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Question: Do you want to read more about F6FLT's theory of electrodynamics ?  (Voting closed: 2026-01-25, 00:02:38)

  • Yes
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    No
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Author Topic: Electromagnetic Archimedes' screw  (Read 19433 times)

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Brad,

I'm not sure I understood the configuration of your experiments correctly.

Either the brushes and the load are at rest and the disc is rotated, then the disc is slowed down, or the brushes rotate and the disc is fixed, but the load must rotate with the disc so that the experiment is symmetrical and the brushes are slowed down.

The current that causes the reaction can only be consumed when the load is connected in series in the part of the circuit that sees the other part rotating. This is why if you attach a capacitor between the rim and the center of the rotating disc, it will never charge (I checked it  :( ).

A magnet only acts here as an intermediary. It is as in the case of a dynamo where it acts as a mediator between electrical and mechanical energy: the magnet is not affected energetically. To the best of my knowledge, we cannot slow down the spin (nor the angular velocity of orbital electrons, the latter also contributing a little to the magnetic field).

The highlighted is what i am asking--where dose the equal and opposite force come from that slows down the disc ?

So with a normal generator,the equal and opposite force that bogs down the rotor of the generator when a load is applied comes from the field windings them self,which are physically fixed to the generator body. My question is-->what is the physical fixture for the equal and opposite force that bogs down the disc in the homopolar generator when a load is placed across the output ?.

We know it is not the magnets,as we can fix them to the disc,and it still generates power.
I know it is not the brushes,as i have run this experiment before,and no torque was applied to the brushes when a load was placed across the output.

Is it the produced magnetic field of the circuit that acts against the rotor that causes it to bog down.
If so,could we not just put a shield around the circuit to stop this magnetic field ?.


Brad


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The output circuit represents a 1-turn winding.  Have you ever noticed that shielding a 1-turn secondary winding in a transformer does not work?  This is the same...

It would if you cut off the magnetic path to that secondary.


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The highlighted is what i am asking--where dose the equal and opposite force come from that slows down the disc ?
...

A Faraday generator can be synthesized in the form of two half-circuits connected together by sliding contacts, both of which are at least partially surrounded by a common magnetic field B.

Let us take as a reference one of the half parts, we will consider it at rest, and the other moving relatively to it.

The moving part, say here the disk, passes through the magnetic field, thus producing an EMF generated by the Lorentz force along the radius between the two sliding contacts.

If the part at rest is connected to a load, then the EMF produces a current I. In the disk, the current I moves the charges along a radius between the two sliding contacts. These charges are subjected to the Lorentz force, which is transverse to the current, and applies in such a way that it opposes the mechanical force on the charges related to the rotation of the disc. This also results in a field B' opposite to B.



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A Faraday generator can be synthesized in the form of two half-circuits connected together by sliding contacts, both of which are at least partially surrounded by a common magnetic field B.

Let us take as a reference one of the half parts, we will consider it at rest, and the other moving relatively to it.

The moving part, say here the disk, passes through the magnetic field, thus producing an EMF generated by the Lorentz force along the radius between the two sliding contacts.

If the part at rest is connected to a load, then the EMF produces a current I. In the disk, the current I moves the charges along a radius between the two sliding contacts. These charges are subjected to the Lorentz force, which is transverse to the current, and applies in such a way that it opposes the mechanical force on the charges related to the rotation of the disc. This also results in a field B' opposite to B.

Thank you for the explanation  O0


Brad


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tExB=qr
See GFT's explanation of the homopolar generator.
   

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See GFT's explanation of the homopolar generator.

Who is GFT ?


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GFT is Willie Johnson Jr.

He developed a complete unified theory based on gyroscopic force.  I refer to it in my own efforts.

Just do a site search.  He only made a few posts here.
   
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The proton is 1830 times heavier then electron so there ought to be some differences.

I asked the question on a physics forum. It appears that the differences in inertia between electrons and protons can only be observed experimentally at optical frequencies and above. At RF frequencies, the time constants are too low compared to the speeds and enormous accelerations of both types of charges.

I also had some interesting information. In a dielectric like ferrites, atoms position themselves relative to each other because of the influence of their electronic clouds between them.
So when we think that Lorentz's force moves the electronic clouds in one direction, and the nucleus in the other, you think badly. In fact, whole atoms will also reposition themselves relative to each other, and then we understand much better why the current of positive charges can compensate for that of negative charges despite their different inertia, and why nothing is detected.



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We don't have the plans of either the TPU or the Kapanadze machine. The best method is therefore, in my opinion, to try to understand what the basic principle of operation might be.
Even if I don't think these two devices are overunity, it is possible that unusual effects may occur that surprise their builders.

All these devices show many coils that are clearly capacitively coupled, in addition to magnetic couplings, and simultaneously used with various frequencies. Could displacement currents in intercoil dielectrics cause unusual effects? The subject seems to me to have very little coverage in the academic literature.

