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Author Topic: isothermically expanded water as a free heat source  (Read 227 times)
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some time ago posted on this forum (if memory serves by Peterae) was this clip by Bill Mollison which fascinated me .

https://youtu.be/-9NqqDL6bkk


If cool is created by the process of isothermally compression  as Bill tells us what of the other end of the scale  ? Does  isothermally expanded water create heat ? It seems to me yes and very effectively but by all means read experiment and make your own minds up.
The process explained quite a lot of the so called 'sonic water heater' devices for me. 

So I decided to make this contraption

http://dnp.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/b/b9/Davey%20044.jpg

Thats a carb jet you see fitted to the bottom likewise under that dome on top . There is a controlled 'throttled' vacuum involved here
I could of course make a video and claim 20x over unity or anything else for that matter . (Thats what Dr Jan Pajak claimed for Daveys heater)
Video's are the easiest thing to falsify and so I'm not going to do that - rather explain how and why I made this thing . I have already outlined how this thing works to a friend of mine - Jim. so rather than rewrite everything I'll take the liberty of copy and paste the email I sent him.


Hi Jim I think your going to enjoy this  anyway I'd like your thoughts on the latest bit of investigation I have been working on . I decided to revisit an old chestnut with my own methods which tend to be very different from other investigators simply because I tend to focus on the researcher and not until much later the machine.
It so happens that this particular guy was a WW2 spitfire fighter pilot involved with a squadron composed of volunteer pilots from the British colonies.
Unlike British nationals the colonial fighters were not conscripted, the 602 squadron suffered  a 50% attrition rate during the bitter fighting during the period now known as "The battle of Britain" as these islands stood alone against the axis powers.  Peter was an accomplished pilot with guile and cunning and obviously gifted with some lady luck ! - He survived.




                                                         602 spitfire Squadron

Peter was also an accomplished musician playing sax ,trumpet and keyboards solo and with Dance bands of the era

 
 
                                              602 squadron showing off their spitfires

You might wonder Jim why an obscure Spitfire pilot has caught my attention , let me first introduce you to one of the patents that actually was issued to Peter Davey before we look one that was never going to be issued until hell froze over . (and why)



This is a diagram of Peters first water heater taken from Patent NZ92428 issued in 1950 it is somewhat reminiscent of an old beehive trimmer . (anyone remember them?)  Mains was connected and it heated water reasonably efficiently. One of the first rules for patenting anything Jim is 'keep it secret' Peter would have been very aware of that. He further developed the crude heater shown in 1950 unfortunately he broke the unwritten law. He went flying well over unity ! It was Peters intension to leave his invention as a legacy for his family but as you can imagine a simple  COP>1 machine was never ever going to get a patent.
For over thirty years Peter's train just kept hitting the buffers. As a now sick man and in absolute desperation he committed the cardinal sin - He showed his contraption on National television in the hope that an investor would assist him in pressuring the patent office. He attempted to hide the operation of the heater (very successfully as it happens) I guess you don't avoid packs of ME109s  without a certain amount of guile.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFKxJyFiNvc


There is an awful lot going on here Jim and nothing much to do with spoons ! at least not directly, very soon after I watched this clip I put two stainless steel spoons together in a jam jar full of water and plugged it into 240 v mains. It was never meant for public viewing but I did point a web cam at it, The meter is switched to 10 A full scale deflection. A little boring but its not meant to be entertainment ! (a pity I didn't have a mic ,the sounds amazing when you close that gap) closing the gap also gives a better capacitor  C= A/D
NB - 1/  Unlike resistive heating its far from a straight line graph. (you've gotta walk that tight rope)
        2/ A thing I very foolishly missed that's really important is when the waters boiling furiously the current draw drops away to almost zero, watch it yourself although the needles not easy to see you''  you can see it in the mirror an the back of the meter scale.

