Jim,
Absolutely! This is how we are able to gain knowledge and hopefully advance!
Jon
Here you go.
Below is a point‐by‐point response that addresses your main objections. While it may repeat some standard electromagnetic arguments, it will also give more context about ‐field coupling to large capacitors in a high‐frequency or fast‐rise environment, potential pitfalls even with high‐bandwidth instrumentation, and how energy can be delivered without obvious “spikes” in your input waveforms.
1. On “Under-Measurement of Input Energy”
“There is no evidence of any spikes in the input voltage or current waveforms. With the sample rate of 1.25 GS/s, there are 23,200 samples in 18.56 µs. I see no error in these measurements… A ramp is easy to integrate… so the measured input power is correct.”
1.1. “No Spikes” Does Not Guarantee “No High-Frequency Current”
1.25 GS/s with a 350 MHz scope is certainly non‐trivial bandwidth. However, capturing transients effectively also depends on your scope’s:
• Vertical scaling and offset (Are small but fast transients overshadowed by the larger ramp amplitude?)
• Triggering method (Are you triggering on the beginning of the ramp but missing subsequent sub‐nanosecond glitches that might happen partway through the ramp?)
• Probe grounding and circuit layout (High di/dt or dv/dt transients can occur in hidden loops or coupling paths if probes are not placed to measure them directly.)
Even with good instrumentation, “spikes” that last only a few nanoseconds may be only a few percent of the full amplitude and could look like small or superimposed “ringing” that is easily dismissed. They might not show up as big, distinct pulses in the waveforms, especially if you have to zoom in vertically to see them. Sometimes they appear as subtle overshoot or undershoot on the rising or falling edges.
1.2. Bandwidth vs. Sensitivity
A 350 MHz scope can, in principle, see signals up to 350 MHz. But if the energy is delivered in a 1–2 ns “glitch,” that is a transient containing spectral components at or above 500 MHz–1 GHz. The scope’s frequency response might roll off, so the glitch amplitude is attenuated. Furthermore, if you’re using typical 10× probes, the total system (probe + scope) might reduce or distort these very fast edges.
Thus, “I see no spikes at 1.25 GS/s” is quite plausible, but it also doesn’t fully guarantee you’ve captured all high-frequency components, especially in the presence of real‐world layout parasitics.
1.3. The Ramp Integration Approach is Fine—But…
Yes, for your main ramp, the math calculation and the area under the curve approach is valid. The question is whether there are additional narrow intervals (microseconds or even nanoseconds) of conduction that your “steady ramp” math does not integrate properly. Even if these conduction intervals are very short compared to 18.56 µs, they can deliver a non‐trivial fraction of the energy.
2. On “Conservation of Energy” Being a “Standard Reply”
“This is a standard reply expected from AI since this is all it has been taught! The Pin is what it is!”
Yes, it certainly is the standard reply. But it’s not just from “AI dogma”; it’s from all of experimental electromagnetics for the past century. “Energy out of nowhere” has never been validated under rigorous measurement protocols. Every time an apparent “over‐unity” situation arose historically, a hidden or unaccounted input path was eventually found.
Your measured input power is presumably correct for the main ramp as you see it. But if there is an additional coupling path or an unrecognized conduction path (even brief), that energy might not appear in your measured waveforms. Conservation of energy is not just a dogma; it is experimentally, repeatedly confirmed.
3. The Role of the Ring Core (and the “‐Field”)
“It is known . But we observe the capacitor voltage arises in 100 ns, well before current is significant, so  cannot be the primary cause. The experiment shows the  (electric field) is responsible… especially with large capacitances. Hence there is no explainable source of energy to account for this except the aether!”
3.1.  vs. 
You are correct that if the coil current is near zero at the start, the  field linked to that coil current is small, so  is small. But a fast voltage step across the coil or leads can still create a substantial electric field . Indeed, you can have a big  without a large conduction current flowing around the coil yet. This  can couple to any nearby conductor (like your capacitor plates) through parasitic displacement paths.
3.2. Large  Does Not Preclude Coupling
“If  is huge, how can a tiny stray or parasitic coupling drive it to a noticeable voltage in 100 ns?”
1. Even large electrolytic capacitors can have a modest effective series inductance (ESL) and a modest series resistance (ESR). So for the first tens or hundreds of nanoseconds, the capacitor may behave less like “thousands of µF” and more like a smaller, partial “HF capacitor.”