It would join this thread. We notice that it is easy to pass a current through a dielectric, we obtain it between two plates, simply by applying a potential difference, it is the principle of the capacitor.
But have you tried to induce a current in a dielectric from the EMF of a variable magnetic field, and not from a potential difference?
Until today (maybe) I had tried and failed. For example, the immersion of the coil of an LC oscillator in water, a dielectric of high permeability (εr=80), shows no change when one would expect that the current induced in the water-dielectric would disturb either the amplitude or the frequency of the oscillator.
I only recently understood why. The EMF acts on both positive and negative charges, so on a loop, the symmetrical effects compensate each other perfectly, unlike the case of the capacitor where the displacement of charges in the dielectric is stopped at the plates of opposite polarities, creating asymmetry.

Could we then simulate this asymmetry by opposing two EMFs in two dielectric half-circuits, separated by two plates across which a voltage, such as that of a capacitor, would be recovered? See the attached schematic diagram (inductionInDielectric-Principle). Two U-shaped dielectrics are separated by two plates, and EMF of opposite direction are induced in each one, from two coils powered by currents of opposite direction. Each EMF is looped back through the diameter between plates (not shown in the diagram).
At the interface between the two dielectrics, where the displacement currents tend to oppose each other, the plates should recover a potential difference due to the opposition of the two EMFs.



I tried to highlight it experimentally, with a first rough experience. Two coils of about 100 turns of wire are laid over each half of a double U dielectric circuit (ferrite). Copper plates have been plated at the interface of the two dielectrics and are connected to the scope.
I inserted an aluminium foil connected to the ground (removed for the photo), between the coils and the ferrite, to prevent the probable electrical coupling between the coils and the plates.

The result seems positive. I'm clearly observing the signal on the monitor. If I change the direction of the current in a coil, the signal becomes 7 times weaker, but not zero because despite the aluminium screen, there is still a direct capacitive coupling between coils and plates (without the aluminium it is preponderant, we see almost no change).
There may still be experimental biases. A more convincing experiment remains to be done, I'm thinking about it.



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Are these electron bunches influenced more by the B/H field or more by the A field like in the Aharonov-Bohm effect ?
The electrons bunch because they are spin polarised, they act like tiny magnets and therefore endure a force if within a B field spatial gradient.  They get attracted to the point in the Fe where the field is a maximum, where there is an induced magnetic pole.  Since that pole is moving so does the electron bunch.
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The electrons bunch because they are spin polarised, they act like tiny magnets and therefore endure a force if within a B field spatial gradient.
...
Smudge

Hi Smudge,

Would you be aware of an homopolar generator based on this principle?


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Hi F6FLT,
No but elsewhere on this forum I suggested the TPU did this with the bunches driven round the loop at great speed acting like magnetic poles moving at great speed.  Then I offered the suggestion that movement through the Earth's scalar magnetic potential could conjure up forces.
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Hi F6FLT,
No but elsewhere on this forum I suggested the TPU did this with the bunches driven round the loop at great speed acting like magnetic poles moving at great speed.  Then I offered the suggestion that movement through the Earth's scalar magnetic potential could conjure up forces.
Smudge

I share this view about a force through the Earth's scalar magnetic potential (but weak, measurable?).

I found a new type of homopolar generator, very simple and very different from the Faraday disc on two main points, giving about half the voltage with the same magnet, and whose best explanation could be the electron spin in a magnetic gradient. Surprisingly, I found nothing about this kind of device, as if it was unknown. I need searching and testing more before I present it here.
The "electronic spin in a magnetic gradient" is therefore a hot topic for me, all informations are welcome. Thanks for your answer.


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I share this view about a force through the Earth's scalar magnetic potential (but weak, measurable?).

I found a new type of homopolar generator, very simple and very different from the Faraday disc on two main points, giving about half the voltage with the same magnet, and whose best explanation could be the electron spin in a magnetic gradient. Surprisingly, I found nothing about this kind of device, as if it was unknown. I need searching and testing more before I present it here.
The "electronic spin in a magnetic gradient" is therefore a hot topic for me, all informations are welcome. Thanks for your answer.

Here is one that is interested in what you have found :)


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Here is one that is interested in what you have found :)

Thanks for your interest, Ion. I will prepare the subject.