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teAksvLyaJ0&index=30&list=UU-6Xkt8OXH0ThIeetHov04A


I'm going to go over this contraption , I love what this guys done . what of water? is it an insulator or a conductor ? Have I just made a very good capacitor ?


https://www.scienceabc.com/pure-sciences/do-you-think-that-water-conducts-electricity-if-you-do-then-youre-wrong.html


keep at the back of your mind Jim - your not particularly interested in 'water' rather whats inside the bubbles of 'boiling water'
which seems to make an excellent di-electric and terrific capacitor . anyway to continue -

You saw water boiling furiously whilst drawing little or no current and  little or no current = little or no power !! now consider putting an indirect heating coil around a container boiling just like that and feeding a heating radiator.
Ah Oh dear  we seem to have broken the law already Jim - shame ! Peter went much further and I love the crude engineering and cunning.
here then is the amazing truth just as the reporter says " as soon as the contraption touches water it boils" instantly (almost) Lol I wish I had the maths to make simple pressings of this machine and scale it - Perhaps you can ?
So here's what Peter's done . You have seen that when boiling no current is consumed here then is the twist , At what temperature does water boil ? 100deg C ? It very much depends Jim on air pressure watch what happens up Everest . (for instance)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lyqFkFsH28

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html

so at what temperature would water boil in a vacuum or partial vacuum ? and just how did peter create a vacuum ?
Let me invite you to watch these demonstrations for school children Jim because together they show just what Flight Lt Peter Daish Davey devised , I think when I put the pieces together for you you'll be an admirer too.

https://youtu.be/j0TQxYemrgg

Do you start to get the picture I wonder ? to offer a clue when the distance between those spoons (remember the spoons ?) is closed right up the water boils locally and pretty much instantly ,
Watch then what happens to water in low air pressure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5mkf066p-U

The players are all now on the stage Jim -  lets see how Peter fitted them to their parts, when boiling little or no current is flowing is key.


Do you see at the bottom of the bulb were the flat plate is welded to the stainless steel ball ? look carefully at the center of that plate . Do you see the  rust ?







That Jim is a hole right through the plate and into the ball itself. Its a small hole because the ball is a controlled vacuum. there are some more even smaller holes under the cap on top of the ball to control the vacuum/pressure.
just the other side of that hole inside the ball is the positive plate, the ball itself being negative (or ground) which is the same thing. Watch the video again as Peter puts this contraption in water again, notice how he hesitates - a small amount of  water is boiling between the plates and the ball is quickly filled with steam . Peter then puts the whole thing into the water, The steam condenses and a partial vacuum is formed. The sequence is formed. watch again as Peter hesitates dipping the ball into water -
steam is formed pretty much instantly - the ball is plunged in a vacuum is formed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFKxJyFiNvc

Clever little shit don't ya think ? here are some video's and links in support and akin to this system

First from the school of Ronald Brandt (Tesla's last assistant who took refuge at Witts )


 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZoiY3FvxKo


Jim Griggs

https://youtu.be/uaVqxXsQsSQ


And of course water boiling with ridiculous ease at low pressure using plates . very low voltage and milli amps


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msr0TOHuAS8&index=7&list=UU-6Xkt8OXH0ThIeetHov04A


If It helps Jim here's a rough sketch of the construction of that 'magic ball' (if my scribble helps )

http://dnp.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/b/b9/sketch of ball.jpeg

now to ponder how to get at the physical dimensions such that they can be scaled
there are some draw backs to this system 'as is'  - its really only good for a fixed quantity of water (and one shot) and the system gets less efficient as the bulk of the water gets close to boiling (loses the ability to condense the steam)
I'm assuming this is why the WITTS version is a  carefully measured amount of water, over a very  specific time . perhaps with some thought it can be advanced to cycle -  . -- Kind regards Duncan 
« Last Edit: 2019-07-11, 17:34:00 by Duncan »


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   

Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3510


Buy me some coffee
some time ago posted on this forum (if memory serves by Peterae) was this clip by Bill Mollison which fascinated me .

https://youtu.be/-9NqqDL6bkk


If cool is created by the process of isothermally compression  as Bill tells us what of the other end of the scale  ? Does  isothermally expanded water create heat ? It seems to me yes and very effectively but by all means read experiment and make your own minds up.
The process explained quite a lot of the so called 'sonic water heater' devices for me. 