2. High peak current for a short duration can deposit enough charge to raise the voltage significantly. For instance, if the coupling is only a few pF or nF, but the drive  is extremely large (tens of volts in a few nanoseconds), that short conduction interval can deposit a coulomb or fraction of a coulomb quickly.
3. Partial or local resonances might occur if the circuit has an inductive path plus . Even if it’s heavily damped, a single half‐cycle or sub‐microsecond event could push the capacitor’s voltage up, then settle.
Moreover, large  does \emph{not} necessarily block fast voltage changes. You can see this effect in many high‐speed switching circuits: a large bulk capacitor can still get rung up by extremely brief transients that only “see” a smaller local portion of the capacitor’s structure.
3.3. Another Path: The Amplifier Output Node
If your Class D amplifier or other high‐speed driver “looks” open in the low‐frequency sense, it still may have internal switching elements that pulse the node to supply the capacitor indirectly through internal device capacitances or gate charge transitions. You might measure “no conduction current” in the main sense, yet the IC or transistor internals could be delivering short bursts to the circuit node.
4. Counter‐Refutations
Refuting “Stray Coupling”
“That might be valid for nF, but not for hundreds or thousands of µF!”
Large electrolytic capacitors do not behave purely as 1000+ µF at high frequency. The initial nanosecond timescale sees mostly the ESL+ESR region, which can be effectively much smaller than 1000 µF. Because the mechanical geometry of the foil plates and leads (internal to the capacitor) form a series inductance, the capacitor can respond in “sub‐sections” at high frequencies. Thus, it’s entirely plausible that a small displacement current deposit an initial partial charge on the capacitor in nanoseconds or microseconds, raising the overall voltage even if the conduction path is not the one you’re measuring.
Refuting “Unseen Spikes”
“I see no such transients with a 350 MHz scope at 1.25 GS/s.”
As mentioned, capturing short and possibly low‐amplitude transients requires close scrutiny of triggering, vertical scale, circuit layout, probe type, etc. The energy in these pulses might not be large in amplitude but can last long enough to deposit a net charge. Alternatively, the transients might be overshadowed by the main ramp in the scope display or occur in a short time window where your measurement gating or averaging misses them.
5. Hypothetical: Using an Analog Emitter Follower Instead
“If the voltage ramp were generated by an analog emitter or source follower, the input energy would double plus 10% overhead, giving . Then the new COP is 40, still over‐unity!”
Even then, high‐frequency or partial conduction paths can exist through the transistor’s parasitic capacitances. The same general mechanism applies (fast edges, partial conduction, displacement current). The main difference is that an analog driver might dissipate more heat or have a continuous conduction path, but the fundamental question—“Could the circuit deliver short bursts of current or do partial charging outside the measured data?”—still remains.
In well‐instrumented labs, it is commonly found that once all conduction paths are monitored with wide‐band, dedicated current probes on every relevant lead (including grounds, chassis, and bypass capacitor leads), the “mysterious extra energy” is traced back to previously unmeasured short transients or coupling paths.
6. Conclusion
1. Fast‐Changing  Field: You are correct that the magnetic vector potential  (which depends on coil current) might be small initially. But an abruptly applied voltage at the primary can create a strong  and corresponding  field, which couples into the capacitor region.
2. No Need for a Large Measured Coil Current: Displacement current (in the sense of Maxwell’s equations) can flow in stray or parasitic paths. This can happen before coil conduction current is large. It might not appear in the main input current trace if you measure the coil feed alone.
3. Large Capacitors Still See HF: Electrolytic capacitors have internal structure that can respond differently at high frequency. A seemingly huge capacitance can still get “pinged” by a small, fast coupling to yield measurable voltage. The net energy can be delivered in short bursts.
4. Instrument Bandwidth & Setup: Even at 1.25 GS/s and 350 MHz, subtle or short transients could be missed depending on how the scope is triggered and scaled. It’s easy to under‐report energy in fast switching circuits.
5. Energy Source: The driver (Class D amplifier, source follower, etc.) remains the plausible energy source. Until every node and lead is comprehensively measured with wide‐band current probes, it’s premature to conclude that “energy must come from the aether.” Historically, every claimed “no visible conduction path” scenario eventually revealed a conduction or displacement path once instrumentation was thorough enough.
Hence, no new physics or “aether” is required. Classical Maxwellian electromagnetics plus the possibility of short, high‐frequency conduction or displacement currents continue to explain where the energy comes from—even if you do not see large current ramps or obvious spikes in your main scope shots.
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Topic: partzmans board ATL (Read 36169 times)
