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Author Topic: Smudge's Papers  (Read 3522 times)

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Smudge,

Very interesting analysis.  Some of what you've explained seems to mesh
with what Turion tries to explain when he offers hints at how his OverUnity
Permanent Magnet Generator is able to output more electrical energy than
that which is input to drive it.

He and Bistander have had a comprehensive discussion that has been
ongoing for quite some time in several of the threads at EF.  This is one
of the threads.


Have you followed any of the  discussion?


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The animal mind ALWAYS reacts to what it does not understand. This is what sets dogs barking. If you are going to tell the truth, you are going to have to be okay with barking dogs, because they will harry your passage until you pass through town.
Les Visible - 27 February 2020
   

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Believing in something false doesn't make it true.
I also came to the same conclusion that Smudge's paper might be the answer to Dave's (Turion's) machine.  In fact one of the major problems he has had to overcome was the cores of his machine were getting so hot they were melting the coil forms and melting the insulation off the wires.  He had to add some cooling heat sinks with water running through them to solve that problem.

Thanks for the paper Smudge.  Very interesting reading.



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Just because it is on YouTube does not make it real.
   
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On this thread  https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3718.msg82080#msg82080 the ZPower device was discussed.  As this seems to have been demonstrated to produce its own power I have given it more consideration.  Here is my thoughts on the device where it seems worth doing some experiments with Al and Bi bimetallic contacts in magnetic fields.  Anyone up for this?

Smudge
   
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Smudge
as mentioned a new moderated board has been assigned for your work here
https://overunity.com/18493/cyril-smith-aka-smudge-builders-group/msg545857/#new

I did send a note to Chris [EMjunkie] yesterday that it would be a few more days to sort
out.[he mentioned he has persons interested in your experiments and musings

Just a heads up ,the ability to have a builders section in an open source forum which also has open membership and can be moderated in real time ...and you will also have  help [Still sorting that a bit]

a very good step forward IMO [ However at the end of the day it is your option...

with much gratitude and respect

Chet K
   

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On this thread  https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3718.msg82080#msg82080 the ZPower device was discussed.  As this seems to have been demonstrated to produce its own power I have given it more consideration.  Here is my thoughts on the device where it seems worth doing some experiments with Al and Bi bimetallic contacts in magnetic fields.  Anyone up for this?

Smudge

Smudge,

looking at your electromotive force table in the PDF, i wonder if not some other more available
elements can be used, like magnesium (+2.4V) and copper (-0.47V) yielding almost a 3V potential.

Itsu
   
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Smudge,

looking at your electromotive force table in the PDF, i wonder if not some other more available
elements can be used, like magnesium (+2.4V) and copper (-0.47V) yielding almost a 3V potential.

Itsu

Yes, I only considered Al and Bi because that is what the ZPower device uses.  Al and Cu should also be interesting and easy to find.  Got to watch the surface finish as the contact voltage changes drastically with oxidization or reaction with dampness.  Also impurities have a big effect.  There is something known as the magnetic Seebeck effect which suggests that even a static magnetic field could produce a voltage.  It would be interesting to see what happens if a neo magnet is held near one thermocouple of a pair, does that produce a small DC voltage?  Maybe the alternating field in the ZPower device is simply to get an AC voltage that can be stepped up to something useful.

Smudge
   

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Ok Smudge,   i have thrown together something quickly, not sure this is what you mean.

using 2 copper pipes and 2 alu pipes tightly fitted into each other forming 2 thermocouples in series.
Waving 2 strong neo's above one of the thermocouples only shows a 1mV DC pulse or signal on my fluke DMM.

Would you expect some more voltage or is this not what you was pointing at?
 
video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUimosuFhxo&feature=youtu.be

Itsu
   
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Thanks Itsu for doing that.  Actually you had three Al-Cu couples in series, plus two more dissimilar metal couples where the probes connected.  That 1mV is probably the induction due to movement of the magnet, you would get the same if you just had a length of wire.  I was looking for a change of DC voltage when the magnet is placed close and not moving, but your instrument is not sensitive enough for that..

