1 Hydraulic Systems

http://www.free-ed.net/sweethaven/MechTech/Automotive01/AutomotiveSystems03_Files.asp?iNum=81

The extensive use of hydraulics to transmit power is due to the fact that a properly constructed hydraulic system possesses a number of favorable characteristics:

    A hydraulic system eliminates the need for complicated systems using gears, cams, and levers.
    Motion can be transmitted without the slack inherent in the use of solid machine parts.
    The fluids used are not subject to breakage as are mechanical parts.
    Hydraulic system mechanisms are not subjected to great wear.

If the system is well adapted to the work it is required to perform and is not misused, it can provide smooth, flexible, uniform action free of vibration and unaffected by variation of load. Hydraulic systems can provide widely variable motions in both rotary and straight-line transmission of power. The need for control by hand can be minimized. In addition, they are economical to operate.

Basic Principles of Hydraulics

The basic principles of hydraulics are few and simple:

    Liquids have no shape of their own.
    Liquids will NOT compress.
    Liquids transmit applied pressure in all directions.
    Liquids provide great increase in work force.

Pascal's Law

The foundation of modern hydraulics was established when Blaise Pascal, a French scientist, discovered the fundamental law for the science of hydraulics.

Pascal's law states that pressure applied to a confined liquid is transmitted undiminished in all directions and acts with equal force on all equal areas, at right angles to those areas.

A spring loaded hydraulic accumulator could be charged by a hybrid to many multiples of atmospheric pressure (15 psi = 1 atm)

[evolvingape]

If you were to re-purpose a hydraulic spring accumulator principle to the hybrid then you would move the spring to the lower water chamber.

Energy would be stored in the spring and so will be released when the gas in the top chamber is ejected. This solves the problem of the hybrid not being able to eject gas into the hho flame reservoir.. if the reservoir is at a higher gas pressure than the hybrids gas chamber. The spring pressure exerted on the piston will pump the gas into the reservoir (which supplies the hho torch).

Water is still pumped as normal by the gas pressure but before this happens the gas must overcome the piston and spring resistance. Some of the potential energy stored in the spring can be directed toward drawing water into the chamber speeding up the refill for the next pump.

This is an example of the accumulator built into the hhop system 

[evolvingape]

Here is a drawing of the hhop hybrid with a spring assisted solid piston 

[evolvingape]

Here is a drawing of the hhop hybrid with an automatic snapvalve governor assembly fitted.

The snapvalve triggering pressure should be set to equal the sum of the piston spring pressure resistance (solid frame of reference), and the liquid pressure resistance (liquid frame of reference).

If your snapvalve is set to 2 atmospheres (30 psi) then 1 atm (15 psi) would compress the spring piston and 1 atm (15 psi) would open the liquid outlet valve (cracking pressure of valve is therefore 15 psi).

This setup will give you the ability to have the snapvalve gas outlet at 2 atm above natural atmospheric pressure, therefore a mass transfer would take place into your hho flame gas feed reservoir.

You have seen me do this at 200 psi which is over 13 atmospheres of pressure without igniting the hho so you may have a lot of headroom to play with. I would caution you to keep the volume of liquid water pumped on each cycle small to lessen the chance that it might cook off with a large volume of compressed hho gas, the governor will automatically increase the cycle rate of the system to account for the loss in volume of liquid water pumped into the accumulator energy storage system.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2288.msg65638#msg65638

[evolvingape]

Spring Load Definition

Your spring's working loads determine a specific amount of force at a desired loaded height.

Spring Rate Definition

The constant amount of force you need to travel ONE inch or millimeter of distance.

https://www.acxesspring.com/spring-load-and-rate.html/

As it was explained in the definitions above, spring load determines a specific amount force or pressure at a specific loaded height while spring rate determines the rate of force you will need in order to travel one unit of measurement (in. or mm.). You can use either one to calculate the other; rate to calculate working loads and working loads to calculate rate. The formulas and diagrams are explained in simple examples below.

Spring Load

This example shows you how spring load works and how it is derived from spring rate. You have a spring with a free length of 5 inches and your spring rate is of 7.5 pounds of force per inch (lbf/in). This spring needs to reach a solid height of 3 inches, therefore having to travel 2 inches. To calculate the working load of how much force you'll need in order to reach a solid height of 3 inches, you'll have to multiply the distance traveled by the spring rate as shown in the following formula and diagram.

Spring Load Formula

Rate (Travel) = Load
k(T)=L

7.5(2)=L
15 = L

Spring Rate

Spring rate is a calculation more complex to calculate; you'll find the full formula at the bottom of this article. You can calculate your required spring rate based on your spring's working loads too though. Take the values from the previous example. This way, you may also confirm the results you received on the previous formula. The distance traveled was of 2 inches while the load was 15 pounds of force. To calculate the required spring rate to meet these working loads you'll have to divide the load by the distance traveled as shown in the following diagram and formula.

Spring Rate Formula

Rate = Load ÷ Travel
k= L ÷ T

k = 15 ÷ 2
k = 7.5 lb/in

Full Spring Rate Formula

k = Gd^4 / [8^3D na]
G = E / 2(1 + V)
d = D outer - d

Formula Variables

    Spring Wire Diameter = d
    Spring Outside of Spring = D outer
    Mean Diameter Of Spring = D
    Young's Modulus of material = E
    shear modulus of material = G
    Spring Constant = K
    Active Coils = na
    Poisson ratio off Material = V

I will add this link about the same subject because they made me chuckle!

https://www.eatondetroitspring.com/spring-rate-vs-load-rate/