So I decided to make this contraption

http://dnp.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/b/b9/Davey%20044.jpg

Thats a carb jet you see fitted to the bottom likewise under that dome on top . There is a controlled 'throttled' vacuum involved here
I could of course make a video and claim 20x over unity or anything else for that matter . (Thats what Dr Jan Pajak claimed for Daveys heater)
Video's are the easiest thing to falsify and so I'm not going to do that - rather explain how and why I made this thing . I have already outlined how this thing works to a friend of mine - Jim. so rather than rewrite everything I'll take the liberty of copy and paste the email I sent him.


Hi Jim I think your going to enjoy this  anyway I'd like your thoughts on the latest bit of investigation I have been working on . I decided to revisit an old chestnut with my own methods which tend to be very different from other investigators simply because I tend to focus on the researcher and not until much later the machine.
It so happens that this particular guy was a WW2 spitfire fighter pilot involved with a squadron composed of volunteer pilots from the British colonies.
Unlike British nationals the colonial fighters were not conscripted, the 602 squadron suffered  a 50% attrition rate during the bitter fighting during the period now known as "The battle of Britain" as these islands stood alone against the axis powers.  Peter was an accomplished pilot with guile and cunning and obviously gifted with some lady luck ! - He survived.




                                                         602 spitfire Squadron

Peter was also an accomplished musician playing sax ,trumpet and keyboards solo and with Dance bands of the era

 
 
                                              602 squadron showing off their spitfires

You might wonder Jim why an obscure Spitfire pilot has caught my attention , let me first introduce you to one of the patents that actually was issued to Peter Davey before we look one that was never going to be issued until hell froze over . (and why)



This is a diagram of Peters first water heater taken from Patent NZ92428 issued in 1950 it is somewhat reminiscent of an old beehive trimmer . (anyone remember them?)  Mains was connected and it heated water reasonably efficiently. One of the first rules for patenting anything Jim is 'keep it secret' Peter would have been very aware of that. He further developed the crude heater shown in 1950 unfortunately he broke the unwritten law. He went flying well over unity ! It was Peters intension to leave his invention as a legacy for his family but as you can imagine a simple  COP>1 machine was never ever going to get a patent.
For over thirty years Peter's train just kept hitting the buffers. As a now sick man and in absolute desperation he committed the cardinal sin - He showed his contraption on National television in the hope that an investor would assist him in pressuring the patent office. He attempted to hide the operation of the heater (very successfully as it happens) I guess you don't avoid packs of ME109s  without a certain amount of guile.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFKxJyFiNvc


There is an awful lot going on here Jim and nothing much to do with spoons ! at least not directly, very soon after I watched this clip I put two stainless steel spoons together in a jam jar full of water and plugged it into 240 v mains. It was never meant for public viewing but I did point a web cam at it, The meter is switched to 10 A full scale deflection. A little boring but its not meant to be entertainment ! (a pity I didn't have a mic ,the sounds amazing when you close that gap) closing the gap also gives a better capacitor  C= A/D
NB - 1/  Unlike resistive heating its far from a straight line graph. (you've gotta walk that tight rope)
        2/ A thing I very foolishly missed that's really important is when the waters boiling furiously the current draw drops away to almost zero, watch it yourself although the needles not easy to see you''  you can see it in the mirror an the back of the meter scale.

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teAksvLyaJ0&index=30&list=UU-6Xkt8OXH0ThIeetHov04A


I'm going to go over this contraption , I love what this guys done . what of water? is it an insulator or a conductor ? Have I just made a very good capacitor ?


https://www.scienceabc.com/pure-sciences/do-you-think-that-water-conducts-electricity-if-you-do-then-youre-wrong.html


keep at the back of your mind Jim - your not particularly interested in 'water' rather whats inside the bubbles of 'boiling water'
which seems to make an excellent di-electric and terrific capacitor . anyway to continue -