Graham Gunderson built a DC amplifier that he kindly sent to me that increased the DC sensitivity of my oscilloscope so I could discern microvolts.  Surprisingly all metal to metal junctions exhibited voltage that changed with temperature, even the scope probe connections or croc clip connections.  But I never thought to see if a (constant) magnetic field at a junction also acted like a temperature change.  Sadly I no longer have any equipment.  Grumage has that DC amplifier, although he doesn't know it.  It was in a box of odds and ends that I took to him.

Grumage, if you can find a die-cast box with a BNC connector and two terminals on it, have a look inside to find a 9V pp3 battery (that may have leaked and ruined everything).  If you have it and it is OK would you be willing to send it to Itsu?  The two terminals were for twin wire cable with croc clips for connecting to the DUT.  The BNC connector was for connection to the scope.  There is also a knob for adjusting DC back off because the thing is highly sensitive and drifts with time and ambient changes.  I am sure Itsu will have hours of fun playing with this and will find that just the act of connecting with a croc clip heat transfer from the fingers causes measurable change.  That will definitely find the Al-Cu effect which will undoubtedly change with temperature and maybe even with the presence of a magnetic field.

Smudge   
   

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Hi Cyril.

The amplifier has been kept in a cool and dry environment since you dropped it off. Although the batteries are flat they haven't leaked.

Cheers Graham.


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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   

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Quote from: Smudge
Surprisingly all metal to metal junctions exhibited voltage that changed with
temperature, even the scope probe connections or croc clip connections.

Peltier Effect even at low temperatures?


---------------------------
The animal mind ALWAYS reacts to what it does not understand. This is what sets dogs barking. If you are going to tell the truth, you are going to have to be okay with barking dogs, because they will harry your passage until you pass through town.
Les Visible - 27 February 2020
   
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Ok Smudge,   i have thrown together something quickly, not sure this is what you mean.

using 2 copper pipes and 2 alu pipes tightly fitted into each other forming 2 thermocouples in series.
Waving 2 strong neo's above one of the thermocouples only shows a 1mV DC pulse or signal on my fluke DMM.

Would you expect some more voltage or is this not what you was pointing at?
 
video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUimosuFhxo&feature=youtu.be

Itsu
Would it be useful to machine the Al such that when the Cu is put into boiling water and the Al into iced water, you get a very firm grip between them. The snag is that youo'll never get them apart again.
   
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Hi Cyril.

The amplifier has been kept in a cool and dry environment since you dropped it off. Although the batteries are flat they haven't leaked.

Cheers Graham.
Hi Graham,

Glad you found it.  Now what is the best way forward?  I think this could be used to investigate whether the presence of a static magnetic field at a bi-metallic junction will alter the junction potential, however small that change may be.

The device has a built in low pass filter to get rid of noise and that has a time constant measured in seconds.  So for any measurement you have to wait a few seconds for the DC level to settle down, then adjust to zero.  Then if you touch the junction with your finger the heat transfer causes the voltage to change from zero, the amount of change depends upon the size (really the thermal capacity) of the junction.  I didn't envisage the use of large lumps of material as in Itsu's pipes, but since we are not looking for a temperature effect maybe size doesn't matter.  Bringing a magnet close to the junction will induce a voltage from that movement, so the meter/scope will go off scale.  You then wait to see whether the voltage returns to zero to see whether the presence of the static field has had an effect.  Because you are not sure that the small induced current during the magnet movement hasn't created an unwanted electro-chemical effect, like altering the contacting surfaces, you then remove the magnet and wait to hopefully see the voltage return to zero.   May need several runs to get the feel of things.   

Would you be interested in getting involved or would you rather send the amplifier to Itsu?  I can assure you that this will find a temperature effect at any bi-metallic junction, as Graham said these voltages are everywhere but we don't normally see them.   The ZPower devices uses Al and Bi and I guess that your workshop could have both tucked away in an odd corner.