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The "electronic spin in a magnetic gradient" is therefore a hot topic for me, all informations are welcome.
As I see it if you have a rod of a ferromagnetic conductor (such as Fe) that has a longitudinal B field with a gadient, the conduction electrons will all be either spin up or spin down (i.e. none will be spin sideways).  With the dipole moment of each electron being uB (the Bohr magneton) each will endure a force Fx=uB.dBx/dx.  If there are more spin ups than spin downs then there will be a migration or a current flow.  If the rod is saturated so that there are no spin downs but still has an applied field gradient the force will be equivalent to an electric field of magnitude (uB/e).dBx/dx.  An increase in field of 1 Tesla above the saturation level from one end of the rod to the other will be equivalent to an applied voltage of 58 microvolts across the rod.  Of course whether that results in a current flow depends on whether there is an external circuit connected, otherwise it just means that the rod gets more electrons gathered at one end than at the other.  I have already suggested that an Fe etched to form an array of triangular shapes acting as flux concentrators can be connected in series to make a magnetic battery.
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It's turtles all the way down
As I see it if you have a rod of a ferromagnetic conductor (such as Fe) that has a longitudinal B field with a gadient, the conduction electrons will all be either spin up or spin down (i.e. none will be spin sideways).  With the dipole moment of each electron being uB (the Bohr magneton) each will endure a force Fx=uB.dBx/dx.  If there are more spin ups than spin downs then there will be a migration or a current flow.  If the rod is saturated so that there are no spin downs but still has an applied field gradient the force will be equivalent to an electric field of magnitude (uB/e).dBx/dx.  An increase in field of 1 Tesla above the saturation level from one end of the rod to the other will be equivalent to an applied voltage of 58 microvolts across the rod.  Of course whether that results in a current flow depends on whether there is an external circuit connected, otherwise it just means that the rod gets more electrons gathered at one end than at the other.  I have already suggested that an Fe etched to form an array of triangular shapes acting as flux concentrators can be connected in series to make a magnetic battery.
Smudge

What you write is interesting to me as the SM large 17inch TPU v1 (1996 ver)  uses heavy gauge iron wire around it's outside diameter. This is possibly wound over the top of vertical toroidal winds, such that it only contacts the outer portion of the vertical winds. Lets consider what effect this might have.

Regarding your magnetic battery idea, I did test this using mumetal foil pieces but could not detect an emf even with a very sensitive Kiethley uVolt meter. Maybe we need to modify the experiment.


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As I see it if you have a rod of a ferromagnetic conductor (such as Fe) that has a longitudinal B field with a gadient, the conduction electrons will all be either spin up or spin down (i.e. none will be spin sideways).  With the dipole moment of each electron being uB (the Bohr magneton) each will endure a force Fx=uB.dBx/dx.  If there are more spin ups than spin downs then there will be a migration or a current flow.  If the rod is saturated so that there are no spin downs but still has an applied field gradient the force will be equivalent to an electric field of magnitude (uB/e).dBx/dx.  An increase in field of 1 Tesla above the saturation level from one end of the rod to the other will be equivalent to an applied voltage of 58 microvolts across the rod.  Of course whether that results in a current flow depends on whether there is an external circuit connected, otherwise it just means that the rod gets more electrons gathered at one end than at the other.  I have already suggested that an Fe etched to form an array of triangular shapes acting as flux concentrators can be connected in series to make a magnetic battery.
Smudge

It's interesting but I realize that this can't be the explanation of my homopolar generator which outputs hundreds of mV instead of tens of µV.
I simply forgot that both spin produce opposing effects. Or could it be that in ferromagnetic metals under a magnetic field, the difference between spin-up and spin-down electrons would be augmented?







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It's interesting but I realize that this can't be the explanation of my homopolar generator which outputs hundreds of mV instead of tens of µV.
That 10's of µV applies to plain electron dragging by a non uniform field, it does not apply to the cylindrical homopolar generator which uses v X B.
Quote
I simply forgot that both spin produce opposing effects. Or could it be that in ferromagnetic metals under a magnetic field, the difference between spin-up and spin-down electrons would be augmented?
Exactly what happens and that augmentation is called spin polarization.  I'll dig out the formula relating magnetization to spin polarization.
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That 10's of µV applies to plain electron dragging by a non uniform field, it does not apply to the cylindrical homopolar generator which uses v X B.Exactly what happens and that augmentation is called spin polarization.  I'll dig out the formula relating magnetization to spin polarization.
Smudge

My generator is not based on the principle of the cylindrical homopolar generator. In this case, the voltage should be proportional to the diameter. But when the sliding contact is at the end of the axis instead of the cylinder surface, the same voltage is observed. I did the test with an axis terminated by a cone whose tip engaged in a curved support.
And the voltage is 50% that of a Faraday disc the size of the magnet instead of about 5% that it should be, because the diameter of the axis is 5.5% of the diameter of the disc / magnet.


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Hi All
Have any of you tried to use piezoelectric materials in magnetic fields, in order to use Lorentz force in dielectrics due to the mechanical displacement of charges?


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What means "NAR"?


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Nuclear Acoustic Resonance

was making me itchy that you received no answer !
   
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Nuclear Acoustic Resonance

was making me itchy that you received no answer !

Thanks, Chet!


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Any links to that NAR ?


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