You saw water boiling furiously whilst drawing little or no current little or no current = little or no power !! now consider putting an indirect heating coil around a container boiling just like that and feeding a heating radiator.
Ah Oh dear  we seem to have broken the law already Jim - shame ! Peter went much further and I love the crude engineering and cunning.
here then is the amazing truth just as the reporter says " as soon as the contraption touches water it boils" instantly (almost) Lol I wish I had the maths to make simple pressings of this machine and scale it - Perhaps you can ?
So here's what Peter's done . You have seen that when boiling no current is consumed here then is the twist , At what temperature does water boil ? 100deg C ? It very much depends Jim on air pressure watch what happens up Everest . (for instance)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lyqFkFsH28

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html

so at what temperature would water boil in a vacuum or partial vacuum ? and just how did peter create a vacuum ?
Let me invite you to watch these demonstrations for school children Jim because together they show just what Flight Lt Peter Daish Davey devised , I think when I put the pieces together for you you'll be an admirer too.

https://youtu.be/j0TQxYemrgg

Do you start to get the picture I wonder ? to offer a clue when the distance between those spoons (remember the spoons ?) is closed right up the water boils locally and pretty much instantly ,
Watch then what happens to water in low air pressure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5mkf066p-U

The players are all now on the stage Jim -  lets see how Peter fitted them to their parts, when boiling little or no current is flowing is key.


Do you see at the bottom of the bulb were the flat plate is welded to the stainless steel ball ? look carefully at the center of that plate . Do you see the  rust ?







That Jim is a hole right through the plate and into the ball itself. Its a small hole because the ball is a controlled vacuum. there are some more even smaller holes under the cap on top of the ball to control the vacuum/pressure.
just the other side of that hole inside the ball is the positive plate, the ball itself being negative (or ground) which is the same thing. Watch the video again as Peter puts this contraption in water again, notice how he hesitates - a small amount of  water is boiling between the plates and the ball is quickly filled with steam . Peter then puts the whole thing into the water, The steam condenses and a partial vacuum is formed. The sequence is formed. watch again as Peter hesitates dipping the ball into water -
steam is formed pretty much instantly - the ball is plunged in a vacuum is formed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFKxJyFiNvc

Clever little shit don't ya think ? here are some video's and links in support and akin to this system

First from the school of Ronald Brandt (Tesla's last assistant who took refuge at Witts )


 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZoiY3FvxKo


Jim Griggs

https://youtu.be/uaVqxXsQsSQ


And of course water boiling with ridiculous ease at low pressure using plates . very low voltage and milli amps


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msr0TOHuAS8&index=7&list=UU-6Xkt8OXH0ThIeetHov04A


If It helps Jim here's a rough sketch of the construction of that 'magic ball' (if my scribble helps )

http://dnp.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/b/b9/sketch of ball.jpeg

now to ponder how to get at the physical dimensions such that they can be scaled
there are some draw backs to this system 'as is'  - its really only good for a fixed quantity of water (and one shot) and the system gets less efficient as the bulk of the water gets close to boiling (loses the ability to condense the steam)
I'm assuming this is why the WITTS version is a  carefully measured amount of water, over a very  specific time . perhaps with some thought it can be advanced to cycle -  . -- Kind regards Duncan

You do realise that the boiling temperature of water drops as vacuum increases.
You can boil water at room temperature under a good vacuum,but this will have no heat,the water will remain at room temperature.

Also,as the temperature of water rises,so dose it's resistive value,which is why you see a drop in current as the water temperature rises. And as the water boils between your two spoon's,some or most of the surface between the two spoons will be air bubbles,which results in an even further drop in current.