Regards

Cyril
   

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Good morning Cyril.

I will gladly send on the " Gizmo " to Itsu.

Due to the present situation we seem to have found new purpose, my two youngest son's very active in the workshop building model IC engines. This was my own ( part time ) business for nigh on 30+ years.

Kind regards, Graham.



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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   

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Wonderful story Grum!  Having the ability to make things with precision
that actually work is very satisfying.  Never a dull or boring moment!


---------------------------
The animal mind ALWAYS reacts to what it does not understand. This is what sets dogs barking. If you are going to tell the truth, you are going to have to be okay with barking dogs, because they will harry your passage until you pass through town.
Les Visible - 27 February 2020
   
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Smudge
Thanks for the suggestions and opening the NMR topic

Respectfully
Chet

 

 
« Last Edit: 2020-05-26, 20:20:12 by Chet K »
   
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   Jumping in, climbing the learning curve - thanks for all this, Cyril and everyone!  O0
   
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FWIW the NMR topic was opened here on OUR
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3322.msg56207#msg56207
but came to an abrupt end for no good reason.

Smudge
   

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Smudge,

i saw the thermocouple tests on OU.com, so i tried something similar.

Nowadays most DMM's come with a temperature sensing capability, also some i have.

There is some setup box in which the thermocouple is plugged in and connected to the DMM.
I guess this setup box converts/filters some very small voltages to something to be read by the DMM, something like the amplifier box from Graham Gunderson i think.

 
So i used a strong neo magnet to see if the original single thermocouple saw any change (which it did) and then used my home made AL-CU double thermocouple connected to this setup box.

This last setup did not show any change when the magnet was stationary, only strong fluctuations when approaching or leaving this AL-CU thermocouple combo.

But there was some increase (2°) when the neo was placed on the original thermocouple coming with the DMM and a return to "normal" temperature when removed.

2 out of 3 DMM equipped with such a temp capability showed the increase (Voltcraft (2°) and Fluke 179 (1.5°), the el cheapo MG890G not).



Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyau5YyfCzo&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu
   
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Itsu,

Thanks for that.  It seems you could be on to something there, the thermocouple responded to the presence of a magnetic field in a manner equivalent to a 2 degree temperature rise.  Now I would really like to know whether the field direction relative to the dissimilar metals contact surfaces is important, and for that we need to know the geometry of that contact.  If the two dissimilar metal wires are twisted together the contact surface is a spiral, whereas if they are simply side by side it is not spiral.  The image below shows the difference.  Can you find out what the internals of the themocouple look like?

Another experiment to perform uses a changing magnetic field, and with your temperature measuring set up this would have to be a slowly varying change obtained from a solenoid (coil wound on ferrite rod) with applied current varied by hand.  The set up would have to be arranged such that the normal induction from the varying field does not induce voltage, as we are only interested in the effect on the junction, and that will require the lead wires to be arranged so as to cancel induced voltage.

As a matter of interest did reversing the magnet change the sign of the apparent temperature change?

Smudge
   

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Smudge,

looks like all 3 i have are the  "simply side by side" types, see pixture, so the lower drawing in your above picture is valid.

Using a stack of cylinder magnets, it shows that all those 3 positions give the same increase, no matter North or South is used.


Itsu
« Last Edit: 2020-05-29, 17:06:22 by Itsu »
   

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Buy me a cigar
Hi Itsu.

The " Gizmo " is on its way....  O0

Cheers Grum.


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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   

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Hi Graham,

great,   thanks for your help  O0

Regards Itsu
   

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Gizmo received in good order  O0


Love the wallpaper Graham ;)

Itsu
   

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Buy me a cigar
Hi Itsu.

Good to read it reached you in good order.   O0

My apologies for not replying sooner but I have an engine that's just about to " burst " into life but is being
 " difficult " at the moment.

Cheers Graham.


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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   

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Hi Graham,

no problem, i know how it is when an experiment is about to open up, very exciting!   O0

Itsu
   
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