Brad


---------------------------
Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   
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Yes I realise that Brad, in fact its rather the point of the excercise . normally water heating is pretty much a straight line curve which can be used to extrapolate both ways - pretty much as explained here
https://elementsofheating.wordpress.com/2012/09/26/how-to-calculate-the-kw-required-to-heat-a-volume-of-water-in-a-particular-time/
This is no longer a straight line graph . water is also an excellent insulator / capacitor so surmise for a moment you have a very good capacitor (a perfect capacitor would use no energy at all) and yet still capable of vibrating the water (you can hear that happening and its a bit worrying to start with )
 I would like like someone elses take on this but I suspect this is heating with reactive current. (which isn't supposed to be possible)
Witts I'm guessing have taken that to the extream - using a much higher frequency and so much lower voltage and energy requirement
The ball I show actually cycles blowing steam out of the top vent (which is why that caps there It comes out at quite a lick.)
Its all adjustment (with the Jets and spacing ) but eventually it follows a very different curve to advantage. Fair to say I haven't seen anything like WITTS claim with a PP3 battery but neither do I discount it.
 Kind regards Duncan   


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1161
Isn't there something called "latent heat" that occurs when you get a phase change (like melting going from solid to liquid or boiling going from liquid to gas).   You have to add that extra heat energy to get the phase change during which the temperature remains constant.  So you can't expect a linear temperature rise.  You can store energy this way then recover it when the gas condenses or the liquid freezes.
Smudge
   
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Posts: 415
quite right Smudge In  'The book fourth phase of water' Gerald H Pollack investigates . Not really my MO though, I like bangs and pops and things that do what they shouldn't,- preferably  dramatically.
This contraption is really threading the needle . Peter Davey was a fine mathematician , he flew night time  pathfinder missions  and later solo 'air sea rescue '. celestial navigation wasn't (still isn't) easy. at four or five hundred MPH much harder I guess.
There is a problem with most peoples 'starting line' - Its free so it can't happen . I'm afraid thats wrong ! Its free but theres a physiological  block thats been forced into education,
Its expanded on here, in this award winning video
 
https://www.corbettreport.com/how-big-oil-conquered-the-world

I suggest we are trained to think and see , just like this . what I show is a glimpse of an alternative. Look out of your window millions of tons of water are suspended . do you know how thats defying gravity - NO
They are not just suspended, Its  a huge running  engine ! I'm sure this is just one little part of it thats been  tapped into
Its a huge - huge machine. - natures engine. our worlds engine.
I suggest for series resonance read - longitudinal wave and forget speed of light as a maximum . It isn't , still to keep it simple yes theres a phase change . to complicate it theres phases and dimentions missing - (they pop and go bang and make their presence felt)   
great to hear from you smudge - kind regards D





« Last Edit: 2019-07-11, 17:44:33 by Duncan »


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
Sr. Member
****

Posts: 312
If a 50Hz AC current flow between blades and a small gap filled with water , water is quickly heated. I wonder if this is possible with high frequency AC current also ?
   
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better still I suspect forrest. Forest - If I had to make a guess at this from what I have witnessed  I would suggest the WITTS thing is doing something just like that .
however I suspect rather than AC (RMS) its rather rapidly switched DC (an impulse) the idea as I read it is to hold that impulse very close to the condition known as 'series resonance' in this state maximum current is pulsing across the water whilst no power is consumed. P =VI cos Ø  as  cos Ø = 90 deg  no what is called (real power)is used and hence no (real ?) energy. although its a DC state it can still be made resonant hence 'sonic' keeps turning up .
sonic is after all a longitudinal wave which isn't supposed to exist in electrical theory or physics but of course it does .  you can bet the farm on it, you use it every time you turn your GPS on.
The longitudinal wave is much faster than the speed of light at 294000 miles /sec . It isn't taught and responds very differently to the laws we have relied on for nearly 200 years.
The variables available are the dielectric (changeable by pressure as Davey did ) and the physical size and shape of the capacitor plates which seem to be beautifully machined by someone in that WITTS place. 
The ball seems the ideal shape a/ to withstand the air pressure and b/ The reflected wave will not collide with the transmission .
as for the basic question will it work on DC here is a video of someone doing just that with a bridge rectifier

https://youtu.be/_iiWGel3q50

however the poster seems happy to state  "The old man from New Zealand was wrong" I don't think so!  there is no way to accomplish series resonance here  and so I doubt very much if this was metered it would be  COP > 1. (It really doesn't tell us anything apart from DC will heat the water)
Here is another researcher who has neglected the variable dielectric/pressure aspect and returned these
results as a pdf which you can download here -


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=14&ved=2ahUKEwij2Pb7y67jAhWmTxUIHfS8CrgQFjANegQIBRAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunityresearch.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D1093.0%3Battach%3D6256&usg=AOvVaw1jV6ToskRTfyx-I7bVor0w


although extremely efficient without varying the vacuum and so tuning to longitudinal (sonic) frequencies  I see no way this could go COP >1

Here is Peter tuning one of his sonic balls using current draw just as I showed earlier in the post







 It would seem from my reading forest that it took Peter some 15 years to get that spacing and pressure change correct . there must be a better way of changing the parameters . Vacuum pump and variable capacitor perhaps  -- I'll give it some thought .work in progress .

 


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 591
Quote
The longitudinal wave is much faster than the speed of light at 294000 miles /sec

What is the parameter of this wave and how is its speed measured?


---------------------------
"Chance favours only the prepared mind."  Louis Pasteur
   
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my simple explanation - The electromagnetic wave what we might commonly call a  radio wave is the result of sending electric power into a physically and electrically resonant condition - a tuned antenna.
There is a transform electric power is transformed into the electromagnetic wave . parallel resonance is used to both transmit and receive and convert the energy one way or  t'other .

however NB  there are two very different types of resonance involved in electrical work and the other resonance is called 'series resonance' That hasn't been used for transmission for well over a hundred years . It was the transmission method used by Tesla for his wireless systems along with the corresponding electrical effect which we also haven't engineered for over a hundred years .
As Tesla's court transcripts show as he defended his wireless patent - "my wireless is not an electromagnetic device" He's quite right it was an electrostatic wave . The speed of the electrostatic wave was a calculation by Tesla  - speed of light x Pi/2 . If you want a little more on the subject I might suggest this demonstration done a lot of years ago. Mores the pity most folks don't grasp whats being said here I hope you do. I've had to watch it many times


https://youtu.be/QKggql3aYkc


All the electrical field theory basically is a product of the Einstein /Lorentz force law . For years its been known there is a perfectly viable mathematical alternative

https://youtu.be/KFS4oiVDeBI 

kind regards Duncan


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 591

Tesla's patent concerns the coupling of LC resonant circuits in the near field (no propagation).
The near field is not a longitudinal wave, it is a common electric or magnetic field, shared between as many devices as desired, resulting from the superposition of the fields generated by the currents in each. It is also experimentally impossible to measure a velocity in this case, because there is no wavefront. Some thought they could do it (including me  :(), but they only measured phase shifts of oscillating fields, not speed of energy displacement.


---------------------------
"Chance favours only the prepared mind."  Louis Pasteur
   
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*****

Posts: 1161
Tesla's patent concerns the coupling of LC resonant circuits in the near field (no propagation).
The near field is not a longitudinal wave, it is a common electric or magnetic field, shared between as many devices as desired, resulting from the superposition of the fields generated by the currents in each. It is also experimentally impossible to measure a velocity in this case, because there is no wavefront. Some thought they could do it (including me  :(), but they only measured phase shifts of oscillating fields, not speed of energy displacement.
Hi F6,
I disagree with you there.  Much of my professional career involved "near field radar", i.e. using near fields (both electric and magnetic) to detect nearby objects.  Proximity fuzes for shells, bombs, missiles and torpedoes and mine detectors all came into my remit.  And I also had access to a time domain reflectometer (TDR) that put out a 50 pS step so I could accurately measure time responses, not phase responses (although I realize that you can decompose that step into Fourier components that each have a phase relationship).  My TDR could create an E field step with negligible B field emanating from an electric dipole, a B field step with negligible E field emanating from a magnetic dipole or an EM step fed into a 50 Ohm transmission line.  My work forced me to study the reactive wave impedance of near fields and how that impedance evolves with distance from the source antenna eventually becoming Z0 at long distances.  In all cases field propagation away from the source occurred at velocity c.  Energy propagation is a different matter since the energy stored in the near-field can appear to flow in both directions.

Smudge 
   
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